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Anyways, I couldnt pass up a good deal, I bought 3 venoms, the codex and a Getting Started box set for $100. My thought was to run 3 5 man squads of warriors in venoms for another battlion. It would give my more static eldar some movement and cheap objective grabbing. So my questions, do I want to use the raider? As the warrior squads are 5 man and the venoms only hold 5, what about the HQs? I would bet I just take 2 archons correct? What equipment? And I want to take the bloody rose right to give my venoms a 6+ FNP? Any advice would be appreciated. I would guess Ill get rid of the 3 bikes and possibly the raider as I want to keep my Dark Eldar force fairly cheap pointwise so I dont lose out on too many eldar models.

A cheap Kabal battalion is an option. Two Archons is usually the way to go, but they are not really helpful.
An Archon is great if held close to three Ravagers improving their shooting.
Don't forget that going first is often the better option.
The cheap battalion gives you at least 3 more drops.

So would I be better doing 1 raider and 2 venoms? If I do 3 venoms and 3 squads of warriors, that means the archons are walking right as the capacity is 5. If I did a raider and 2 venoms I could put 1 squad of warriors and 2 archons in the raider and the 2 squads of warriors in the other 2 venoms. From my understanding raiders dont cost much more than venoms correct and I could trade the 3rd venom for say another archon and 5 warriors that I lack. How would you equip the archons?

If you are going for low drops then yes. If doing ITC and you dont care about drops but stopping secondaries, maybe not.

I personally like raiders a lot, and i normally play with a few and venoms too (1-2 ratio for me, so if i have 3 raiders its 6 venoms, but thats b.c i like that play style).

He used to be able to get a PGL+Blaster, so that was always the go to, but now they took that away from him..... such an iconic model loadout too.. ut b.c they took that away he is 100% melee now, or a RR1's auramancer. I play mine as a rr1's auramancer and sit him on objectives lol.

But i know many people that gives him a huskblade and blast pistol and goes fighting low attack characters, or vehicles to help tie them up and do damage.

So if I combine this detachment with an eldar host, he will not give the reroll ones to my eldar units (say guardians), only the dark eldar units correct? Are the dark eldar warriors anything more than warm bodies to try and take objectives? Their guns dont do much of anything do they?

sturguard wrote:
So if I combine this detachment with an eldar host, he will not give the reroll ones to my eldar units (say guardians), only the dark eldar units correct? Are the dark eldar warriors anything more than warm bodies to try and take objectives? Their guns dont do much of anything do they?

All abilities are Keyword based. Kabal warriors are mostly cheap bodies, but together shooting with a Venom they can clear some light trash or hurt a monster, they have poison 4+ vs everything but vehicles.

sturguard wrote:
So if I combine this detachment with an eldar host, he will not give the reroll ones to my eldar units (say guardians), only the dark eldar units correct? Are the dark eldar warriors anything more than warm bodies to try and take objectives? Their guns dont do much of anything do they?

I don't do eldar soup so I couldn't tell you for absolute certain but I think the re-rolls is kabal only so cult, coven and mercenary units don't get boosted. So basically only the archons, archon retinue (not sure if anybody takes them), warriors, trueborn (if you have the index), raiders in a kabal detachment only, ravagers and our planes in kabal detachments will have the re-roll 1's to hit. That said I don't think flyers really ever get it due to being so fast.

Archons want to be outside of transports so they don't get their transport shot to death and die in the resultant explosion. Also worth mentioning archons don't give boosts to anybody while their riding in transports which I think is kind of stupid esp. since it's open topped and even if they didn't the guys inside (including the archon themselves) don't want to be inspired by the archon's buffs.

I find warriors to be cheap in points but that's just me. The reason why is it's a BS 3+ guardsman that can have a special weapon every 5 guys. You also have to remember everything in our army aside from covens is squishy and will die esp. at close range. Talos and Grotesques can tank pretty well but that's it really. Can't say i'm the best guy for tactics so if Amish or a couple others disagree then listen to them.

As far as Ravagers go I always thought the go to was flayed skull so they avoid cover bonuses. I can't tell you how useful the 'avoid enemy's cover bonus' is but this is only on flyers or units transported in flyers. That said all the rapid fire weapons (mostly poison) get re-roll 1's to hit while in flying units. Of course that means your army will be heavily skimmer vehicles or flyers but that's ok because that's one of the main ways to play kabal if not THE way.

I'm surprised Amish warmed up to shredders though. I always thought he (she?) was still questioning the validity of shredders due to the short range. I'll admit i'm more skeptical too now but I think if you run reavers as a defensive line for shredder units in transports and don't put all your eggs in one basket with trueborn in venoms (something I sadly can't fix until I get more stuff) then you should be able to use shredder units for more than a turn or two.

 Amishprn86 wrote:


He used to be able to get a PGL+Blaster, so that was always the go to, but now they took that away from him..... such an iconic model loadout too.. ut b.c they took that away he is 100% melee now, or a RR1's auramancer. I play mine as a rr1's auramancer and sit him on objectives lol.

But i know many people that gives him a huskblade and blast pistol and goes fighting low attack characters, or vehicles to help tie them up and do damage.

WHAT?! WHEN?! I can't take blasters on my archons anymore? Did they get rid of index options and units? Are trueborn gone too then? To be fair I needed to stop using trueborn due to fragility but I don't think I have enough transports or bodies to run the warrior variants. I was only able to get trueborn with proper weapons due to scrapping some of my scourge units for special weapons.

I got the new codex and there are no true borns in there, I actually had to search a few times as I was thinking of taking a squad of them.

sturguard wrote:
I got the new codex and there are no true borns in there, I actually had to search a few times as I was thinking of taking a squad of them.

They are index only (xenos 1). I'm just not sure if they sell that any more. That said dark eldar do better as MSU so keep your units fairly cheap per squad and maybe the enemy will waste shots as well as morale not taking a big effect.

flamingkillamajig wrote:

sturguard wrote:
So if I combine this detachment with an eldar host, he will not give the reroll ones to my eldar units (say guardians), only the dark eldar units correct? Are the dark eldar warriors anything more than warm bodies to try and take objectives? Their guns dont do much of anything do they?

I don't do eldar soup so I couldn't tell you for absolute certain but I think the re-rolls is kabal only so cult, coven and mercenary units don't get boosted. So basically only the archons, archon retinue (not sure if anybody takes them), warriors, trueborn (if you have the index), raiders in a kabal detachment only, ravagers and our planes in kabal detachments will have the re-roll 1's to hit. That said I don't think flyers really ever get it due to being so fast.

Archons want to be outside of transports so they don't get their transport shot to death and die in the resultant explosion. Also worth mentioning archons don't give boosts to anybody while their riding in transports which I think is kind of stupid esp. since it's open topped and even if they didn't the guys inside (including the archon themselves) don't want to be inspired by the archon's buffs.

I find warriors to be cheap in points but that's just me. The reason why is it's a BS 3+ guardsman that can have a special weapon every 5 guys. You also have to remember everything in our army aside from covens is squishy and will die esp. at close range. Talos and Grotesques can tank pretty well but that's it really. Can't say i'm the best guy for tactics so if Amish or a couple others disagree then listen to them.

As far as Ravagers go I always thought the go to was flayed skull so they avoid cover bonuses. I can't tell you how useful the 'avoid enemy's cover bonus' is but this is only on flyers or units transported in flyers. That said all the rapid fire weapons (mostly poison) get re-roll 1's to hit while in flying units. Of course that means your army will be heavily skimmer vehicles or flyers but that's ok because that's one of the main ways to play kabal if not THE way.

I'm surprised Amish warmed up to shredders though. I always thought he (she?) was still questioning the validity of shredders due to the short range. I'll admit i'm more skeptical too now but I think if you run reavers as a defensive line for shredder units in transports and don't put all your eggs in one basket with trueborn in venoms (something I sadly can't fix until I get more stuff) then you should be able to use shredder units for more than a turn or two.

 Amishprn86 wrote:


He used to be able to get a PGL+Blaster, so that was always the go to, but now they took that away from him..... such an iconic model loadout too.. ut b.c they took that away he is 100% melee now, or a RR1's auramancer. I play mine as a rr1's auramancer and sit him on objectives lol.

But i know many people that gives him a huskblade and blast pistol and goes fighting low attack characters, or vehicles to help tie them up and do damage.

WHAT?! WHEN?! I can't take blasters on my archons anymore? Did they get rid of index options and units? Are trueborn gone too then? To be fair I needed to stop using trueborn due to fragility but I don't think I have enough transports or bodies to run the warrior variants. I was only able to get trueborn with proper weapons due to scrapping some of my scourge units for special weapons.

You can still technically take Blaster/PGL but not for events or locations that don't play legends, here is the link for more information https://www.warhammer-community.com/legends/

flamingkillamajig wrote:

sturguard wrote:
I got the new codex and there are no true borns in there, I actually had to search a few times as I was thinking of taking a squad of them.

They are index only (xenos 1). I'm just not sure if they sell that any more. That said dark eldar do better as MSU so keep your units fairly cheap per squad and maybe the enemy will waste shots as well as morale not taking a big effect.

They also don't sell Index's anymore and haven;t for about a year now, the flow chart is also technically removed from the website faq page, tho its in the archive pages still.

Oh shoot then I guess I haven't technically played with a legal army for a while now. Guess I should keep up with the updates. To be fair trueborn were a little too expensive as is anyway. Would've been nice to keep them with a serious points reduction though.

As far as chaff clearing yeah I'd say warriors in venoms. Shredders can be fun against all infantry short of custodes and maybe death guard but unless you have a screen the terribly short range means they can be attacked and destroyed easily.

Poison is a strange beast these days. In 8th you need flayed skull if you take it in venoms otherwise any marine unit in cover gets a 2+ save and anything with 2+ in general makes poison struggle. In reality it is more a light infantry, monstrous infantry (ogryns, grotesques, hive guard and abberrants) and small monster killer (carnifex and anything with less than 10 wounds). Don't ever use poison vs riptides. Every multiple wound model got more wounds for the most part and poison has stayed at 1 damage per shot for dark eldar as well as having no ap value except in very specific situations and generally not enough to matter much.

I also kind of wish they made splinter cannons heavy but assault on vehicles so I could shoot 12 shots at 36" range like before on them but what are you gonna do.

No, if they where heavy that would suck for all infantry, which should be a valid option if GW could balance better.

I'm looking to start Drukhari. I'm not planning to enter any ITC's or other major tournaments, just play at the local level against average players.

I really love the Lelith model. For non-comp play is she a good choice for a Wych cult? The rules make her sound really good.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
No, if they where heavy that would suck for all infantry, which should be a valid option if GW could balance better.

Do you take them on infantry? I just hate having to get close for rapid fire to go off. Also at that point you may as well take shredders since the long distance pumps out far too shots to be viable. Of course you either take shredders on a ds unit or you put them in a transport.

Oh so it isn't a valid option like I thought. Personally a 36" range, 6 shot weapon just feels better than a rapid fire 3 weapon whether it's assault or heavy. I don't think splinter cannons were ever good outside of on venoms.

@jivardi: You have to take wych cult of strife if you take her which is +1 attack on the charge I think. If i recall early on red grief was the go to cult but wych cults got way better in phoenix rising. I never really used wych cults until the Phoenix rising book. I imagine Amish is the way better guide here for them if you want to take lelith.

Hey guys, I’m an ITC beginner with a tournament coming up. Is there any decent resource for which secondaries to pick in different situations?

Lifeistorment wrote:
Hey guys, I’m an ITC beginner with a tournament coming up. Is there any decent resource for which secondaries to pick in different situations?

This is incredibly list and stratagy-dependent. MOST army builds will generally be built TO at least two of the secondaries. For example, two tougher minimum sized squads for Engineers will be included or Recon if your strategy is very threat forward. Old School is good if you have excellent first turn strike ability (unlike GK who do absolutely nothing in T1).

Typically Recon is a no brainer default for most Dark Eldar forces. We live on speed. We also probably do well with Marked For Death(naming four targets of PL 7 or higher which we must kill at some point during the game). We have the firepower and usually those are priority targets anyways.

The third one will likely be dependent on the enemy army and there's no telling on that one. WHEN IN DOUBT choose Old School. It's your fall back choice if no other choice seems obvious.

 Jancoran wrote:

Lifeistorment wrote:
Hey guys, I’m an ITC beginner with a tournament coming up. Is there any decent resource for which secondaries to pick in different situations?

This is incredibly list and stratagy-dependent. MOST army builds will generally be built TO at least two of the secondaries. For example, two tougher minimum sized squads for Engineers will be included or Recon if your strategy is very threat forward. Old School is good if you have excellent first turn strike ability (unlike GK who do absolutely nothing in T1).

Typically Recon is a no brainer default for most Dark Eldar forces. We live on speed. We also probably do well with Marked For Death(naming four targets of PL 7 or higher which we must kill at some point during the game). We have the firepower and usually those are priority targets anyways.

The third one will likely be dependent on the enemy army and there's no telling on that one. WHEN IN DOUBT choose Old School. It's your fall back choice if no other choice seems obvious.

That’s exactly what I needed thanks. It’s all kabal in venoms, trip ravagers and 4 flyers.

Thanks

Any experience playing vs. Imperial Fists or Crimson Fists?
Their special rules can be a pain for enemy tanks.

 wuestenfux wrote:
Any experience playing vs. Imperial Fists or Crimson Fists?
Their special rules can be a pain for enemy tanks.

Have range. Kill theirs. Lol.

 Jancoran wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
Any experience playing vs. Imperial Fists or Crimson Fists?
Their special rules can be a pain for enemy tanks.

Have range. Kill theirs. Lol.

Indeed, Venoms, Raiders and Ravagers have enough range,
but not the flyers. With their movement they might end up close.

 wuestenfux wrote:
Any experience playing vs. Imperial Fists or Crimson Fists?
Their special rules can be a pain for enemy tanks.

I know I'd like to not experience playing against them again...

Pretty sure Covens are the way to fight them, Kabals and Cults rely too heavily on vehicles which their combat doctrines completely dismantle. Meanwhile they don't get any bonus against Talos, because they lack the vehicle keyword.

 wuestenfux wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
Any experience playing vs. Imperial Fists or Crimson Fists?
Their special rules can be a pain for enemy tanks.

Have range. Kill theirs. Lol.

Indeed, Venoms, Raiders and Ravagers have enough range,
but not the flyers. With their movement they might end up close.

Fly sideways round 1

IF and CF are hard to fight these days.
Lots of poisoned shots and disintegrators are the way to go.
I find it rather annoying that Aggressors got another wound (3W in toto).
They are key to remove if the enemy fields them.

So lately I was somewhat convinced by a friend that maybe blaster warriors aren't the best way to go. I often learn lessons and then forget them. Usually it feels like the blaster weapon is not good just due to range because if you're that close a whole gun-line will probably light you up soon. Also even 120 warriors would probably take enough damage against higher tier armies like tau before managing to do much. Ugh I just don't know.

Another friend also pointed out why I'm unsure about taking shredders on foot against power armor because mere cover negates the ap they have. For this reason flayed skull is still attractive for facing power armor armies and just the negates cover boost when flying is good enough.

I was also thinking of maybe using 3 5 man units of haywire scourge for the off chance I face vehicles with inv saves but I don't imagine they'll live long and coven do it better. The scourge use will be a temporary answer. I'm just bummed that vs tau it'll be mostly worthless against all those riptides and non vehicle units.

Well... nothing works for Kabals on foot, they are T3, 5+ save, theya re guardsmen. If they are not in a vehicle they should get nothing.

I honestly think they'd be ok on foot but not with blasters due to short range putting them in the enemy's teeth and definitely not against an army like tau. That said I've never had trouble killing loads of guardsmen when I get close with shredders. Not to mention the firepower of armies is constantly getting ramped up.

I might just take warriors in raiders so I can have 2 blasters and just spam raiders. There's no -1 To hit but I can spam blasters easier that way. Venoms can spit out more poisoned shots however and might be better for anti infantry. I feel like against armies with bs 3+ or better raiders are the superior choice anyway. Of course I do face tau and spammed venoms could annoy them more.

Well I'll probably get more models tomorrow.

Nevermind- misread last post

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
I honestly think they'd be ok on foot but not with blasters due to short range putting them in the enemy's teeth and definitely not against an army like tau. That said I've never had trouble killing loads of guardsmen when I get close with shredders. Not to mention the firepower of armies is constantly getting ramped up.

I might just take warriors in raiders so I can have 2 blasters and just spam raiders. There's no -1 To hit but I can spam blasters easier that way. Venoms can spit out more poisoned shots however and might be better for anti infantry. I feel like against armies with bs 3+ or better raiders are the superior choice anyway. Of course I do face tau and spammed venoms could annoy them more.

Well I'll probably get more models tomorrow.

Raiders honestly are just as tough b.c its 4 more wounds, the problem is vs stuff like Plasma there is no reason not to overcharge it where against venom's they wont.

I'm playing around with the idea of 12 raiders (I have 9 currently so i need 3 more before i can actually test it to make sure it works) i think Coven raiders are very strong, +1 to wound and Damage is extremely strong on DC's, 4+ to wound instead of 5+ or 2+ vs marines, and that +1 damage will kill off those 3 wound marines, and kill off vehicles easier aswell.

I'm also thinking about a null deployment other than vehicles, 12 Raiders with nothing in them, the 3 units of wracks hide (engineer most likely), 3 Mandrakes and 3 Scourges (Yes they are weak and easy to be killed but the idea is if i don't need them right away i wait till turn to drop).

Basically the idea is to just make sure no more than 2 dies a turn, turn 1 if even ever going first i'll have 36 s5, +1w, -3, 3D shots, tried it against a SM friend once (he had 1 Repulsor and 2 Dreads, IH list, not 100% optimized but the generic list type of IH list) and it was terrible for him, then turn 2 when the Scourges/Mandrakes came down i killed off basically the rest of his army.

So now i need to get more Raiders and play more games, but as i only play 2-3 games a month for 40k anymore (more into AoS atm) its hard to justify it b.c IDK what is going to happen to Quins in PA or if 8th will change again, heck if 9th comes out.


Edit: Forgot to say, thats an 1850 list, IDK what i want to do for 2k, i was thinking adding in another HQ like Drazhar so i can have 10CP instead of 9 CP (right now its a Battalion and a Vanguard, but i could also add in an outrider), i also could drop the 1 unit of 10 Wracks to a 5mana nd take Drazhar+Raider lol, so that'll be 13 raiders.

So remember how I said a page or 2 back that our competitive list was basically spam dissies? Yeah well you seem to be proving that true.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
So remember how I said a page or 2 back that our competitive list was basically spam dissies? Yeah well you seem to be proving that true.

But thats not fully true tho, venom spam still works, and so does Coven, i'm seeing 9 Talos lists work out amazingly.

Oh I know but your entire list right now is basically spam dissies with zero variation. In fact that is being very kind to it since it is the exact same unit. I mean i figured rule of 3 per 2k pts was an attempt to prevent this very thing. I realize we're supposed to keep our firepower spread out and do msu as dark eldar but i mean come on man. This will sadly probably be corrected in a faq or something while gw doesnt touch their precious marines at all though.