Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Yeah, they're super overpriced. Which is a shame, because I love the look of a tank-heavy IG army. It's too bad.

It'd be really hard to make IG tanks worth anything without increasing the number of weapons they can fire, somehow giving them a 5+ save (some sort of netting or plating?), or increasing their HP by 1 across the board. Probably 2 out of those 3, tbh.

Or lowering their points, but I'd rather tanks be scary then a swarm.

Akiasura wrote:
It'd be really hard to make IG tanks worth anything without increasing the number of weapons they can fire, somehow giving them a 5+ save (some sort of netting or plating?), or increasing their HP by 1 across the board. Probably 2 out of those 3, tbh.

Or lowering their points, but I'd rather tanks be scary then a swarm.

Drop the prices by 20%-40% across the board, make them HP 4 and give them a 'Heavy Armour' rule whereby they have a 5+ invun save against all damaging hits. Also bring the price of camo gear down by about 30%.

 master of ordinance wrote:

Akiasura wrote:
It'd be really hard to make IG tanks worth anything without increasing the number of weapons they can fire, somehow giving them a 5+ save (some sort of netting or plating?), or increasing their HP by 1 across the board. Probably 2 out of those 3, tbh.

Or lowering their points, but I'd rather tanks be scary then a swarm.

Drop the prices by 20%-40% across the board, make them HP 4 and give them a 'Heavy Armour' rule whereby they have a 5+ invun save against all damaging hits. Also bring the price of camo gear down by about 30%.

Honestly, I'd rather keep the prices the same, let them fire all weapons if they move 6" or less, and keep everything else.
Probably have lances ignore the heavy armor rules (and only lances) to make lances worth taking.
Give landraiders the same treatment, along with predators (basically imperium non transport non skimmer tanks)

Akiasura wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

Akiasura wrote:
It'd be really hard to make IG tanks worth anything without increasing the number of weapons they can fire, somehow giving them a 5+ save (some sort of netting or plating?), or increasing their HP by 1 across the board. Probably 2 out of those 3, tbh.

Or lowering their points, but I'd rather tanks be scary then a swarm.

Drop the prices by 20%-40% across the board, make them HP 4 and give them a 'Heavy Armour' rule whereby they have a 5+ invun save against all damaging hits. Also bring the price of camo gear down by about 30%.

Honestly, I'd rather keep the prices the same, let them fire all weapons if they move 6" or less, and keep everything else.
Probably have lances ignore the heavy armor rules (and only lances) to make lances worth taking.
Give landraiders the same treatment, along with predators (basically imperium non transport non skimmer tanks)

I like this idea though the Leman Russ will still need a major points drop (20% to 40% depending upon variant - looking at you Demolisher) and make the 5+ save work against all hits, becoming 4+ for a glance (FFS they are heavy tanks, not some pipsqueak APC.

The save doesn't make sense against something like haywire grenades. The Russ needs to be deadlier, not impossible to kill. We already have GMCs for that.

 master of ordinance wrote:

Akiasura wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

Akiasura wrote:
It'd be really hard to make IG tanks worth anything without increasing the number of weapons they can fire, somehow giving them a 5+ save (some sort of netting or plating?), or increasing their HP by 1 across the board. Probably 2 out of those 3, tbh.

Or lowering their points, but I'd rather tanks be scary then a swarm.

Drop the prices by 20%-40% across the board, make them HP 4 and give them a 'Heavy Armour' rule whereby they have a 5+ invun save against all damaging hits. Also bring the price of camo gear down by about 30%.

Honestly, I'd rather keep the prices the same, let them fire all weapons if they move 6" or less, and keep everything else.
Probably have lances ignore the heavy armor rules (and only lances) to make lances worth taking.
Give landraiders the same treatment, along with predators (basically imperium non transport non skimmer tanks)

I like this idea though the Leman Russ will still need a major points drop (20% to 40% depending upon variant - looking at you Demolisher) and make the 5+ save work against all hits, becoming 4+ for a glance (FFS they are heavy tanks, not some pipsqueak APC.

I do like the save modifiers...I'd really like them back in the game.
How about the following;
Heavy tanks get a 3+ save
Against a penetrating hit, -1 (so 4+)
Against a lance or melta weapon under half range, additional -1 (So 5+)
Against AP 1, an additional -1.

So scat bikes suddenly are not very good at killing heavy tanks, and haywire becomes better at killing transports than heavy tanks as well. Probably how it should be.
This puts lances and melta weapons back in the game as the tank killers of choice, and you probably don't need to put the +1 HP in there.
Str D is still a problem however. I have no idea how to change it.

Martel732 wrote:
The save doesn't make sense against something like haywire grenades. The Russ needs to be deadlier, not impossible to kill. We already have GMCs for that.

Aye, I agree that it needs to be much deadlier but it is a Heavy Tank, and you do expect such a vehicle to actually have some survivability, hence the save.. It eans that your opponent actually has to dedicate some decent AT stuff to deal with the Leman Russ threat of risk them running ramapant.

Tanks shouldn't be getting saves against melta at all. It's so hard to get the melta weapons within range in 7th ed. Even against the IG.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 master of ordinance wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The save doesn't make sense against something like haywire grenades. The Russ needs to be deadlier, not impossible to kill. We already have GMCs for that.

Aye, I agree that it needs to be much deadlier but it is a Heavy Tank, and you do expect such a vehicle to actually have some survivability, hence the save.. It eans that your opponent actually has to dedicate some decent AT stuff to deal with the Leman Russ threat of risk them running ramapant.

I rarely see the survivability of AV 13/14 be a true issue. Str D, sure, but most other weapons really struggle. Even ST 10, because it is usually single shot. It's the fact that the firepower on the thing has been nerfed so hard.

With the proposed system a melta weapon would allow a 6+ save. Reducing the saves from a 3+ to a 4+ standard would remove this.

I do think haywire should allow a save. Haywire and grav weapons are too powerful, or need to work better against GMCs and MCs somehow (ignore FnP on these guys maybe?)

Akiasura wrote:
With the proposed system a melta weapon would allow a 6+ save. Reducing the saves from a 3+ to a 4+ standard would remove this.

I do think haywire should allow a save. Haywire and grav weapons are too powerful, or need to work better against GMCs and MCs somehow (ignore FnP on these guys maybe?)

Grav, yes; it's ranged. Haywire, no. I won't support any nerfs on anything that requires assaulting. Assault is so bad for so many units right now. I have an entire army that can't assault effectively.

Any thoughts on the newIG formations? They look interesting, but as a non-IG player, I'm not sure how good they'll be.

Martel732 wrote:

Akiasura wrote:
With the proposed system a melta weapon would allow a 6+ save. Reducing the saves from a 3+ to a 4+ standard would remove this.

I do think haywire should allow a save. Haywire and grav weapons are too powerful, or need to work better against GMCs and MCs somehow (ignore FnP on these guys maybe?)

Grav, yes; it's ranged. Haywire, no. I won't support any nerfs on anything that requires assaulting. Assault is so bad for so many units right now. I have an entire army that can't assault effectively.

I don't use a lot of haywire personally, but it seems that armies that can use haywire spam it quite a bit. Eldar are possibly the only exception, since firedragons are so good, but I did see a few armies with swooping hawks.
I would rather buff lances and melta. Right now you are better off spamming haywire, grav, or mid strength weapons with high RoF than actual dedicated anti-tank weapons like lances and melta.

Really? AFAIK, most armies don't have that much access to haywire.

Martel732 wrote:
The save doesn't make sense against something like haywire grenades. The Russ needs to be deadlier, not impossible to kill. We already have GMCs for that.

Actually? Yeah, it does.

Russes are supposed to have EMP shielding in place.

Martel732 wrote:Grav, yes; it's ranged. Haywire, no. I won't support any nerfs on anything that requires assaulting. Assault is so bad for so many units right now. I have an entire army that can't assault effectively.

So you'll support nerfs to Grav, a type that essentially gets nerfed by itself when fighting an army with anything higher than a 4+ armor save because it's ranged...but not for Haywire because you think it requires Assaulting?

Dark Eldar, Harlequin, and Skitarii all have ranged Haywire options. Some of which have fairly high ROF as well.

So I run a personal codex that intends to represent light infantry/ long range reconnaissance patrols/groups.

I made an assault squad unit. That unit has camo cloaks, infiltrate, bs4 and range 18 assault 3 lasguns. I changed the vox caster to allow for infinite range instead of order rerolls. Frfsrf works on those assault 3 lasguns as well. The unit was designed to take out other infantry units by flanking around cover and engaging its target at close range. Against tyranids it proved devastating to both gaunts and monsterous creatures due to the frfsrf and take it down orders. Against marines and necrons the unit has failed to do much damage. I quite like the unit that I created as it seems to fufill its purpose nicely, while still having weaknesses,

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Really? AFAIK, most armies don't have that much access to haywire.

Off the top of my head;
Dark eldar use exclusively haywire weapons to take out tanks. Lances are bad and blasters aren't much better. This was the same last codex, where wyches basically spammed haywire to take out tanks.
Eldar use Dragons or Hawks. Dragons are good because everyone has a melta weapon and they are effectively Ap 0, the fact hawks are even considered a viable (and cheaper) alternative says a lot about the strength of haywire.
Skitarri have ranged haywire. They use it exclusively to remove tanks it seems.

As I said, armies that do have access tend to spam it. I can't think of many armies that have access and leave it at home, unless they have Str D or something unique like fire dragons. Even then, they get taken.
Grav weapons are also not common across the game, but the armies that can take them, do tend to spam them for similar reasons. They are just way to effective against their chosen targets.

If haywire had a concussive effect on GMCs/MCs only, but had to roll a save against heavy tanks (not transports or skimmers) I think they'd be balanced and considered instead of auto includes for armies that have access. It'd be nice if a small unit of hawks could target a wraithknight with haywire and reduce its speed, or subtract it's Bs/Ws by 1 for each haywire hit. Or remove it's ability to stomp unless it passes a check of some kind.
GMCs need counters. Currently it seems to be other GMCs and grav.

 jreilly89 wrote:
Any thoughts on the newIG formations? They look interesting, but as a non-IG player, I'm not sure how good they'll be.

It's going to be entirely dependent, in my opinion, upon how the as yet unseen "Cadian Detachment" rules define Infantry Squads for the purposes of the Emperor's Shield Infantry Company and how points heavy the Relics are going to be.

The Infantry Company gaining FRFSRF for every Lasgun armed model? That's big; not terrifyingly big--but big. Detachment-wide rerolls of "1s" on HSL and Lasguns? Also big.

The Artillery Company granting Orders to the artillery and vox-caster equipped models being able to grant Twin-Linked to anything firing at their targets and the ability for the Tank Commander to get a Relic that allows him to issue Orders to all of his accompanying Russes in the Armoured Company formation? That's huuuuge.

Yes, good point actually, the Leman Russ is EM hardened meaning that Haywire should have little to no effect unless the Russ has already been damaged.

The new formations dont look too bad, personally I am looking at that triple Baneblade formation:

>3 Baneblade chassis variants of any type and an Enginseer
>>Enginseer gains a +2 to all repair rolls
>>Enemy units hit by three primary weapons from this formation must take a morale test on 4D6
>>Everything within 12" of the tanks counts as Difficult Terrain for enemy units

I sent a link to it to my certain SM playing friend. His response: "No chance of anyone letting you use that"

His response after being told that it is a formation and he has no say as to whether I can bring it or not: "Well it will cost you loads of points and time and its not really worth it." followed by: "Guard have been given OP as feth formations."


All those times he has brought that Librarian Conclave, all those surprise Primarchs, all those triple Vindicator spam games..... I will be avenged

 master of ordinance wrote:
Yes, good point actually, the Leman Russ is EM hardened meaning that Haywire should have little to no effect unless the Russ has already been damaged.

And every other vehicle isn't? Of course is can resist it, just like all vehicles, that's why you roll and it's not just an auto-destroyed.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Yes, good point actually, the Leman Russ is EM hardened meaning that Haywire should have little to no effect unless the Russ has already been damaged.

And every other vehicle isn't? Of course is can resist it, just like all vehicles, that's why you roll and it's not just an auto-destroyed.

No but the whole point is that the Russ is designed to be nearly completely immune to EMP effects meaning that unless the defensive systems are damaged Haywire should do nothing against them. A simple 5+ save is surely not asking too much.

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Yes, good point actually, the Leman Russ is EM hardened meaning that Haywire should have little to no effect unless the Russ has already been damaged.

And every other vehicle isn't? Of course is can resist it, just like all vehicles, that's why you roll and it's not just an auto-destroyed.

No but the whole point is that the Russ is designed to be nearly completely immune to EMP effects meaning that unless the defensive systems are damaged Haywire should do nothing against them. A simple 5+ save is surely not asking too much.

So what about necron vehicles, they are so advances that the imperium might as well be using WWI tanks. You don't think that they would have, at minimum, the same level of protection? Or Eldar tanks? And what about SM heavy tanks, like the LR? Surely they would have installed the same sort of protections on to the vaunted land raider that they do a lowly russ. Or tau vehicles, they use EM granades, so surely they would use EM shielding to defend against it? The point being that there is very little reason that they russ, specifically, needs haywire protection. If haywire is too strong, that's a different problem entirely.

Honestly, I'm not sure it's special rules that the russ needs. Maybe make then 14/13/11, 14/12/11, or something? That would make them pretty much immune to small arms fire, but dedicated anti-tank weapons would not be effected.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Yes, good point actually, the Leman Russ is EM hardened meaning that Haywire should have little to no effect unless the Russ has already been damaged.

And every other vehicle isn't? Of course is can resist it, just like all vehicles, that's why you roll and it's not just an auto-destroyed.

No but the whole point is that the Russ is designed to be nearly completely immune to EMP effects meaning that unless the defensive systems are damaged Haywire should do nothing against them. A simple 5+ save is surely not asking too much.

So what about necron vehicles, they are so advances that the imperium might as well be using WWI tanks. You don't think that they would have, at minimum, the same level of protection? Or Eldar tanks? And what about SM heavy tanks, like the LR? Surely they would have installed the same sort of protections on to the vaunted land raider that they do a lowly russ. Or tau vehicles, they use EM granades, so surely they would use EM shielding to defend against it? The point being that there is very little reason that they russ, specifically, needs haywire protection. If haywire is too strong, that's a different problem entirely.

Honestly, I'm not sure it's special rules that the russ needs. Maybe make then 14/13/11, 14/12/11, or something? That would make them pretty much immune to small arms fire, but dedicated anti-tank weapons would not be effected.

Necron and Eldar tanks are skimmers, which shows their advanced technology just fine (and necron have extra rules). They can fly around and shoot their weapons more effectively than Imperial armies can, and can jink for a really nice cover save as well.
Because they are flying fast moving balls of death, haywire/penetrating shot is more likely to cause them a complication and thus they do not get an armor save. Skimmers are already very good.

The problem with the armor values you propose is you can still rear armor drop pod PG the russ off the table with even the slightest amount of luck (I think 2HP are the average). It still explodes to grav or haywire (which ignore the armor values). LCs are terrible against that front armor, and are usually too slow to reach side armor. Scat bikes would still go for the side armor and just hope for 6's (though a 13 would prevent that from working).
So you still have the best anti-tank weapons being haywire by a huge amount and grav. Lances and LCs are still terrible against tanks.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The save doesn't make sense against something like haywire grenades. The Russ needs to be deadlier, not impossible to kill. We already have GMCs for that.

Actually? Yeah, it does.

Russes are supposed to have EMP shielding in place.

Martel732 wrote:Grav, yes; it's ranged. Haywire, no. I won't support any nerfs on anything that requires assaulting. Assault is so bad for so many units right now. I have an entire army that can't assault effectively.

So you'll support nerfs to Grav, a type that essentially gets nerfed by itself when fighting an army with anything higher than a 4+ armor save because it's ranged...but not for Haywire because you think it requires Assaulting?

Dark Eldar, Harlequin, and Skitarii all have ranged Haywire options. Some of which have fairly high ROF as well.

I haven't seen ranged haywire before. I'll have to reconsider.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Yes, good point actually, the Leman Russ is EM hardened meaning that Haywire should have little to no effect unless the Russ has already been damaged.

And every other vehicle isn't? Of course is can resist it, just like all vehicles, that's why you roll and it's not just an auto-destroyed.

No but the whole point is that the Russ is designed to be nearly completely immune to EMP effects meaning that unless the defensive systems are damaged Haywire should do nothing against them. A simple 5+ save is surely not asking too much.

So what about necron vehicles, they are so advances that the imperium might as well be using WWI tanks. You don't think that they would have, at minimum, the same level of protection? Or Eldar tanks? And what about SM heavy tanks, like the LR? Surely they would have installed the same sort of protections on to the vaunted land raider that they do a lowly russ. Or tau vehicles, they use EM granades, so surely they would use EM shielding to defend against it? The point being that there is very little reason that they russ, specifically, needs haywire protection. If haywire is too strong, that's a different problem entirely.

Honestly, I'm not sure it's special rules that the russ needs. Maybe make then 14/13/11, 14/12/11, or something? That would make them pretty much immune to small arms fire, but dedicated anti-tank weapons would not be effected.

The Imperium IS using WWI tanks. Look at the Land Raider. They also have no targeting systems, as the BS of the firer is used, unmodified. What a joke.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
"Lances and LCs are still terrible against tanks."

Because single shot kills have been replaced by HP stripping.

14/13/11 should be the norm anyway. The Leman Russ is currently a joke of a tank.

 master of ordinance wrote:
The new formations dont look too bad, personally I am looking at that triple Baneblade formation:

The Tank formations are OK. The Infantry is unplayable. Guard are going to be pure armor.

The problem is that IKTs do the same thing better for the same points.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
The new formations dont look too bad, personally I am looking at that triple Baneblade formation:

The Tank formations are OK. The Infantry is unplayable. Guard are going to be pure armor.

The problem is that IKTs do the same thing better for the same points.

We can but hope for the new codex. In all honesty that alone will make or break us.

fingaz cross'd ya gitz!

If the new codex is anything but an improvement my Guard are probably being shelved, I just can't keep getting my hopes up only for them to be shattered.

If it flops, my IG will call an Earthshaker strike to commit Sudoku.