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2021/04/12 17:34:27
Subject: An end to Era, the death of the space marine boogieman.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I'm confused? SM were never top 8 in the meta? What was that whole couple of months when Iron Hands vehicle lists were topping everything?
That only counts when it supports ones particular narrative.
2021/04/12 17:44:56
Subject: An end to Era, the death of the space marine boogieman.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I'm confused? SM were never top 8 in the meta? What was that whole couple of months when Iron Hands vehicle lists were topping everything?
That only counts when it supports ones particular narrative.
No one says that period doesn't count. It is just a different period. Us experienced players have seen it before from GW. 7.5 was just about as silly. Free transports...entire armies shooting twice...daemons essentially picking their warpstorm table per turn...extremely busted stuff. some of that marine stuff from 8.5 is exceptionally busted but so were the quinns/tau/custodians/daemons from that period too. It is irritating that dakka doesn't acknowledge this because those are the armies currently winning events with said busted rules. Yet here we are talking about the space marine boogieman. Snap back to reality! Space marines were never the boogieman of 9th edition.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
2021/04/12 17:51:44
Subject: An end to Era, the death of the space marine boogieman.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I'm confused? SM were never top 8 in the meta? What was that whole couple of months when Iron Hands vehicle lists were topping everything?
That only counts when it supports ones particular narrative.
No one says that period doesn't count. It is just a different period. Us experienced players have seen it before from GW. 7.5 was just about as silly. Free transports...entire armies shooting twice...daemons essentially picking their warpstorm table per turn...extremely busted stuff. some of that marine stuff from 8.5 is exceptionally busted but so were the quinns/tau/custodians/daemons from that period too. It is irritating that dakka doesn't acknowledge this because those are the armies currently winning events with said busted rules. Yet here we are talking about the space marine boogieman. Snap back to reality! Space marines were never the boogieman of 9th edition.
Wow... the memory people have is so short.. beofore 2.0 dex there was various G man parking lot bs.
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
the_scotsman wrote: Honestly even that doesn't bug me. Marines are meant to be shock troops, and for the longest thing the whole 'good in combat and good in shooting' thing was just a bad joke. Both a marine and an ork are anti-light infantry (S4 Ap- on both of their weaponry) and the ork is a light infantry unit, while the marine is not.
I'm only annoyed when you look at the comparison between, for example, the comparison between the prime example of "supposed to be really good at long range shooting/bad at melee" unit (Fire Warriors) or when you look at something like Genestealers/Howling Banshees which are supposed to be anti-elite troops that supposedly put none of their points into shooting, but somehow lose in melee to intercessors.
the orks also have an obvious way to win the exchange - get the charge. Or, use one of their units that's intended to be good at fighting marines, like Nobz/MANZ/Gitz etc. Boyz have always been kind of a blunt instrument, and the best counter to them has always been 'have good armor' - which obviously marines have.
Except Ork boyz are not anti-light, they are the de-facto anti-everything due to the Ork codex having a bit of a MASSIVE internal balance issue. Nobz are just not playable in a competitive environment. 17pts for what amounts to a Tactical Space marine with S5 and 1 extra attack but with none of the ridiculous rules or shooting ability and a 4+ save. The S5 doesn't make them any better vs Marines because for that price point you could take more than 2 boyz. So 4 attacks at S5 Vs 6 attacks at S4 = 0.59 wounds for the Nob and 0.66 wounds for the boyz. The biggest difference is the relative durability between the two units (boyz/nobz) with nobz having that 4+ save they are significantly more durable vs no AP 1dmg attacks, but at the moment the game is riddled with -AP weapons that do 2+dmg on average, which means that 4+ is borderline useless. Meganobz are better but still in my opinion not that great, and realistically, you don't want a unit of meganobz getting into CC with basic space marine troops, you want them going after vehicles and expensive shooting units, because a meganob is almost exactly as durable as a Gravis armored Space Marine.
This is what the data shows. You are just willfully ignorant about it. In fact. Even Gman themed armies were still quite low on the totem poll once armies you know...stopped playing out of the index. By comparison...the armies you list that were "truly bad" were incredibly low play rate to the point there is no reason to even mention it. UM will always have a high play rate because they are the poster army for the game. You are spewing a false narrative which Deadalus disproved with hard data. You have no interest in the data ofc - only your false narrative.
yes, GMAN armies were very low on the totem poll...unless you looked at Top 4 placement. Its important to note here Xeno, when we are talking about "Power level" and tiers, we are talking strictly on the competitive scene, IE power lists. Space Marines did really well in 8th until the knights became broken good, and then they were still good, but only in a support role, usually the loyal 32 and a knight backed up by some smash captains, but again, you still had pure SM lists finishing in the top 8 at Major events with 100+ players in attendance. So yet again, the SM codex was still able to produce tournament winning lists, the difference was the casual gamer could no longer rely on broken units to make his gaming experience easy mode. And yes, SM had easy mode units for most of 8th. Aggressors who could shoot twice is a wonderful example
The claims made about me in my sig get sillier and sillier every time I talk to you huh.
My point here is not that everything in the ork dex is fine and dandy and units like Nobz do not need buffs. My point is that the fact that intercessors (a unit that can only be armed with anti-light infantry weapons and S4 AP- D1 fists) can beat ork boyz (a light infantry unit) in melee if they get the charge off, doesn't bug me, because I can beat them either by getting the charge off on them myself, or by using some anti-elite unit in my army.
If I play my GSC, all my ostensibly mid-strength good AP "anti elite" melee units get splattered by Intercessors. At least with Orks, if I take my unit of Nobz with big choppas+choppas WHICH I UNDERSTAND IS AN OVERCOSTED UNIT FFS but if I take them and charge them into some intercessors, my 5-man squad takes 4 intercessors down, and the sergeant who survives returns 1 wound.
Meanwhile if I charge a unit of howling banshees, or melee-equipped harlequins, or genestealers into those same intercessors, they kill like 2, then the remaining 3 intercessors turn around and fething obliterate the whole unit in one swing.
It's still not quite balanced, and when your opponent's turn rolls around, yeah, nobz stop feeling like a 22 point unit really freaking quick when they evaporate to a stiff breeze, but at least if you get the tools in the ork army that are supposed to take down marines, and you point them at marines, they take them down reasonably well, generally thanks to the fact that we got a good deal of flat 2 and flat 3 damage weaponry "before it was cool." I am completely 10 billion percent in agreement with you that orks are in need of buffs on basically everything that's not a buggy, ghaz, boyz and mek gunz. Can we finally just nerf mek gunz and buff up everything else, what ork player actually like mek gunz, I own a 2000+ point all grots all the time army and I hate these stupid things, they're just not orky and they cost an arm and a leg.
Heck, intercessors can kill Incubi just great if they get the charge off - doesn't make Incubi not absolutely butcher intercessors for Eradicators-shooting-a-tank levels of points return percentage when they get the charge on them.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I'm confused? SM were never top 8 in the meta? What was that whole couple of months when Iron Hands vehicle lists were topping everything?
That only counts when it supports ones particular narrative.
No one says that period doesn't count. It is just a different period. Us experienced players have seen it before from GW. 7.5 was just about as silly. Free transports...entire armies shooting twice...daemons essentially picking their warpstorm table per turn...extremely busted stuff. some of that marine stuff from 8.5 is exceptionally busted but so were the quinns/tau/custodians/daemons from that period too. It is irritating that dakka doesn't acknowledge this because those are the armies currently winning events with said busted rules. Yet here we are talking about the space marine boogieman. Snap back to reality! Space marines were never the boogieman of 9th edition.
Wow... the memory people have is so short.. beofore 2.0 dex there was various G man parking lot bs.
Please don't compare people being repeatedly and demonstrably dishonest over a period of several years to people with bad memories, it's offensive to the proud traditions of my people, which I would write down if I could just find the dang pen I had a few seconds ago.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/12 18:02:58
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
2021/04/12 18:07:18
Subject: An end to Era, the death of the space marine boogieman.
BlackoCatto wrote: To me if they can fix the constant feeling that my best isn't as good as their weakest I think it would be better.
I mean....that sounds like an extreme exaggeration/example but yet again I want to point out that point for point a Space Marine intercessor will beat ork boyz in close combat if they get to swing first.
10 intercessors = 200pts, 25 boyz = 200pts
10 intercessors get 31 attacks for 20.66 hits, 10.33 wounds and against orkz that is 8.66 dead orkz, or likely 9.
The remaining 15 boyz get 45 attacks, 30 hits, 15 wounds and 5 dmg for 2 dead Primaris Marines and 1 wounded Marine, the Nob swings with 4 attacks, 2.66 hits 1.33 wounds and a .44 chance to wound 1 Marine, so likely he is fine.
orkz lose 72pts of boyz, Primaris lose 40pts, 50 if you count the half wound and 60pts if you are really unlucky and the Nob inflicts 1 dmg.
Keep in mind, that is assuming the intercessors didn't blast the orkz with their rifles before charging in. Assuming they did that, you can scratch 6-7 more boys off the list before they even get into CC.
You shorted the boyz a model, but let's drop him anyway and give the Nob a PK, because that's propa.
3 * .5* .833 * .833 * 2 = 2.1
And add the sluggas
25 * 1.167 * .167 * .5 * .333 = 0.8
And since the opponent is unlikely to burn the CP for O/W add on the original 5 wounds. That gives a total of 4 marines dead for 80 points compared to 9 Boyz for 72 points.
If Boyz swung first -- 96 * .666 * .5 * .333 = 10.6 + 2.8 (PK) + 0.8 (Sluggas) = 7 marines who would just almost auto fail morale leaving two or fewer.
Either marines advance on Boyz and shoot and charge and pummel them or Boyz advance and charge on marines and pummel them.
So it becomes a problem of delivery, support assets, terrain, and other factors to see who actually comes out on top. However one wants to view it Boyz are not really in bad shape. The big shootas could use some love though.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/04/12 18:07:44
2021/04/12 18:22:51
Subject: An end to Era, the death of the space marine boogieman.
No one says that period doesn't count. It is just a different period. Us experienced players have seen it before from GW. 7.5 was just about as silly. Free transports...entire armies shooting twice...daemons essentially picking their warpstorm table per turn...extremely busted stuff. some of that marine stuff from 8.5 is exceptionally busted but so were the quinns/tau/custodians/daemons from that period too. It is irritating that dakka doesn't acknowledge this because those are the armies currently winning events with said busted rules. Yet here we are talking about the space marine boogieman. Snap back to reality! Space marines were never the boogieman of 9th edition.
Xenos I love you man, sometimes you are just having a bad day and need something completely ridiculous to make you smile and here you are day after day
Can you name me another faction which has swept all top 4 placings in a GT or Major? How about any faction that has taken 3 out of 4?
Daedalus81 wrote: [7 marines who would just almost auto fail morale leaving two or fewer.
To be fair, those two marines have more attacks than Jain Zar (way more if they're charged or charge), as many bullets and better saves than a Dire Avengers squad (if they're armed with auto-bolt rifles), and as many wounds as most default HQ models.
It's not like 2 intercessors is ignorable, unlike 2 guardsmen or 2 boys.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/12 18:24:31
2021/04/12 18:26:18
Subject: An end to Era, the death of the space marine boogieman.
SemperMortis wrote: Xenos I love you man, sometimes you are just having a bad day and need something completely ridiculous to make you smile and here you are day after day
Can you name me another faction which has swept all top 4 placings in a GT or Major? How about any faction that has taken 3 out of 4?
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I'm confused? SM were never top 8 in the meta? What was that whole couple of months when Iron Hands vehicle lists were topping everything?
That only counts when it supports ones particular narrative.
No one says that period doesn't count. It is just a different period. Us experienced players have seen it before from GW. 7.5 was just about as silly. Free transports...entire armies shooting twice...daemons essentially picking their warpstorm table per turn...extremely busted stuff. some of that marine stuff from 8.5 is exceptionally busted but so were the quinns/tau/custodians/daemons from that period too. It is irritating that dakka doesn't acknowledge this because those are the armies currently winning events with said busted rules. Yet here we are talking about the space marine boogieman. Snap back to reality! Space marines were never the boogieman of 9th edition.
Wow... the memory people have is so short.. beofore 2.0 dex there was various G man parking lot bs.
If that list was actually good... why would it struggle a castellan knight? Reroll all wounds is literally the hardest counter to knights you can have. Yet...it stood no chance against knights because that list has 0 durability. As in it is not durable at all. Like...do you get that marine units did not even get army traits on anything but infantry until 8.5? So you are running a parking lot without army traits. You get that - that is...not good right?
No one says that period doesn't count. It is just a different period. Us experienced players have seen it before from GW. 7.5 was just about as silly. Free transports...entire armies shooting twice...daemons essentially picking their warpstorm table per turn...extremely busted stuff. some of that marine stuff from 8.5 is exceptionally busted but so were the quinns/tau/custodians/daemons from that period too. It is irritating that dakka doesn't acknowledge this because those are the armies currently winning events with said busted rules. Yet here we are talking about the space marine boogieman. Snap back to reality! Space marines were never the boogieman of 9th edition.
Xenos I love you man, sometimes you are just having a bad day and need something completely ridiculous to make you smile and here you are day after day
Can you name me another faction which has swept all top 4 placings in a GT or Major? How about any faction that has taken 3 out of 4?
What are you refereeing to? 8.5 iron hands did that...do you see me denying that? More than anything marines suffer from getting their rules first typically. Which both makes them the best and worst in literally every edition due to power creep. At least since the 7th edition blueprint came out.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/04/12 18:37:46
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
2021/04/12 18:41:13
Subject: An end to Era, the death of the space marine boogieman.
You shorted the boyz a model, but let's drop him anyway and give the Nob a PK, because that's propa.
3 * .5* .833 * .833 * 2 = 2.1
And add the sluggas
25 * 1.167 * .167 * .5 * .333 = 0.8
And since the opponent is unlikely to burn the CP for O/W add on the original 5 wounds. That gives a total of 4 marines dead for 80 points compared to 9 Boyz for 72 points.
If Boyz swung first -- 96 * .666 * .5 * .333 = 10.6 + 2.8 (PK) + 0.8 (Sluggas) = 7 marines who would just almost auto fail morale leaving two or fewer.
Either marines advance on Boyz and shoot and charge and pummel them or Boyz advance and charge on marines and pummel them.
So it becomes a problem of delivery, support assets, terrain, and other factors to see who actually comes out on top. However one wants to view it Boyz are not really in bad shape. The big shootas could use some love though.
Nope, I added the extra boy in as a nob and calculated his dmg potential as well because im amazing 15 boyz + 1 nob = 16 + 9 dead boyz = 25 = 200pts I didn't give the Nob any weapon upgrades because i was trying to keep the math exactly even at 200 vs 200pts. If you add in a PK you give the Orkz a 5% advantage in points over the Marines and there isn't a comparable upgrade to give the Intercessors to even it out.
The one mistake I did make was I forgot to factor in the Sgt's Free SM Chainsword which ups his attacks by 1 and gives his attacks -1AP so no saves allowed. So it would be 27 normal attacks, 18 hits, 9 wounds and 7.5 dead boyz from the Intercessors and the Sgt would get 4 attacks, 2.66 hits, 1.33 wounds for 1.33 dead Orkz, so it would be about 8.83 dead orkz, or still, basically 9.
I do want to point out though that I didn't allow the Marines to shoot even once at the Orkz, even though with a 30' range its basically impossible barring "Da Jump" or Tellyporta strike for the Intercessors to not at least get 1 shooting phase in against the boyz. And 10 Intercessors plinking away at boyz = 6-7 dead orkz in 1 turn.
Also, the premise was that Intercessors can beat ork boyz in CC if they get the charge off. I'm well aware that if boyz get the charge off they come out on top usually, especially if they can keep their numbers over 20 (dumbest buff in the game).
SemperMortis wrote: Xenos I love you man, sometimes you are just having a bad day and need something completely ridiculous to make you smile and here you are day after day
Can you name me another faction which has swept all top 4 placings in a GT or Major? How about any faction that has taken 3 out of 4?
Space marines were never the boogieman of 9th edition.
Xenos I love you man, sometimes you are just having a bad day and need something completely ridiculous to make you smile and here you are day after day
Can you name me another faction which has swept all top 4 placings in a GT or Major? How about any faction that has taken 3 out of 4?
What are you refereeing to? 8.5 iron hands did that...do you see me denying that? More than anything marines suffer from getting their rules first typically. Which both makes them the best and worst in literally every edition due to power creep. At least since the 7th edition blueprint came out.
I highlighted what I was referring to since you and daed seemed confused.
And I just want to reiterate this. At no point, literally NO POINT were Space Marines ever "worst" in ...god I can't even remember when. Definitely since 4th edition. You can sit here and go "but meh win/loss ratio!" until you are blue in the face. The WORST faction CAN NOT PLACE at majors and GTs on a regular basis and be considered the WORST faction in the game.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/04/12 18:47:24
You are in fact wrong. The worst army can win events if you just keep trying. Any army wins if it rolls hot or its opponents roll like dog. When it happens it is a huge outlier and it is clear from that data that it shouldn't happen often and it doesn't. Being as marines are the most played faction (by a long shot) they are going to have the most outliers as well. Cause in the end - we are only looking at the end result with tournament results.
This is also. Undisputable. Would you seriously argue that an army with a 40% WR is good? LOL? Come on I wanna see you say it.
BTW...We were talking 8th - 8.5 - and 9th. All at once. You have to read the context of all the discussion.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/12 18:58:26
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
2021/04/12 19:04:12
Subject: An end to Era, the death of the space marine boogieman.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I'm confused? SM were never top 8 in the meta? What was that whole couple of months when Iron Hands vehicle lists were topping everything?
That only counts when it supports ones particular narrative.
No one says that period doesn't count. It is just a different period. Us experienced players have seen it before from GW. 7.5 was just about as silly. Free transports...entire armies shooting twice...daemons essentially picking their warpstorm table per turn...extremely busted stuff. some of that marine stuff from 8.5 is exceptionally busted but so were the quinns/tau/custodians/daemons from that period too. It is irritating that dakka doesn't acknowledge this because those are the armies currently winning events with said busted rules. Yet here we are talking about the space marine boogieman. Snap back to reality! Space marines were never the boogieman of 9th edition.
Ooh, struck a nerve, did I? That was mostly a joke. but....
As to your claim? bs.
I've read plenty of threads on this very site where people have claimed everything/anything, picked & chose their stats/examples, conveniently ignored things to make their point, demonstrated astoundingly bad math skills, and said contradictory things in different threads.
And then there's the gibberish I hear at the local shops.
Someone will make the claim.
"Us experienced players"~~~ Yup, been doing this awhile. I've seen decades worth of GW rules wonkiness myself. More than some of you "experienced players" I bet.
2021/04/12 19:10:22
Subject: An end to Era, the death of the space marine boogieman.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I'm confused? SM were never top 8 in the meta? What was that whole couple of months when Iron Hands vehicle lists were topping everything?
That only counts when it supports ones particular narrative.
No one says that period doesn't count. It is just a different period. Us experienced players have seen it before from GW. 7.5 was just about as silly. Free transports...entire armies shooting twice...daemons essentially picking their warpstorm table per turn...extremely busted stuff. some of that marine stuff from 8.5 is exceptionally busted but so were the quinns/tau/custodians/daemons from that period too. It is irritating that dakka doesn't acknowledge this because those are the armies currently winning events with said busted rules. Yet here we are talking about the space marine boogieman. Snap back to reality! Space marines were never the boogieman of 9th edition.
Ooh, struck a nerve, did I? That was mostly a joke. but....
As to your claim? bs.
I've read plenty of threads on this very site where people have claimed everything/anything, picked & chose their stats/examples, conveniently ignored things to make their point, demonstrated astoundingly bad math skills, and said contradictory things in different threads.
And then there's the gibberish I hear at the local shops.
Someone will make the claim.
"Us experienced players"~~~ Yup, been doing this awhile. I've seen decades worth of GW rules wonkiness myself. More than some of you "experienced players" I bet.
What nerve did you strike? Maybe you imagine I am fuming or something but I am actually elated.
What am I ignoring to make my point? Bad math skills? Explain pls.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/12 19:12:04
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
2021/04/12 19:17:43
Subject: An end to Era, the death of the space marine boogieman.
SemperMortis wrote: I didn't give the Nob any weapon upgrades because i was trying to keep the math exactly even at 200 vs 200pts. If you add in a PK you give the Orkz a 5% advantage in points over the Marines and there isn't a comparable upgrade to give the Intercessors to even it out.
Now if only an intercessor sergeant had a 10 pt weapon option between a powersword and thunder hammer... something less like a claw and more like a 'hand'...
A big 'if' in the analysis is assuming that you can get 30 odd orks close enough to the unit so that all of them can attack
2021/04/12 19:25:35
Subject: An end to Era, the death of the space marine boogieman.
SemperMortis wrote: I didn't give the Nob any weapon upgrades because i was trying to keep the math exactly even at 200 vs 200pts. If you add in a PK you give the Orkz a 5% advantage in points over the Marines and there isn't a comparable upgrade to give the Intercessors to even it out.
Now if only an intercessor sergeant had a 10 pt weapon option between a powersword and thunder hammer... something less like a claw and more like a 'hand'...
A big 'if' in the analysis is assuming that you can get 30 odd orks close enough to the unit so that all of them can attack
Against 10 marines? Not terribly hard. 5 is a different story.
2021/04/12 20:08:42
Subject: An end to Era, the death of the space marine boogieman.
SemperMortis wrote: I didn't give the Nob any weapon upgrades because i was trying to keep the math exactly even at 200 vs 200pts. If you add in a PK you give the Orkz a 5% advantage in points over the Marines and there isn't a comparable upgrade to give the Intercessors to even it out.
Now if only an intercessor sergeant had a 10 pt weapon option between a powersword and thunder hammer... something less like a claw and more like a 'hand'...
A big 'if' in the analysis is assuming that you can get 30 odd orks close enough to the unit so that all of them can attack
Against 10 marines? Not terribly hard. 5 is a different story.
How so?
The changes for the fight phase mean it's fighting 2 tightly packed rows. 30 orks = 15 orks front row, 15 second.
With the 9E unit coherency rules (as the squad in>5 each model has to be within 2" of at least 2 other models from the unit) those 10 intercessors could easily be in 2 rows of 5 in quite tightly packed group as opposed to a single row of 10 that just meets the coherency requirements.
I don't see how 10 intercessors automatically presents a much different layout of models for the orks to engage with than that a squad of 5.
2021/04/12 20:17:37
Subject: An end to Era, the death of the space marine boogieman.
SemperMortis wrote: I didn't give the Nob any weapon upgrades because i was trying to keep the math exactly even at 200 vs 200pts. If you add in a PK you give the Orkz a 5% advantage in points over the Marines and there isn't a comparable upgrade to give the Intercessors to even it out.
Now if only an intercessor sergeant had a 10 pt weapon option between a powersword and thunder hammer... something less like a claw and more like a 'hand'...
A big 'if' in the analysis is assuming that you can get 30 odd orks close enough to the unit so that all of them can attack
Against 10 marines? Not terribly hard. 5 is a different story.
How so?
The changes for the fight phase mean it's fighting 2 tightly packed rows. 30 orks = 15 orks front row, 15 second.
With the 9E unit coherency rules (as the squad in>5 each model has to be within 2" of at least 2 other models from the unit) those 10 intercessors could easily be in 2 rows of 5 in quite tightly packed group as opposed to a single row of 10 that just meets the coherency requirements.
I don't see how 10 intercessors automatically presents a much different layout of models for the orks to engage with than that a squad of 5.
Marines vs ork boys might be kind of a draw but how do ork boys do when engaging other hordes in melee? I feel like their 4 attacks each for 8 points probably goes father than the marines 3 str 4 attacks for 20 points. Oh yeah...because it does. Seems very much to be working as intended when the 200 point elite infantry squad meets a unit they are literally designed to kill and sustain.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
2021/04/12 20:41:41
Subject: An end to Era, the death of the space marine boogieman.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Personally I just Boyz to have W2 so they feel tougher. They'd not need a giant point increase either!
They'd need to go to about 12ish points for 2 wounds.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
2021/04/12 21:03:41
Subject: An end to Era, the death of the space marine boogieman.
Bosskelot wrote: Yeah, Marines were never really bottom tier in 8th and still managed to post some strong results at the height of Castellan and Aeldari soup tyranny. By comparison you had Necrons and GK who were truly godawful and never really posted strong results at all throughout the edition until 2019 where points drops and PA (for GK) made some impact (along with the Necron builds naturally having some good counterplay to Marines)
Of course this is where I expect some ACKSHULLY person to come in and try to argue that since it was only Guilliman gunlines or RG lists it doesn't count somehow.
This is what the data shows. You are just willfully ignorant about it. In fact. Even Gman themed armies were still quite low on the totem poll once armies you know...stopped playing out of the index. By comparison...the armies you list that were "truly bad" were incredibly low play rate to the point there is no reason to even mention it. UM will always have a high play rate because they are the poster army for the game. You are spewing a false narrative which Deadalus disproved with hard data. You have no interest in the data ofc - only your false narrative.
They won tournaments and placed highly even deep into 2018.
I've made endless posts about how winrate alone is misleading and one of the reasons for that is prevalence. More players = more mirror matchups, more players also = a higher percentage of bad players piloting the faction. All of these serve to drag an absolute winrate down. On the flipside we have Necrons after their 9th codex drop where for a while they were sitting at a 65% winrate.... and yet were winning 0 events and even failing to dominate top 4's or top 10's. They were considered "high" tier but nowhere near top despite having at one point a higher winrate than any army in the game because at the end of the day it doesn't matter what your winrate is if you fail to actually win events or place highly.
The fact is, during 8th and long after many codexes were out, plenty of good players were taking Marine armies to events and going 5-0 or 4-1 or 4-2. You wanna know why those other armies had a low play rate? Because they weren't any fething good. Lawrence Baker was the only committed GK player and he only ever managed to win a heavily narrative-focused tournament with them (or it may have been someone else, regardless some GK list won No Retreat 2018). For actual GT's and majors he was playing Drukhari and left the GK on the shelf until their PA release.
Granted this does not mean that Marines were a tip top tier army during 2018 and the first half of 2019, but they certainly were not the worst.
Nazi punks feth off
2021/04/12 22:06:34
Subject: An end to Era, the death of the space marine boogieman.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Personally I just Boyz to have W2 so they feel tougher. They'd not need a giant point increase either!
They'd need to go to about 12ish points for 2 wounds.
Not with the non-armor save they got. 10 points is reasonable for a singular T4 6+ W2 model. That's 5 points per wound.
And is still a 25% increase-more than Marines had for their second wound.
Yeah and if a model that was 2 points was given a second wound and raised to 4 points that's a 100% point increase. Your point is what?
That Marines underpayed for their second wound.
I don't think bumping an Ork by 25% or even possibly more for a second wound would be unwarranted-I do think that Marines payed too little for their second wound, since while it's not a straight 100% durability buff, it's still a VERY significant increase.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
2021/04/12 22:58:02
Subject: An end to Era, the death of the space marine boogieman.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Personally I just Boyz to have W2 so they feel tougher. They'd not need a giant point increase either!
They'd need to go to about 12ish points for 2 wounds.
Not with the non-armor save they got. 10 points is reasonable for a singular T4 6+ W2 model. That's 5 points per wound.
And is still a 25% increase-more than Marines had for their second wound.
Yeah and if a model that was 2 points was given a second wound and raised to 4 points that's a 100% point increase. Your point is what?
That Marines underpayed for their second wound.
I don't think bumping an Ork by 25% or even possibly more for a second wound would be unwarranted-I do think that Marines payed too little for their second wound, since while it's not a straight 100% durability buff, it's still a VERY significant increase.
You're going under the assumption that Intercessors are some magically durable unit at their current price point. Manlet Marines getting the W2 for the small increase was fine simply because they were already so close in price to begin with. If Intercessors aren't super magical (and they aren't), the Tactical Marine being only a couple points cheaper is fine.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2021/04/12 23:08:22
Subject: Re:An end to Era, the death of the space marine boogieman.
Bosskelot wrote: Yeah, Marines were never really bottom tier in 8th and still managed to post some strong results at the height of Castellan and Aeldari soup tyranny. By comparison you had Necrons and GK who were truly godawful and never really posted strong results at all throughout the edition until 2019 where points drops and PA (for GK) made some impact (along with the Necron builds naturally having some good counterplay to Marines)
Of course this is where I expect some ACKSHULLY person to come in and try to argue that since it was only Guilliman gunlines or RG lists it doesn't count somehow.
This is what the data shows. You are just willfully ignorant about it. In fact. Even Gman themed armies were still quite low on the totem poll once armies you know...stopped playing out of the index. By comparison...the armies you list that were "truly bad" were incredibly low play rate to the point there is no reason to even mention it. UM will always have a high play rate because they are the poster army for the game. You are spewing a false narrative which Deadalus disproved with hard data. You have no interest in the data ofc - only your false narrative.
They won tournaments and placed highly even deep into 2018.
I've made endless posts about how winrate alone is misleading and one of the reasons for that is prevalence. More players = more mirror matchups, more players also = a higher percentage of bad players piloting the faction. All of these serve to drag an absolute winrate down. On the flipside we have Necrons after their 9th codex drop where for a while they were sitting at a 65% winrate.... and yet were winning 0 events and even failing to dominate top 4's or top 10's. They were considered "high" tier but nowhere near top despite having at one point a higher winrate than any army in the game because at the end of the day it doesn't matter what your winrate is if you fail to actually win events or place highly.
The fact is, during 8th and long after many codexes were out, plenty of good players were taking Marine armies to events and going 5-0 or 4-1 or 4-2. You wanna know why those other armies had a low play rate? Because they weren't any fething good. Lawrence Baker was the only committed GK player and he only ever managed to win a heavily narrative-focused tournament with them (or it may have been someone else, regardless some GK list won No Retreat 2018). For actual GT's and majors he was playing Drukhari and left the GK on the shelf until their PA release.
Granted this does not mean that Marines were a tip top tier army during 2018 and the first half of 2019, but they certainly were not the worst.
You cant reason with these people. To them Marines were/are trash tier no matter what. Unless.. The only thing that would count as OP/strong is if the game ends as soon as the minatures are put on the table and you say "haha! My marines are more powerful than anything ever anywhere haha! I win! haha" and the other person agrees and auto concedes because that's a rule.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/12 23:08:49
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
9 point ork boyz with 2 wounds feel fine. The 6+ save is like not having a save. The problem would be with the 5++ mek shields you could give them, of course.
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
2021/04/12 23:29:52
Subject: An end to Era, the death of the space marine boogieman.
Eldar- 4436 pts
