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Bold or Stupid wrote:

Almarine wrote:So what's going on in this thread guys?

Worth reading 66 pages?

I've read it so it must be worth it right

It took me a few hours, but I have.

ColdSadHungry wrote:Are you saying the the Crucible affects all models in a unit? This is what it says in the new rulebook:

'If the unit is subject to a rule that affects psykers, the
controlling player chooses a focus model to be
affected instead of the unit. If a psychic unit is
accompanied by independent characters (or
another unit with the ability to join units), these
models count as separate units for the purpose of
this rule. For example, they use psychic powers of
their own separately, cannot be picked as the
focus model and do not contribute to the number
of models in the psychic unit if the effect of a
power depends on it.'

One model per squad in range would be affected basically, just as it is now. I know there's not much faith in GW around here but there's no way they'd create a mechanic that can eliminate an entire army on one failed morale test. That's why it doesn't work in 5th and doesn't in 6th either - it would just be too crazy.

I'm saying it works on Psyker vehicles (again). And all GK vehicles are psykers (except for the Chimera I think).

I think he's referring to the ability for Crucible to effect walkers now - Grey knight dreads are psykers, as are blood angel Librarian dreadnaughts.


Edit- Ninja'd!

Mandor wrote:

ColdSadHungry wrote:Are you saying the the Crucible affects all models in a unit? This is what it says in the new rulebook:

'If the unit is subject to a rule that affects psykers, the
controlling player chooses a focus model to be
affected instead of the unit. If a psychic unit is
accompanied by independent characters (or
another unit with the ability to join units), these
models count as separate units for the purpose of
this rule. For example, they use psychic powers of
their own separately, cannot be picked as the
focus model and do not contribute to the number
of models in the psychic unit if the effect of a
power depends on it.'

One model per squad in range would be affected basically, just as it is now. I know there's not much faith in GW around here but there's no way they'd create a mechanic that can eliminate an entire army on one failed morale test. That's why it doesn't work in 5th and doesn't in 6th either - it would just be too crazy.

I'm saying it works on Psyker vehicles (again). And all GK vehicles are psykers (except for the Chimera I think).

Ah, forgive me then. I just had flash backs to all those arguments where people tried to convince everyone that the crucible took out entire squads and thought 'Oh no! Not this again!'. If it affects vehicles, then so be it. The GK took a bit of a nerf in this new book anyway and I don't have to defend my choice to play GK as much since people wouldn't be able to claim it's an auto win anymore.

I'm still curious to try out my Death Wing with 6th ed. From what I"ve read Terminators are going to die a lot faster, has anyone played 6th with Terminators yet?

ColdSadHungry wrote:Ah, forgive me then. I just had flash backs to all those arguments where people tried to convince everyone that the crucible took out entire squads and thought 'Oh no! Not this again!'. If it affects vehicles, then so be it. The GK took a bit of a nerf in this new book anyway and I don't have to defend my choice to play GK as much since people wouldn't be able to claim it's an auto win anymore.

No worries. I'm sure that if this is real, this particular jewel won't make the final cut. We're still talking about GW and their poster boys, after all.

Mandor wrote:I'm saying it works on Psyker vehicles (again). And all GK vehicles are psykers (except for the Chimera I think).

Yeah, seems like it. Still makes the wargear so situational though. You have get close to the GKs without getting shot up (and Coteaz has Overwatch now) or singled out with Directed Hits. Then you have to open it and hope you roll decent on your 3d6" range check. And even then, with a Leadership of 10, vehicles will only fail ~8% of the time.

It's good for a laugh every now and again, but it's certainly not some super counter against all Grey Knight armies.

Stationary vehicles have double MT'ing, and in most cases will be spliting there fire. If an infantry squad stays stationary, then do they get double MT'ing? (And therefore could split fire).

So an example: a squad of spacemarines with a melta, combimelta, and missile launcher fire at a Devilfish and wreak it with the meltas and missile launcher, then proceed to use the rest of the squads bolters to turn the tau inside that just disembarked into tuna?

And if not, would standing on an objective with fire at will stratagem in play allow you to do this?

Redemption wrote:

Mandor wrote:I'm saying it works on Psyker vehicles (again). And all GK vehicles are psykers (except for the Chimera I think).

Yeah, seems like it. Still makes the wargear so situational though. You have get close to the GKs without getting shot up (and Coteaz has Overwatch now) or singled out with Directed Hits. Then you have to open it and hope you roll decent on your 3d6" range check. And even then, with a Leadership of 10, vehicles will only fail ~8% of the time.

It's good for a laugh every now and again, but it's certainly not some super counter against all Grey Knight armies.

Agreed. I just thought it was funny after all the discussion on Dakka about GK (vehicles) vs CoM and the GK FAQ afterwards. And even if this holds up, it won't be as dramatic as in Fifth, because a transported unit can still get out of a transport when it's removed from play (sorry, Lukas).



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Deutchistan_General wrote:Stationary vehicles have double MT'ing, and in most cases will be spliting there fire. If an infantry squad stays stationary, then do they get double MT'ing? (And therefore could split fire).

So an example: a squad of spacemarines with a melta, combimelta, and missile launcher fire at a Devilfish and wreak it with the meltas and missile launcher, then proceed to use the rest of the squads bolters to turn the tau inside that just disembarked into tuna?

And if not, would standing on an objective with fire at will stratagem in play allow you to do this?

The squad would be able to split fire, as long as all or some models in it have MT in the first place (which infantry don't have normally). I'm sure all shooting still happens at the same time though, so shooting up a transported unit with the same squad still won't work.

Deutchistan_General wrote:Stationary vehicles have double MT'ing, and in most cases will be spliting there fire. If an infantry squad stays stationary, then do they get double MT'ing? (And therefore could split fire).

So an example: a squad of spacemarines with a melta, combimelta, and missile launcher fire at a Devilfish and wreak it with the meltas and missile launcher, then proceed to use the rest of the squads bolters to turn the tau inside that just disembarked into tuna?

And if not, would standing on an objective with fire at will stratagem in play allow you to do this?

Well, first of all, infantry squads don't get Multi-Targetting unless they have some special rule. But in the case your squad did have it, all shooting of a unit happens simultaneously, so you have to declare your targets before you roll any dice. As an embarked squad cannot be targetted, it isn't a valid target.

Deutchistan_General wrote:And if not, would standing on an objective with fire at will stratagem in play allow you to do this?

If they were blocking the access points to begin with, they'd get DF/CbC against the former occupants anyway.

Overwatch is only triggered when a unit ends a Move action within 12". Emergency Disembarkation isn't a move action, so no.

Ok played two games with Tau vs Eldar and Marines.
Both rather small games, 1000p and 500p.

Standart missions with objectives and all.

Game vs eldar was really fun, some great changes,
it takes some time get used to Banshees charging 16".. ><
Rangers are pretty cool too.
It is really really hard to miss shots with a fire prism.
Jetbikes are pretty hard to hit.


On the Tau side:
Had a list with an Ethereal, some Pathfinders with Rail Rifles, Broadsides with Advanced Stabilization Systems
and Commander with Command and Control Node. (rest was FW, Kroot, some battlesuits)

Rapid fire while on the move is nice to have, but kinda makes Pulse Carabines useless.
Battlesuits with the relentless rule are also cool.
I likes the 2d6 fall back, makes battlesuits actually more interesting.

Railguns are awesome, might even be abit too strong... (see the marine battle)
I can see turnament lists consisting of 6 Broadsides with Shild drones and Stabilizers and 9 Sniper Drones.

Did not really use any directed hits vs Eldar, so the ccn was kinda useless.
The Ethereal died rather late in the game, but he really pays off.

Also the Fire at will stratagem is kinda hard to use. Not really benefited me in this game.


Vs Marines..
Well, not really much to say there, 500p marines with two 10 man tactical squads.
500p Tau: one Broadside with ass, Pathfindes with Rail Rifles, two FWsquads, Commander and Ethereal.

Marine took first round, I took the Gravity Traps to keep them at distance.
My opponent made some serious mistakes with formations.
Two railrifles and my Broadside wiped them off the board by turn two... no casulties on the Tau side barring the Ethereal.
edit: (oh and the battlefield was stuffed with terrain pieces, so enough cover for the marines)

Yes it was mainly the fault of the marine player, but still such power against marines,
I doubt they implement that into the final rulebook. ><

I love seeing lesser used stuff become good randomly with this. Rail Rifle pathfinders have a great model and nobody plays it.

Deutchistan_General wrote: full erect

Yes I like the new rules too, but settle down...

IPS wrote:... no casulties on the Tau side barring the Ethereal.

Did you purposely send him to his death?

Rail rifles hit all the models in a line at s6 ap3 correct? and ap3 now ignores FnP? And cover saves are mostly 5+ now? Yeah, that sounds like a pretty solid unit to me. Sniper Drones are going to be a great tactical choice while broadsides take apart the tanks. No more +1 for ap-1 but you can explode tanks with them if you roll a natural 6 on the damage chart (something only AP 1 weapons can do vs tanks).

Okay, thanks for the clarification (and now I know that I need to equip tau sergeants with some cool wargear)

Also, it apears that if you have the targeting array, you no longer get +1 bs, but always count target as stationary. I am asuming it doesn't work when targeting fliers with ion cannons, I would assume that you need AA as well. Or is that a different upgrade competely?

And on the topic of fliers, the way rail rules are described, I can target some infantry squad in the distance, roll the scatter, and have the line pass through the target that I really want to hit, a flier. That just sounds unrealistic to me, and even as a tau player, I hope that gets FAQed. Even jinking vechicals are hit. Something is op about the rail rules I think. I read the rules, I have them on my laptop, but sometimes I miss parts of an 130ish page rule book.

Also, the hydra, if I remember correctly (I don't have them in front of me now, they are at home) hydras AA rule counts them as EV 3. It also has the targeting special rule, which counts the target as stationary when it fires. Do those stack, or does one apply to fliers and one apply to ground units? (I hope the second one, or else hydras hitting fliers on a 3+, 4 twinlinked S7 shots!?! No one will want to verse my OP hydra flack tank. Hitting on a 4+ is good enough for me)

The Dwarf Wolf wrote:As all the community right now (except for the change alergics maybe), i want this to be true, and i want it to be great and epic. It would be a great way or GW to change the situtation, and i would even start to like price hikes if that occured. Start Believing, we are seeying light in the future...

I can't believe I would be saying this, but if this is true and it is 6th edition, i can swallow the GW price hikes as well. That would be collecting Tyranids and starting a new army for my son, Necrons with our Dark Angels.

If these rumours are false, I will not be able to swallow the GW price hikes. And if the 6th edtion rules are basically like 3rd to 4th to 5th, then it's goodbye 40K and move onto LotR and Hordes.

I am kinda curious how daemons really work in this edition. Alot of their power relied on them being able to get stuck in deep and close. Now, by these rules, everyone can shoot at every unit that deepstrikes in 12". That's instant death to every unit now, no? They'll be so whittled down that even being able to assault from the deepstrike won't matter. It was one thing before when you deepstruck everyone and then went to the next phase. This seems like as they drop in, they get shot... killing the Fateweaver bubble in a ways.

They don't have strong enough shooting to compensate for deepstriking back and moving up for the fight in later turns. Even the Strike Force for them doesn't matter as much if everything gets shot on landing.

Alot of people would say just DS out of 12" but there are too many fast vehicles and units to prevent that without being pushed to the back table edge.

I mean, let's face it, every edition has to have someone be the worst army. Daemons turn?

And the deepstrike rules really kill Drop Pod and DOA armies too by the looks of it... but at least those armies have other viable builds.

Thoughts?

CT GAMER wrote:

Deutchistan_General wrote: full erect

Yes I like the new rules too, but settle down...

Sigh, fine.
*goes along to make a few jokes like this*
[youtube] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ly84CagzobU&feature=youtube_gdata_player[/youtube]

Walls wrote:I am kinda curious how daemons really work in this edition. Alot of their power relied on them being able to get stuck in deep and close. Now, by these rules, everyone can shoot at every unit that deepstrikes in 12". That's instant death to every unit now, no? They'll be so whittled down that even being able to assault from the deepstrike won't matter. It was one thing before when you deepstruck everyone and then went to the next phase. This seems like as they drop in, they get shot... killing the Fateweaver bubble in a ways.

They don't have strong enough shooting to compensate for deepstriking back and moving up for the fight in later turns. Even the Strike Force for them doesn't matter as much if everything gets shot on landing.

Alot of people would say just DS out of 12" but there are too many fast vehicles and units to prevent that without being pushed to the back table edge.

I mean, let's face it, every edition has to have someone be the worst army. Daemons turn?

And the deepstrike rules really kill Drop Pod and DOA armies too by the looks of it... but at least those armies have other viable builds.

Thoughts?

Not sure how it works. I thought there was no "you go, I go". so I can't see how they can shoot you when you deepstrike unless they say you can shoot your opponent on his turn. Also another thing to think about is if this is done, when does this shooting happen? On the opponents turn? If so when, before the DS unit gets to assault or after they assault when the shooting phase happens?

Walls wrote:I am kinda curious how daemons really work in this edition. Alot of their power relied on them being able to get stuck in deep and close. Now, by these rules, everyone can shoot at every unit that deepstrikes in 12". That's instant death to every unit now, no? They'll be so whittled down that even being able to assault from the deepstrike won't matter. It was one thing before when you deepstruck everyone and then went to the next phase. This seems like as they drop in, they get shot... killing the Fateweaver bubble in a ways.

They don't have strong enough shooting to compensate for deepstriking back and moving up for the fight in later turns. Even the Strike Force for them doesn't matter as much if everything gets shot on landing.

Alot of people would say just DS out of 12" but there are too many fast vehicles and units to prevent that without being pushed to the back table edge.

I mean, let's face it, every edition has to have someone be the worst army. Daemons turn?

And the deepstrike rules really kill Drop Pod and DOA armies too by the looks of it... but at least those armies have other viable builds.

Thoughts?

Okay so the current rules - You deep strike, and can do nothing other than run or shoot. Enemy turn rolls around and they shoot you to pieces, with target priority letting them roll through each unit as they need to. They also get to respond to your deep strikes by moving first, then firing at you, making it even harder for you as a daemon player to reach combat.

6th edition leak - You deep strike, as usual since you'll be in critical range. Any units within 12" still get a chance to shoot at you. However each unit can only defensive fire at ONE unit that deep struck that turn. If you get multiple units in critical range only one will be fired upon, the rest untouched. Move into assault with an engage move (6" with infantry, 8" with fleet infantry), and you're in close combat from the VERY START of the game.

This makes daemons better, not worse.

Edit - This doesn't even take into account having icons of chaos and subsequent reserves getting to deep strike with no scatter at all thanks to the Beacon rule.

Aye plus with Bloodthirsters hitting on 2+ again, and many of their foes requiring 6 to hit him back. Ouch.

Ohhhhhhhhhh... see, I just plead ignorance. I was thinking everyone got to DF at everyone all the time, essentially giving armies a ton of extra shooting phases.

So do you do all your deepstrikes, scatter, etc and THEN they get to pick who they DF on or do they decide as you land?

tetrisphreak wrote: This makes daemons better, not worse.

My thoughts exactly. My friends and I will be play-testing these rules tonight and one has a Daemon army with access to any Khorne or Tzeentch unit.

Ill also be trying games against my Tyranid playing friend so I wonder how that will go as well

Walls wrote:Ohhhhhhhhhh... see, I just plead ignorance. I was thinking everyone got to DF at everyone all the time, essentially giving armies a ton of extra shooting phases.

So do you do all your deepstrikes, scatter, etc and THEN they get to pick who they DF on or do they decide as you land?

After all reserves come in and are placed you check to see which are eligible for defensive fire. Units pick one target they fire upon then. A deep strike mishap results in the unit being moved the shortest distance possible and getting the 'stunned' status (preventing them from assaulting/shooting that turn, but not destroying them outright or misplacing them on the field)

tetrisphreak wrote:

Edit - This doesn't even take into account having icons of chaos and subsequent reserves getting to deep strike with no scatter at all thanks to the Beacon rule.

Not to menton potential alpha strikes if the enemy is still tied in combat with the first wave deamons.

Games against Daemons will now be a quick, deadly, and very bloody affair with little protection to be had against them.

I'm am now very thankful that only half the army comes in first turn

Assuming these rules are legit, I am trying to decide what army I want to start for a new project: Tyranids or Daemons.

As stated above, Daemon armies could be really fun...

I know I may start that Slaanesh army I always wanted. Its only too bad that their Pavane happens after assaults now. Don't know what I would use it for