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I was at an event at Origins this year and my friend was playing his spcae marines against dark eldar. I was not playing. My friend tried to shoot at a DE raider with some devastaters standing on a level 1 hill. There was a downed raider in between the squad and the mobile raider. The DE player was adamant that there was no line of sight and the marines could not shoot (I'm not questioning whether this is correct). My buddy conceded the point and moved on with his turn. It was the third game and both players were pretty beat.

On DE's turn, he proposed to shoot at my buddy's land speeder with some warriors on a level 1 hill. There was a downed raider in between the squad and the land speeder. He tried a "hurry up snap" with the whole propose, roll to hit, roll ap, roll results. My friend was actually removing the speeder before I pointed out that DE had refused exactly the same situation on my friend's turn. DE gives me a dirty look and tells me they've got it in hand, but is forced to concede because the situations are IDENTICAL.

My question is this. If a person watching a tournament game witnesses cheating or shennanigans, what is the acceptable course of action? Point it out to the players? Get a judge and point it out to him?

I'm not talking about telling anyone what they could do or should do. I mean watching an obviously experienced player misquote his models toughness or armor save, roll too many dice, move models 7 plus inches, or fail to resolve assaults or shooting properly.

I'm willing to give the other guy the benenfit of the doubt if he appears inexperienced. But I've seen a lot of players at multiple events like the aforementiond DE player. These are the guys that win at least in part by railroading other players on the rules and fast playing or slow playing when it serves them. The judges, often enough don't even play the game or are too delicate to confront pushy players.

I agree that it happens, and it's awful, but here's the real crack-up...........Maybe it will effect thier Sportsmanship award?
(Choke/cough/splutter)

But if I personally witnessed it, I suppose I would quietly walk away and GET a judge, tell them what you saw- (away from said table-quickly so as it's not too late! )

The first course of action could be to find the tournament organizer. but like you said they dont always know whats going on

you did an honest thing... i cant find fault in it i have been to alot of tournaments where questions were bounced back and forth between tables on rules questions so.. i dont see the problem with you pointing it out.. but since he was your friend it could be seen as interferring.. but only from someone who was cheating to begin with

simliar thing happened to a friend of mine he had penitent engines walking behind rhinos.. by raw they cant be shot at until the rhino is dead and they move around it.. the "player" from another table said yes you can .. and the pe got shot then in another game a dread walking behind the same rhino went to shoot at the "players" speeders oh you cant see them to shoot.... hes lucky he didnt lose his head in that tourney!!!!

akira5665 wrote:I agree that it happens, and it's awful, but here's the real crack-up...........Maybe it will effect thier Sportsmanship award?
(Choke/cough/splutter)

Heh heh...I hear ya Akira.

Here's another question. If both players are trying to resolve a rules question or weapon strength or whatever, is it illegal or bad form for a bystander to look it up for them? I'm assuming of course both players will want to see it in print.

not at all...thats just being a nice person

If you have to cheat to win....you've already lost.

I'll frequently let people get away with "little" things if it may start an arguement. Normally, if a player is grasping at straws in order to gain the upper hand in a game, I'll have little trouble keeping the advantage.

That being said, when someone gets called on something like what you posted above, they have little right to be annoyed.

I tell people near my games to shut up. There is no 'choir' in 40K.

Then again, there is my unremitting honesty in all things.

I can't tell you how many times I've watched other players cheat or not know the rules...and I can't say anything because I don't want to face them later, having called them on something.

They already wipe my sportsmanship as low as they can for kicking their arse, I'd get zeros if I called out all the BS I see. lol

Heh.

I see the glossary doesn't include the other meaning of 'BS'. I find that funny.



I often don't like people pointing things out during a game, but if someone is cheating and I haven't noticed, then by all means, sound off. I'd really like to see someone call my sportsmanship into question because they cheated and someone other than me pointed it out.

BYE

I'd like to point out that if the Penitent engine is taller than a rhino, there is no reason why it couldn't be shot at, by RAW.

H.B.M.C. wrote:I often don't like people pointing things out during a game, but if someone is cheating and I haven't noticed, then by all means, sound off. I'd really like to see someone call my sportsmanship into question because they cheated and someone other than me pointed it out.

BYE

Well sadly, this will of course happen because the same people that mark your sportsmanship down for beating their army are just as likely to mark you down for calling them a cheat.

It is just the mindset of a cheat.

H.B.M.C. wrote:I see the glossary doesn't include the other meaning of 'BS'. I find that funny.

Yeah. IM HO isn't 'humble' it's "honest". So now I have to type it out. lol

whitedragon wrote:I'd like to point out that if the Penitent engine is taller than a rhino, there is no reason why it couldn't be shot at, by RAW.

Youd be right except for one thing Tanks are all the same size there is no size differentiation between a rhino and a walker they are both i think level three "vehicles" so no you can not shoot them behind a rhino

I dunno...if someone is blatantly cheating they're already the type of person who will also tank your soft scores as much as they can, heck maybe even if they win. So being the person to call them on their cheating from another game isn't likely to affect how they score you if you play them later (maybe you'll get a 0 instead of the 2 they normally give).

At the same time I don't really like it when people butt into rules disputes in the games next to them, even though I have a hell of a time keeping my nose out of other people's games...

Part of the problem with "catching cheaters" was exemplified in this thread...the Penitent engine almost definitely could be shot over the rhino. (page 20, first bullet point "All Vehicles...) The downed skimmers almost definitely didn't block line of sight (yes I understand the point is it should be played the same if they argue it for their favor once). Nothing is worse than someone butting into a game and, well, not actually being correct. So I'd say that the only good way to handle it would be to flag down the organizer or judge or something and mention it.

Then again, the examples here are some of the more-often misunderstood or wrongly played rules. It's one thing to misunderstand area terrain or what a wreck blocks view to, but if someone is doing something ridiculous like moving models 8 inches while the opponent isn't looking or conveniently forgetting his armor save is actually 3+ and not 2+ well...I don't know. I guess if it was being done to me I'd rather someone point it out, but maybe it should be my responsibility to pay attention to my opponent and understand his army.

Krak_kirby
I had an almost identical situation happen at a tourney i was in.

A guy i was playing was trying to treat vehicles and vehicle wrecks as LOS blocing size 3 area terrain. saying that units on a hill who had LOS over the said vehicle could not shoot. so i broke out the rulebook and read him the related rules on page 20 of the BBB.

The very next game he was on the table next to me and tried to pull the very same argument. i was already pretty irritated with the guy because we caught him cheating earlier in the tourney so yes i spoke up.

Rather a person is new to the game, or a vetran we sometimes forget things(even me as the go to guy at our store) so if we see an innocent error we should gently remind people of the error. or in the previous case i almost consider it a duty to speak out when the vetran player is intentionally trying to cheat when they obviously know better.

Thanks for the input folks. I expected a lot more hardline negatives on butting in. I'm generally a big believer in letting a novice take his lumps and discussing the game afterwards. The older I get though, the tougher it is to see decent players with nice armies get flattened by cheaters. This is especially true in an event with prize support or ranking.

The added benefit locally is that cheaters straighten up or get lost if they can't get away with it. Our local gamers are largely a stand up bunch.

I can't stand backseat generals, at least in games between expereinced players, but even I would argue that not only can you butt in when you see cheating, you should. Cheaters are either a) scatterbrained or b) malicious, and either behaviour should be chided (especially those who feign forgetfulness....)

Iv'e been thinking about it, and I think it would be fun to compile a list of our favorite cheaters. I'll start with a few:

Seven Incher: this gentleman apparently gets an extra inch on all moves, assaults, consolidates, and fleets. While a common cheater, he is easily dealt with by asking "where did that unit start? How far can they move? What did you foll for difficult terrain?" enough times to shake his confidence in his clever scheme. Top tip: the madder a player gets when your questioning his moves, the more certain you can be it was intentional all along!

Absent Minded Professor: He forgot to take a morale test, target priority, or his overheat saves. He took Iron Halo saved because he forgot that he didn't buy it. He tries to attack with an IC not in base to base, because "that's how he remembers the rule." While in himself harmless, he can be dangerous when combined with Scribbles.

Scribbles: arrives to a game with a half proxied army and a hand written list on what can only be toilet paper (unused). He'll swear up and down that he did his math properly, but if you have a calculater and a few minutes, double check. At worst, he'll be over a bit because of some wargear. At worst, he never added the points for his two landraiders. Top Tip: if he asks why you're double checking his math, simply say "I haven't played against this codex much, and I can't believe how low your model count is."

Matlock: challenges every rule. Blusters, bloviates, and utters that most annoying of phrases "I read it in a FAQ online." Seemingly never has his codex or rulebooks, let alone this mysterious FAQ. While a worthy foe in normal guise, when combined with Big Dog, he's simply not worth playing.

Big Dog: he's the store owner/local tough guy/ loudest voice in a very small room. He knows the rules back and forth, because he makes them up as he goes along. While his normal complete lack of knowledge means you can at least argue with him and show him that he's wrong, when combined with Matlcok he can be obnoxious. Top Tip: while the Big Dog is a bully, he's still a gamer. Don't back down, and refuse to give him your lunch money.

Fingers: Venturing into the outright bastards of the cheating world, this gentleman will nudge models or terrain, swap positions, add models back to squads, and engage in highly devious sleight of hand.

Anybody else have any?

The Diceman.

He doesn't announce what he's dicing for or what he needs to roll to succeed. He may add extra dice to a dice pool (for example, rolling 13 dice for a volley of 12 shots.) He rolls the dice and announces the results while sweeping them up before you can check. In the worst cases he may even use some kind of biased dice.

In response to the list of cheater traits:

That is exactly why I make sure to tell my opponent what I'm rolling for, do my army list in a spreadsheet and leave it on the table, and quote from the rulebook if challenged.
Admittedly, the last one is often me quoting from the 3ed rulebook, but that's because I'm not used to this edition yet. Grr.

Rle68, please read the following article:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/185970.page#185984

Yes, you most certainly can draw LOS over a vehicle.

As for the initial question, if a rule is actually being broken, I think you have to speak up. Do it politely, not in an accusatory fashion. Bear in mind that it's always possible that YOUR understanding of the rule is incorrect. If there's a judge handy, by all means, get him to go over instead. But the rules need to be played right, and the judges can't be everywhere.

I can't stand "table talk" or kibitzing- other people hanging around the game and talking with the players (for more than a word or two) during the game. Gods help me (because I'm the one who's going to be thrown out if I punch you) if you talk tactics to my opponent during a game.

Thanks for linking that Mannahin, I was just about to!

L2READ!

And type correctly.


There was a game I was watching not long after Apoc came out. One of the fankids at the store wanted to play, but my friend, being the only other person currently at the store with an army, only had 2k. He was nice, and agreed to play an Apoc game at 2k. The game was armored company verses 20+ daemonhosts. (Of which there were two actual daemonhost models on the table)

I didn't stick around to watch at first, but when I came back, the daemonhosts had used some strategy thing to come on from the other board edge, and had rear assaults on every tank. Miraculously more than half had the increased strength power for that turn. And then the kid starts saying he's making strength 10 attacks. Around here was where I pointed out that daemonhosts can have a max of strength 9, and that's if you get that on a d3. My friend demanded they restart the game after that.

Personally, I can't stand self-appointed rules-judges of other-people's games, mostly because they're wrong most of the time. It just makes me want to tear my hair out when someone keeps interrupting my game and then turns out to be wrong.

So, I suggest a simple rule: Don't speak up unless you are dang-sure you are correct, and if you are wrong, don't speak up again. If you butt-in and are incorrect, you lose all butting-in privileges for the rest of the year.

Doctor Thunder wrote:So, I suggest a simple rule: Don't speak up unless you are dang-sure you are correct...

I totally agree, Doc. It's not fun to have someone interrupt you game to point out what you did wrong or to claim you or your opponent is cheating when they aren't aware of the possible house rules you're playing under.

If it's a standard tourney game - I'd get a judge on the spot... but not without making sure I was ironclad positive that there were some shenanigans.

The thread started with a post that outlined a completely unfair and obvious cheat.

Good sportsmanship demands that players point out blatant cheating on other tables the same as if it were their own.

Of course if things are not clear cut, then discretion may be the better part of valour. However it is still possible to say "Excuse me, I think you may have got that slightly wrong" rather than bear down with an full on accusation.

As pointed out in the OP, the player in question enforced a rule on his opponent, then conveniently 'forgot' in the xact same situation on his own turn.

Until the day that each table in a tournament gets its own dedicated judge/referee, it isn't too outlandish for observers to help spot inaccuracies.

Although, as KillKrazy pointed out, the manner in which you intercede makes all the difference..

In one non-tourney game I was watching, a Blood Angels player ( a novice player) moved a Devastator squad 2" closer to the enemy lines. During the shooting phase, he announced that the Devs were firing (IIRC, a ML, Lascannon, HBx2). His opponent, also a tyro, didn't catch it I merely said 'Wow, BA are too cool. I didn't know they could move heavies AND shoot...' That was enough to jar the other player into remembering the rule.

Was it out of line? Its a far cry from blurting out 'HEY YOU CHEATER!!!!!' I think.

I think the OP situation was handled fine. Whether the players got it right or wrong with the LOS, the fact is the same rule should be used from that point on. They agreed to play the raider blocked LOS, which was wrong, but if that is how the first situation was played, then you as an observer should "remind" them that it should be played consistently so the game remains"fair". It's like when dice are cocked. If you are going to roll it over, then roll every one that happens again over. I always tell my opponent that if my dice are not flat on the table, they will be rolled again. I have seen players put dice on cocked dice to see if they fall off. If it's that close that you have to take the time to do that, just pick the die up and reroll it. Back to the point of speaking up if you see cheating, I say fellow gamers have an obligation to speak-up, but if you are going to say anything, you should be prepared to show it in writing. As far as kibitzing and sharing tactics, big no-no!

Doc Thunder, I remember an RTT you and I were in at Games People Play in Orem several years ago where some clown running Iron Warriors tried to cheat you by claiming, IIRC, that your Tyranid monstrous creatures couldn't claim table quarters, even after he had been shown in the rulebook that they could. It looked like there were a bunch of people jumping in on your side on that one, and I'm curious how it finally got resolved. The only thing I really remember about it was that the Iron Warrior guy had impressed everyone at the tournament with what an ass he was, and I believe he chipmunked you on sportsmanship.

I suppose I will just echo most of what has been said: if you are going to correct someone, make sure that you are right. Damn sure.

Relapse wrote: Doc Thunder, I remember an RTT you and I were in at Games People Play in Orem several years ago where some clown running Iron Warriors tried to cheat you by claiming, IIRC, that your Tyranid monstrous creatures couldn't claim table quarters, even after he had been shown in the rulebook that they could. It looked like there were a bunch of people jumping in on your side on that one, and I'm curious how it finally got resolved. The only thing I really remember about it was that the Iron Warrior guy had impressed everyone at the tournament with what an ass he was, and I believe he chipmunked you on sportsmanship.

Yeah, we had about a dozen people surrounding the table giving their opinions. It was like hyenas on a corpse. While they argued I just quietly cracked open my rulebook and showed them the rule, and then it was resolved. (They can)
I'm sure he gave me a bad score, but I'm not worried, that's just how it is sometimes.

I found Polonius' comments hilarious.

Now here's a few others that I love:

The Good-Natured Pr...

He tries to smile his way through EVERYTHING he does, and attempts to make me take personal morale checks to save against his charm. Attempts to ingratiate himself repeatedly. Oh too bad! Oh almost had it. If only I could let you do that again.

The Zipper. Happens to be most often an Eldar player with multiple Falcons/Fire Prisms. Can also be an Ork player with Stikkbombas. Likes to run his tanks in a figure eight through an enemy army, especially if they are things like Necrons, Marines, or mass IG--something his pathetic army cannot hope to beat without spinning wheelies with his tank shocks.

Mr. Primed. Brings a overpowered army he's collected from 5 different sources, explains how it's not all his so he couldn't possibly paint it, and the insinuation is you should feel pity and contribute to his continued gaming. Much like when the Sheriff's auxiliary, PETA, or <insert dreadful cause here> calls you, hang up immediately.

The Choir. The gaggle of idiots some people bring to tournaments, be they children/wife/husband/aunt/horde of loser friends....all watching everything I do and putting mouth to ear when they think I've done something wrong. Put the Choir away, and don't try to berate your way to a victory.

Wily females. Sorry sister, I'm married and irregardless of how many tattoos/piercings/goth/cleavage you show me, I'm NOT interested and I AM going to crush your army, even with your 400 pound gorilla of a husband/slack jawed freak/fool staring at me the entire game. I fear not you nor your baggage.

The Post-Gamer. Complains about your army to everyone in earshot, tells the judge how horrible it was to play you, WILL try to get the score changed in their favor with massive whining once you leave the gaming hall. Very hard to catch.

All attemps at social engineering are in my honest opinion, nothing more than trying to cheat and it's never worked once.