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Made in us
Willing Inquisitorial Excruciator





Agreed - that was one of the biggest letdowns for me with Mierce as well.

Aside from their complete and utter lack of creating a schedule and even coming close to hitting it.

Insidious Intriguer 
   
Made in fi
Chaplain with Hate to Spare






 Elemental wrote:

I don't think my interest in a game system has ever crashed as hard as it did when I read the Darklands rulebook. Desert-dry computer language to determine everything from "hitting" to "is it raining?" to "did your general get spooked by a black cat crossing his path?" with an incredible number of steps, and almost zero fluff.

Isn't that exactly what people are always saying that GW should do?

Only the insane have strength enough to prosper. Only those who prosper may truly judge what is sane. 
   
Made in us
Willing Inquisitorial Excruciator





Not that I've seen recently/ever?

Insidious Intriguer 
   
Made in fi
Chaplain with Hate to Spare






 Mysterio wrote:
Not that I've seen recently/ever?

People always say GW should write their rules in ultra precise manner and stop interjecting fluff in the rules.

Only the insane have strength enough to prosper. Only those who prosper may truly judge what is sane. 
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Dankhold Troggoth






Shadeglass Maze

The Darklands rules aren't precise, though - just needlessly complex without adding much to the gameplay (from what I've read and spoken to others about, at least).

Sometimes GW writes wacky, fun rules, but these aren't that either, unfortunately... and as mentioned there's usually a fluff reason (like skaven blowing themselves up or random goblin/troll actions, etc).

It looks like they realized this somewhat and are streamlining the next edition, so that's good! But I do think their major market has been collectors and counts-as, not so much for actual Darklands play. But obviously, people are more likely to collect for a system if the rules work well, so hopefully this next edition fixes many things that weren't optimal the first time.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/22 18:05:42


 
   
Made in ca
Mighty Kroxigor Ancient





California the Southern

I'd be willing to give the rules another shot. While quite technical I liked some of the core mechanic ideas. I didn't see anything wrong with all the optional rules you could include in your games. I think it was overwhelming in a presentation sense for sure though.

But I also really, REALLY want to see the fluff. I thoroughly enjoyed reading the blurbs that were on the web page and the early releases.

Poorly lit photos of my ever- growing collection of completely unrelated models!

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/627383.page#7436324.html
Watch and listen to me ramble about these minis before ruining them with paint!
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCmCB2mWIxhYF8Q36d2Am_2A 
   
Made in gb
Soul Token




West Yorkshire, England

 Crimson wrote:
 Mysterio wrote:
Not that I've seen recently/ever?

People always say GW should write their rules in ultra precise manner and stop interjecting fluff in the rules.


Rules should be clear, but there's such a thing as too dry and technical. If you read the rules for, say, Infinity, Warmachine or Malifaux, they manage to be both clear and readable. Being able to convey complex concepts with no ambiguity is important, but conveying them concisely is a different art entirely.

For example, in the Warmachine Mk3 rulebook, if I want to check the rules for "I charge my guy at this other guy to attack him", the rules for charging take up 3/4 of a page in the movement section, plus an illustrative diagram. If I need a definition of "melee range" or "engaging", then that's half a page in the combat section. Most of the text is dedicated to covering edge cases and being unambiguous about questions like "can I move through other models?" or "if I charge someone and have two attacks, can I use my second attack against a different target?" It's written like this.

Advancing:

Advancing refers to movement a model intentionally makes, not to involuntary movement caused by other effects, such as being pushed or slammed. A model can change its facing at any time durings its advance, but when it advances, it must always move in the direction it is facing. Make all measurements from the front of an advancing model's base.Determine the distance a model advances by measuring how far the leading edge of its base travels. The distance moved is absolute. Changing facing by rotating in place is still advancing even though the model's position on the table does not change. A model's base cannot pass over another model's base while advancing. This means that if a gap between the bases of two models is too small for another model's base to fit between them, the third model cannot move through that space.


So it's precise, but still easy to follow. After a few games, you don't need to check the rules at all except to check some edge case ("I take damage if I advance in the area of this effect, does that apply if I just turn on the spot?").

In Darklands, the rules just for "engagement actions" take up FOURTEEN PAGES. Even the bare-bones summary of this section goes on for almost half a page! And that's just engaging, moving has a page each dedicated to Walk, Run, March, Fly, Soar, Land, Burrow and Reform. And it's written in this sort of language:

6.11.3.2
Embedded Actions

Once the Engaging unit has performed its Engage and.....Move action, the Engaging unit immediately performs their chosen Engagement Embedded Action. The objects of this embedded action must be either the Engaging unit (in the case of an Inspire action, or an Invoke action upon the Engaging unit), the Engaged unit (shoot, spray, throw, gaze, drop, invoke, daunt, shriek) or both the Engaging and Engaged units (Roar actions) or, more indiscriminately, the Engaged unit and any nearby units (Shriek actions)


And if you're wondering, every one of those italicised actions needs a flip to a different bit of the 300+ page rulebook, and almost all of the book is made up of this dense, un-intuitive rules text. It's just such a slog to get through--only first-edition Spartan rulebooks compare, and they're at least shorter.

"The 75mm gun is firing. The 37mm gun is firing, but is traversed round the wrong way. The Browning is jammed. I am saying "Driver, advance." and the driver, who can't hear me, is reversing. And as I look over the top of the turret and see twelve enemy tanks fifty yards away, someone hands me a cheese sandwich." 
   
Made in us
Gnawing Giant Rat





Texas

I suppose I am in the minority on the game issue...I quite like the depth and recordkeeping aspect. Of course, I am a Star Fleet Battles player since the 1980s so I really like technical and grindy rules. But I am more of a fan of seeing Darklands expand and improve, and in that respect I do agree that the rules need to be more streamlined for the casual player.

Urusei Yatsura, Cerebus the Aardvark, Machiavelli, Plato and Happy Days. So, how was your childhood? 
   
Made in gb
Soul Token




West Yorkshire, England

 Sacredroach wrote:
I suppose I am in the minority on the game issue...I quite like the depth and recordkeeping aspect. Of course, I am a Star Fleet Battles player since the 1980s so I really like technical and grindy rules. But I am more of a fan of seeing Darklands expand and improve, and in that respect I do agree that the rules need to be more streamlined for the casual player.


It's not so much that they're technical and grindy, it's that they're poorly explained--complexity can be good or bad, needless complexity is never good.

One of the problems about the Darklands rules is that they stuff too much text in the rulebook that could very easily be farmed out to model profiles. The Roar and Daunt actions are a separate thing from the morale rules when they basically do the same "scare the enemy" thing and could very easily be folded in there. Drop and Throw actions have three pages each when there's no reason they can't just be represented as regular ranged attacks. Just so much needless complexity....

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/12/23 21:02:49


"The 75mm gun is firing. The 37mm gun is firing, but is traversed round the wrong way. The Browning is jammed. I am saying "Driver, advance." and the driver, who can't hear me, is reversing. And as I look over the top of the turret and see twelve enemy tanks fifty yards away, someone hands me a cheese sandwich." 
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut





What's odd is that the rules were available as a free PDF download whilst in development.
Many people offered suggestions along the lines of what's been mentioned here.
As soon as the book was published however, the free rules disappeared, and the only way to get them, was to cough up the money.
Now I feel if you want to proliferate a new miniatures board game in a very crowded market, you'd want those rules out there for as many people to see and play around with...
   
Made in us
Enigmatic Exalted Daemon





Albany, NY

yxalitis wrote:
What's odd is that the rules were available as a free PDF download whilst in development.
Many people offered suggestions along the lines of what's been mentioned here.
As soon as the book was published however, the free rules disappeared, and the only way to get them, was to cough up the money.
Now I feel if you want to proliferate a new miniatures board game in a very crowded market, you'd want those rules out there for as many people to see and play around with...
Speaking of which, I just got my Black Friday stuff from Mierce and they included a nice Darklands Quick Play Guide It's still pretty dense for quick start rules, but is a far sight better than the beta rules I tried to read through but gave up on

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/12/27 21:40:16


BLOODFIRE: KOW SALAMANDER REPORTS 
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut





My Wokor arrived.
It's VERY BIG, massive in fact!

Here's the 3D render

https://www.artstation.com/artwork/XBJzbL

But as I was cleaning it up, and pre-assmebling it, I kept having this nagging thought in my head...

Is this...not...a good miniature?

The first time I thought that was when I looked at the big resin block that serves as the base.

It is devoid of detail, just a huge slab of featureless resin with a slightly "rocky" texture.
There is even an obvious line where it looks like two pieces where joined together before moulding.

I'm sorry, buy why was zero effort made to add any interest points, at all anywhere on this HUGE block-o-rein?

Some skulls in an enclosure, some plants growing up in a crevace, a withered old tree clinging to the edge, some engravings chipped out of the surface?

I can't stress enough how massive this piece is, yet it has nothing of interest sculpted on it;

Secondly., the feathers...ooh boy...
I have another Mierce large feathered miniature:

Look at the feathers, each one is carefully detailed with veins running across each feather.

The feathers on the Wokor are very plain, and VERY thick, around 2mm at the tip.

Again, why was no effort spent adding in the delicate lines across the feather that makes SUCH a visual impact?

No discredit to Bob, the mini is great, well designed and sculpted, I just get the feeling he was told to finish it quickly without spending the time to add in features and details that I know he is perfect capable of!

I have his Encrusted Thuulac and Banbreca, both of whcih demonstrate Bob's skill and attention to detail.

The Wokor, however, looks plain in comparison, more like a Warhammer plastic model then a typical Mierce and Bob production.

Come on Mierce, this is NOT the standard I am used to nor expect from you guys.
   
Made in us
[DCM]
[***]






Svalarheima, MA

Any chance of some side by side pics of the details in question?

Nil nos tremefacit.
 
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut





 Alpharius wrote:
Any chance of some side by side pics of the details in question?

Yeah, I was going to do that when i get home...
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

Probably to some extent the difference between hand and 3d sculpting


Automatically Appended Next Post:
the feathers that is (but I agree I prefer the former, have we seen Bob tackle feathers before?)

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/01/02 00:09:28


 
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut





 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
Probably to some extent the difference between hand and 3d sculpting


Automatically Appended Next Post:
the feathers that is (but I agree I prefer the former, have we seen Bob tackle feathers before?)


No, sorry, Bob's other work has demonstrated vastly higher levels of detail already, all his stuff is 3D designed
As for his feathers, here are some other examples:
https://www.artstation.com/artwork/WodGX
Again, quite thick, and no veins across the feathers...however, these guys are smaller?
Not sure, but in any case, I think they need to have the veins included in the sculpt...
And nothing can forgive the base stone thing...
In all seriousness I could have sculpted something better with clay and a toothbrush...I get the feeling Bob was pushed to get this out super quick.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/02 00:17:58


 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

Ah in that case they're either deliberate (not impossible) or as you say rushed,

I would have preferred raven like feathers that he can clearly do but a plain rock doesn't bother me


 
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut





 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
Ah in that case they're either deliberate (not impossible) or as you say rushed,

I would have preferred raven like feathers that he can clearly do but a plain rock doesn't bother me


You really need to hold it your hands first...I'm not that worried by a plain rock base, but this is just awful.
This is the best I can get online so far, this lump of resin is about half a kilo, 18cm high, 8cm in diameter!
When it's that big, the lack of any details is far, far more obvious!
   
Made in gb
Mighty Gouge-Horn




Anor Londo

Regarding the rock, I'm not quite sure what the issue is. From the picture above I can see that it has some texture, I'm not sure how it could be made to look more realistic? The line where the two halves of the rock meet can be easily dealt with using putty, that kind of join is pretty common on large resin models.

Additional features such as skulls/bushes/creeping vines would be very easy to add, personally I think that it is fine.

I agree with you 100% on the feathers however, they are too thick and lack detail. You can clearly tell that the model has been designed using software and not by the traditional sculpting method by hand. For an organic model that is not a good look.
   
Made in us
Veteran Knight Baron in a Crusader




Ok, yeah, that is just awful. It's also confusing, since the skin and teeth clear have textures.

Just... not the feather blocks.

Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in gb
Fanatic with Madcap Mushrooms







Looks like a WIP to me.

   
Made in us
[DCM]
[***]






Svalarheima, MA

Yes, but yxalitis is saying that he has the actual model in hand, and that the lack of detail in the feathers is present (Ha!) there as well.

Hence, the request for side by side pics!

Nil nos tremefacit.
 
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut





OK, so here are the images
1st is the base next to a mini, so it's sheer size is apparent
2nd, Just the block, notice the join line (It came like that)
3rd, thickness of feathers
4th compared to another Mierce wing
5th now look at details compared between the two.
[Thumb - 20190102_184515.jpg]
Lump o' Resin

[Thumb - 20190102_184525.jpg]
See the join line

[Thumb - 20190102_184605.jpg]
dem thick feathers

[Thumb - 20190102_184648.jpg]
Another wing from Mierce...much nicer

[Thumb - 20190102_184659.jpg]
MUCH nicer wing

   
Made in ca
Mighty Kroxigor Ancient





California the Southern

The rock doesn't look that bad. With some shading and drybrushing it'll look like... a rock.

I'm with you on the feathers though. They look like ornamental armor rather than part of a living creature. A shame.


Poorly lit photos of my ever- growing collection of completely unrelated models!

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/627383.page#7436324.html
Watch and listen to me ramble about these minis before ruining them with paint!
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCmCB2mWIxhYF8Q36d2Am_2A 
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Dankhold Troggoth






Shadeglass Maze

Wow, the feathers look like they're from a toy, not a miniature... actually thought it was supposed to represent like a thick, metal, mechanical wing for a second.

On the rock, looks like you've putty'ed and textured over the join line on your built model, but I imagine without that it'd look like the render (i.e. much more noticeable).

Overall, I can't believe that mini was printed, mastered and cast as it is...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/03 00:49:59


 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





Agreeing with the others. The rock isn't much of an issue and it's really simple to add some flock or other basing material to it so it doesn't just look like a big rock.

The feathers are silly. Kind of dumbfounded they got approved.
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut





 RiTides wrote:
Wow, the feathers look like they're from a toy, not a miniature... actually thought it was supposed to represent like a thick, metal, mechanical wing for a second.

On the rock, looks like you've putty'ed and textured over the join line on your built model, but I imagine without that it'd look like the render (i.e. much more noticeable).

Overall, I can't believe that mini was printed, mastered and cast as it is...


Just to clarify, I haven't done anything to that rock, that's how it came!
And of COURSE i can add details, textures, features, etc to the rock.

Let's put it this way, it costs Mierce exactly the same to print, cast, and mold a rock lie this, as it is to mold a rock with lovely little details like the bases shown here.
zero extra cost...except the once-off cost of Bob spending more time on the design.

So, yes, of course i can modify the base...but surely with such a large and prominent feature of that mini...it should ahve come with more than a very, very basic "rocky" texture covering 100% of the surface.
[Thumb - gorthang-swamp-master-resin-model_1_e33ad55fb9f7cbf44cfd8e6b.jpg]

[Thumb - putty1__sized.jpg]

   
Made in us
[MOD]
Dankhold Troggoth






Shadeglass Maze

Ah - if you haven't done anything, it looks then like they printed the rock in two halves, then manually putty'ed over the join line before casting it as a single piece.

The feathers, are, of course, a lot bigger issue since there's absolutely nothing you can do about them...
   
Made in us
[DCM]
[***]






Svalarheima, MA

Thank you for the pictures yxalitis - much appreciated!

And yes, of course you are correct, and these new feathers are...not good.

And really not what I'd expect to see from Mierce.

It is disappointing, and I won't be picking up this miniature, unless it ends up getting redone at some point.

Nil nos tremefacit.
 
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut





Yep, I figure i'd have to hack all the feathers off, and get some of the wings as separate purchases from Mierce and glue them on instead.
And then get out the Dremel and make some features on the rock, a little cavity filled with skulls, add some hanging chains, etc etc

All up, this is a basic toy-like mini that needs a load of work to bring it up to speed, yet it has the Mierce price point.
   
 
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