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Another [probably easy] question regarding the new Chaos Codex, how should one go about equipping chosen? Should they be kitted to be shooty or stabby? I wanted to do MoK, 4 pairs of LCs and maybe a meltagun in a rhino, using the rhino as mobile cover. Suggestions?

Chosen look good on paper but I only used them as a small lascannon squad. They have great potential to be hell in melee but they get expensive fast. What is your army lacking?

I think it's a shame to waste Infiltrate by taking a Rhino.

Infiltrating Plasmaguns are generally going to be in range on turn 1. Infiltrating icons are the most reliable (bikes start off the table in Escalation) way to get lesser daemons into position. If you care about lesser daemons, of course.

In the list I'm using right now, I have two squads of six with 2x PG, 1x lascannon, and an icon of glory. If you really want to go choppy, a couple of meltaguns are also a nice option, as they let the unit be a threat to vehicles but still shoot & assault.

Well, I'm probably not going to use the squad's infiltrate very often (they'll be the bodyguard for my chaos lord), and I'm trying to keep my army mobile, except for a few havocs, so heavies are out of the question for basic CSM squads. I might take a chosen squad for infiltrating Las/plas, but it'd probably be wiped out either before taking a shot, or after taking a horribly ineffective one.

any other ideas on loadouts for chosen?

I'm thinking of kitting them out with meltaguns for the tank hunting role, as my army is lacking in tank hunting. Looking at them, they seem like a flexible jack-of-all trades unit that you pay through the nose for.

10 embittered renegade space marines, 5 infiltrating plasma guns. Stand and shoot and give them hell. Lascannon and powerfist optional but I would probably keep the price down.

Expensive? They are only 3 points more per model for infiltrating units that should inflitrate. I like Meltas but 5 plas are great too.

Also, you can mark them as necessary. My long standing chaos buddy has taken to using these guys in place of all the regular CSM he used to take as they are equipped the same otherwise.

5 chosen in your force reduces your total number of csm by 1. Not too bad when you weigh thier effectivness in gaining those points for you in game.

Orion

Yeah, but 5 chosen with meltaguns are 140 points, 145 with the icon. That's pricey for a fragile unit. Worth it though, I hope. i've already ordered my meltaguns .

I haven't played the list yet, but I plan to take a 6 man squad with Champ, Power Fist, and 2 Plasma Guns. That's 173 points, which isn't cheap, but isn't awful either.

GW has put a few lists of this sort in recent Codices. I think they must be traps for powergamers or something. They're squads where you can load them full of Fists, Claws, Plasma, whatever... And in doing so, you put lots of high cost models in immediate risk of getting yanked before they can do anything. Seems like Chosen fall into that category. It's a nice trick GW plays there, by finally giving players a chance to overload a squad, rather than making choices such no brainers.

So,anyway, I'd think it's a good idea to have no more than 50% of the squad kitted out with the expensive stuff.

That said, by my reading of the rules, you can put a Plasma Gun on the Asp Champ in addition to a Power Fist. If that's the case, then it might work out to take a third Plasma Gun on him.

I'd like it if they could take Meltaguns, but I think they'll need the 24" on the Plasma Guns to be worth anything.

I don't think these guys can replace the 6 man Las/Plas squad because they've upcosted the Lascannon to 35 points. The 6 man Las/Plas is great because it's 115 points. To do the same thing with Chosen it's 158. That's a lot more, and all you get is Infiltrate. Basically 7.2 points per model for Infiltrate. That's awful. Plus it's an Elites slot, and Chaos Terminators are pretty good models.

You're just asking for the champ to take a hit from the plasma gun overheating.

With a Powerfist you're assaulting and you probably want Assault 1 Meltaguns anyway.

I like the meltas because S8 can get me some instant death nastiness, and my army in general lacks dedicated antitank. Infiltrate should ensure they are all up in my opponents face blowing up his armour early on. And if they survive long enough, they can pull in termies and daemons to support as the rest of my force rolls in.
I dunno, I haven't tried it, but it looks interesting at least. Just a pity the Nurgle Icon is so expensive.

I thought hard about this, but I don't think it works out with Meltaguns. The problem there is 12" range, and the fact that these guys are not true assault troops, being move 6" assault 6". If you're Infiltrating, you have to be over 18" away (most likely). That means that if you get first turn, you can't shoot anybody. It also means that you're getting one turn of shooting at best, maybe none if they've got good assault troops to counter you with. You need the 24" range of the Plasma Guns to get a worthwhile number of shots.

Another lesser problem is that I generally don't like shooting during assault, especially with slower troops. It's one thing if you can drop your Assault Marines 1" away from the target squad. Then you know you can shoot all your stuff and your opponent can't pull models to leave you out of assault range. It's another thing when you're probably starting out 5" away, and you're shooting a lot of Meltaguns which are likely to kill stuff. It's almost always more important to get to assault than it is to kill an extra model or two.

The bottom line, for me, is that I don't expect 6" move 6" assault troops to get the charge. If the other guy allows that, he's probably not good enough that I need to be super fine tuned to beat him anyway. The unit is there to sit in cover, shoot Plasma, and force the enemy to come to them and get a few extra models with the Fist before they die.

One thing that might make sense is to put a Meltagun on the Champ, Plasma everywhere else. It gives you the flexibility to hunt tanks if necessary, it gives you a more predictable outcome when you assault (one shot can kill one model at most), and it won't burn up your Champ.

I actually have the 10 points free to do this in my list...

I definately hear what you're saying about the utility of the 24" infiltrating stand and shoot plasma.

But I personally wouldn't pay for a Powerfist unless I was going to use it. Altho I have to admit the insurance is nice for a counter charge type unit, in case they are up against a Carnifex or a Dread. But even then, if they're not shooting their guns it's a waste. A Powerfist is just going to knock a wound off a Carni at best.

I think the 4 Melta Infiltrating Chosen Unit isn't really going to accomplish much.  They can act as a blocking unit, hiding behind something and waiting for a tank to come through, but against a smart opponent it will be hard to get them near a target that doesn't want to get popped.  I think the 3 Termy w/combi-melta is a better tank hunter unit since it can land anywhere.  The 4 Plasma - Lascannon death squad could really put down some AP2 Hurt and be in a good position to unleash Daemons.  The problem is that it would need to have extra bodies to be survivable and an Imperial Guard Vet Squad can do the same job for about half the cost.  Still, Chaos really benefits from having an infiltrating unit to put some pressure on the other guy immediately.

Also, the new CSM codex mandates some troop choices and these will automatically eat up a good amount of points.  Chosen can be redundant if the troops are equipped to do that kind of shooting.  Other elites might work better.

Posted By Samwise158 on 10/28/2007 3:23 PM
I think the 4 Melta Infiltrating Chosen Unit isn't really going to accomplish much.  They can act as a blocking unit, hiding behind something and waiting for a tank to come through, but against a smart opponent it will be hard to get them near a target that doesn't want to get popped.  I think the 3 Termy w/combi-melta is a better tank hunter unit since it can land anywhere.  The 4 Plasma - Lascannon death squad could really put down some AP2 Hurt and be in a good position to unleash Daemons.  The problem is that it would need to have extra bodies to be survivable and an Imperial Guard Vet Squad can do the same job for about half the cost.  Still, Chaos really benefits from having an infiltrating unit to put some pressure on the other guy immediately.

Also, the new CSM codex mandates some troop choices and these will automatically eat up a good amount of points.  Chosen can be redundant if the troops are equipped to do that kind of shooting.  Other elites might work better.

/agree that 4x Melta in a Chosen unit is a poor choice for a dedicated anti-tank squad.  But melta guns scattered throughout your infantry squads are reliable anti-tank insurance, and unlike plasma you can shoot them when you assault, they don't blow up, and they're also S8 for instant kill eg Crises Suits or Necrons.

Now I didn't realize plasma guns were so expensive.  The 10 man squad I mentioned earlier with 5x plasma guns is 255 points.  A single Chosen marine with a plasma gun is 33 points, with a melta gun is 28 points.  For 255 points you can easily fit 6x Terminators with Wargear and maybe even demons to go with them.

Given the price of the things I think I'd rather take the Powerfist squad with a couple melta guns, something that takes advantage of the infiltrate.  But the 255 point squad would likely still be useful.

I'm looking at a heavy cc unit of chosen who will also influence my foes deployment and act as a decoy from some of my other units. 8 chosen with a nurgle icon 3 pairs of claws and 1 meltagun will eat through most meqs. Granted its a bit pricey, but not ludicrisly so. They're tough and hidden in cover. While my enemy tries to deal with them 2 units of tooled slaanesh raptors are the real punch. I may drop a pair of claws though as I'm not sure 3 would be that much better than 2 since it isn't my main assault unit.

I would do the same somewhere out on a flank to draw off the enemy if not move them into his sides. Melta's make him have to deal with them or leave his armor ungaurded which can't be half bad?

One unit that could be a real kick in the nuts would be a squad of Devs with Meltas in a Possessed Rhino. The problem there is that it's going to use up a precious Heavy slot, but it's pretty hard to stop, and if it drives up and unloads, it's going to smoke almost any tank in the game.

If you're taking a Greater Daemon, a Chosen champion is probably your best bet for getting that Daemon in a great position. Especially since you can take 5 'special' weapons in your Chosen squad without actually giving one of them to the champion (or take a standard hidden power fist, but give it to a normal Chosen instead of the champion so you don't lose it when he's possessed by the Greater Daemon.) Since the champion is cheaper than other champions as well, it works out great.

What about five chosen with a missile launcher, plasma gun, and icon? It's not really optimized but it's an infiltrating anti-tank unit. It's probably better than ten guys in the troop slot with heavy weapons.

Hey,

Posted By Dead Horse on 11/01/2007 10:29 PM
What about five chosen with a missile launcher, plasma gun, and icon? It's not really optimized but it's an infiltrating anti-tank unit. It's probably better than ten guys in the troop slot with heavy weapons.

Infiltrating Heavy Weapons other than the odd HB seems like a waste to me.
Taking multiple Assault Weapons pretty much sums up Chosens' role.
I'd think every useful combination will fall between two extremes -

The MoK HB and four Plasgun shooty Infiltrator firebase, and
the mobile MoS Fisty Meltagun Unit to scare Mech and Armour opponents.

HB/ Plas share the same range and RF properties as the Bolters they replace.
An Infiltrated HB can help set up a denial firelane backed by respectable Plasma support.
The mere existence of forward Fisty Melta Units can reroute Mech Eldar/ Tau players.
Armoured Column opponents will have some serious threats to consider as well.

Chosen are the stand-out favorite of Elites Units at present for a lot of reasons.
Infiltrating a move-or-shoot weapon with a 72in range isn't one of them.


   Playa

What 72" weapon are you talking about? 48" is the max range of any of the chosen weapons. Also, you obviously don't know the utility of infiltrating a heavy weapon (eg deploying last and setting up side armor shots). However it is the cost of said heavy weapon in chosen that makes multi-specials a bit better imho.

IMO...

The best use for Chosen is in an 8 man squad with 4 P-Fists, mounted in a Heavy Support Land Raider with D-Possession.
I don't have the book, so I can't calculate the points, but here's my reasoning...

LR's are tough as nails & you can assault from them.
At 220 base points, it's a STEAL. Add the D. Possess and you've toughened it up remarkably for a low cost (considering what you get).

You can only upgrade 4 models in a chosen unit with "special" equipment... So, you max that out on P-Fists (or P-Weapons if you're cheap). You take 4 more Chosen so that, as you take wounds, you can remove them. This way, (a) your first 4 wounds won't keep them from being a scoring unit and (b) once they start losing P-Fists to wounds, it doesn't matter, as they are no longer scoring at that point.
You COULD give them an ICON of Khorne for the extra attack if you want (YAWN). Personally, I'd prefer the Invul. Save of Tzeentch or the +1 toughness of Nurgle, though (Nurgle over Tzeentch).

Don't bother upgrading any to Champs. You don't need to.

If you need Shooting, then ditch the Land Raider (for them, anyway), add a Rhino (give it D-possess & some other tricks) and take 4 Heavy Weapons. Use them as Tank Hunters of sorts. As for the Rhino... deploy it separately. Use it to Tank Shock puny foes, shoot its guns at units to harass them, provide mobile cover for units...

At 35 points for a Rhino & 20 points for D-Possession, there's no reason not to.


Eric

Huh? So waste the 3 points a model you are essentially paying for infiltrate, so you can stuff them in a Land Raider?

And giving them powerfists as well? You pay the same points for the fist as champs do but with one less attack. That's pretty inefficient. Heck, you can take terminators with powerfists for less. It makes much more sense to give a few terminators a fist and put the unit in a land raider, then do the same with chosen.


Well, naked chosen champs are the cheapest and sure-ist way of getting a greater demon on the board. Only 10 points for the aspring upgrade for chosen, makes it the cheapest host then any other option, and on an infiltrator to boot. Plus, it is the cheaper then the other champs, so not really a bad option to take a champ with a fist, if you expect the unit to be in close combat.


Again, why give chosen a rhino? It just doesn't make any sense.

I apologize in advance. On a couple of points/ponderings/questions/whatever, I am very non-specific and unsure about points, as I'm at "work" & have no codex handy.



If that's how you look at it. I see the extra points as, not only the ability to have infiltrate but ALSO paying for the ability to give "special" weaponry to more than just one member of the squad. No unit outside of Terminators get that.
As for "stuffing them in a land raider..."
Yeah.
You see, I want my chosen to live to see combat. On foot, half of them probably WON'T be so lucky. In a Rhino, they're MORE likely to see combat than on foot but also MORE likely to get shot up when they disembark than in a LR. LR's allow them to go from the comfort of Papa Nurgle's Womb straight into the heart of combat (which I'm sure you already knew... no insult intended... I just wanted a reason to say "Papa Nurgle's Womb." LOL).




You're right. You CAN take termies with PFists for less... and the Land Raider won't use up a Heavy slot, either. That is actually what I do (with a Nurgle icon) Thing is, though, he didn't ask what units were better. He asked about Chosen specifically. I gave that suggestion based on the presumption that he already had the models & wanted to know how to outfit them, or something similar (could afford the price of CSM's to make into chosen but not Termies, etc).

Ten more points for a champ, for only one more attack... I just don't see it (in this particular instance). It's just ten MORE points into an already expensive unit.

Of course, if you HAVE the points left over... then, by all means...



How are they the cheapest? I don't have my codex handy, but aren't CSM Champs cheaper than Chosen champs? Aside from their Ld, their stat line is identical, IIRC, so I don't see how they're the surest.
I, also, was going based ONLY on the info given by the OP.

1) He said nothing about a Demon.
2) He said he wouldn't be using infiltrate very often, as they'd be in a Rhino.
3) He's using them as a bodyguard for his Lord.

The Lord can go right along in the LR with them. Sure, he could do it with Termies, too... but we've covered that. Also (again, no codex on hand), what's the minimum size for a termie squad? Four or 5? If 5 is the minimum size, then the termie squad couldn't fill the same role he wants the Chosen to fill (in a transport), as only 5 models in termie armor could fit in the LR. There would be no room for the lord.

(I will refrain from going off topic to debate the value of taking a Lord when a D-Prince is SO superior)

Considering points 1-3 above, and the possibility of the 5-man squad size for termies (that would be point 4 if it IS a 5 man squad) I stand by my suggestion.

Eric

Base cost of chosen is 3 points more then basic CSM. Aspiring champ upgrade for chosen is 5 points cheaper then the same upgrade for CSM. So from a model standpoint he is cheaper and (more importantly) he infiltrates. That is the most reliable and cheapest way to deliver the GD.


I guess LRs survive longer around your neck of the woods.


Yes he did ask about chosen and how to equip them (either shooty or stabby), but equiping them in a way that can be done more efficiently elsewhere (eg stabby) is probably dubious advice at best. This is assuming modeling constraints/preference are not at issue, which is a safe bet in a tactics discussion on dakka.

Overall, the best way to equip chosen was already covered, namely short ranged shooty (4-5 special weapon, maybe one fist for good measure, icon for demons if you use em). I just gave the main reasons why the pure close combat equipment you suggested is probably not the best way to go.


Hmm, don't recall him mentioning land raiders either. And he was thinking about using a rhino.

Plus, in a thread titled Chosen equipment, it is a safe bet more then the OP will be reading and considering the content. In any event, how you equip a unit most certainly depends on what other units you will have, how your army is setup and what you need the unit to accomplish. Since the OP covered none of these (and any readers may have diff setups) I don't see the harm in suggesting how an AC might be a good choice if you plan on using A GD.

:evil grin:
Brought my codex to work today so I can try to put together a Fabuis Bile list (for fun) at lunch.

You're dead-on about the points for CSM vs Chosen (of course, you knew that LOL).

As far as LR survival... it's hit or miss. I know it's not the case everywhere but, where I game, full disclosure is the norm. You know what I have and where I have it. Anyone who has spent any time reading the CSM Codex (or asks the right questions) knows just how tough chosen are if they're loaded out for HtH. I'd MUCH rather have HtH Chosen squad in a Land Raider than a Rhino. Their odds are FAR better. Even a Las Cannon only has a 1/3 chance to do anything to it... and half of that is a glance (which a D-Possessed LR is very tough against).



I think "dubious" is a stretch. I was working within the restraints & reasons given. He wants to use Chosen & he wants them as a retinue (basically). I kept with that theme. If he was asking about army builds, I wouldn't have given the same exact advice... I'd have probably just suggested a CSM squad as a bodyguard, because they're cheaper and he'd get more ablative wounds for the points. I still like LR transports more than Rhinos, but I probably wouldn't give one to any troop choice, other than a full sized squad of Berzerkers.
Of course, that's neither here, nor there...



You are correct there but (a) I was just pointing out a better transport, as he'd shown interest in having a transport and (b) I was looking at it more as another form of equipment (even though it IS a different slot on the Force Org chart).



Agreed.



Definitely a good point. I reiterate, though, that I was leaning towards being as purist as possible (for me) and working within certain constraints, rather than offering "what would be even better" or "just in case" scenarios.


Also... I looked up Termie units... Size is 3 - 10, so it's a non issue. IMO, They are FAR better as a bodyguard, equipped as I mentioned, than Chosen.
Termie with P-Fist is 40 points... Make him a Champ & he's 50
Chosen (not champ) with P-Fist is 43 points... make him a Champ & he's 53
(of course, you'll only have 1 Champ in Chosen, where you could have ALL Champs in Termies)

PLUS... Said Land Raider wouldn't use a Force Org slot for Termies.


I still don't think that Chosen are best set up as a shooty unit. A unit of Havocs can do just as good a job and do it cheaper.

8 Chosen (1 Champ with P-Fist, 4 Meltas)
Cost: 219

8 Havocs (1 Champ with P-Fist, 4 Meltas)
Cost: 200

IMO, A unit of Oblits for 225 is better than EITHER... but that's taking this topic WAY too far off base.

Honestly, you made some good points, but not enough for me to change my initial suggestion.
The way I suggested is the best way (IMO) to have Chosen that are intended to be used as a bodyguard for a Lord. With those parameters in mind, I think it's a no brainer.

Eric

One thing that I have like using chosen for is a quick moving firing squad.

5-6 Chosen with Plasma Guns/Melta in a rhino are great for taking out vehicles and other hard to hit infantry, like terminators. I used my Chosen in conjunction with some other rhino based CSM's and wasted a Demonhunters Lord and retinue with my plasma shots.

The rhino shoots up, using another rhino to screen the guys, they pop out, and lay waste to their target. Granted, they have a good chance of getting a "hot" roll, but their armor saves make it a decent risk.

Just another way to use these versatile guys.

Thanks for the responses, guys.

i guess I should have mentioned that the squad will be modelled as a squad of Fallen, and the reason I take the power-armored chosen over the mighty 2+ save terminators is that I want to take a rhino as a transport instead of a fire-magnet land raider. I will not likely be using a GD, as I play Alpha Legion [maybe one or two games, just to see if daemons are as 'raped' as everyone claims they are.], but that is a good point about leaving the champion bare.

Being a newer player, I am trying to keep my army balanced [and thanks to the new codex I can change my tactics mid-game if they aren't working out. BPCCWBolter FTW!] and having the Lord be the only real CC monster in my army would just be an insane waste of points. I was thinking of gearing them for CC, then maybe have a heavy weapon of some kind for some 1st turn "infilblasting" against vehicle side armour and MCs [when I use infiltrate, but then there's the matter of the lord getting up to the Chosen in their rhino without getting blasted to pieces!]. Then, when their cover is blown, they can charge the enemy for some CC carnage.

The ideas so far have been great, though. keep 'em coming!

-MP

Sounds nice, but in practice, "when their cover is blown" is probably the point where they're dead.