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Kbob does have a point. The only benefit i can see this release has to people is that you dont have to buy anything new except the codex in some cases, and im talking about GK players as i dont know why anyone would want to start this army now. Just changing most if not all models you own now... Though its still early and time will tell and we have yet to see how GW will treat other new 7th releases

ForeverARookie wrote:

I don't want to have to pay an extra $25 just to field my Inquisitors. I don't want to have to pay an extra $20 to field my Assassins. If all the units had been just left in the Grey Knight Codex, players of other factions for about $50, could have their choice of Assassins, Inquisition, and Grey Knights. Instead, if they want the Assassins and Inquisition, they still pay that much, but don't have the rules for the Grey Knights. Everyone loses.

I wasn't fielding tripple Dreadknights because I used a Purifier list with Terminators in Land Raiders taking the Flanks. Now that Psycannons have a worthless range on Power Armoured units (12" when moving), I have over 20 models I have to convert or sub as Incinerators.

This isn't just Hyperbole. Grey Knights got gimped when they weren't even a powerhouse this edition to begin with.

I'm not disagreeing with you. I hated 6th ed, so sold my stuff and moved on. I read through 7th and felt like it was a good mix of 5th and 6th and actually like playing again.

But GW is in the business of making money - not pleasing the fans. That has been the truth since roughly 3.5 - 4th ed. Big turn of the switch there and we could debate for hours the good/bad/ugly - but it gets done to death.

Do I "enjoy" being actively gouged - no and have thus relied on less than reputable means to secure my collection which I have no problem admitting.

However, that doesn't take away from my enjoyment of the game with my gaming group or trying to keep supporting my FLGS since apparently GW is not interested.

 Anpu42 wrote:

 TheKbob wrote:

 pretre wrote:


There's a button so you don't have to deal with that anymore.

Yep, there's a button to ignore someone, but it doesn't make facts go away. The game company is hurting AMD we have the facts to prove it. This release is a mess from any rational viewpoint of value. So yea, keep ignoring everyone that has a "negative" view. You find yourself alone soon enough in your echo chamber.

If things are so bad why are you still dealing with 40k.
I have not seen you like anything.

As stated, I do own a GK army. I was vocal about Wolves as I owned a large army of wolves, since now sold. I loved 40k, I wouldn't have spent thousands of dollars on it if I didn't. Now the thing I loved is being ruined with each release. The Blood Angels are the last one and last tiny hope (do I need pictures of those models for validation of an opinion too?).

With each release it gets worse and the irrational behavior to support GW, a company that has said everything but actively and openly hating their customers, reaches crticial mass. Any form of valid criticism, more so based as objective fact and not just flavor of artistic merit, is seen as "hater speech" which is nonsense.

I still love 40k. I'll love 40k after GW collapses. I'll keep playing Dawn of War and painting minis. But I'll be damned if I let them actively market a product that is counter to the rest of the entire market. When you're supposedly the biggest and best, you should be the trend setter. GW is not unless you mean in pricing and nonsense in an exercise to see what the market can bear.

In all my perceived negativity, I've always relied on fact or logical conclusions. And so far, my track record has been pretty spot on. I called most of this release despite being told contrary. Want me to like something? Then maybe you should see my reaction to to her games (generally positive). Or games workshop could release something actually worth getting excited over. The invalidating of my at for the market suggested retail price of $49.99 isn't good.

DDaley60 wrote:
Kbob does have a point. The only benefit i can see this release has to people is that you dont have to buy anything new except the codex in some cases, and im talking about GK players as i dont know why anyone would want to start this army now. Just changing most if not all models you own now... Though its still early and time will tell and we have yet to see how GW will treat other new 7th releases

A point about a just realsed untested army?

So far I have seen only people going is "This unit sucks Now and this unit sucks Now, this Codex is Now.
Then you got the positive ones who are looking at the Codex going, there are possibilities here. They are looking at what they can do now, what combos they can pull off and moving on to make this a GOOD Codex. It might not be a great one, but it looks to be good like the last 4.

 TheKbob wrote:

I was vocal about Wolves as I owned a large army of wolves, since now sold.

Not to derail this thread any further - but what about the new book did you not like causing you to sell your wolves???

I think it's one of the best books they've done (except for Santa's Sleigh - that's a "jump the shark" moment for me).

Tyfus wrote:

 daedalus wrote:

 agnosto wrote:
Yay. My Tau love 1st turn deep strikers who sit out in the open for me to plasma to death after my intercepting missile-sides and riptides are through of course. /snark

But you can run, so you can just spread out from the worst of the intercep.... ohrightnevermind.

You run in your shooting phase so interceptor and big ap2 plates will hit you first

That was the joke.

 Uriels_Flame wrote:

 TheKbob wrote:

I was vocal about Wolves as I owned a large army of wolves, since now sold.

Not to derail this thread any further - but what about the new book did you not like causing you to sell your wolves???

I think it's one of the best books they've done (except for Santa's Sleigh - that's a "jump the shark" moment for me).

I have some wolves and GK. The wolf book is definitely better (and I don't even own or plan to run thunder wolves). For example the wolf book didn't lose half its options. The GK book did. That alone is a huge completely logical reason to complain. GW wants me to pay triple the price of the old codex to get what I had before (with minor tweaks). That's just nonsense. A person can and does like 40k and can still call that nonsense.

 daedalus wrote:

Tyfus wrote:

 daedalus wrote:

 agnosto wrote:
Yay. My Tau love 1st turn deep strikers who sit out in the open for me to plasma to death after my intercepting missile-sides and riptides are through of course. /snark

But you can run, so you can just spread out from the worst of the intercep.... ohrightnevermind.

You run in your shooting phase so interceptor and big ap2 plates will hit you first

That was the joke.

Yea the formation COULD have been useful if we had bonuses on the deepstrike, like say a cover save, +1 (or pushing it +2) inv save, Units on turn they deepstrike count as relentless (which would cover for the weakness of the goddamn Psilencer and Psycannon), THATS an alpha strike what we have now is a fancy platter.

Well just because the formation isnt so hot against Tau, doesnt mean you automatically dismiss it against every other army.

Unless you only ever play Tau

The more I read about GK, the more I think it's a solid codex. Neither too good or too bad. And by the way, the fact that you don't see some special characters in the pics doesn't mean you really have lost them,maybe they didn't post them. Unless you specifically asked for them... maybe I missed that.

 TheKbob wrote:
It's utterly dumbfounding at this point to see indivuals shelling out $50 for a book of recycled fluff and cut nearly in half in value, even more when all the rules are leaked, and pay $8 for the tiniest pack of cards to boot. You're actively being ripped off. There's no hyperbole, no judgment, just the straight fact. Whether the army is good or bad, you're getting the equivalent to errata in any other game for $50. This is why GW hasn't folded terribly yet.

What would it take for folks to wisen up and stop paying so that we might get good releases? I can literally own all the rules for Warmahordes for $60. All the rules. For life. With free updates. You're paying $50 to lose half the army. I just cannot comprehend this and it saddens me. I hope that someday folks will find other games they like and realize their game dollars can go much farther and still have a great time with friends. And that the subk cost fallacy is just that, a fallacy before the "I've invested so much money and time in my army" argument comes up. I can point to my own in this situation and still say "no."

Well, have fun playing Warmahordes then.
That said, sir, will you be so kind to stop annoying us?
Thanks.

Diablix wrote:
The more I read about GK, the more I think it's a solid codex. Neither too good or too bad. And by the way, the fact that you don't see some special characters in the pics doesn't mean you really have lost them,maybe they didn't post them. Unless you specifically asked for them... maybe I missed that.

We are fairly certain that everything that is posted is everything we're getting.

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
Well just because the formation isnt so hot against Tau, doesnt mean you automatically dismiss it against every other army.

Unless you only ever play Tau

+1 there.

The only issue I have had vs. Tau is surviving the first shooting phase. Outside of that (which is what they do!), it's squishy times.

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
Well just because the formation isnt so hot against Tau, doesnt mean you automatically dismiss it against every other army.

Unless you only ever play Tau

Well tau and interceptor is just part of it. The big thing is that GK shooting isnt't that strong. You have some minor shooting, and then you are a sitting duck for a turn.

Shure what left can charge next turn, but after enemy shooting, screening and tarpetting etc you shouldnt have that many good targets.

The good alphastrike strike reserve armies usually have good shooting to take something importent out.

Diablix wrote:

Well, have fun playing Warmahordes then.
That said, sir, will you be so kind to stop annoying us?
Thanks.

That is a TERRIBLE attitude to have about people who like 40k but are annoyed at this low value release. Do you actually think it is good the new GK codex lost half its options and increased greatly in price? Is that your idea of a good deal?

Tyfus wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
Well just because the formation isnt so hot against Tau, doesnt mean you automatically dismiss it against every other army.

Unless you only ever play Tau

Well tau and interceptor is just part of it. The big thing is that GK shooting isnt't that strong. You have some minor shooting, and then you are a sitting duck for a turn.

Shure what left can charge next turn, but after enemy shooting, screening and tarpetting etc you shouldnt have that many good targets.

The good alphastrike strike reserve armies usually have good shooting to take something importent out.

Isn't that what , Psycannons, Psilencers and Incinerators are for, hitting hard?

 Anpu42 wrote:

Tyfus wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
Well just because the formation isnt so hot against Tau, doesnt mean you automatically dismiss it against every other army.

Unless you only ever play Tau

Well tau and interceptor is just part of it. The big thing is that GK shooting isnt't that strong. You have some minor shooting, and then you are a sitting duck for a turn.

Shure what left can charge next turn, but after enemy shooting, screening and tarpetting etc you shouldnt have that many good targets.

The good alphastrike strike reserve armies usually have good shooting to take something importent out.

Isn't that what , Psycannons, Psilencers and Incinerators are for, hitting hard?

Anti horde is fine. Anti mech isn't as hot. Though the Lib at least can field a combi-melta now!

Is +1 inv save pushing it? Seriously? Its a 50/50 chance if we get hit by a ap 2 weapon for termies then.

And how is relentless related to Tau? Salvo and heavy weapons can't fire on the turn they deepstrike. This would be buffing the PAGK who actually need that now. Especially if our alpha strike is supposed to be shooting.

Quickjager wrote:
Is +1 inv save pushing it? Seriously? Its a 50/50 chance if we get hit by a ap 2 weapon for termies then.

And how is relentless related to Tau? Salvo and heavy weapons can't fire on the turn they deepstrike. This would be buffing the PAGK who actually need that now. Especially if our alpha strike is supposed to be shooting.

You can fire salvo after you move, which deep striking counts as. Heavy can always snapshot if you move, albeit snapshotting is never great. Though if you're deep striking terminators, they dont really care as they're relentless. And Dreadknights can deep strike as well.

AWWWWW god dang it i just noticed no more orbital strike relays.

Man there goes my drop the bomb lists :/

I thought the whole TAU thing was due to the fact they can interceptor ap 2 pie plates like no ones business

as well running happens in the shooting phase so you cant get passed it.

Super Newb wrote:

Diablix wrote:

Well, have fun playing Warmahordes then.
That said, sir, will you be so kind to stop annoying us?
Thanks.

That is a TERRIBLE attitude to have about people who like 40k but are annoyed at this low value release. Do you actually think it is good the new GK codex lost half its options and increased greatly in price? Is that your idea of a good deal?

How exactly did it go up in price?

Quickjager wrote:
And how is relentless related to Tau? Salvo and heavy weapons can't fire on the turn they deepstrike.

\
Is this a new rule in 7th or something? Why can't Relentless infantry fire Salvo and Heavy weapons when Deep Striking?

 Anpu42 wrote:

DDaley60 wrote:
Kbob does have a point. The only benefit i can see this release has to people is that you dont have to buy anything new except the codex in some cases, and im talking about GK players as i dont know why anyone would want to start this army now. Just changing most if not all models you own now... Though its still early and time will tell and we have yet to see how GW will treat other new 7th releases

A point about a just realsed untested army?

So far I have seen only people going is "This unit sucks Now and this unit sucks Now, this Codex is Now.
Then you got the positive ones who are looking at the Codex going, there are possibilities here. They are looking at what they can do now, what combos they can pull off and moving on to make this a GOOD Codex. It might not be a great one, but it looks to be good like the last 4.

A point that this book doesn't have enough content to justify being $50 yet, there are positives but nothing just jumps at you like ermahgerd. Hence why at the end i said its still early, for now all we have is a $50 book thats half the size it was previously

 Eldarain wrote:

Quickjager wrote:
And how is relentless related to Tau? Salvo and heavy weapons can't fire on the turn they deepstrike.

\
Is this a new rule in 7th or something? Why can't Relentless infantry fire Salvo and Heavy weapons when Deep Striking?

They can, he's wrong.

Played a 2,000 pt game last night using the new rules vs SM. He had 2 LRC, Vindicator, Stormraven, a Drop Pod and an Iron Clad Dread.

I ran a GM, Librarian, Interceptors, Purifiers, 3 5 man terminators, 2 DK, and a TLAC dread.

Here were my takeaways:

I was able to kill his vindicator and LRC's. On turn one after shunting and shooting the vindicator with 2 heavy psycannons, it became immobilized and could only snap, it shortly died after. So the anti tank is still definitely there with the DK and the new heavy psycannon that can shoot 6 times.

I totally felt the pain of the psyfleman dread not being as potent but probably because I was so spoiled for so long.

The relic with extra spell and reroll ones for psychic powers on sanctic is crazy good and it was definitely apparent that the psychic phase was even more dominated by GK. Purifiers are now lvl 2 is pretty nice and I was generating 14+d6 dice.

DK having the 4++ option through sanctuary is just so good especially since they are just so much cheaper.

I lost the game :( to no one's fault but my own.

But all in all it was great, and I felt the book was pretty strong.

I was able to field 250-300 more points then I normally could have.

 exploited751 wrote:
Played a 2,000 pt game last night using the new rules vs SM. He had 2 LRC, Vindicator, Stormraven, a Drop Pod and an Iron Clad Dread.

I ran a GM, Librarian, Interceptors, Purifiers, 3 5 man terminators, 2 DK, and a TLAC dread.

Here were my takeaways:

I was able to kill his vindicator and LRC's. On turn one after shunting and shooting the vindicator with 2 heavy psycannons, it became immobilized and could only snap, it shortly died after. So the anti tank is still definitely there with the DK and the new heavy psycannon that can shoot 6 times.

I totally felt the pain of the psyfleman dread not being as potent but probably because I was so spoiled for so long.

The relic with extra spell and reroll ones for psychic powers on sanctic is crazy good and it was definitely apparent that the psychic phase was even more dominated by GK. Purifiers are now lvl 2 is pretty nice and I was generating 14+d6 dice.

DK having the 4++ option through sanctuary is just so good especially since they are just so much cheaper.

I lost the game :( to no one's fault but my own.

But all in all it was great, and I felt the book was pretty strong.

I was able to field 250-300 more points then I normally could have.

Thanks for the info.

 Samurai_Eduh wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:

Quickjager wrote:
And how is relentless related to Tau? Salvo and heavy weapons can't fire on the turn they deepstrike.

\
Is this a new rule in 7th or something? Why can't Relentless infantry fire Salvo and Heavy weapons when Deep Striking?

They can, he's wrong.

No I am not I said in the pist PAGK who most CERTAINLY do not have relentless.

Quickjager wrote:

 Samurai_Eduh wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:

Quickjager wrote:
And how is relentless related to Tau? Salvo and heavy weapons can't fire on the turn they deepstrike.

\
Is this a new rule in 7th or something? Why can't Relentless infantry fire Salvo and Heavy weapons when Deep Striking?

They can, he's wrong.

No I am not I said in the pist PAGK who most CERTAINLY do not have relentless.

They can still fire 2 salvo shots at 12 inches, or snapfire heavy weapons.

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

Quickjager wrote:

 Samurai_Eduh wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:

Quickjager wrote:
And how is relentless related to Tau? Salvo and heavy weapons can't fire on the turn they deepstrike.

\
Is this a new rule in 7th or something? Why can't Relentless infantry fire Salvo and Heavy weapons when Deep Striking?

They can, he's wrong.

No I am not I said in the pist PAGK who most CERTAINLY do not have relentless.

They can still fire 2 salvo shots at 12 inches, or snapfire heavy weapons.

Which isn't very much alpha strike. Like I said this would solely benefit PAGK, everyone with termies wouldnt even notice.

 Anpu42 wrote:

Tyfus wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
Well just because the formation isnt so hot against Tau, doesnt mean you automatically dismiss it against every other army.

Unless you only ever play Tau

Well tau and interceptor is just part of it. The big thing is that GK shooting isnt't that strong. You have some minor shooting, and then you are a sitting duck for a turn.

Shure what left can charge next turn, but after enemy shooting, screening and tarpetting etc you shouldnt have that many good targets.

The good alphastrike strike reserve armies usually have good shooting to take something importent out.

Isn't that what , Psycannons, Psilencers and Incinerators are for, hitting hard?

Not in my book

- Strikes with psycannons are now waste. They was one of the most important psycannon platforms we had. You will not be able to bring that many psycannons on termys and paladins. Strength 7 AP4 so vechiles are not that scared. It's Ap4 so shure the cheap hordes are scared, but they have numbers. You could bet on getting a rend, but banking on the luck...
- Psilancer is S4 AP- i doubt any multiwound models are scared. The important one like spawns and MC have high T, and some of them, like FMC, a decent save.
- Incernator is good against horde, avarege against rest.

I predict that the GK will do some hull points and kill som 4+ models. That's it. Then you will be hit by his total army.

Hitting hard from dep strike is several units with 2 plasma or melta (SW will also have a combi-weapon), sternguards etc. And now after SW a pod with 3 centurions with gravcannons.

I'm not saying GK is utterly bad, i just think this detachment is mediocre.

I would go libby, termies and 3 dreadknights on table. Ad in somethind hard fasthitting. Maybe double chapter masters with bikes.

Tyfus wrote:

Spoiler:

 Anpu42 wrote:

Tyfus wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
Well just because the formation isnt so hot against Tau, doesnt mean you automatically dismiss it against every other army.

Unless you only ever play Tau

Well tau and interceptor is just part of it. The big thing is that GK shooting isnt't that strong. You have some minor shooting, and then you are a sitting duck for a turn.

Shure what left can charge next turn, but after enemy shooting, screening and tarpetting etc you shouldnt have that many good targets.

The good alphastrike strike reserve armies usually have good shooting to take something importent out.

Isn't that what , Psycannons, Psilencers and Incinerators are for, hitting hard?

Not in my book

- Strikes with psycannons are now waste. They was one of the most important psycannon platforms we had. You will not be able to bring that many psycannons on termys and paladins. Strength 7 AP4 so vechiles are not that scared. It's Ap4 so shure the cheap hordes are scared, but they have numbers. You could bet on getting a rend, but banking on the luck...
- Psilancer is S4 AP- i doubt any multiwound models are scared. The important one like spawns and MC have high T, and some of them, like FMC, a decent save.
- Incernator is good against horde, avarege against rest.

I predict that the GK will do some hull points and kill som 4+ models. That's it. Then you will be hit by his total army.

Hitting hard from dep strike is several units with 2 plasma or melta (SW will also have a combi-weapon), sternguards etc. And now after SW a pod with 3 centurions with gravcannons.

I'm not saying GK is utterly bad, i just think this detachment is mediocre.

I would go libby, termies and 3 dreadknights on table. Ad in somethind hard fasthitting. Maybe double chapter masters with bikes.

So we are going to have change our tactics is what you are saying?