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Made in es
Inspiring SDF-1 Bridge Officer






I mean, the original one's visual effects are still top of the class nowadays, however many years after, and it seems that the second one only went further.

I agree on that digital effects usually age first and the most dramatically, but... there's effects and effects. There's also the fact that the series seamlessly mixes visual and practical, and build one upon the other.

From a technical POV, the movies are prodigious.
   
Made in gb
Junior Officer with Laspistol





The Shire(s)

Well, at some point visual effects will reach a level of fidelity that is indistinguishable from reality to the human eye, with only fantasy elements being something that can be easily picked up as CGI. The same is true of graphics quality- beyond a certain resolution, the human eye will not be able to detect any further detail compared to reality.

Once that point is reached (particularly once it is affordable), CGI effects in films will have much longer legs, with only creative choices affecting longevity. Avatar may well be approaching this, which could account for how well its visuals have aged.

 ChargerIIC wrote:
If algae farm paste with a little bit of your grandfather in it isn't Grimdark I don't know what is.
 
   
Made in es
Inspiring SDF-1 Bridge Officer






One thing that usually gives away CGI visual effects is weight and inertia, as many times they look weightless and makes them stand out like a sore thumb.

One particularly clear example would be the comparison between the visual effects from Pacific Rim 1 and Pacific Rim 2. It's simply like night and day.
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut






ccs wrote:
BS. If you want to try & measure the effects of a film on culture? Try Star Wars. Just the original from 1977.
Sure, it made crazy $$ for it's day. But it also:
*gave us characters, imagery, dialogue, & music that'll still be remembered come 2077
*greatly affected what types of films (and TV) were produced in its wake,
*affected the entire FX industry tech wise
*drastically affected the careers of its stars
*radically changed how movies were merchandised
*Propelled ILM to the top of the FX industry for many years to come
*Lifted the toy company Kenner to the height of it's industry - which in turn affected both toy manufacturing & big retail.
*People remember where, when, & with whom they saw this movie for the 1st time.
*and into the '80s? Go look up "Star Wars" as related to the Cold War.

Avatar?
Yes,it made a crap ton of $$
No doubt it also affected the tech of FX/CGI (Cameron's films are known to do that)
Beyond that? Nil.

I agree with all those points, but have one caveat to add, which is basically my whole and only point.

In 1977, when talking to people about Star Wars, everything I've read in this thread about how dull, uninspired et., etc. all this was said about Star Wars.

Star Wars is just Flash Gordon, the plot stolen from The Hidden Fortress, the actors think the dialogue sucks etc., etc..

But Star Wars changed how movies were financed, and upped the standards for visual effects, and here 46 years later everybody agrees about how important it is, and how culturally significant it has become.

Avatar is the Star Wars of the 21st Century. It's trajectory is different, and it may yet fail, which is why I say only time will tell.

Trying to discuss Avatar without some reflection on one's assumptions that define the box of one's thinking is difficult and complex. One has to have an argumentative nature to go against the majority, but one thing we know about majority thought is that time and again is that it is a poor measure of anything much.

Ashley
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http://panther6actual.blogspot.co.uk/ 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Paint it Pink wrote:
ccs wrote:
BS. If you want to try & measure the effects of a film on culture? Try Star Wars. Just the original from 1977.
Sure, it made crazy $$ for it's day. But it also:
*gave us characters, imagery, dialogue, & music that'll still be remembered come 2077
*greatly affected what types of films (and TV) were produced in its wake,
*affected the entire FX industry tech wise
*drastically affected the careers of its stars
*radically changed how movies were merchandised
*Propelled ILM to the top of the FX industry for many years to come
*Lifted the toy company Kenner to the height of it's industry - which in turn affected both toy manufacturing & big retail.
*People remember where, when, & with whom they saw this movie for the 1st time.
*and into the '80s? Go look up "Star Wars" as related to the Cold War.

Avatar?
Yes,it made a crap ton of $$
No doubt it also affected the tech of FX/CGI (Cameron's films are known to do that)
Beyond that? Nil.

I agree with all those points, but have one caveat to add, which is basically my whole and only point.

In 1977, when talking to people about Star Wars, everything I've read in this thread about how dull, uninspired et., etc. all this was said about Star Wars.

Star Wars is just Flash Gordon, the plot stolen from The Hidden Fortress, the actors think the dialogue sucks etc., etc..

But Star Wars changed how movies were financed, and upped the standards for visual effects, and here 46 years later everybody agrees about how important it is, and how culturally significant it has become.

Avatar is the Star Wars of the 21st Century. It's trajectory is different, and it may yet fail, which is why I say only time will tell.

Trying to discuss Avatar without some reflection on one's assumptions that define the box of one's thinking is difficult and complex. One has to have an argumentative nature to go against the majority, but one thing we know about majority thought is that time and again is that it is a poor measure of anything much.


I think Avatar had the potential to be a new Star Wars in terms of cultural impact, but where it differs is in merchandising and it’s sequels came out in relatively quick succession, striking while the iron was hot as it were.

Had Star Wars not had the merchandise or the sequels I expect it wouldn’t have the legacy it enjoys.
   
Made in us
Legendary Master of the Chapter





SoCal

First of all, people weren’t saying that about Star Wars in 1977. Let me know when someone writes an Avatar based disco hit (or dubstep I suppose) or names a weapon system after it.

Some movies really are remembered more fondly for their effects over time—such as Harryhausen movies. Jurassic park is often held up for its effects, although it also has great writing, directing and acting.


Good effects are not memorable effects. People remember Krull for the glaive, the flying fire mares, and the cave spider…none of which are great effects. The music really helps there, too.

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Paint it Pink wrote:
I agree with all those points, but have one caveat to add, which is basically my whole and only point.

In 1977, when talking to people about Star Wars, everything I've read in this thread about how dull, uninspired et., etc. all this was said about Star Wars.


One can always find a few critics who will deride any classic on its release. This proves nothing other than that there's always a dissenting opinion.

But the cultural phenomenon of Star Wars destroyed Avatar as everyone alive back then can attest. Darth Vader became the new icon of evil. Who, exactly even is the villain of Avatar?

And yes, disco Star Wars theme, the soundtrack albums actually sold out, t-shirts, and for Halloween, Darth Vader costumes as far as the eye could see - and that lasted for years, even before the sequel. I remember in 1979 that the teachers had to put tape in the Dark Vader masks to keep the kids straight because almost half the school was wearing them.

One can say savvy merchandizing played a role in this, but I'll point out that the sequel toys languished on the shelves and went to the clearance bin because the movies just were not as popular. Star Wars was obviously derivative, but it was packaged in a fun and unique way. It was arguably the first truly upbeat space movie and its message - of plucky rebels winning against a monolithic Empire - was just what people wanted to hear.

Contrast that with 2001, or Logan's Run or Space 1999, or the Forbidden Planet, Planet of the Apes, etc. Mostly gloom and doom or overly artistic. Star Wars was a blast of fresh, joyous air.

Avatar by contrast, is yet another retelling of the evils of colonialism, and while its visually stimulating, I don't think it's added a single thing to the conversation. Certainly the cast was unremarkable.

That's why it just doesn't resonate.


Want a better way to do fantasy/historical miniatures battles?  Try Conqueror: Fields of Victory.

Do you like Star Wars but find the prequels and sequels disappointing?  Man of Destiny is the book series for you.

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Made in es
Inspiring SDF-1 Bridge Officer






Commissar von Toussaint wrote:
 Paint it Pink wrote:
I agree with all those points, but have one caveat to add, which is basically my whole and only point.

In 1977, when talking to people about Star Wars, everything I've read in this thread about how dull, uninspired et., etc. all this was said about Star Wars.


One can always find a few critics who will deride any classic on its release. This proves nothing other than that there's always a dissenting opinion.

But the cultural phenomenon of Star Wars destroyed Avatar as everyone alive back then can attest. Darth Vader became the new icon of evil. Who, exactly even is the villain of Avatar?

I mean, Quaritch is one of the best things of both movies, you know... and certainly one of the most memorable, at least to me.

Then again, I like the actor too.
   
Made in us
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain






A Protoss colony world

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Good effects are not memorable effects. People remember Krull for the glaive, the flying fire mares, and the cave spider…none of which are great effects. The music really helps there, too.

Funny that you mention the music, because both Avatar and Krull had James Horner as composer. Hence why both soundtracks slap.

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 Mr_Rose wrote:
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Made in us
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SoCal

I’ll take the Krull soundtrack any day. As much as Horner liked to rip himself off, I don’t recall anything in Avatar to compare to Ride of the Fire Mares, let alone his scores for Star Trek TWOK and TSFE.

   
Made in fi
Longtime Dakkanaut




I think some people here are somewhat misguided in analyzing why 'Avatars' are so popular. It's not just technical brilliance, it is how it is used. 'Avatar' brings alive the planet Pandora, not completely unlike than say, a quality nature document. Compare 'Avatar' with Endor sequence from 'Return of the Jedi'. They're in many ways a same story. But Endor is shown as clearly just no different than a big forest on our own, boring Earth. And its inhabitants, the Ewoks, are simple, comical variation of 'pygmy native' cliche with no distinguishing traits other than their visual design.

By contrast, Pandora has weird plants and critters everywhere. Even the terrain itself is often shown radically different and exotic (like the floating islands region). And the inhabitants, the Navi, are shown having complicated, thought-out culture and physique. Above all, everything on Pandora is really really beautiful. Remember how when the movie came out, it was reported some people felt 'Avatar depression' as their own world felt so ugly and uninteresting after briefly visiting Pandora. People like pretty things. Only few movies manage similar effect - LotR trilogy is perhaps most notable. It's the effect of really feeling you're watching some beautiful alien world, and not just jungles of Florida with some dudes in rubber suits thrown in. Even though in basic terms you could do the movie just as well that way.

Now it's true that 'Avatar' doesn't really have very memorable characters or dialogue, and the basic story is quite predictable and done before. But all of it is still done quite well, with all kind of little touches here & there making it all 'a cut above', and thus these elements don't end up letting the visuals down. They're there, and not bad enough that they would start to actively annoy you (By contrast, the sequel does feel somewhat like it wears out its welcome once you get past the visual marvels). The strong sides of the movie do not lend easily to meme-cry or merchandise, it's true. It also means 'Avatars' are not something kids are likely to start obsessing over: lot of the 'cultural phenomenon' films or shows seem to be something you see as chilrden or teens, and then you can reminisce them in adulthood especially if you have kids of your own. 'Avatars' by contrast have little for kids, despite their relatively benign ratings, making them much less likely to appeal over generations, like Star Wars.

As per Wikipedia:
"Despite the film's financial and critical success, some journalists have questioned Avatar's cultural impact.[b] In 2014, Scott Mendelson of Forbes said the film had been "all but forgotten", citing the lack of merchandising, a fandom for the film, or any long-enduring media franchise, and further stated that he believed most general audiences could not remember any of the film's details, such as the names of its characters or actors in the cast."

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2023/06/02 00:15:33


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Backfire wrote:
..... clearly just no different than a big forest on our own, boring Earth.


Tell me you don't like National Geographic without telling me you don't like National Geographic.
   
Made in fi
Longtime Dakkanaut




Hmmm...I haven't seen that many NG documents. In general I prefer BBC style, although they also have ventured too far into silly side. '90s BBC was the bestest.

Mr Vetock, give back my Multi-tracker! 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Backfire wrote:
'Avatars' by contrast have little for kids, despite their relatively benign ratings, making them much less likely to appeal over generations, like Star Wars.


That is a big part of it. There is no "hero's journey," and kids can't related to a jaded war veteran upset about macroeconomic strategies that rely on resource exploitation.

They can relate a young farm boy and a princess who gang up with a couple of outlaws to save the universe. They can relate to kids who discover E.T. while playing D&D.

But it's more than that - the reason certain films endure is that as those kids grow up, they now see themselves in the adult roles. Mark Hamill said that when he went to the 1997 re-release of Star Wars he saw Luke in his kids, not himself. He was more drawn to Obi-wan.

That's also why the Airbender Avatar has such cultural strength - the parents could enjoy it as a kids show (and think back to their own struggles of growing up), but also relate to the adult characters. Kids who saw it's original run are now likewise taking a second look at the grown-up perspective.

A ton of failed remakes have proven that nostalgia can only get you so far. Star Wars itself has shown that if you rely on that and fail to create interesting and relatable characters, the whole enterprise will fail.

Want a better way to do fantasy/historical miniatures battles?  Try Conqueror: Fields of Victory.

Do you like Star Wars but find the prequels and sequels disappointing?  Man of Destiny is the book series for you.

My 2nd edition Warhammer 40k resource page. Check out my other stuff at https://www.ahlloyd.com 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

I don't think kids can only relate to a "hero's journey" story mechanic with kids to directly relate too. Heck the overwhelming majority of kids can't even relate to farming lifestyle as many grow up deep within cities.

There are also plenty of kids films that don't feature kids as the focal characters. Not to mention many video games.


I think its simply that Avatar didn't have a well built story. The same reason it didn't work for kids is the same reason it didn't work for adults - adults are just more likely to be able to identify and put it into words. Or bother doing it on a warhammer forum


I don't think the age of a character is as important as the actual story itself.

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Made in si
Foxy Wildborne







Hot take: Because it's so blatantly (some say clumsily) anti white imperialst that it's impossible for populations living on the spoils of white imperialism to divorce the message from the entertainment and enjoy the latter. So they have to forget the whole package.

Some proof of this is that an absolutely massive part on the internet unironically cheered for the caricature psycho genocidal military guy.

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The Shire(s)

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Hot take: Because it's so blatantly (some say clumsily) anti white imperialst that it's impossible for populations living on the spoils of white imperialism to divorce the message from the entertainment and enjoy the latter. So they have to forget the whole package.

Some proof of this is that an absolutely massive part on the internet unironically cheered for the caricature psycho genocidal military guy.

There could be some truth to that, at least in part. People do often avoid knowledge that gives them doxastic anxiety because they don't want to face having to change stuff in their life. I know I do it with the meat industry because I find it hard to give up eating meat.

 ChargerIIC wrote:
If algae farm paste with a little bit of your grandfather in it isn't Grimdark I don't know what is.
 
   
Made in gb
Preparing the Invasion of Terra






Nah people are just stupid. How many people watch Starship Troopers and love the soldiers despite it clearly being a massive satire, something that was done on purpose because the director felt the original book was far too much of a love letter to militarism and authoritarianism.
Give people cool visuals with military doodads and they'll eat it up.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/06/03 11:18:28


 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

Yah and kids are often totally blind to the whole "colonialist" things. Heck even that is, I'd argue, a generational thing that has crept in over the last couple of decades and grown.

Plus its not a universal thing at all, I suspect its felt far more strongly in some countries over others.


I think many many people have a healthy ability to separate fiction from reality. They can cheer for Dr Evil without having to actually believe in being evil and nasty and horrible to other people.

It's exactly the same way we can play wargames; how we can blast whole planets apart in Stellaris or control an army of blood crazed cannibals on the tabletop.

You don't have to be a cannibal to play flesheaters

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 Gert wrote:
Nah people are just stupid. How many people watch Starship Troopers and love the soldiers despite it clearly being a massive satire, something that was done on purpose because the director felt the original book was far too much of a love letter to militarism and authoritarianism.
Give people cool visuals with military doodads and they'll eat it up.


Oh come on, Doogie Houser as a Gestapo Mind-Bender was hilarious. People called it Starship Troopers 90210 because it was so silly.

Also, good-looking young people in the co-ed showers. Always a crowd pleaser.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Hot take: Because it's so blatantly (some say clumsily) anti white imperialst that it's impossible for populations living on the spoils of white imperialism to divorce the message from the entertainment and enjoy the latter. So they have to forget the whole package.


Or they're bored with being asked to do penance for the sins of their great-great-great-grandparents. Being blamed for the sins of the British Empire probably doesn't play well with the descendants of penniless Irish immigrants.

Some proof of this is that an absolutely massive part on the internet unironically cheered for the caricature psycho genocidal military guy.


Well yeah, if you can't ever be actually forgiven, what's the point in saying sorry?

The point is that Avatar's plot is primarily political, and politics are not something people relate to on a human level.

I have no idea what Han Solo felt about budgetary policy (though I gather he's an opponent of excise taxes), but I like his style and rebellious attitude. It is of no relevance whether Indiana Jones voted for FDR in 1932, because his is a story of adventure.

Star Trek always had some political messages, but they took a back seat to the personalities of the characters. It's interesting that as it gets more political, the characters recede and as a result, the audience dwindles.

Avatar's graphics and sound were a feast for the senses, so people could look past a weak plot and cardboard characters. No need to go any deeper than that.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2023/06/03 13:28:42


Want a better way to do fantasy/historical miniatures battles?  Try Conqueror: Fields of Victory.

Do you like Star Wars but find the prequels and sequels disappointing?  Man of Destiny is the book series for you.

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Made in gb
Preparing the Invasion of Terra






I'm not saying it isn't good, far from as it is one of my favourite movies but it is not subtle about its criticisms and satirical nature yet people still think the humans are good guys because they have flashy guns, spiffy music, and the bugs are scary.
   
Made in de
Huge Bone Giant






 Gert wrote:
I'm not saying it isn't good, far from as it is one of my favourite movies but it is not subtle about its criticisms and satirical nature yet people still think the humans are good guys because they have flashy guns, spiffy music, and the bugs are scary.


In my opinion Starship Troopers is so overtly satirical to actually get a critical look at the fascist regime to work in the first place. It's heavy on the counterbalance because people will allow for a lot of bad in their good guys if the alternative is getting eaten by alien space monsters. In a way what you're shown in the movie is utopian, all of mankind united in a common struggle. That's an ideal to a lot of people who in real life, for lack of alien space monsters, witness time and again that mankind's worst enemy is mankind. That's a solved problem in Starship Troopers. There isn't much you can do but shine a floodlight on the exact execution of that unity if you want people to reflect on whether it's all that great because the reason for it is such an existential threat. I doubt getting into political dissent and resistance to the fascist state would suffice to get people to question the regime because it always comes back to the question of how not to get eaten by alien space monsters. Even if you are fully aware of the workings of fascism, in the situation the movie presents the threat is real and not played up for propaganda. That gets a lot of people who would usually be otherwise inclined to mellow on extreme measures.

As far as I remember (for what little that's worth*) Avatar doesn't try to get into the human perspective at all beyond the basic premise of "planet has stuff humans need, all other considerations secondary". You're asked to take the blue people perspective and consider the humans who don't do that the bad guys. You're not shown the situation on Earth and given the chance to ask yourself whether exploitation of Pandora might be justified and whether the execution could or should be handled differently. Starship Troopers puts you into that position. Avatar, quite deliberately, doesn't. That makes a hell of a difference to how much you can and want to engage with the setting.


* Since I keep coming back to this thread I should probably watch Avatar again. It's been a while and the movie just isn't memorable enough to engage in a detailed discussion after a while.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/06/03 14:33:03


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SoCal

It could also just be as simple as the Colonel is the onky actor with screen charisma.

   
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Hangin' with Gork & Mork






 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
It could also just be as simple as the Colonel is the onky actor with screen charisma.


Chonky?
Honky?
Okay?
Monkey?

But yes Stephen Lang is a good actor.

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SoCal

Autocorrect failed me when I needed her most.


I don’t know about chonky, but he thick.

   
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Mexico

Commissar von Toussaint wrote:

I have no idea what Han Solo felt about budgetary policy (though I gather he's an opponent of excise taxes), but I like his style and rebellious attitude.

I find this funny because Star Wars was (and still is) extremely political. I mean George Lucas couldn't shut up about politics to the point he made a trade dispute a critical plot point in one movie and had characters talk about political systems in the next one.

And while you could definitely argue that the quality of Star Wars declined when Lucas was free to shove politics into every inch of the plot, the Clone Wars still live rent free in the heads of at least one entire generation.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/06/03 21:49:13


 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

Honestly the political side of it all is really important once you start to get to the formation of the Empire. In the first 3 films we kind of knew there was a senate and an Emperor, but we really didn't have much functional idea for how it was setup. Heck you could easily have assumed the Senate was 10 people around a regular meeting table (ergo similar to how we saw meetings on the Death Star).

The politics of Starwars is integral to seeing how things fell and all.

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The Shire(s)

Also, rebels fighting an authoritarian empire is a political stance.

 ChargerIIC wrote:
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 Tyran wrote:

I find this funny because Star Wars was (and still is) extremely political. I mean George Lucas couldn't shut up about politics to the point he made a trade dispute a critical plot point in one movie and had characters talk about political systems in the next one.


No it wasn't. It was very apolitical. All you knew was that the Dark Side was running the Empire and the Light Side was fighting back. "Good guys vs Bad guys" can't get more blatant.

Lucas spouted off about politics because he hated how conservatives embraced it and had to save face - and he waited until after the third movie has finished it run before running his mouth.

And while you could definitely argue that the quality of Star Wars declined when Lucas was free to shove politics into every inch of the plot, the Clone Wars still live rent free in the heads of at least one entire generation.


It absolutely declined because the politics made no sense. The characters were wooden, the plots convoluted and then Disney said: "hold my beer" and made the rubble bounce.

By the way, if you want to see a movie that does a great job of dealing with corporate/colonial militarism, Aliens is the perfect example - and that film has had massive cultural impact. We're probably here because of it - space marines, proto-tyranids, Ripley's combo-flamer and the fact that it set the entire tone of the now ubiquitous "Hero stuck on space station with improvised weapons" concept.

Heavy social commentary on the military-industrial complex, but what sells it are the characters and the incredibly quotable dialog.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2023/06/04 12:57:28


Want a better way to do fantasy/historical miniatures battles?  Try Conqueror: Fields of Victory.

Do you like Star Wars but find the prequels and sequels disappointing?  Man of Destiny is the book series for you.

My 2nd edition Warhammer 40k resource page. Check out my other stuff at https://www.ahlloyd.com 
   
Made in gb
Preparing the Invasion of Terra






Star Wars had a group of freedom fighters going up against an empire that had, at the very start of the movie, just abolished its democratic representative. It's literally saying authoritarian regimes are the bad guys.
How in gods name is that not a political stance?
   
 
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