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Psykers or sensitive people are disgusted by any random thing a chaos marine has. The Lion was disgusted by their bolters in the recent book and could feel it trying to corrupt him. You don't need to be worshipping chaos to be corrupted by it.

 KingGarland wrote:
From a lore perspective one way you could make Dark Pacts work for the legions that are less devoted to a specific Chaos God is Daemon weapons.

Well 9th gave us the most interesting (and free-form) development with Daemon Weapons in several editions. I imagine 10th will, naturally, throw that out the window and we might occasionally get a detachment-locked daemon weapon as one of the bloat-tastic 4 whole enhancement options our armies now have.

 KingGarland wrote:
So think of of it like the Legionnaires invoking the power of Daemons bound within their Boltguns. If their willpower is greater then the Daemon they are safe if not the daemon attacks its jailer killing him.

And again, it feels like too big a thing to be done so often and on such a small scale, like every bolt pistol and boot-blade is somehow packing a minor warp entity that you can entreat if you feel like risking your life ever 5 minutes.

novembermike wrote:
Psykers or sensitive people are disgusted by any random thing a chaos marine has. The Lion was disgusted by their bolters in the recent book and could feel it trying to corrupt him. You don't need to be worshipping chaos to be corrupted by it.

There is difference between a pact/Trade and in essence holding what ammounts to a spirtual radioactive waste barrel.

Not Online!!! wrote:

novembermike wrote:
Psykers or sensitive people are disgusted by any random thing a chaos marine has. The Lion was disgusted by their bolters in the recent book and could feel it trying to corrupt him. You don't need to be worshipping chaos to be corrupted by it.

There is difference between a pact/Trade and in essence holding what ammounts to a spirtual radioactive waste barrel.

Sure but it's explained by a mix of tabletop exaggeration, mortals not necessarily representing actual damage that kills a model (if a marine sprouted a tentacle and is out of the fight that's fine on a longer scale) and the fact that 40k battles tend to represent critical engagement with peers so the heretics would push things further than they would just killing random civilians.

It's funny that only now, 10 editions in, Chaos Marines being killed by their own weapons is apparently a well known thing

I guess my headcanon for Dark pacts would be that it's not actually something you do every round or every two seconds in the battle as someone mentioned, instead it represents CSM being a little pumped up by Chaos with improved abilities, but every now and then someone falls to madness.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Dark Pacts as the core rule for CSMs seems pretty lousy to me. Better that be the special detachment rule for a more "Fanatical Chaos Worshiping" army, something akin to the achetype that could include Word Bearers.

Making Dark Pacts on the fly during a battle also seems very weird. It's more something someone does prior to an engagement, in a big ritual, not in a "Oh no, there's a Land Raider coming over that rise. Umm... oh mighty She'the'rax'ti'cal... grant me a boon... oh no Jimmy exploded!" kinda way. It's too macro a thing to be done on such a micro scale.

Plus I know quite a few people here who love CSMs, but play CSMs that aren't exactly the most Chaos-i-fied groups, certainly when compared to other more-dedicated Legions (Night Lord players spring to mind, and I'd imagine a few Alpha Legion and even Iron Warrior players) and they might have an issue with their core rules being linked to heavy warp-based daemonic shenanigans.

I think you summed up my feelings pretty well here, HBMC. I'm all for having the option to make spooky pacts with the chaos powers, but these rules don't feel appropriate for that. And additionally, having this be the one-size-fits-all rule for all CSM from Word Bearers to Night Lords feels like a weird choice.

If the dark pacts were a detachment rule, I'd question how pact-like they feel, but they'd be a solid option for players who want to lean into that theme. This appears to be a baked-in non-optional rule. I shouldn't feel compelled to avoid using a rule like that for fluff reasons if I'm playing my not-especially-chaos-y alpha legion or what have you.

I think part of what bugs me about it is that it feels like a slightly undercooked idea. Like, I see how, on paper, you'd go, "Marines with spikes should have a rule where they get stronger but hurt themselves doing it." From a thousand foot view, that's a natural thing to do with the extra-evil faction. But then then the flavor text kind of leaves people like me scratching our heads and wondering how these rules are meant to reflect spooky daemon pacts and such. Like, if you started with the idea of wanting to give CSM spooky bargains with chaos entities, I feel like you'd end up in a very different place. You'd let them forge the pacts pregame. Maybe even give players a bunch of evocative options to make armies or even squads feel unique. Maybe you'd take a stab at doing something akin to Space Wolf sagas where your boons come with expectations that will bite you if they go unfulfilled.

This feels more like someone had a vague, generically edgy mechanic in mind that didn't necessarily suit the slot they put it in, and then they dressed it up with some generic-but-ill-fitting flavor text.

I'm being overly dramatic. This isn't that big a deal. But like, I can think of a bunch of mechanics I'd absolutely love to see on CSM, so getting this instead is a minor disappointment.

EDIT: On the bright side, this *does* work reasonably well for my Slaaneshi marines if I refluff it as combat drugs.

 Lord Damocles wrote:
It's funny that only now, 10 editions in, Chaos Marines being killed by their own weapons is apparently a well known thing

Corrupted. The mortal wounds are specifically from calling on dark powers that may do as little as stun them or as much as blink them out of existence.

The point he was making that suddenly this is only happening now. And this is trait that GW has decided as the thing that defines all CSM armies at their very core, some outta no where ass-pull of a concept that doesn't even fit the fluff of several Legions.

This is why Dark Pacts, like Oaths of Moment, fit more as detachment abilities than the detachment abilities we've seen so far. I'd say that adaptation for 'Nids is as intrinsic to the Tyranids as a species as Synapse is. So did GW, a few months back anyway, as it was one of their chief faction-defining rules.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
The point he was making that suddenly this is only happening now. And this is trait that GW has decided as the thing that defines all CSM armies at their very core, some outta no where ass-pull of a concept that doesn't even fit the fluff of several Legions.

This is why Dark Pacts, like Oaths of Moment, fit more as detachment abilities than the detachment abilities we've seen so far. I'd say that adaptation for 'Nids is as intrinsic to the Tyranids as a species as Synapse is. So did GW, a few months back anyway, as it was one of their chief faction-defining rules.

It makes you wonder if CSM rules are more fitting for most legions when they're just copy-pasted loyalist rules (like in 8th/9th) rather than when GW tries to come up with some CSM-specific mechanic to make your army a little bit worse (boon table in 6th/7th; Dark pacts now).

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
The point he was making that suddenly this is only happening now. And this is trait that GW has decided as the thing that defines all CSM armies at their very core, some outta no where ass-pull of a concept that doesn't even fit the fluff of several Legions.

This is why Dark Pacts, like Oaths of Moment, fit more as detachment abilities than the detachment abilities we've seen so far. I'd say that adaptation for 'Nids is as intrinsic to the Tyranids as a species as Synapse is. So did GW, a few months back anyway, as it was one of their chief faction-defining rules.

You can literally say that any time a rule changes.

Why don't psykers make tests anymore? When did plasma become safe? When did flamers start being able to hit flyers? Why can we melee skimmers all of a sudden? Why couldn't we charge out of transports for a while?

The gameplay is always going to be an abstraction and the lore, as we've seen over the years, is fluid in service of growing the brand.

In this case, they decided that CSM are the risk for personal power faction and made a rule that supports this aspect of their lore. If it doesn't fit your headcanon, then don't use it. Your Night Lords fight with a handicap that the other legions don't but never risk taking mortal wounds and losing their valuable soldiers.

Honestly miss the boon table over this.

Seems more fluffy.

ok, 40k is not played because of the rules but because the cool background only this game has
yet the background is re-written to fit the rules each time those changes
so the only point left are models, but only new ones as already painted armies don't fit the new rules and background

so the only reason to be hyped is because we get something new, and everyone wants to play something new once in a while (but only if it is official released from GW)

 kodos wrote:
yet the background is re-written to fit the rules each time those changes

Care to name a case when this happened?

To be specific - name a case where a retcon was motivated by a rules change that was not related to model releases.

I'm not aware of any, but I might be wrong.

you mean like the context of above that making a dark pact and sacrificing squad members for better shooting during the battle is now what defines all Chaos Space Marine, no matter if the prey to the dark gods or are just heretics?

that this is to CSM what is "know no fear" to SM?

well, I see that as a change in background to fit the rules

if you want older examples, the SW Codices (everything about Wulfen) or the Thousand Sons Codices, would come to my mind
change of the fluff to fit new rules, which are changed again with the next version of the book

 kodos wrote:
you mean like the context of above that making a dark pact and sacrificing squad members for better shooting during the battle is now what defines all Chaos Space Marine, no matter if the prey to the dark gods or are just heretics?

that this is to CSM what is "know no fear" to SM?

well, I see that as a change in background to fit the rules

You are clearly a blind man then. The oldest chaos codex I could find in the 30 second I cared about proving you wrong was 4th edition, I flipped it open and within seconds I found page 9 stating literally the same thing.

if you want older examples, the SW Codices (everything about Wulfen) or the Thousand Sons Codices, would come to my mind
change of the fluff to fit new rules, which are changed again with the next version of the book

I asked for examples, not vague hints at codices without even stating an edition. And wulfen were clearly model motivated.
So, please provide actual examples of fluff having changed. As in "it was X before and is Y after".

Just head canon it to be veterans of the long war or represent the back stabbing nature of the traitors. This is them killing their rivals.

But seriously. It’s Codex Chaos Space Marines, not Codex Traitor Marines. I am not sure why you all think it’s odd that the Chaos faction should have a Chaos focused ability. You can easily use the Marine list if that’s closer to your idea of a renegade army.

I just don’t get why the Chaos Gods haven’t killed and corrupted all these hangers on who are for some reason helping their grand design with no consequences whilst every other Imperial gets corrupted when they join Horus. Like the series is full of case after case of selfish character wants power and gets corrupted. Or, character getting stuck in the warp and being corrupted anyway. Custodes and Grey Knights are the only factions fully immune to this. So the idea that Alpha Legion can play the Gods and not just get eaten by the walls of their own ships is pretty silly.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
“ Yeah they all should worship Chaos.

Who knows the game better- the people who invented it, sustained it for 35 years and already have the next decade planned...

Or a guy from the Internet?

Because clearly GW doesn't think, has never thought and will never think all renegades most worship chaos, and it is THEIR game dude.

Argument over. Fin. Done.

Edit: Please note that had you said "I think they should all worship chaos," or " I would prefer that they all worship chaos," that would be a discussion we could have. But to declare that it should be YOUR way objectively, despite the fact that it isn't and never has been because the people who created the IP never wanted it to be... Well, it drives some of us to the point where it becomes difficult to use our characteristic diplomacy.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
Just head canon it to be veterans of the long war or represent the back stabbing nature of the traitors. This is them killing their rivals.

But seriously. It’s Codex Chaos Space Marines, not Codex Traitor Marines. I am not sure why you all think it’s odd that the Chaos faction should have a Chaos focused ability. You can easily use the Marine list if that’s closer to your idea of a renegade army.

I just don’t get why the Chaos Gods haven’t killed and corrupted all these hangers on who are for some reason helping their grand design with no consequences whilst every other Imperial gets corrupted when they join Horus. Like the series is full of case after case of selfish character wants power and gets corrupted. Or, character getting stuck in the warp and being corrupted anyway. Custodes and Grey Knights are the only factions fully immune to this. So the idea that Alpha Legion can play the Gods and not just get eaten by the walls of their own ships is pretty silly.

It is also a known fact that Night Lords do have Daemon Princes among them (and therefore are also susceptible to the corruption of Chaos).

 Jidmah wrote:
You are clearly a blind man then. The oldest chaos codex I could find in the 30 second I cared about proving you wrong was 4th edition, I flipped it open and within seconds I found page 9 stating literally the same thing.

ok, my 4th Edi CSM book must be different than
as the rules for Icons are an optional upgrade, as not all CSM pray to the gods and non of the Icons make you sacrifice models for temporal gains but add a flat bonus

so please provide me the page number with similar rules/fluff as dark pact is now, I really cannot find it

and for the specific example, as you tell me that fluff of Wulfen did not change in 5th from 3rd, 7th and 8th again, there is no point in providing examples as for you the fluff of them is still the same and never changed anyway

 kodos wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
You are clearly a blind man then. The oldest chaos codex I could find in the 30 second I cared about proving you wrong was 4th edition, I flipped it open and within seconds I found page 9 stating literally the same thing.

ok, my 4th Edi CSM book must be different than
as the rules for Icons are an optional upgrade, as not all CSM pray to the gods and non of the Icons make you sacrifice models for temporal gains but add a flat bonus

so please provide me the page number with similar rules/fluff as dark pact is now, I really cannot find it

and for the specific example, as you tell me that fluff of Wulfen did not change in 5th from 3rd, 7th and 8th again, there is no point in providing examples as for you the fluff of them is still the same and never changed anyway

Thanks for proving you are blind indeed
(or you just got the wrong book)

Page nine is about Champions of Chaos, wrapped around the explanations who Tzeench and Khorne are.

As you failed to even provide the simplest explanation about wulfen, I think it's save to assume that you are just making gak up.

 Lord Damocles wrote:
It's funny that only now, 10 editions in, Chaos Marines being killed by their own weapons is apparently a well known thing

Daemon Weapons fighting their owned is pretty well stuck in my head even though it hasn't been a thing for years now. Man how time flies...

Necrons: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/05/05/warhammer-40000-faction-focus-necrons-2/

Necrons look much better this time round from that limited snapshot.

 Jidmah wrote:

Page nine is about Champions of Chaos, wrapped around the explanations who Tzeench and Khorne are.

yeah, no point in providing any examples, as you see the fluff text about leaders of a chaos army as the same fluff as the darc pact special rule for troops
what example should I provide? you are going to say anyway that this is the same any way no matter the text and rules

but I guess everything is fine, all CSM units have the same fluff since 3rd, never seen any changes and if there are some people are just not able to see that those are the same

Dudeface wrote:
Necrons look much better this time round from that limited snapshot.

Yea - no need to get technomancers to reanimate - instead just get on those objectives. Characters inside units could help the unit survive to reanimate.

People are definitely going to want more characters, which will cut down on the number of hordes than can show up.

And I think that Doomsday Cannon could be the most beastly weapon we've seen yet. Gut feeling on that. The design bodes well for Doomstalkers.

Nice to see that they had the good sense to give Monoliths FLY again. No more getting stuck in terrain dense boards.

Apparently the "You do this, and you do it better when on an objective" is what troops do.

Spoletta wrote:
Apparently the "You do this, and you do it better when on an objective" is what troops do.

HH has that for core core troops. It's quite a nice Way to make them desireable beyond mere ablity to hold an objective.

Spoletta wrote:
Apparently the "You do this, and you do it better when on an objective" is what troops do.

Well, not termagants / terminators at least. I'd like to see more reaction type stuff, but they can't fill the game with it so these seem reasonable enough to give more positioning and tactical choice.