Orlanth wrote:
Does it matter, it's all Wave 2 now.

 infinite_array wrote:
The Black Night is available, and it's 24.99.

That's a hard fething pass from me. That's crazy expensive. That's an entire Clan Star with the new redesigns in plastic.

 infinite_array wrote:
It is made in the US instead of China, so there's that.

I would be willing to pay the same as a IWM mech, but not more.

chaos0xomega wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:
Does it matter, it's all Wave 2 now.

It matters in the sense that if doghouse set his shipping to wave 2 then hes being a massive gakhead who created his own problems and isn't taking responsibility for it.
?

 Ghaz wrote:
They had 300 kits and they sold out in an amount of time that would make Games Workshop proud...

chaos0xomega wrote:
Being made in the US isn't entirely an excuse.

chaos0xomega wrote:
Yeah, what HBMC said. They were available for sale for at least 20-30 minutes. GW sells out in like 5.

 kodos wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
Being made in the US isn't entirely an excuse.

it is the main excuse for GW prices, so why shouldn't it be an excuse for them (and to bring the other arguments, yo have to pay the designers and all the other stuff etc.

beast_gts wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
Yeah, what HBMC said. They were available for sale for at least 20-30 minutes. GW sells out in like 5.

Selling 10 a minute is impressive, especially as they were limited to one per customer.

chaos0xomega wrote:

Thats not GWs excuse at all.

chaos0xomega wrote:
Considering how large the Battletech fanbase is, no it really isn't.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Not sure how to feel about the $25 pricetag. You get the extra leg variant for the Clanbuster, meaning poses will be able to be mixed up if you want.

On the other hand, Miniature Market was selling Salvage Boxes for around $14-$20 so maybe the $25 isn't that crazy?

The Stormcrow will be a bit more of a test I think, as it only features different weapons.

chaos0xomega wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Not sure how to feel about the $25 pricetag. You get the extra leg variant for the Clanbuster, meaning poses will be able to be mixed up if you want.

On the other hand, Miniature Market was selling Salvage Boxes for around $14-$20 so maybe the $25 isn't that crazy?

The Stormcrow will be a bit more of a test I think, as it only features different weapons.

MM pricing them at $14-20 is more because of them setting their own prices for a product without an MSRP based on supply and demand during a time of product shortage more than anything else. Catalyst was selling them directly for $5-6 - retailers paid the same price for them (i.e. there wasn't a wholesale discount offered) so retailers had to set their own higher price in order to build in a profit margin, free salvage boxes included in their pledge rewards notwithstanding. To my knowledge the salvage boxes are not meant to be retail products at all (IIRC they were exclusive to the kickstarter and direct sales by catalyst only) and seemingly these plastic kits will potentially also be direct sales only, though that seems uncertain. If they were a retail product, I could understand them being priced at $25 due to the wholesale and retail markups, etc. (which in keeping with the industry rule of thumb generally means the MSRP is 5x the cost of production and overhead/logistics, in this case that would mean $5) - but I still wouldn't buy them at that price from my FLGS. I struggle to see the MSRP being *more* than $25 if they did put this out to retail, so I'm assuming the $25 would be the MSRP if they pursued that path of distribution - if thats the case then I think CGL would be much better off keeping these a direct sales only item and selling them in the $10-15 range instead. I very much doubt the product line will be a financial success or a hit with retailers at a $25 msrp, whereas they will sell like hotcakes at a lower price point.

Lorcan Nagle wrote:The Black Knight that was sold on the CGL store is produced by Creative Juggernaut, a new company helmed by Blaine Lee Pardoe and Brent Evans, so the production economy here is entirely separate from the Kickstarter. The Black Knight is made from higher quality materials than the CGL plastics to boot.

Creative Juggernaut wrote:Recognizing a Little Victory as a Big Deal - for BattleTech!

Good morning BattleTech fans. Last night, between 4:03-5:01PM Pacific Time, something momentous happened (in the real world) of BattleTech – as the first limited production run of plastic miniatures made in the U.S. went on sale in Catalyst’s webstore. An email went out to some KS backers that they could finally buy the new ‘Clanbuster’ Black Knight, a frenzy of orders were placed, and in just under an hour the entire print run sold out.

Like all truly momentous events there were a lot of emotions and perspectives on the way things unfolded, but we wanted to offer a perspective most haven’t realized yet – that this little special event mini selling out that fast may be one of the biggest achievements for the BattleTech line – and all the players – in decades.

Here’s why…

Most gamers today are savvy enough to know that “the big game” of making games is a very high-risk endeavor. Costs are high and can fluctuate wildly. Logistics like materials, shipping, distribution & warehousing can be incredibly complex, and (since the pandemic) can dramatically change in ways that defy all comprehension. And every step in that process takes time. Then you add-in production overseas and all those risk-time factors multiply. This is the biggest reason why we gamers have seen so many game companies fold over the last decade. The nuances of working with foreign suppliers can hamstring or cripple companies.

So when Creative Juggernaut approached Catalyst with the news that we were starting a production shop in the U.S. to make plastic minis, they were justifiably skeptical for many reasons. Would we even be able to get the materials? Could we deliver an acceptable quality? Would the fans of today even want plastic unassembled plastic miniatures? What would the actual demand be? Would the costs associated with plastic production in the U.S. be prohibitive?

And there it was… that last question was the lynchpin upon which everything else hung. Could the fanbase swallow unassembled plastic miniatures at a price that a U.S.-made plastic miniature would have to carry in order to be truly viable?

Yesterday the fanbase answered that question like a Gauss Rifle shot to the face – YES!

Catalyst may play the “big game” safe and conservative, but they absolutely know how to double down on a good thing. Within the hour of the ‘Clanbuster’ selling out, Loren Coleman was on the phone with our company to arrange a second print run and to discuss how many, and how fast, we could produce them. And therein lies the magic folks – the reason why the Black Knight selling out that fast was such a victory for all of us fans of BattleTech… because we can make more, and do so quickly. No fighting for position in the production queues, no waiting 2-3 months for international shipping, no haggling with liaisons who don’t speak English or who will agree to anything whether they can deliver it or not. One call, to a friend, and within a month you can have more… and we can keep on making them until everyone who wants one (or 10) has them in their mini-loving clutches.
It is important to note one thing and that is the price. Creative Juggernaut is manufacturing in the United States. Our prices will never be competitive with China or other overseas manufacturing. The final purchase price is set by Catalyst, not by Juggernaut. The tradeoff for a slightly higher price is that we can respond faster than a restock from an offshore company.

BOOM! That’s an Atlas-sized mic drop right there.

This is only the beginning. Here is a summary of our plans in regards to ‘Mech minis:
• The Juggernaut team interpreted early on that the demand was going to exceed the initial order. Call it gut instinct. So, on our own dime, assuming all of the risk, we kicked off producing the next production run of Black Knights. That began two weeks ago. We didn’t even tell Catalyst. As such, we should have the next batch of BKs heading out to Catalyst at the end of the month.
• We’ll also have the next ‘Mech to release – the Stormcrow Tukayyid Configuration out to Catalyst around the end of the month as well. So keep an eye out for that in July. We are going to put that in steady-state production as well in anticipation of the same level of demand.
• We are already prepping the next two ‘Mechs for production this summer.
Getting the Black Knight and Stormcrow out helped us refine production techniques and validated our proof of concept. Juggernaut and Catalyst are working together so that eventually we’ll be able to release sourcebooks right alongside the new mechs to the game, all while supplying the demand for previous releases without having to worry about selling out of a print run (because we can easily just make more.) That right there is the goal we are ultimately working toward, and it’s something the BattleTech game line has never had. All of this is happening in the background, as well as working on our own exciting game system and miniatures line for Land & Sea.

So were there frustrations yesterday? Yes of course there were. The announcement didn’t go to the whole fanbase, it wasn’t widely announced in advance, folks chaffed at the one-per-customer limit, the cost was higher than any similar mini, International fans choked on the shipping costs, and quantities were limited to a degree such that many fans didn’t get one. All of those frustrations are totally valid and from what we have been told, Catalyst absolutely heard you.

But amidst such frustrations I recommend we all keep our eyes on the Primary Objective here gang – because this opens the doors for many new and exciting opportunities and products for the fans in the coming years.
With that tactical victory in hand, and knowing there is demand for a miniatures product line like this, Catalyst can absolutely invest the time and money to fix all those frustration points so that this becomes a much smoother, user-friendly process. We overcame enormous obstacles to get to this moment, and now we can move forward like Clan Invaders through Rasalhague.

So keep your targeting systems downrange, and eyes on the big picture, people. This first wave was only the beginning…

chaos0xomega wrote:
Yeah thats not really any new information to most of us. Likewise its also not really a good explanation. I have a pretty good grasp on the costs of plastics manufacturing in both the US and China, manufacturing in the US is more expensive, but its not *that* much more expensive. On average, the cost of producing in the US is somewhere between 2-3x more than the cost of doing it in China (particularly once you factor in all the additional costs involved with doing business in China like contracting independent QA firms, freight brokerage and insurance, etc.).

Theres definitely additional costs on the US side of the equation if you're also having to set up facilities, purchase equipment, hire and train staff, etc. etc. so I can't comment on Creative Juggernaughts full scope of finances, but most of this is stuff that should be amortized over time and a range of products and factored out as part of an economy of scale. If they really thought that demand for this was so low that 300 units seemed a reasonable production run, then I could see why they would set the price as high as they did - but if they were really that un-confident about the products viability they probably should have gone for resin minis instead as theres basically zero justification in investing into plastics for a few hundred minis.

EDIT - This was directed at the quote from CGLs forums, not the relatively more transparent post from CJ

 Nurglitch wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
Yeah thats not really any new information to most of us. Likewise its also not really a good explanation. I have a pretty good grasp on the costs of plastics manufacturing in both the US and China, manufacturing in the US is more expensive, but its not *that* much more expensive. On average, the cost of producing in the US is somewhere between 2-3x more than the cost of doing it in China (particularly once you factor in all the additional costs involved with doing business in China like contracting independent QA firms, freight brokerage and insurance, etc.).

Theres definitely additional costs on the US side of the equation if you're also having to set up facilities, purchase equipment, hire and train staff, etc. etc. so I can't comment on Creative Juggernaughts full scope of finances, but most of this is stuff that should be amortized over time and a range of products and factored out as part of an economy of scale. If they really thought that demand for this was so low that 300 units seemed a reasonable production run, then I could see why they would set the price as high as they did - but if they were really that un-confident about the products viability they probably should have gone for resin minis instead as theres basically zero justification in investing into plastics for a few hundred minis.

EDIT - This was directed at the quote from CGLs forums, not the relatively more transparent post from CJ

It might depend on the technologies involved and why they were doing it; testing the waters for demand, for example, or using Master-Unit Dies and vinyl plastic might make more sense than traditional resin molding.

God and Davion wrote:Since I painted two of those bad boys I can shed some light about the quality and some details.


They are resin miniatures, not plastic. The resin quality is good and I didn't have issues with the infamous air bubbles of doom. There are slight mold lines in some pieces and a minor problem in the back. It is nothing serious and that puts them on par with the best resin casted miniatures I have ever seen. They are above finecast and some forge world miniatures. Also, it is quite better than most of the metal miniatures and way better than the plastics. Those are some the best casts I have seen for Battletech.

The details are quite sharp and some pieces, like the extra hands, are very nice. In fact, some details are so small that you should be careful while cleaning. The parts for the variant, especially the sword, have the same level of details than the rest of the sculpt. This is not a plastic Black Knight full of details with a crude sword as an extra. The variant is the real deal.

Cleaning took me about half an hour. As a reference, it is half less than a metal miniature. The techniques you use for cleaning metal works almost exactly the same way with those resins. My only advice is to use a mask when sanding, resins in general are not very healthy if you inhale the dust. A regular mask will be more than enough.

Parts and reposing. The number of parts is high (2 hands, 2 arms, one torso, one head, one hip/leg and one leg) but it is not hard to glue them together. Just use superglue like with a regular metal miniature. We were asked to not repose the miniatures. Having said that, it is quite easy to repose the miniatures. The joints are spherical but they have a peg that allows you to glue them in a fixed position easily. You can sand them without worries and then the joints become fully posable. Even without the pegs the surface to glue the pieces is still quite big so it shouldn't be a problem. Since the blister comes with 2 left legs, there is a big degree of freedom. I am not telling you that you can use the spare leg to repose the plastic Black Knight or even use the spare hands (actually, I am telling you just that ).

All in all, a great way to have a good variant of the Black Knight. Expensive? Yes, it is expensive. Overpriced? No. It is a good quality short run resin model and that means that it is not cheap.

And, since this wall of text is too long... here is a picture of the Black Knight I am talking about. Enjoy

 H.B.M.C. wrote:


Add to that that Catalyst's shipping isn't great for anyone outside a 10m radius of their office, so that's a major hard pass.