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So with the new Defilers, is there any way to load them out to make them worthwhile? The loss of the Mutated Hull option from the old codex makes them pretty flimsy.

I'm tempted to do the 2 extra CCW, just because I've only ever once fired anything other than the Battle Cannon - all the Reaper/Flamer/TwLC seem superfluous. it seems expensive to take one for the TwLC when the only advantage over a regular TwLC Dread is that it won't shoot your own stuff.

With the 2 extra CCWs, it gets 5 attacks that are instakill/powerweapon equivalents. I could see directing one into some powerfist-less unit (or even one of those annoying twin-LC characters) to take out 2-3 models per player turn (so 4-6 per round, on average). Sure, it's only WS3, but that doesn't really matter - it's hitting on 4+ just like pretty much anything else. So what if it gets hit on a 3+ or a 4+? A PF will kill it regardless, as any PF-wielding model will have 2+ attacks and hit it on average once per round. Units without a PF-equivalent basically can't hurt it at all.

The only thing is, I'd generally rather fire the Battle Cannon than fleet, and firing on the move tends to miss. A lot. So I'm thinking it's just a static BattleCannon platform unless it happens to get a Weapon Destroyed result before getting popped. If that happens, it can start legging it into combat, I suppose.

Has anyone used one of the new Defilers successfully, and how did you load it out?

Without indirect fire, or mutated hull....they're not very good.

They're the first thing to get knocked out in a Chaos army.

You fleet when the BC gets taken out but the Defiler lives.

Then it dies. Or doesn't and you get into CC, kill a marine, and get PF'ed to death.

I miss indirect fire. With the old codex I could sit my defiler out of LOS and shoot stuff. I could take out entire squads, and even if I missed, it drove my opponents nuts.

Now I have 2 Defilers thanks to the Chaos Army deal, and both get blow up in almost every game because they HAVE to have LOS. AV 12 is just too easy to kill.

IMHO, the 2 extra CCW plus Battle Cannon is the only loadout I'd take now, so if the BC gets blown off I can at least get into CC and maybe kill stuff (or get PF'ed to death like Stelek said). I've over ever used the autocannon and flamer once, and was underwhelmed by it.

Converting it into a Vindicator might be a good option.

I'm converting a defiler into a DA dreadnought (since I hate the defiler model as is and hate all GW dreads).

Well, until the wife busted it and the cat chewed on a piece. SIGH. I'll get to it soon, and probably even post it into the WIP area of dakka. Or not, given the camera seems to have suffered a fate worse than death. Ah well, camera was a pos anyways. lol

I think it has to be used differently, when i use mine, it's normally not the only 'big thing' on the board, the trick is to start it out of site, or in cover for that 4+ to glance if you go second. Then either walk to a spot and take pot shots with the battle cannon, or fleet + smoke then get into HtH. I find the heavy flamer is a very usefull option in this case

Problem is, most Defilers are bigger than the terrain they try to hide behind. Especially at tournaments.

Before the kit came out there were a lot of really creative defiler kitbashes, most of which seemed more like the size of a rhino or predator. I personally dislike the defiler model. Would it piss anyone here off to play against someone with a scratchbuilt defiler that was a lot smaller than the official model?

What's 'lots smaller'?
You could get into trouble at tournaments, if it's too small.

I've seen a couple defilers that were "lowridered." Take the model and flatten out the legs, so the model is as tall as a rhino. The legs cannot be targeted as they are not part of the hull (Pg 6 BGB) so you are prett hard to target.

I never "lowridered" either of my defilers because I had glued the legs in place during assembly in the standard position.

Darrian

Don't see how the 'lowridering' makes sense at all. But maybe it's just me reading pg 6 in the BGB and not finding anything about shooting only at somthing 'part of the hull'...though it's nice that GW wants 'to ensure that you can recognise the difference [by taking] a quick look at [the specific] section.'
Hello? I actually can tell the difference between a land raider and an imperial guardsman and not try driving my guardsmen 12" a turn and shooting their main weapon. Thank you!

But I really would love to know where that 'aim at the hull' thing is written...enlighten me please.

Lowridering makes a defiler smaller, thus easier to hide behind terrain and, more importantly easier to hide behind other vehicles (per page 20 BGB LOS rules).

Page 21 states that "Line of sight must be traced to the body of the target model."

Happy to enlighten.

Darrian

Dead Horse wrote:Before the kit came out there were a lot of really creative defiler kitbashes, most of which seemed more like the size of a rhino or predator. I personally dislike the defiler model. Would it piss anyone here off to play against someone with a scratchbuilt defiler that was a lot smaller than the official model?

The flowering of creativity in defiler design before the real kit came out was really something, wasn't it?

For the hell of it I converted an old furioso dreadnought into a defiler, and since it's so much smaller than a real defiler I based it on a CD and said if you could see the base you could shoot it. But even then that's quite a bit smaller than the actual model, particularly height-wise. I wasn't shooting for any in-game advantage, so I was happy to be lenient with opponents shooting it

- Salvage

Partly enlighten, at least now I know it wasn't me just not finding that line on pg. 6.
Body =/= hull, do you agree? Also the context isn't about vehicles, as they don't have any toes.

If a good portion of the vihicle I'd like too shoot is visible, I'll do so. Eg one half of the defilers legs.
And it might not be that important with C:CSM 4.0 anyway, because Defilers lost indirect fire and if I can't see them due to modelling exploitation, they can't see my troops.

vogelfrei wrote:... because Defilers lost indirect fire and if I can't see them due to modelling exploitation, they can't see my troops.

LOS for the defiler's cannon is measured from the end of the gun to your troops.
LOS for your troops to the defiler is measured to its "body."

Now you just need to argue it out where the defiler's body is (hint: not necessarily the end of the battle cannon ) ...

- Salvage

Yeah, right...now - would you count your legs towards 'parts of your body'?

Who said anything about parts of a body, Vog?

But I do let opponents shoot my defiler in the leg, partially because if you count the legs as "body" its fairly easy to get a 4+ obscurred target roll by sticking limbs into cover and the rest towering over. Isn't the same as blocked LOS, but defiler really shouldn't live too long, frankly.

- Salvage

I actually use two defilers in my chaos army. They normally survive well into the game. I think the issue with them is like any other dreadnought/monstrous creature/vehicle, you have to have multiple of them. I have two, two Daemon princes, and a Greater Demon. I often find that the defilers are not people's top priority which gives them time to walk up or lob some battle cannon shots on to people.

Oh, and 2 close combat weapons. More squishy.

Cogito

CCW.

150 pts is a bit much. I would use them to convert Vindis and Heavy Bolter Dreads.

I thought about taking multiples once but that's 2 obliterators for one defiler and that is tough to justify.

I've used them several times with 2 CCW. I have trouble justifying it as a stationary Ordnance platform (Possessed Vindicator tends to do this better).

Instead I like to trot them forward alongside/close behind the rhinos, firing if there is an appetizing target and fleeting/smoking if there isn't one.

In combat, It does alright. You can usually avoid the Pfist on the turn you charge in, and you'll always win combat unless you are popped.

The problem with the Defiler, to my mind, is not that it is bad, its that Obliterators are so good.

Lemartes wrote:I thought about taking multiples once but that's 2 obliterators for one defiler and that is tough to justify.

40kenthusiast wrote:The problem with the Defiler, to my mind, is not that it is bad, its that Obliterators are so good.

Or you could use their pieces to convert Obliterators.

Or you could use their pieces to convert pretty much anything, really.

It's not unreasonable to take 2/3 Heavy Support and one of those Scorpion things in 2000 if you want to kit bash.

Darrian13 wrote:I've seen a couple defilers that were "lowridered." Take the model and flatten out the legs, so the model is as tall as a rhino. The legs cannot be targeted as they are not part of the hull (Pg 6 BGB) so you are prett hard to target.

I never "lowridered" either of my defilers because I had glued the legs in place during assembly in the standard position.

Darrian

You need to get that agreed to before the game as there is a strong coutnerargument that the legs also constitute the main body/hull (I'm not getting into the actual arguments they can be searched for). Suffice to say its an ex ellent way to srart a rules argument if in the middle of a game.

Personally I would not approve of a conversion that reduced your size significantly. Conversions should be about conversions and not as a game mechanic (which this appears to be). Having said that if just for coolness I'd be ok with it (or a non-tourney game if minimally new style rhino sized). And I agree some of those original conversions were excellent.

The new defilers are an interesting unit, one of the chaos units that has part of its value in its ranged attacks, and part of its value in its melee abilities. I can see it as part of a static gun line, holding its position and firing the battlecannon until the enemy reaches your lines, then countercharging, but its likely the defiler will be blown to pieces before the enemy reaches you, or that the enemy assault units will have plenty of rending and powerfists, making your defiler a big target. The other option is to walk up a flank firing off battlecannon rounds (which aren’t that much less effective when moving), eventually plonking onto an objective or picking out an enemy flanking unit that can’t hurt your defiler.

Unfortunately, at its points cost and AV it is a bit of a target, so you either have to back yourself to use terrain to keep it away from enemy AT weapons while still having a target each turn, or present the enemy with greater target priorities.

Either way, two CCW weapons are the way to go.

Maybe. Having heavy flamers when facing Tyranids would help against all those rending gribblies, and the battlecannon is best used against units that it shouldn't risk taking on in an assault.

Not to mention how the effectiveness of vehicles increases as the number of vehicles increases and thus diffuses the effect of AT weapons.

Of course it's always something to mention that you don't necessarily have to expose your Defiler to the enemy in order to make it useful. Keep it hidden and working its way along a flank and you can make a threat to anything that might need to move through there since it can rush out and pounce of it thanks to fleet.

Having multiple vehicles in the army is a key point. If one or two Defilers is all the armor you have, then your opponent will train every anti armor weapon he has to stop those to models.

I've only played against one Defiler since the new codex. My opponent only had one Rhino as the other vehicle. Turn 1, no more Defiler, especially as it is only armor 12 now (no mutated hull)

Hey, Since Defilers are S6 but have Dreadnought CC weapons, we use S10 instead. But the codex says you can get additional CC weapons for the Defiler, not additional Dreadnought CC weapons.

So If you replace the heavy flamer or the reaper for a CC weapon, do you say the extra attack is S6 or S10 since it is not a DCC?

Teh_K42 wrote:So If you replace the heavy flamer or the reaper for a CC weapon, do you say the extra attack is S6 or S10 since it is not a DCC?

You can only attack with one type of close combat attack per turn. All additional CCW's do is give you +1A, so if you're using your DCCW's and get +1A from a CCW, all your attacks are still with the DCCW. It's no different to a guy with a Power Fist and a CCW. He gets +1A thanks to the CCW, but all his attacks are with the Power Weapon.

Not that I'd actually perscribe to the theory that a Defiler's third and fourth arms are mere CCW's, but that's neither here nor there.

BYE

I See.

Legs are part of the body. I’ve always allowed drawing LOS to mine. I’ve seen it debated online but never in real life. With the normal model it would make a HUGE difference in one’s ability to hide the thing. This is (as jfrazell noted) a great argument-starter if you try it mid game, and even advocating it before the game will probably not get the warmest reception.

I agree that a conversion designed to be a significantly smaller target is asking for sneers and disapproval. You can do it, but it won’t make you friends.

The main way I can see to make Defilers work now is to keep them as cheap as possible, and field other, hard targets as well. Working one up the flank might not be a bad idea either.

Extra CCW are probably good choices. The Reaper isn't particularly impressive, and the heavy flamer even less so on a unit which walks 6" per turn. Tyranids will ignore it, or Fleet past it's range and assault with gaunts to tie up the Defiler without letting it shoot. Extra CCW at least allow the thing to thin out enemy numbers faster and stand a better chance in HtH. Enemy Fists still probably spell doom, but if the Defiler can cripple the unit it may not be a bad trade.