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Hey all,

     I am starting a fledgling tyranid force and could use a few pointers. I fight orks 75% of the time seeing as that is what my best friend plays and it is rare when I can get out to fight others. He uses some random IG units for fun with his force, otherwise it is troopheavy with the usual dreads, looted tanks(russ) etc...(sorry for lack of specifics, I can get them if people need them. I do know his IG units are some stormtroopers and catachan snipers) We usually play 500-1500 pt games and I want 2-4 fexes in my force.

    I read the article on equipping fexes and considering how troop heavy my opponent is I felt like a dakkafex, gunfex and a mix (dakka/gun gun/CC etc... I am not sure) would fit the bill.

    So I am asking if this is a sound plan or if I am missing something out of the gate. I would also like some opinions on how things are going to change for nids vs orks with the advent of the new ork codex.

    Any thoughts or opinions from more experienced nid players would be much appreciated.

The beauty of the Dakkafex is there's pretty much no situation it will find itself in that it won't be a great value. Considering the other Elites slots in the Nids list, there's really no reason not to have 3 Dakkafexes in every single list. Well, ok, maybe there are sportsmanship reasons, and maybe not in lists under 1000 points, but otherwise, they're just too strong not to take.

Gunfexes are expensive and not that spectacular at shooting, but they're extremely hard to shoot down, since they're also extremely easy to park in cover and blast away. They're not as good as Dakkafexes point for point, but they're a good choice.

Any other Fex build is pretty sub optimal. They're too vulnerable to Klaws/Fists in CC, and cost too much to get their points back, especially against Orks.

Don't bother reinventing the Godzilla wheel. It's been figured out by the powergamers, so just decide if you want to powergame your list, or if you want to have fun. Personally I think Crushing Claws and Sything Talons look very cool together, so if I didn't mind spending 5 hours painting a model I know is a waste of points, I'd totally have one.

Suggested Fex build vs orks? Same as the sugegsted Fex build vs everyone else, sad to say. Phryxis has nailed it.

Posted By Phryxis on 11/08/2007 11:39 PM
Considering the other Elites slots in the Nids list, there's really no reason not to have 3 Dakkafexes in every single list. Well, ok, maybe there are sportsmanship reasons, and maybe not in lists under 1000 points, but otherwise, they're just too strong not to take.

 

You don't have a choice in a list <1500pts. You can't take them.

Why not?

Posted By jfrazell on 11/09/2007 6:33 AM
Why not?

Because the Codex says so.

Both gunfexes and dakkafexes are great. The gunfex gives you a large template to thin the hordes and vehicle hunting. The dakkafexes depending on the build may be a hindrance with thier 18 inch range allowing orks to charge sooner against a speed freak type build they would be golden.

Sounds about what I was thinking. I am trying to sidestep cheese a little bit because I play my friends, but I also love having excess amounts of guns (my marines love their assault cannons and my friends are already used to that) so I may just try and be fair by taking fewer fexes, maybe a less utilitarian fex just for fun and such (godfex perhaps).

I also wanted to ask if loading out one of my tyrants with 2 TL devourers was effective (whether flyrant or not) because unless I am mistaken that is 12 str 4 or 5 (dep on Toxin sacs) shots rerolling hits and wounds on a possibly winged creature, eek.

First, I would build an all comers army if you are new to nids.  You will end up using these models most of the time.  Yes alot of carnifex are powerful, but definatley up there in cheeze with 3 falcons.  Second, its not really fair for your friend to use orks and guard together, the compliment each others weakness and make a team no ordinary army could fight.  Tell him its ok for him to use that, as long as you can use your half nid half eldar or tau army.  Skitterings swarms of steelers blocked by hormagaunts backed up by ion heads and falcons will even it up for you.

I think it would be worth taking the trouble to magnetise your models if you really want to field "fun" configurations. It lets you play around with some of the more ridiculous configurations and not be worried that you've blown your cash on a model that is necessarily rubbish on the battlefield.

As for the dual TL-Ds, I'd save them for the Flyrant. The walking one would do better with the standard configuration due to range.

kadun wrote:

Posted By jfrazell on 11/09/2007 6:33 AM
Why not?

Because the Codex says so.

Actually there's nothing in the codex that says you can't take a Carnifex equipped as a Dakkafex in a game of less than 1500 points. You absolutely CAN!

What you can't do is slot them as an ELITE choice (Shocktroops) in a list ofless than 1500 points.

So go on with your 3 Dakkafex... just realize that they will all be Heavy Support choices in a game of less than 1500 points.

While you are at it, since they don't have to be 114 points or less as a Heavy Support choice... add something to give them a little more defensive help. Maybe +1 Toughness or +1 wound will do the trick. That keeps them pretty cost effective for the damage they can dish out plus you will have them hanging around longer to dish out even more!
I like the additional toughness because it reduces the amount of small arms shooting that threatens you (a lot of rapidfire weapons) inside 18". It doesn't negate all the rapidfire weapons' (but it does negate some) ability to wound, however it turns those STR5 rapidfire shots into 'wounds on 6's instead of wounds on 5's. That's just nice, especially since the base 3+ save is going to be there against those same weapons.

Rockit wrote:

kadun wrote:

Posted By jfrazell on 11/09/2007 6:33 AM
Why not?

Because the Codex says so.

Actually there's nothing in the codex that says you can't take a Carnifex equipped as a Dakkafex in a game of less than 1500 points. You absolutelyCAN!

What you can't do is slot them as an ELITE choice (Shocktroops) in a list ofless than 1500 points.

yup, maybe I should have been clearer - I was quoting the bit of the post about there being nothing else in the elite slot to compare to a dakkafex.

puree wrote:yup, maybe I should have been clearer - I was quoting the bit of the post about there being nothing else in the elite slot to compare to a dakkafex.

That observation was definately on target Puree, nothing as an Elite to compare with a Dakkafex!

I think Lictors are amazing. But they're also all or nothing. In a big game, I routinely field 2 or 3, and they almost always do their job.

Given that I usually field Lictors, 1 squad of warriors (sometimes can be HQ), 1 or 2 elite carnifexes and 1-2 heavy ones works well.

I think the whole 6 Carnifex has been overdone, and it's kinda cheesy. My solution to that is to not allow any proxies. If you really want to play 6 fexes, you'd better have 6 fex models.

I think a 138pt carnifex build would do fine vs. orks... ES:BS, Reinforced Chitin, Barbed Strangler, TL-Dev. You can hit mobs hard at range and then hollow out the ones which do come after you while still having a shot at knocking out the trukks with either weapon.

If you want to spend more points, give them +1T on top of that extra wound!

bucheonman wrote:I think the whole 6 Carnifex has been overdone, and it's kinda cheesy. My solution to that is to not allow any proxies. If you really want to play 6 fexes, you'd better have 6 fex models.

There is no cheese in 40K. It's in the Codex, it's legal, play it, enjoy.

I do agree on the proxy, but only if it's a tournament. Friendly games, if someone wants to, you're either going to play them or not.

Don't take the "Dakkafex". They're too slow and short-ranged to be of any real use, which is why they're cheap. Devastators, Broadsides, Chosen, Heavy Weapon Squads, Havocs, Crisis Suits, and basically anything toting a few anti-tank weapons will vapourize them in short order, and if you maximize on the number of Carnifexes then you're losing the masses of Termagants and Hormugaunts that do the real work in the army.

Your friend's snipers will use them for target practice, and if he takes Lootas or any other high-power Ork weapons that outrange Devourers then you'll basically be playing from a handicap. If you're going to play Orks lots then I recommend flouting conventional wisdom and taking a brood of Biovore and lots of spore mines.

I dunno, I play orks and I found the combination of devourer shots and Barbed Strangler shots to be pretty effective against my horde. (Probably because I wasn't usng 30 strong mobs, but it would still have been a very tough fight.)

Maybe the dakkafexes would be a liability against my trukk rush, but they seem pretty competent boyz killers.

That said I don't reccomend a nidzilla army as a new edition is on the cards which may make them less good, and stuff like leaping hourmies and CC warriors are better versus orks anyway.

Ah, the good ol' days of the 5" poison mine...

Nurglitch wrote:Don't take the "Dakkafex". They're too slow and short-ranged to be of any real use, which is why they're cheap. Devastators, Broadsides, Chosen, Heavy Weapon Squads, Havocs, Crisis Suits, and basically anything toting a few anti-tank weapons will vapourize them in short order, and if you maximize on the number of Carnifexes then you're losing the masses of Termagants and Hormugaunts that do the real work in the army.

Your friend's snipers will use them for target practice, and if he takes Lootas or any other high-power Ork weapons that outrange Devourers then you'll basically be playing from a handicap. If you're going to play Orks lots then I recommend flouting conventional wisdom and taking a brood of Biovore and lots of spore mines.

I almost want to say you're joking mainly because I have a hard time believing that you actually believe the advice you're giving. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions (of course) and your own mileage varies with any unit but the Dakkafex is hands-down one of the better units in the game for its points cost. Sure there are units that can kill one fairly easily, but there a whole lot of units that can't deal with it and its firepower once in range is pretty potent (especially when an army takes several of them).

In fact, the Dakkafex is what makes the Godzilla army so brutal to face. Remove the ability to take x2 TL Devourers from elite fexes and you really pull much of the teeth from the army type.



But back to the original question:

If you know you're going to be playing Orks the best configuration for a Carnifex would indeed be a Dakkafex. The only caveat would be that you should definitely plump out for the 2+ armor save as Orks have a distinct lack of AP2 weapons and upgrading the armor save this way really makes the Carnifex a burden for them to take on.

Good luck!

I personally forego the DakkaFex for a pair of Sniperfexes (BS, VC, ES, FH) as my 2 heavies (they come in at a very affordable 149 or so). They'll do fine against most Ork armies. As for the Elite choices being craptastic, I think my Dev Warriors actually do quite a bit for for what they accomplish. Of course my current list is bristling w/ Devs so that makes Dev Warriors even better (the extra Dev shots and the expanded Synapse is very handy) . Fielding only a pair of Carnies and a pair of walking Tyrants seems to strike locals as being a little more sporting than the typical 'Nidzilla list. YMMV.

In 5th ED, would an Elite Fex with Barb Strangler + Talons (total 113pts) be any good ?

It wont be as useful vs light infantry, but you get double the range, str8 and the ability to take out med vehicles, plus the fact that it doesnt need to roll to hit.

Any thoughts?

5th Ed fexes running into combat with Orks (and anyone else) will be entertaining to watch at the very least. I'll be trying out some with Crushing Claws.

But right now, I totally agree with yakface's above advice.

Barbed stranglers won't be the 'oooh I hope this hits' like they are now (in 5th they'll be superior). Yes, jhneoh that configuration works just fine. It's got the mercy of being different. Don't forget the little template, will also have a use in 5th edition. Add in 6 of them and 2xgaunts 4xstealers....and you have a very interesting list. Still going to have a hard time actually killing AV14. My experience says ignore 'em and pummel everything else. Having 9 templates that auto-hit is indeed 'nice'. Or annoying, depending which side you are playing. lol

Now if only the TL Barbed let you re-roll to wound and armor pen...oh right, hush my mouth.

Orks will kill your Carnifexes in CC. Don't try it. Not in 4th, and not in 5th. Even Trukk squads can crush a pair if you aren't careful.

jhneoh wrote:In 5th ED, would an Elite Fex with Barb Strangler + Talons (total 113pts) be any good ?

It wont be as useful vs light infantry, but you get double the range, str8 and the ability to take out med vehicles, plus the fact that it doesnt need to roll to hit.

Any thoughts?

The Blasterfex, one large blast per turn instead of a rain of eight shots. Yes, I think this build will compete with the Dakkafex in 5th edition. Each have their uses.

Currently go with Gunfex. The venom cannon is useful as most if not all ork vehicles are open topped. Av14 battlewagons in particular are optimum targets for the venom cannon. The gunfex also escapes the 5th edition nerf when facing orks, and with the 50% outright miss with the barbed strangler gone it will be better.

Yeah it'll be replaced by a 2/3rds outright miss, hurray scatter=P

Scatter isn't an "outright miss" most of the time you will still do plenty of damage with that template. In the 4th Ed system - if you missed then nothing happened at all. This is better.