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Concerning Salamanders I can't recommend an Invictus Warsuit with flame cannon and the strat Relentless Determination enough. Yes, using it on some Aggressors is the golden child but mine keep getting focus fired and have yet to shoot once. Which is fine by me as seeing an entire army's shooting on ~100-500 pts if you include a Repulsor is amazing.

Though the second trait of making ap-1 be ap 0 hasn't tripped once as most marines I've played become Tactical so it feels underwhelming. I am tempted to dust off my drop pods and use a Successor chapter to get the rerolls and +3 range to watch the world burn.

One last thought being that the meta in my flgs is castling, the psychic power Flaming Blast has been nice.

tarrant wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Khornatedemon wrote:

 Smirrors wrote:
I am thinking of getting a Relic Deredeo as a centre piece for my army with its 5++ aura to give my IH airwing some early protection. With ironstone and duty eternal its only marginally weaker than a leviathan when it gets shot. Worthy idea?

I feel like the planes need that invul against a shooting army otherwise they are pretty fragile. I have seen a few lists run without it so I dont have any practical experience yet.

I may be wrong but I believe the deredeo invul you have to be fully within 6" to get it so it probably wont be able to cover many planes.

That being said I'm really interested in them in IF. Making the autocannons dmg 3 is very nice and you can protect a key unit or 2 with the invul.

You know what fits in their aura fully? 3 Ven Gun Dreads. I did that and it was buckets of fun.

What load out on all the Dreads? I have 3 ven's and was thing of getting a deredeo

I was doing Autocannons for a while. Then I switched to using the TLLas and ML because that's what Deathwatch are stuck with. Ya know, for reasons.

Pop the Strat to reroll 1s to hit and nobody in that circle is ever missing for all intents and purposes.

This is exactly why I think things like autocannon are what you want, rather than just going for 1-damage stuff. It’s why I included riptides in the calculations I did. Killing one of those with heavy bolters will take too long.

Plasma can definitely do a job. I like rapid fire hellblasters much more than heavy ones though. Coming out of an impulsor they look dangerous.

As a general rule though, plasma units tend to be glass hammers and/or need to get close to the enemy for best effect. And clearly they lose a lot of power against flyers and stuff with invulnerable saves, making them inconsistent. Right now I’d find it hard to recommend any plasma unit for a TAC list.

DanielFM wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

DanielFM wrote:

Xenomancer, -1 to hit exist, but it's not everywhere (and it´s very likely to become even more rare when all -1 to hit blanket rules get standarized with Raven Guard's one). It's mainly on flyers and infantry, and none of those are the objective of this unit (nor this analysis).
I will add high ROF units in my monster analysis later, to see if they are effective enough to make anti-monster not needed.

-1 to hit rules are explicitly not being standardized to Corax Pattern Shenanigans. Alaitoc already got its PA update, and is untouched.

That's some serious bs by GW, then. One of the most broken mechanics in the game and they leave it untouched while toning it down for a single army. Great job guys.

You didn't seriously expect GW to standardise?-) Like they standardised rerolls when Cawl came with his reroll that allows rerolling even with modifiers?-) Or like FOR SURE plasma gets standardised to work on unmodified 1 when ork overheat was that. Everybody was 110% sure that's coming in CA2018.

GW has long abandoned any kind of standardisation or internal logic.

How are peeps finding Impulsors and Invictors?

I've one of each on the way for my nascent army, mostly because I really like the models.

From my uneducated perspective, I'd imagine a single Impulsor is a bit naff, as it'll just get picked off.

But I'm thinking perhaps three or so, with transportees could prove a nasty flanking force?

And what upgrades are people giving them, and why?

My biggest issue with the impulser is we wanted a rhino transport for primaris and they gave us a razorback. That doesn't mean it doesn't have its uses, but it's not what people want lol. Give it another 2 years and we will have a new release with the rhino we all want in it finally.

Otherwise they are not bad.

 mrwhoop wrote:
Concerning Salamanders I can't recommend an Invictus Warsuit with flame cannon and the strat Relentless Determination enough. Yes, using it on some Aggressors is the golden child but mine keep getting focus fired and have yet to shoot once. Which is fine by me as seeing an entire army's shooting on ~100-500 pts if you include a Repulsor is amazing.

Though the second trait of making ap-1 be ap 0 hasn't tripped once as most marines I've played become Tactical so it feels underwhelming. I am tempted to dust off my drop pods and use a Successor chapter to get the rerolls and +3 range to watch the world burn.

One last thought being that the meta in my flgs is castling, the psychic power Flaming Blast has been nice.

I was also thinking about the idea of using 2-3 Invictus Warsuits to draw fire in my Salamanders army. It seems like putting something like that into the front line turn one seems like it would create a situation where the opponent can't ignore them and has to focus fire them, thus allowing a turn or two for the transports with the flamer guys to move close.

But maybe only inexperienced players will actually be fooled by the distraction of the warsuits. It seems like expert players would know right away that the real threat is in the transports, and would try to neutralize the war suits somehow (like tagging them in close combat with sacrificial or tarpit units) and then focus fire where it matters, on stopping the transports.

So that's my question: is the threat of 2-3 Invictor Warsuits with Salamanders-buffed flamer strats enough to *force* an opponent who knows what he's doing to ignore the transports for a turn or two?

Warsuits are very aggressively costed for how much damage they can deal so you cant really ignore them. MA makes those 5 melee attacks hit harder than most smash captains. And the flamer + all its shots makes it really hard to tag in melee. You need more than just a 10 man infantry squad for each. Just shooting + melee kills a 10 man squad before morale.

And with strats you can get 12 flamer hits that deal mortal wounds on 4+. That is really dangerous on a 10" move model and 12" range flamer. With only the + str stratagem an Invictor deals slightly above 10 wounds to t8 3+ in melee as well.

You cant ignore it at all unless you can tarpit it with something like plaguebearers.

Its more like the flamer guys in transports that are the distraction. Dont see how they would be more of a threat. Them you could easily screen with some cheap infantry units so they dont get close to flame anything good while the invictor can flame screens and then charge and hit really hard whats behind. That infiltrate deployment with 10" move makes the invictor much harder to stop.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
How are peeps finding Impulsors and Invictors?

I've one of each on the way for my nascent army, mostly because I really like the models.

From my uneducated perspective, I'd imagine a single Impulsor is a bit naff, as it'll just get picked off.

But I'm thinking perhaps three or so, with transportees could prove a nasty flanking force?

And what upgrades are people giving them, and why?

There's buzz on the Internet about Impulsor spam--that if you take 7 or 8 of them, with as many guns as you can pack on them (but not the shield) and just fill them with intercessors, or even use them empty, then that's a lot of firepower that can just overwhelm opponents' anti-vehicle shooting. Most of the buzz I've heard is, obviously, go go Iron Hands because of the advantages in the damage brackets.

Short breakdown vid of the impulsor options if it's of use to anyone:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1Akf6AgFPU

The short version is that all the loadouts seem pretty viable (including no top hatch weapon) aside from not wanting to have more than one or two of the orbital comms array impulsors at max.

I still have to assemble my two impulsors, but my intended role is to use them as assault-harassment units with the 4++. They basically do the same thing 3-man bike squads do, but way tougher.

I'll put hellblasters in mine, which seems like the most obvious choice. Jump forward 14", dump out the hellblasters, and then spend the rest of the game ping-ponging around in the enemy backline bumping into things and stopping them from shooting.
The Tactical Withdraw chapter trait makes them hilarious at this.
This is what the rhino is best at, and the impulsor just dials that up to 11. It's crazy fast, can fly, can fallback and shoot, and can be equipped with a 4++ for real annoying durability for a distraction unit. 100ish points is pretty good for that sort of disruption.

4++ is a trap on the impuslor. For 5 points you can more double the units firepower. or for 20 points you can increase your durability by maybe 50% or 0 % in a lot of situations. You can run around with a 2+ save with stealthy and it's cheaper. 4++ is useless unless you are transporting hell blasters which is sadly...also useless.
Sadly in both them games I've played both my impulsors they have been destroyed turn 1 before I could even use them. However - they are literally the cheapest unit in my army so...It means I am doing something right if I am winning...going second...and they are attacking my weakest unit. I think an impuslor is about equal to an intercessor unit of 5 man in firepower and it's way more durable for about the same points. They are totally spam-able. I think armies of 6+ impulsor are going to be pretty common.

The missile isn't a terrible choice ether I just think skytalon is a much better deal.

I wouldn’t say useless, but I definitely wouldn’t use it too often. I was contemplating a WS list idea with something like Khan and a banner in an Impulsor, so I’d prob do 4++ on his and then the 5pt gun on the others.

You could do Mortal Wound spam with them at least. Get Huron, a Damocles, one of those new vehicles, and then be sure to cast Orbital Bombardment. Something might die or get hurt I guess?


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Oh and don't forget Imperial Fists getting a Warlord trait doing the same thing.

bort wrote:
I wouldn’t say useless, but I definitely wouldn’t use it too often. I was contemplating a WS list idea with something like Khan and a banner in an Impulsor, so I’d prob do 4++ on his and then the 5pt gun on the others.

That makes sense - the issue is there are so many good ap-1 or 2 anti tank weapons that you'd be getting a 4+ save for anyways.

I haven’t decided on list if I swap yet, but I’m definitely thinking I might go back to WS over RG for any sort of midfield/assault style. Keep feeling like RG is great for starting exactly where you want to be and then just being mediocre and foot slogging onwards. WS need an extra turn to move up, but hit like a truck once stuck in and can reposition faster.

Only thing (beyond the obvious Master of Ambush) I wish I could use as WS is an avoid overwatch trait/relic, I hate relying on a psychic power. Which is why I was eyeing Impulsors over full infantry again, give me something to charge in first if necessary.

Another simpleton’s Impulsor question.

Seen a comment or two about the Skytalon array being better than the Belicastus array.

As an old school n00b, I’ve always favoured flexible firepower. I get that the missile array is neither Herman nor Sherman, but to my mind that’s a good thing.

I’m also aware people don’t favour the Ork Squig Buggy precisely because it’s neither Herman nor Sherman.

So I played a game earlier tonight with my Black Templars vs Black legion. I played as a imperial fist successor chapter with 5+++ vs mortal wounds and +1 to advance / charge. Not the strongest setup but more in line for black templars than I think we currently have.

2 things I noticed real quick. I tried some stuff out for fun just to see how it worked.

Relic contemptor dreadnought with 2 assault cannons is just nasty in imperial fists. 12 str 7 ap-2 2dmg vs vehicles? Oh yeah, it was a serious threat to any vehicles within 24".

Smash chaplain with power fist, jump pack, mantra of strength, and fist of terra relic is very good. 6 attacks at str 10 ap-3 1+d3 dmg on the charge? That's enough to make most units stop and take notice.

Also a side thing, on the repulser executioner, I ran mine with the plasma cannon, in imperial fists this thing is also quite nasty. 2d6 str 9 ap-5 3 flat vs vehicles? This thing can just blow enemy vehicles away! I prefer it to the super las cannon, random shots and 3 flat dmg I find is easier to manipulate than 4 flat shots and d6 (min 3) dmg. You roll a 4 and a 1 for number of shots and a single cp can make that number of shots go much higher than rerolling a damage roll on the other side of things. But maybe that's just me that thinks this?

Heres my Salamanders list that im taking into my LGS today. List is pretty much entirely reliant on Sworm protectors to function at all. I think 2 battalions is the sweet spot for a list like this. Brayarth is a threat that can't be ignored, as in if you ignore him you wont be able to target the giant blob of death that is behind him. Which i think is enough to justify his cost. And of course there are some armies that will literally just fold to not being able to shoot anything.

Any suggestions? Flex slots are definitely my biker captain, im not convinced of his efficacy yet. Plan is with him is to hunt down infantry units and the like. Agatone feels a little Gratuitous when everything already is wounding on 2s/3s against everything anyways.

We always give brayarth a warlord trait. I think agaisnt executioner castles its worth giving him 11 toughness, and agaisnt everyone else Lord of fire is ideal, as hes the most reliable platform to put it on and give the greatest reach for that aura.

Leviathan is hard, hes got great guns, and is my main target for fires of battle, and is as far as the list actually goes its my only source of s8 long range firepower.

Against orks i had a lot of fun disintegrating everything

Mandragola wrote:

Plasma can definitely do a job. I like rapid fire hellblasters much more than heavy ones though. Coming out of an impulsor they look dangerous.

As a general rule though, plasma units tend to be glass hammers and/or need to get close to the enemy for best effect. And clearly they lose a lot of power against flyers and stuff with invulnerable saves, making them inconsistent. Right now I’d find it hard to recommend any plasma unit for a TAC list.

I think Plasma Inceptors falling turn 2 close to a Phobos Captain (Chapter Master if you want) with Eye of Hypnoth could do a lot of work against different targets, relatively safely. I'm starting to like them more than Rapidfire Hellblasters.
Plus, my single Impulsor (I know, too few) can transport 5 veteran Intercessors with a thunder hammer and a Librarian for Null Zone.

Third place Jesus H Christ is that strategem overpowered. Leviathan isn’t worth it. Brayarth most certainly is. Flex slots currently are, number of termies, 10 is where I want to be at I’m thinking lightning claws for some. 4/6 split possibly. Captain on bike might be going, scouts are definitely being upgraded, rapier is being upgraded, I want to stick a tfc in the list, and I’m cutting 2 scout squads for MSU infiltrators. Severely limits the range at what you can deepstrike, beyond that we got room for a harath, which is neat adding more survability to terminators. A techmarine as a second relic holder and a unit that will make killing brayarth a much bigger hassle.

Which strat?

Sworn protectors. 2 CP, use at the start of the opponents shooting phase pick a Salamanders infantry unit, other infantry units within 6" cannot be the target of attacks unless the are the closest visible model

I'd still expect a serious errata to the Stratagem soon.

Ahh, yeah. Wasn’t sure since you were also talking about Breyarth.

Not sure if cunning or not.....

But I understand (and have checked with gaming group) that I can field a Dedicated Transport choice for each other unit in my army, regardless of whether said other units can embark on that or any other transport.

With that in mind, are Impulsors with the extra shooty worth taking as rapid response units - intended to zip about and tackle deep strikers, or provide LoS blocking?

I mean, they’re not exactly Tough As Old Boots, but with the shield generator, they’re at the very least a Pain In The Arse to shift, whilst still packing fairly decent anti-infantry firepower?

The idea does appeal to me, but wondering wot Dakka finks?


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Basically a role broadly similar to Bikes, but with added LoS blocking advantage - and indeed charge blocking.

Torn on that idea over which ‘turret’ option to go for. All have some form of appeal, and different applications, from dropping Mortal Wound Deff, making them harder to wreck, and added fire, whether dedicated or flexible (still more persuaded by the Missile Array’s flex here, as I need to worry less about what might drop out of the Sky).

I got the impression that an army of IH Impulsors with the gun turrets is considered super competitive. I'd be all over that if it were Rhinos instead of Impulsors. I just can't bring myself to buy 8 Impulsors to replace the 9 Rhinos I own to do the same army type.

It’s one thing to hear they’re good, applied well. And another to understand the why, and that’s what I’m lacking.

Whilst well out of practice, I’ve always had a knack for writing a list I’m filthy with, and indeed often benefits from codex changes, possibly because I’m too stubborn to listen to conventional wisdom

But Impulsors do seem very handy in a scrap. A proper IFV. with guns meant to support their passengers, but can be used as a proper fighting vehicle.

Trouble is, my tactics and strategies tend to only catch out good players once, maybe twice!

So for a pure Primaris army, are Iron Hands or Ultra Marines the better choice? UM seem better for firepower but IH seems better for survivability, especially if you're running a heavily mechanized force like I am hoping to.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
It’s one thing to hear they’re good, applied well. And another to understand the why, and that’s what I’m lacking.

Just look at its datasheet. Its T7 W11 for 102 pts., with ironhail heavy stubber, twin SB, and bellicastus missile array, which has 3 different profiles to shoot with. Enemy charge is -2. It has FLY, so it can still shoot after falling back. As IH it still shoots at full BS with 3 wounds left, and can re-roll 1s to hit for everything, except the SB. It ignores the penalty for moving and firing heavy weapons. And 6 primaris models can still disembark after it has moved. Bring 5 hellblasters with a captain into rapid fire range, overcharge, and shoot. Or disembark 6 aggressors, preferably ultramarines, which count as stationary, during the tactical doctrine. Or move it, and disembark 6 intercessors with auto bolt rifles at 12", and play the auto hit stratagem.