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so the FAQ got pushed back? or did I hear incorrectly?

If so when is a guess it will be out?

 admironheart wrote:
so the FAQ got pushed back? or did I hear incorrectly?

If so when is a guess it will be out?

Got pushed back and is now labelled "Spring FAQ" so no real idea on time.

xmbk wrote:
Hemlocks are definitely a great unit that has been flying under the radar (pun intended).

But if you are just getting started, Spectres are very solid. They are flexible and play well. If Spears get nerfed, they will play a key role. If not, they are still fun and decent.

I might be alone here but I prefer the crimson hunter. I play Ulthwe though so the hemlock costs 10 points more for me for spirit stones which do nothing because SS don't stack with Ulthwe. Aside from that though - I much prefer the way the unit plays. It's even better for Aliotoc as it will be -2 to hit almost all the time.

 Xenomancers wrote:

xmbk wrote:
Hemlocks are definitely a great unit that has been flying under the radar (pun intended).

But if you are just getting started, Spectres are very solid. They are flexible and play well. If Spears get nerfed, they will play a key role. If not, they are still fun and decent.

I might be alone here but I prefer the crimson hunter. I play Ulthwe though so the hemlock costs 10 points more for me for spirit stones which do nothing because SS don't stack with Ulthwe. Aside from that though - I much prefer the way the unit plays. It's even better for Aliotoc as it will be -2 to hit almost all the time.

You might be alone in think the CH is better than the Hemlock, but I can certainly agree the CH is a great choice. I always include a Flyer detachment with 2 Hemlocks and 1 CHE.
The only reason I don't include 2 CH and only 1 Hemlock is due to Hemlock being psykers (thus adding more tactical options) and needing to be in closer (thus needing redundancy for survivability).
But the CHE is definetly an auto-include for me as it seems to be the best long ranged anti-vehicle platform in the codex IMO.

-

 Galef wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

xmbk wrote:
Hemlocks are definitely a great unit that has been flying under the radar (pun intended).

But if you are just getting started, Spectres are very solid. They are flexible and play well. If Spears get nerfed, they will play a key role. If not, they are still fun and decent.

I might be alone here but I prefer the crimson hunter. I play Ulthwe though so the hemlock costs 10 points more for me for spirit stones which do nothing because SS don't stack with Ulthwe. Aside from that though - I much prefer the way the unit plays. It's even better for Aliotoc as it will be -2 to hit almost all the time.

You might be alone in think the CH is better than the Hemlock, but I can certainly agree the CH is a great choice. I always include a Flyer detachment with 2 Hemlocks and 1 CHE.
The only reason I don't include 2 CH and only 1 Hemlock is due to Hemlock being psykers (thus adding more tactical options) and needing to be in closer (thus needing redundancy for survivability).
But the CHE is definetly an auto-include for me as it seems to be the best long ranged anti-vehicle platform in the codex IMO.

-

my thoughts are basicly exactly this??? Even going ulthwe as state here just bringing a fly wing is just money.

Love double hemlock as two sources of jinx gives some important reduancy on the spell, and casting more than one smite isn't the end of the world. Or if you really want you can have one take reveal, but i think double jinx is just better I tend to triangle the 3 fliers with my skyrunner autarchs and farseers in the middle which forces the opponent to have to deal with them if they want to get a table, and lets the farseers launch spells off in relative safety.

Another great use of the crimson hunter though is that you can forwarn the crimson hunter exarch and throw some shooting attacks that hit on 2+ rewroll onces (if you go second). I think if you go first your still at -1 one as the heavy rule states "it's preceeding movement phase" which would have your movement phase last turn.

the extra -1 to hit for alatoc is pretty nice for sure though, but in the meta right now that almost doesn't matter in the slightest. As i had said some time ago i think alaitoc is maybe kind of meh?? The meta right now is a lot of melee (blood angels, nids, shining spears, custodes), lots of hordes that don't even really care to fight you half the time or want to get close any way (poxwalkers, guard swarms), and dudes that don't even know -1 against (dark reapers/smite semi-spam). I think the -1 to hit really isn't that great or reliable against any of the good stuff, and everything else you kind of win any way??? I'd rather take a craft world that actualy reliably matters.

Where do we head after the inevitable nerfs? Let's assume dark reaps and shining spears get nerfed hard, ynnari as well. The go to for competitive lists becomes 2-3 hemlocks/crimson hunters or fire prisms and then wave serpent spam? Those lists are pretty dang good already, we might come out okay after the nerf bats.

Radikus wrote:
Where do we head after the inevitable nerfs? Let's assume dark reaps and shining spears get nerfed hard, ynnari as well. The go to for competitive lists becomes 2-3 hemlocks/crimson hunters or fire prisms and then wave serpent spam? Those lists are pretty dang good already, we might come out okay after the nerf bats.

so we have lots of units that are still good. Note a lot of the stuff out there that has been preforming well has been preforming well in some cases even pre chapter approved. What that means is that a lot of stuff is up to be nerfed, note our best showing was at LVO with ITC rules that basicly scream at the top of their lungs that eldar units are more powerful than they are in literally any other game format, do to very generous secondaries. For instance, adepticon and grand clash (both post LVO and both not ITC rules specific) eldar did much much worse than they did at LVO. Look at specificly the top at adepicon only saw 1 eldar player top 8 while grand clash i don't think i remember seeing any eldar??? So i feel like ITC either needs to back off with some it's secondaries and let GW balance or armies that shouldn't be harmed, will be harmed.

From that serpents are great durable transports (damage output not so much). Storm guardians jumping out are also super cost effective, as well as howling banshees quickened out of wave serpents are very powerful anti horde options.Guardian webway bomb is strong shooting as well.

As you said hemlocks/crimson hunters are also very good, and with out shining spears and dark reapers are out best anti big stuff units. Farseers and warlocks always have a place as well.

From there i think shining speers and dark reapers could still be good. As i said it's really just LVO that shifts things unnecessarily. Also shining speers would still be good at +5pts more a model. Even approaching 10pts/model the shining spear still have alot of good math in thier favor.as each one is damage wise alittle better than half a single vertus prator for custodes. Where they'd start falling off is durability, but even then shining spears are monsters at being force multiplied a full squad loves every buff the craftworld codex can supply and thier cost effectiveness with the buffs just fly so far through the roof it's kinda crazy.

Repears are the ones most likely to suffer every boost in points cost. For one against most targets units of reapers were getting out shot (in the shooting phase alone), but shining spears, and thier main benefit is just longer range and being close to a ynnari character who can give them lots of TLC. With out this they fall off quickly. Also the reapers can't fall back on being buffed to the moon like shining spears can. Not to mention meta's out side of LVO reapers fall off because they struggle to deal with real hordes and some monster mash list like that of what was brought at LVO.

Im expecting DR to go up a few points 3-5 and dropping max unit size to 6 (if we are being fair).

Shining spears just need to cost a bit more. They should be about 10% more expensive or so. I wouldn't change the unit any other way.

Ooo other unit that might not get touched that would still be amazing would be the skyrunner autarch with fusion gun/dark reaper laucher +lance.

mmimzie wrote:
Ooo other unit that might not get touched that would still be amazing would be the skyrunner autarch with fusion gun/dark reaper laucher +lance.

I doubt that unit gets touched since its Index specific.

I don't see any index units getting looked at once the codex is out. Only the inevitable retiring of Index's once GW decides to stop publishing them when all the Codex books are out.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Im expecting DR to go up a few points 3-5 and dropping max unit size to 6 (if we are being fair).

Shining spears just need to cost a bit more. They should be about 10% more expensive or so. I wouldn't change the unit any other way.

I agree for the most part. 35ppm for a Shining Spear is appropriate. 40ppm for the Exarch with a Star Lance.
If GW lowers the max unit size of Reapers, it will be to 5, since that is how many come in the box (and how many will likely come if they are ever remade in plastic)

-

 Galef wrote:

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Im expecting DR to go up a few points 3-5 and dropping max unit size to 6 (if we are being fair).

Shining spears just need to cost a bit more. They should be about 10% more expensive or so. I wouldn't change the unit any other way.

I agree for the most part. 35ppm for a Shining Spear is appropriate. 40ppm for the Exarch with a Star Lance.
If GW lowers the max unit size of Reapers, it will be to 5, since that is how many come in the box (and how many will likely come if they are ever remade in plastic)

-

I actually think one of the problem's with reapers is their min unit size. Look at most of the competitive lists, where you have one max unit and 2-3 min units (with tempest launchers). Increasing the min squad size to 5 would reduce the min unit spam, but that does adjust the problem with max squads and SFD from Ynnari.

Raising the max unit size address the SFD and stratagem use issue with Reapers.
Raising the points cost (particularly of the Tempest launcher itself) should fix this issue with min unit spamming.

So you end up having a unit that can be 3-5 models strong and even at minimum, with the Tempest launcher you are looking at over 100pts for the unit.

Keeps the unit worth taking, without being an auto-include.

-

I worry a little with Spears that what makes them too good is their access to a couple of one-unit-only buffs. They see play in Ynnari lists because they're one of the only things that significantly benefit from the fight or move Soulbursts. They're really scary off of a deep strike (via stratagem) combined with the Quicken psychic power. They also benefit a lot from Protect. They're just about the only unit in the codex that gets much out of being Saim-Hann because of its stratagem.

But do you see that many small Spears units, or lists with multiple Spears units? Most lists that I've seen seem to just run one big unit, not even doing the Reaper thing where you also have some small units that aren't going to get buffed to infinity. But I could be wrong on this -- I don't pay very close attention to tournaments.

Something that's tricky about balancing units that get used this way is that the unit itself only represents some of the player's investment. You're not paying 270 points for 10 Dark Reapers. You're paying 500 points for 10 Dark Reapers and Yvraine and a Farseer. You're earmarking some CP to Fire and Fade them or deep strike them for safety or whatever else. You can make Dark Reapers themselves 10% more expensive and you've only raised the cost of this combination by 5% (not even considering the CP investment). You've mainly nerfed MSU Reapers that aren't getting buffed. And probably you do want to do that too, but it's unfortunate that your nerf is least effective at getting rid of the most abusive way to use them.

I don't really care about Reapers. They're not a very Eldar-y unit anyway. But I do really want it to be the case that a good Eldar list is happy including some small units of Shining Spears, which you're not planning on turning into deathstars that are unkillable and fight twice each turn.

These are pretty good insight. I think Dionysodrus has a really point in that the streat of shining spears and maybe all of eldar to some a great extent is about synergy hammer. Most of armies definitly have synergies, but they don't go quite as far as eldar can go. With Doom/Guide are pretty close to the extents other armies go with syngery hammer. But then, we also have protect/conceal/fortune that can be used to bolster survival Then on top of that our melee units get even more sauce from Empower/enhance/quicken. All of which does a few things.

For one as Diony say's it make it hard to really just nerf any one unit and see a big change. I think just killing ynnari and a slight poitns boost would still get us in a good spot for dark reapers. I Also don't hate Moko's idea of boosting minimum unit size for dark weapers to 5. As it makes getting those tempest lauchers alittle hard and weakens ynnari. Again though, i think any ynnari based concerns is more a need to just fix ynnari itself.

As for the shining spears as Diony states the spears really love those buffs. Droping ynnari, or making it so they can't go ynnarri would fix that issue. However, even with a points boost they'll still be one of the best units to buff you can get. 9 models with the fire power of 18-27 other models makes them one of the best targets for buffs. Comparing shining spears to other units that can be buffed, a full squad of shining spears cost 281pts, where as howling banshees or striking scorpions cost 130/152pts respectively. Thus your force multipliers go alot futher when buffing the spears over those other units, assuming they each did equal levels of damage per pts. So maybe these guys could do with a reduced max unit size?? or a points increase to where they sort of require the buffs to be powerful??

Dionysodorus wrote:
I worry a little with Spears that what makes them too good is their access to a couple of one-unit-only buffs. They see play in Ynnari lists because they're one of the only things that significantly benefit from the fight or move Soulbursts. They're really scary off of a deep strike (via stratagem) combined with the Quicken psychic power. They also benefit a lot from Protect. They're just about the only unit in the codex that gets much out of being Saim-Hann because of its stratagem.

But do you see that many small Spears units, or lists with multiple Spears units? Most lists that I've seen seem to just run one big unit, not even doing the Reaper thing where you also have some small units that aren't going to get buffed to infinity. But I could be wrong on this -- I don't pay very close attention to tournaments.

Something that's tricky about balancing units that get used this way is that the unit itself only represents some of the player's investment. You're not paying 270 points for 10 Dark Reapers. You're paying 500 points for 10 Dark Reapers and Yvraine and a Farseer. You're earmarking some CP to Fire and Fade them or deep strike them for safety or whatever else. You can make Dark Reapers themselves 10% more expensive and you've only raised the cost of this combination by 5% (not even considering the CP investment). You've mainly nerfed MSU Reapers that aren't getting buffed. And probably you do want to do that too, but it's unfortunate that your nerf is least effective at getting rid of the most abusive way to use them.

I don't really care about Reapers. They're not a very Eldar-y unit anyway. But I do really want it to be the case that a good Eldar list is happy including some small units of Shining Spears, which you're not planning on turning into deathstars that are unkillable and fight twice each turn.

Eldar's strength is synergy. This is the problem that makes them incredibly difficult to balance.

Increasing spears in cost and reducing their max unit size to 6 (double their min size and two boxes worth) would help bring them back slightly without making them worthless. The reduced max squad size makes the buffs they can receive less potent.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

mmimzie wrote:
For one as Diony say's it make it hard to really just nerf any one unit and see a big change. I think just killing ynnari and a slight poitns boost would still get us in a good spot for dark reapers. I Also don't hate Moko's idea of boosting minimum unit size for dark weapers to 5. As it makes getting those tempest lauchers alittle hard and weakens ynnari. Again though, i think any ynnari based concerns is more a need to just fix ynnari itself.

That's the point though. Tempest launchers are too good. Either they need a massive increase in points, or the squad size can increase to make them less effective. Five guys hiding from LOS in order to make full use of that tempest launcher is more of a waste than three guys.

Is it the paralising fear of the spring FAQ or has everything been said about CWE?

So question time: What is your most fun (not strongest) craftworld army you played since the codex?

I have to admit, I'm in love with my foot aspect warrior brigade army. It's just so much fun. Also absolutely love Eldar psychic powers and psykers.

Skyrunner Autarch
Farseer
Warlock conclave (4)
Asurmen
4x5 Dire Avengers
20 Guardians
5 Rangers
5 Fire Dragons
10 Banshees
5 Scorpions
2x5 Swooping Hawks
5 Warp Spiders
3x3 Dark Reapers

Any question for Eldar is answered with dark reapers, shining spears, Ynnari. Also how they get rekt with the FAQ.
I'm having a great time with my knife ears.

Weidekuh wrote:
Is it the paralising fear of the spring FAQ or has everything been said about CWE?

So question time: What is your most fun (not strongest) craftworld army you played since the codex?

I have to admit, I'm in love with my foot aspect warrior brigade army. It's just so much fun. Also absolutely love Eldar psychic powers and psykers.

Skyrunner Autarch
Farseer
Warlock conclave (4)
Asurmen
4x5 Dire Avengers
20 Guardians
5 Rangers
5 Fire Dragons
10 Banshees
5 Scorpions
2x5 Swooping Hawks
5 Warp Spiders
3x3 Dark Reapers

Lol I had the same thought. Just for me we are stuck with out the current FAQ. There aren't alot of compelling reasons not to take dark reapers or shining spears with some sort of character support.

It's so much so that picking most any other units seems almost dumb in comparison?? So I think to some extent we are kind of looking for those nerds to give us more design freedom. Even more so because i feel like eldar out side of dark reapers have some really good optuons: guardians, wave serpents, howling banshee, hemlock, and CHE all bare out well when you do the math and you look at your options for getting them where they need to be. Then swooping hawks and wind riders get honorable mentions because they math okau, and are very mobile, and wind riders namely do very well with CP and ranged attack buffs.

As for your list. Scorpions are meh. They can be pretty good with buffs and attacking a target in cover, but they need more support than I think thier situational usefulness warrants. I think I'd put banshee into a kaucher, also known as a wave serpent. They have to be quickend to make combat fron deepstrike anyway, and so if you throw them in a wave serpent and give them quicken they have an average charge range of like 34" which is awesome!!! Plus you get a wave serpent.

The wa4lock conclave also want a waveseprent. I'm sure they could deep strike but it doesn't feel worth the cp???

Well, the most challenging (IE: not overly competitive) is my Iyanden Craftworld list. I'm actually taking it out for a one day, 32 player event today just to see if I can win a single game.

mmimzie wrote:

Weidekuh wrote:
Is it the paralising fear of the spring FAQ or has everything been said about CWE?

So question time: What is your most fun (not strongest) craftworld army you played since the codex?

I have to admit, I'm in love with my foot aspect warrior brigade army. It's just so much fun. Also absolutely love Eldar psychic powers and psykers.

Skyrunner Autarch
Farseer
Warlock conclave (4)
Asurmen
4x5 Dire Avengers
20 Guardians
5 Rangers
5 Fire Dragons
10 Banshees
5 Scorpions
2x5 Swooping Hawks
5 Warp Spiders
3x3 Dark Reapers

Lol I had the same thought. Just for me we are stuck with out the current FAQ. There aren't alot of compelling reasons not to take dark reapers or shining spears with some sort of character support.

It's so much so that picking most any other units seems almost dumb in comparison?? So I think to some extent we are kind of looking for those nerds to give us more design freedom. Even more so because i feel like eldar out side of dark reapers have some really good optuons: guardians, wave serpents, howling banshee, hemlock, and CHE all bare out well when you do the math and you look at your options for getting them where they need to be. Then swooping hawks and wind riders get honorable mentions because they math okau, and are very mobile, and wind riders namely do very well with CP and ranged attack buffs.

As for your list. Scorpions are meh. They can be pretty good with buffs and attacking a target in cover, but they need more support than I think thier situational usefulness warrants. I think I'd put banshee into a kaucher, also known as a wave serpent. They have to be quickend to make combat fron deepstrike anyway, and so if you throw them in a wave serpent and give them quicken they have an average charge range of like 34" which is awesome!!! Plus you get a wave serpent.

The wa4lock conclave also want a waveseprent. I'm sure they could deep strike but it doesn't feel worth the cp???

Oh I know the list could be improved. With LOS blocking terrain it's easy to hide the conclave and usually same for the Banshees.

Nice Iyanden army! I have 20 wraithguard/blades, 4 Lords and 3 Knights myself. Tell us how it went.

I'm eager to see the rules for the new portal model which will be in the Harlequin book.
I don't think it will be very useful for my Harlies (unless there's a Masque tactic that allows reliable 9" charges), but it might be decent with wraithblades/wraithguards. Just another way to webway them in, but for points instead of CP.
And with a bit of luck we'll be able to deep strike bigger units (like a wraithlord), which would be great for wraith lists.

Two of us went to a local tourney (36 players which was great for a one day event), and he demonstrated to me the utility of Banshees. Very fast, great turn one harassing unit, and not high on opponents threat list until they already reached asault. For 130 points, they really worked well in conjunction with the Gaurdian bomb; helped alleviate return fire.

So impressed with them, I bits purchased a full unit (I don't like finecasr at all and would prefer plastic over metal).

It was one of those lesser used units that folks don't immediately gun for, such as Shining Spears or Dark Reapers. Anyone else have positive results.

They are excellent tactical unit, even if not very killy. I like MSU squads of 5 with a halberd though.

I have 20 but I plan on expanding to 30 Banshees once this https://pp.userapi.com/c847218/v847218773/108ae/j1iPG8jSfKM.jpg from Artel comes out and try and run them with their 'mom.

I wonder what would happen if you combine banshees & spears with wyches with shardnet and impaler (d3 for enemy to fallback against your d6). That would probably make for a very frustrating army for shooty lists relying on overwatch and throwing shots from cover to play against.

Anyone has numbers for how effective Wyches are against GEQ's? If compared to our Guardian Defenders or Swooping Hawks. Esp. if we take cover, stratagem & psychic barrier into concideration...

Weidekuh wrote:

mmimzie wrote:

Weidekuh wrote:
Is it the paralising fear of the spring FAQ or has everything been said about CWE?

So question time: What is your most fun (not strongest) craftworld army you played since the codex?

I have to admit, I'm in love with my foot aspect warrior brigade army. It's just so much fun. Also absolutely love Eldar psychic powers and psykers.

Skyrunner Autarch
Farseer
Warlock conclave (4)
Asurmen
4x5 Dire Avengers
20 Guardians
5 Rangers
5 Fire Dragons
10 Banshees
5 Scorpions
2x5 Swooping Hawks
5 Warp Spiders
3x3 Dark Reapers

Lol I had the same thought. Just for me we are stuck with out the current FAQ. There aren't alot of compelling reasons not to take dark reapers or shining spears with some sort of character support.

It's so much so that picking most any other units seems almost dumb in comparison?? So I think to some extent we are kind of looking for those nerds to give us more design freedom. Even more so because i feel like eldar out side of dark reapers have some really good optuons: guardians, wave serpents, howling banshee, hemlock, and CHE all bare out well when you do the math and you look at your options for getting them where they need to be. Then swooping hawks and wind riders get honorable mentions because they math okau, and are very mobile, and wind riders namely do very well with CP and ranged attack buffs.

As for your list. Scorpions are meh. They can be pretty good with buffs and attacking a target in cover, but they need more support than I think thier situational usefulness warrants. I think I'd put banshee into a kaucher, also known as a wave serpent. They have to be quickend to make combat fron deepstrike anyway, and so if you throw them in a wave serpent and give them quicken they have an average charge range of like 34" which is awesome!!! Plus you get a wave serpent.

The wa4lock conclave also want a waveseprent. I'm sure they could deep strike but it doesn't feel worth the cp???

Oh I know the list could be improved. With LOS blocking terrain it's easy to hide the conclave and usually same for the Banshees.

Nice Iyanden army! I have 20 wraithguard/blades, 4 Lords and 3 Knights myself. Tell us how it went.

Thanks. Not unexpectedly, I lost every game. I did get to play against new Necrons and new Dark Eldar. Necrons dropped a Wraithknight and Wave Serpent on turn one. I knew Wraithknights were fragile this edition, but the number of dice that can be rolled is quite astounding to me. It's a decision I think I need to make when going to tourneys; play 100+ model count armies and try to compete or just play what I like and end up at the bottom brackets.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Shadenuat wrote:
They are excellent tactical unit, even if not very killy. I like MSU squads of 5 with a halberd though.

I have 20 but I plan on expanding to 30 Banshees once this https://pp.userapi.com/c847218/v847218773/108ae/j1iPG8jSfKM.jpg from Artel comes out and try and run them with their 'mom.

I wonder what would happen if you combine banshees & spears with wyches with shardnet and impaler (d3 for enemy to fallback against your d6). That would probably make for a very frustrating army for shooty lists relying on overwatch and throwing shots from cover to play against.

Anyone has numbers for how effective Wyches are against GEQ's? If compared to our Guardian Defenders or Swooping Hawks. Esp. if we take cover, stratagem & psychic barrier into concideration...

Artel Banshees were beautiful and I was disappointed GW made him pull them so quickly. I bits ordered various DE parts to build a squad of 10 as an alternative.

I have not looked into DE rules deeply yet. I got my first game against them over the weekend and they were a blast to play against. Great models and fun rules to match. Having my Stratagem canceled on me by them was a very eye opening ability. I think it cost 3 CP, but it could be very clutch.

Spears and Wyches sound interesting, especially with Matchless Agility stratagem. I generally don't mix factions but Chaos and Imperial armies that do this are my biggest challenges.

So, what's new in the faqs for Eldar?

wow, Dark Reapers nerfed to death

I wasn't surprised to see that Dark Reapers went up, though they went up 7 points , which still puts them below index point levels though I'm not sure if the Exarch with a Tempest launcher is more than he was at index. I'd have to look closer when I get home.

I was surprised to see not only that the Shining Spears were untouched, but that our Psykers took a major points increase. Farseer from 100 to 110, Spiritseer from 45 to 65, Warlock from 30 to 55 (Ouch!), and Warlock Conclaive is now at 45 though I don't know the original amount for this one was per model. I can see the Spiritseer being too efficient, but I didn't think locks were needing to be doubled.

Point changes:

CRAFTWORLDS UNITS
UNIT MODELS PER UNIT POINTS PER MODEL (Does not include wargear)
Dark Reapers 3-10 12 +7 points
Farseer 1 110 +10 points
Spiritseer 1 65 +20 points
Warlock 1 55 +20 points
Warlock Conclave 2-10 45 +15 points

Comparing to the above:

Farseer Skyrunner 130, +20 points for jetbike.
Warlock Skyrunner 65, +10 points for jetbike.
Warlock Conclave Skyrunner 60, +15 points for jetbike.

For those points you get a huge movement increase, 4 shuriken shots, 4+ save. Hmmm....