Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I am looking to start a new Tyranid army, but so far I have little to no experience with CC armies in 40k. My two main armies are Shooty Marines and Imperial Guard...so this is new territory for me. I didn't see much on the questions i am asking, so hopfully i didn't miss a posting that addresses these...my apologies if there are.

1) Ravengers -  I really like the models and want to field 5 of them. How do people generally feel about Raveners...they are just cool on paper?

2) Gaunts- If I up them to str 5 weapons (Fleshborer + Toxin Sacs), am I wasting my points on them?

3) Tyrant Guard - Is having 3 overkill?

Thanks for your help!

Welcome to the Hive take a node and a free cookie.

1) I field 10 Raveners in a 2000 army and they are worth it most of the time. The most important thing is be careful with them usually they are in close combat after turn two until his happens use as much cover as possible nothing troubels a Ravener more than Heavy Bolters or similar weapons.

2) Yes it is a waste of points. Fleshborers got living amo so you have a reroll to wound. Str5 is just not neccessary and gaunts die fast also.

3) Saftey first!

The best way to field a tyranid army? keep it simple and cheap.... Its all about lots and lots of body's....

1: raveners are fast but die quikly.. you need a few to make sure that you roll a few rendering 6's..if you dont..then even a simple group of guardsmen can wound them..and win close combat... a buddy of mine fields 3 independant raveners (thats 3 fast attack slots) so that you can only shoot at one ravener at the time. He uses them to tie up units for one turn making sure that the cannot shoot... he shields them behind a few shooty carnifexes... also good for countercharge..

2: waste of points... you dont want to shoot with guants because you need to fleet towards the enemy to get in CC. why do you want to shoot? its only 12 inch..?

3: Tyrant guard are not bad..but do you really need them? a walking Hive Tyrant is to slow to get in CC.. I got a flying hive tyrant with two twin linked devourers..... much better...! for extra synapse you can get a hive tyrant with two talons...nothing more... its still a scoring MC with 5 attacks, T6 and 3+ save...(about 100P) if the kill it? it means that the didnt shoot at my heavy shooty carnifexes.. a wall of 3 shooty carnifexes shielding it should also keep him save...

What kind of army do you like to field? swarm, godzilla?

I tend not favor the Zilla army. I have issues with this kind of build that I don't care to go into. I would have to say swarm. Again, I am having to rethink how to play tactics since I will be worrying more about CC than shooting.

What about the efficacy of Gargoyles and something called "psychic choir" (I think?)?

Agreed on raveners and gaunts.

As for Tyrant guard...depends on the points value of the game and what else you have in the list. Considering how slow a walking tyrant is, the extra wounds are nice, but it may be worth investing those 45 points in something faster.

Psychic Choir tends to be one of the variant builds of Zilla Nids, so you probably won't want to go that route (Though you could technically make a swarm version of Psychic choir, but I think it works best with the use of the dakkafex).

I like gargoyles, but the models themselves are $$$. Would be great if they came in plastics.

a few tips for swarm army:

1: like I said.keep it simple and cheap. get lots of spinefist guants and/or hormaguants... no extra save or anything...just cheap...
2: Get a flying hive tyrant with twin linked devourers and warp field.... cant go wrong with that one...
3: you need zoantropes for extra synapse...also for when you play escalation mission...
4: even with a swarm army you need a few fexes.....get 2 fexes with vennom cannon and talons and 2+ save...nock out tanks..
5: you could get the brood lord with genestealer retineu...works better in a swarm army..this is very personal tho....
6: consider a group of ripper swarms
7: fill your fast attack choices with raveners with talons... make small groups...

dont pick any warriors, ..the suck
lictors: take raveners instead... lictors are only good if the can attack in pairs... to expensive..

helpfull? 8)

Extremely helpful, thank you!

I don't completely agree with a few things said here.

Termagants (Gaunts with fleshborers) are actually a pretty good buy for only one point more than Spinegaunts. You gain the ability to glance AV10 vehicles and are more effective shooting at Marines. I've downed a lot of stuff with my Termagants...they're not bad for playing area denial to skimmers and light vehicles. Note however that all Gaunts are primarily cannon fodder and tarpit units, and only *opportunity* shooters. You don't look to shoot with them, but you may find you wish you had the fleshborers when the opportunities present themselves.

Hormagaunts aren't bad (a little overpriced), but beware of escalation missions...they start off the table.

Carnifexes with venom cannons and barbed stranglers are your ranged tank killers. Take two. The extra wound is probably the best overall defensive biomorph for Carnifexes, although the carapace isn't bad if you know you're facing mostly AP3 (Orks, for instance).

i don't agree with most of hwts been said here

if you goal is CC throwing guardsman at MEQs is not the way to go about it.

granted you can do the horde army with huge broods of gaunts goyles and such but you have to buy and paint lots  of models and you also will be putting them on the table just to pick themall back up in short order with as weak and poorly armored as they are.

i know you said you wanted to avoid the nidzilla list and i fully undertand. the 3-4 fex + 2 tyrant and gene steelers gets very old very fast.

my wife wanted to have an all flying army but the idea of buying, building and painting 96 gargoyles via 2 pack metal  blisters just wasn't all that apealing.

so we went with super winged  CC warriors in stead. we could have had even more warriors but we decied to giver her 1 super daka fex and a winged tyrant for some flavor.

 

the up side is that while the warriors have little better save than guants or goyles because they have wings...99% of her army is mult wound, immune to instant death(synapse) and fearless. and puts something akin to 75 wonds on the table at 1,850

 

so far it has won 7 out of the last 8 games it has been played in and the 1 loss was close.

 

what you first need to do with nids is look for the units that are most effective for CC-getting there and putting some hurt on.

winged tyrant with double scything tallons, bio plasma etc...

raveners

genestealers

warriors

 

the tyrant is a great unit in CC if you upgrade him properly and if nothing else he draws fire away from your more fragile units.

raveners and stealers are usually the unit of choice because they have high init and can fleet or infiltrait or both.

warriors often overlooked are some of the most modifiable of all the nid beasties and can be very effective if used in numbers.

bio plasma is also a must especially in a world of skimmers and other armies elite CC units.

a strength bonus, always hits on 4+ and initiative 10 makes it well worth the points. savor the look on your opponants face when you go simo with his eldar banshies, or before his chaplain gets to take a swing.

I wouldn't build any Tyranid list without the following:

Flying Hive Tyrant - you can build him "Super Choppy" or "Super Dakka with a side of Decent Choppy". You take your pick, just make sure to include both Wings and Warp Field on him.

TWO, not one, but TWO SniperFex's. These are Heavy Support Fex's with the following as a Minimum: Venom Cannon, Barbed Strangler, Enhanced Senses. After that, give them an extra Wound, and then consider giving them either a 2+ Save or T7, or both if you have the points. Basically, you NEED anti-tank or you will get run over badly.

After that, if you're going to run things that require synapse to function (Gaunts or Hormagaunts), you need to take 1-3 Zoanthropes in order to have your horde function in escalation games. You will need Synapse of some form.

Personally, a horde army is VERY hard to start with. And Gaunts won't be heavy hitters, no matter what you do with them. You need things like Stealers or Raveners. Raveners are particularly good, but you have to be careful with them. They are an awesome unit when they connect though.

quote]Termagants (Gaunts with fleshborers) are actually a pretty good buy for only one point more than Spinegaunts.

Well thats your preference of course, you could throw down 40 steales to do the same with the same number of wounds, but they aren't fearless, aren't synapse, but since they only have 1 wound it isn't an issue, and cannot take many of the warrior upgrades.

I have found that winged and CC tooled are indeed very effective even if they are a bit expensive. it's lots of wounds for less models. especialy helpfull on the buying, painting and vulding side of the game.

I wasn't refering to the fire support units. the core strength of a nid army is thier CC units, if thier CC units are faced with engaging skimmes(or extemely high initiative units) bioplasa becomes very usefull.

I don't see how you can say this in an age of nidzilla. A successful nid army can be based around either shooting or CC. There is no mandatory "core strength."

Termagants do work, but devourer armed gaunts are better. You lack only the Ap for killing GEq. The point less strrength is not too important because of living ammo, but the double shot and extra range makes a HUGE difference.
The only reason I prefer to take ternmagants is because I dont like overusing devourers everywhere. Thats a very personal choice though.
Devourer armed gaunts, at 7pts with no further upgrade - these are the shooty swarm of choice.

Assault based swarm nids generally work best witgh a mix of hormagaunts (no extras) and genestealers (with carapace). You need both really, the hormagaunts run forward faster and get into combat quicker thus covering the stealers approach. Dont expect them to live, or even win ther combats they charge into. That isnt important.

You can replace or backup the hormagaunts with other fast nids, but only gargoyles are points effective here. Raveners and winged warriors are good (the only warriors worth taking) but should be userd tyo hit key shooty units, not act as a meat shield for your stealers.

All the above asdvice ignores the uses of tyrants and carnifexes, use of them is pretty much straightforward, often literally so.

Personally I prefer Hormagaunts over Raveners.

Winged Warriors vs Raveners: Raveners get an extra attack, Warriors fly, look cool and provide synapse. They also have the options for S5, flesh hooks. bio-plasma and symbiote rippers. And they look cool.

 

While it is true you can do an "all shooty" nid army, your effectively making them into IG. even with a few twin linked weapons in the list your still BS3 and most nid "guns" do not have very good range or AP value.

If you look at the other side of the coin, you can tool up almost every nid unit to be on par or better than a space marine commander in terms of initiative, weapons skill, and number of attacks(and sometimes strength) without even adding in the benefits of rending.

So while you can make them more shooty now in 4th, they are still one of the premier CC armies in the game.

The way you talk, one would think you'd never played 'nidzilla, but I'm sure you have. Do you deny their power?


Never disputed that; just look at C99's showing. My point is that it's absurd to say that the "core" of 'nids is CC when the strongest current build is shooting-based.

yes they work but for the daka fex to work the have to have a superb CCC element that they are providing fire support for such as stealers and flyrants

See, here's the problem I'm having. Fliping Harlequins. I had 12 Harlequins destroy 50 genestealers. My genestealers. How can Tyranids be the "best" close combat army if 12 Harlequins for 270 points or so can kill my entire army?

In close combat it's all about inititive. And you have to have a Broodlord with I 8. Lictors are way too exspensive.
3 carnifex as snipers works well. I'm desperate to beat Harlequins becase they are cheap and nasty.

I hate the fact that after the Tyranids codex GW figured out that if they lower the points cost per model that they will sell more mini's because you will need more to fill your list.

So Tau and Eldar got cheaper and better. Orks will be 6 points a piece, and IG, are getting cheaper too. So I'm a little upset. It just makes us Space Marines and Tyranid players think a little harder to beat these armies.

Catalyst is a must if you are fighting CC armies.

Keys to destroying Harlequins with Tyranids:

Step 1: identify Harlequins.
Step 2: move flying Tyrant with x2 TL Devourers within 12" of Harlequins.
Step 3: dead Harlequins.

That there are a lot of ways of building successful tyranid armies speaks highly to me of their flexibility. I'll agree that right now, the nidzilla maxdakka list is widely used and very strong, but I don't like to play that list.

I generally play a list that uses 4 psychic screams (3 zoanthropes, 1 walking HT because I have 2nd ed models and haven't bothered to upgrade one to a flying HT), 24 EC genestealers, and some (16-20) hormagaunts as a baseline. Anything else that I add, I add to make things interesting, or because I haven't played with them recently. The combination of psychic scream, high I close combat, rending, and some shooting make for a competitive list and some very interesting games.

If I were to build a list from scratch, I would include the following:
-flying HT with 2x TL devourer _or_ 2x ST and implant attack
-3 zoanthropes
-24 EC genestealers
-20 hormagaunts
-3 ST/RC Raveners
-2 VC/BS Carnifex
-3 raveners

Posted By JohnSmith on 10/23/2007 6:25 PM
See, here's the problem I'm having. Fliping Harlequins. I had 12 Harlequins destroy 50 genestealers. My genestealers. How can Tyranids be the "best" close combat army if 12 Harlequins for 270 points or so can kill my entire army?

In close combat it's all about inititive. And you have to have a Broodlord with I 8. Lictors are way too exspensive.
3 carnifex as snipers works well. I'm desperate to beat Harlequins becase they are cheap and nasty.

I hate the fact that after the Tyranids codex GW figured out that if they lower the points cost per model that they will sell more mini's because you will need more to fill your list.

So Tau and Eldar got cheaper and better. Orks will be 6 points a piece, and IG, are getting cheaper too. So I'm a little upset. It just makes us Space Marines and Tyranid players think a little harder to beat these armies.

Catalyst is a must if you are fighting CC armies.

i can see where this seems like a problem to you in CC, but harlies are only 1 unit in the overal eldar force and limited to elites. almost everything the nids have can be dedicated for CC. harlies are also very fragile.

i don't have the eldar codex, but out of curiosity what is thier intiative? if they beat stealers 6/8 and warriors 5 the only thing you really have to beat them in intiative order(or tie them) is bioplasma at 10 with +1 strength always hitting on 4+

it really helped me out against  banshies.

Posted By JohnSmith on 10/23/2007 6:25 PM
See, here's the problem I'm having. Fliping Harlequins.
In close combat it's all about inititive.

 

Not necessarily. Between harlies and stealers, or more generally between any 2 expensive killer CC units it often is. Armor ignoring (rend or power) Elite CC units are excellent at taking out small expensive units where they earn their keep many times over if used right, for that they rely on high I to damage the small unit beyond any ability to do much back.

However harlies (and most other such units) do not really deal out 'large' amounts of casualties due to their small numbers so they tend to suck at taking out large cheap units like gaunts. whereas 6 dead marines could wipe them out, 7-10 or so dead gaunts leaves plenty left, and the harlies are usually to fragile to handle being bogged down. A unit of 20 cheap spinegaunts that fleets into 6 harlies will lose 7 or so, but kill 4 or so back - a significant points gain for the gaunts and for your harlie unit it is pretty much game over. Hormagaunts do it better, often wiping out 6 man harlies in 1 go and having the range to make the charge more likely, though 20 of them are twice as expensive. Nids are great at CC, just don't get tunnelled visioned by the stealers - they are great at what they do, but not the guys for all the jobs.

There isn't much difference with 10 man harlie units , just scale up your units as well. In many ways they are easier to handle, as they won't have a falcon to hide in.

Alternatively, as Yak said, just shoot the snot out of them. 20 spinegaunts again is quite suffiicient to send 5 or so to their maker. In ideal circumtances your 100pt unit moves shoots half of them then charges and finishes the rest off.

See Harliquins on the charge get 48 rending attacks at initive 7. And you can field 36 of them. They ignore rolling to move through cover and have a 5+ invunerable save. And you must roll 2d6 to see if you can see them for shooting. And they have fleet. All for 272 points for 12. Or close to that. Tyranids can't beat them. If you try to shoot them on average you will only be able to see 14 inches. Not enough.

Witches are bad too. Just not so bad.

My question is if Psychic Scream can be nullified?

And I can't decide. A walking Tyrant with 2 Guard and VC, or a flying Tyrant. The 1st is for popping light tanks and skimmers. Tau, Eldar. The 2nd is for the fear factor.

Posted By JohnSmith on 10/24/2007 6:07 AM
See Harliquins on the charge get 48 rending attacks at initive 7. And you can field 36 of them. They ignore rolling to move through cover and have a 5+ invunerable save. And you must roll 2d6 to see if you can see them for shooting. And they have fleet. All for 272 points for 12. Or close to that. Tyranids can't beat them. If you try to shoot them on average you will only be able to see 14 inches. Not enough.

I'm not used to large groups of harlies, I thought 10 was the max, 12 with the seer would be 294 at least. That will buy a lot of cheap stuff.

60 spine gaunts - 2 units if 30, similiar charge ranges, IF the harlies get 1 of the units in a charge then they average 18 dead gaunts, still 12 left which may kill 2. you then to get to charge with the other 30 who take 11 dead but you now kill another 8 or so with both sets of remaining gaunts. Overall you will win, even if they charge. If they don't make the charge due to bad fleet or good play on your half, then you get to charge or move and shoot (or both). At the ranges you are working with at this point the spotting range will not usually be a problem, 30 spineguants will average 7 dead, On a good day if you get both units in range you will average wipe out on the harlies. If you don't shoot but charge you should still win quite easily.

30 basic hormaguants for the same cost have a minimum charge range that exceeds the harlie max charge range. Charging shouldn't be an issue. They kill 13ish, the remaining 17 hormies average 8 dead harlies. There are now 4 harlies vs 17 hormies. You are going to win.

If you go stealers, then you only get 15 carapaced stealers, they are not a good option as the harlies can kill most on the charge or a good portion even if you charge. But that is as I said before - wrong unit for the job, harlies excel at killing smallish expensive units, so don't throw smallish expensive units at them.

Tyranids can beat harlies, point for point they can readily put down stuff that beats them either from shooting or CC. Whether you get to achieve that match up in game comes down to tactics and the ability of the players. 6 man harlies are tougher as they are normally in falcons so they can choose the moment and place to appear with not much you can do about it.

 

I don't post on this forum much but here is the advice from a guy who's only been playing for 8 months.

1.  Give anything that plans on getting into melee fleshhooks.  I exempt termagaunts, spinegaunts, & devourer gaunts from this because usually they can get into CC in open field and it's a waste of points.  On a side note.  spinegaunts can turn a wraithlord, avatar, carnifex, or any other big nasty into a worthless unit for a whole game just by tying it up in CC.  Yes you will lose a few each turn but he's getting what...10-20 points a turn and not hurting your more expensive stuff right?

2.  Hormogaunts are your best friend in a swarm army.  you can run em plain or give them I/5 and S/4 for a few more points.  If you buff them up they are no longer a fodder squad.  They can and will kill and take out just about anything you get into contact with including skimmers, wraithlords, and even carnifi.  30 of these buggers will be expensive points wise though.  I usually run a squad of 14 buff gaunts along with my genestealers.

3.  Genestealers rock.  I run them with fleshhooks only and stick to terrain as much as possible on the way to the food.  I run several small squads of 8 so that if the opponent wants to take em out he has to either concentrate all his fire on one or spread out what he's doing.

4.  I prefer to use a flying tyrant w/ 2 sets TL devourers and implant attack.  Yes it's expensive as hell but it also earns it's points back almost every game.  plus if your opponent concentrates on it for a full round then everything else isn't being shot at that turn.

5.  On walking tyrants I use a venom cannon and 1 TL devourer, I also give them one gaurd.  you can pop light tanks, skimmers, infantry, or whtever with this guy and the guard is just extra wounds.

6.  Shooty fex's are nice.  I run at least one mostly 2 tho.  Only way to kill big tanks.  They don't really need any upgrades other than enhanced senses if you keep em in terrain.

7.  I like raveners but not for the same reason other people do.  I run 3 squads of one and only use them to take objectives or get into enemy deployment zones.  Occasionally I'll have them assault someone if I am pretty sure they will kill or tie up what they get to.

8.  Warriors...I run small squads of em with guns/talons/fleshhooks.  I move em up behind whatever gaunts they are near.  Warriors attract alot of fire so if your sneaky with your other synapse stuff then they keep your other stuff alive to get into combat.  I also like to run flying warriors with devourers and talons;  expensive yes, but also effective if used properly.

I hope that helps ya, I'm sure there is alot of stuff I repeated from other people and that oppinions may vary.  This is just how I use my stuff to win in my area.

Posted By mjobrien10 on 10/24/2007 9:15 AM

2.  Hormogaunts are your best friend in a swarm army.  you can run em plain or give them I/5 and S/4 for a few more points.  If you buff them up they are no longer a fodder squad.  They can and will kill and take out just about anything you get into contact with including skimmers, wraithlords, and even carnifi.  30 of these buggers will be expensive points wise though. 

S4 hormies can't possibly harm a T8 wraithlord.

I think his point was to tie it up in CC for the rest of the game so it doesn't hurt more expensive units. not to actually hurt it with guants.

Posted By mughi3 on 10/26/2007 2:45 AM

S4 hormies can't possibly harm a T8 wraithlord.

I think his point was to tie it up in CC for the rest of the game so it doesn't hurt more expensive units. not to actually hurt it with guants.

If given Rending they can, it ignores armour and auto wounds on a 6.