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Prior to 4th edition, mauleed pattern lists (60/40 shooty/assault, min/max las/plas tac squads) seemed to be the rule. Does it still hold true considering current objective based missions?

This will be an evolving thread (hopefully). So to start out, let's hear what the general thoughts are regarding SM units and their inclusion in a GT list. I know that units cannot stand alone and their use of combined arms depends on the dynamics of the list. So I will start out with a standard list that includes some of the more popular choices and let's disect and modify it for this season to see if there is a general consensus as to "must have" units. Keep the wars out of it and let's not deteriorate into a pissing contest. There are many ways to build a list, especially SM, so let's keep it civil. Thanks!

Guidlines:
ultramarines vanilla style (for universal simplicity/popularity)
characters can be used
no drop pods (this is a style all it's own)
1750 points

This will be a starting point and is not to be considered the "correct" template. But if you are going to replace a unit, tell us why.

Ultramarines SM @1750 for 2008 GT season

Chaplain Reclusiarch @112 points
~jump pack, bolt pistol, frag, teleport homer

Assault Squad 1x6 @172 points
~plasma pistol x2, Veteran Sarge w/ pf

Tactical Squad 1x10 @248 points
~meltagun, heavy bolter, Veteran Sarge w/ pf
RHINO w/ smoke

Tactical Squad 1x6 @174 points
~flamer, heavy bolter
RAZORBACK w/ smoke

Tactical Squad 1x6 @174 points
~flamer, heavy bolter
RAZORBACK w/ smoke

Tactical Squad 1x6 @115 points
~lascannon, plasmagun

Tactical Squad 1x6 @115 points
~lascannon, plasmagun

Tactical Squad 1x6 @115 points
~lascannon, plasmagun

Devastator Squad 1x6 ~150 points
~missile launcher x3

Devastator Squad 1x6 ~150 points
~missile launcher x3

Predator Destructor @115 points
~heavy bolter sponsons, dozer blade

Dreadnought @110 points
~assault cannon, extra armor

Basic strategy for this list is to use the devs and las/plas tacs as an anti-tank firebase. The RHINO and RAZORBACKS will secure objectives supported by the pred and dred. The chappy & assault squad can be used as either counter charge for the firebase or support behind the rhino/razorbacks.

The pred and dread can be replaced by a terminator squad 1x5 w/ assault cannon, chainfist @225 points to utilize deepstriking ability and/or can provide similar support walikng behind the rhino/razorbacks.

One of the razorback squads should be replaced with 2 tornado land speeders. The assault cannons are the best bang for the SM buck and the mobility of the speeder creates more effective firepower and objective grabbing ability.

Your list sucks arse and my 5 year old daughter could create a better one while doped on cough medicine.

This would be an example of a . You get the idea.

This is close - in the right direction.


Far too many static elements.

The skeleton of an SM shootie army for me would be:


Master with lightning claws, terminator armor, 4 man squad furious charge and 2 assault cannons @ around 340 or some odd

4 x 6 man las/plas @ around 460

3 x hb/ac predator w/extra armor @ around 330

1 x 8 assault marines with 2 flamers, vet with pf @ around 220ish i think

(Base 1350 or something)

You can mix it up a little in various ways, like depending on what traits you get. And then add 500pts to taste.

More terminators, more assault marines, two tornado speeders, all viable options.

You need a whirlwind.

Assault marines with flamers will be the anti-ork that you need.

I'd love to see how a list acclaimed to be perfect actually did in a tournament when actually used by a player. Or do perfect lists play themselves?

Nurglitch. The 'mauleed pattern' lists get rocked because frankly they suck.

No offense to mauleed or anybody else, but I've faced the list 4 times at GT's and 3 times at RTT's.

Massacres x3 GT, x3 RTT.
Minor vic x1 GT (*cough* escalation)

This army has no real assault, and why you'd bother bringing a dread and razorbacks is beyond me.

Not trying to flame you, but if I had a 5 year old daughter this would be her safe newbie army.

An armless hooker gets me more excited than this list does. :(

Stelek, this isn't "Mauleed pattern". His lists haven't had Razorbacks since 4th edition came out.

Dorn, I think it's a fun list. I think Longshot's template comes a little closer to a "perfect" list, as mobility is key.

Considering that the Standard Mauleed pattern marine list looks almost nothing like this with the exception of the 3 Las/Plas Squads.

There are to many points wrapped up in the wrong places. For example those Razorbacks while might be nice on paper will do nothing but give your opponent 75 VPs each. Second The Dev Squads should be 8 man with 4 missiles or Heavy Bolters. If you are going to take the Devs you might as well get more boddies and guns. Also the Dread should be a Ven with a Heavy Flamer and Tank Hunter.

Also for a static Army like this a chaplain is the last choice that is normaly used. A Master with a Jump Pack and Twin Lightning Claws is a solid choice. Second an Epistolari w/ Fear and Fury is the second option. Having the Hood will go along way with the amount of Lash Princes/Sorcerers and Eldar Farsears that will be on the table this comming season.

Someone called it 'mauleed' pattern, not me.

Easy meat back then.

I'm glad the 'maulseed' pattern lists don't look like this army list.

I'm going to agree that Razorbacks and Rhinos aren't the best tool for the task you've given them, ie mobile objective taking. I think landspeeders (that hide or snipe until turn 6) and additional assault squads are better units for that purpose.

I like longshot's take, but there could be a little more flexibility with the heavy support. 3 pred destructors can be good, but so can 3xDev, 3x Vindi, or 3x Whirlie. But part of the strength in the heavy support is spamming the same sort of target at your opponent. I wouldn't sub in 1xDev, or 1xWW with 2 AV13 tanks, because then your Preds just go boom.

3x Devs are probably going to be your most resilient and most deadly (since they can't be shaken and then ignored), but obviously lack mobility. Those guys combined with 1 or 2 assault squads and a landspeeder would probably work pretty well.

A solo dread probably isn't ideal. But I can see it working if you give him a heavy flamer and a drop pod. He's a 150 points, can usually get his points back by flaming something with a 4+ save in cover and if he survives the next turn of shooting, getting in to assault and tying up units.

Before any more time is wasted, this list is not Mauleed pattern nor did I claim it to be. I just asked if that style was still competetive. Nor did I claim that this list is the perfect list. I included some units for their popularity more than their effectiveness. I did type all that, but maybe in my head it was clearer.

Anyways, the point is to take something out, like the solo dread and razorbacks, and replace them with another unit(s), preferably not exceeding the points value of the replaced units, otherwise, it is impossible to keep it GT legal.

Nurglitch. The 'mauleed pattern' lists get rocked because frankly they suck.

No offense to mauleed or anybody else, but I've faced the list 4 times at GT's and 3 times at RTT's.

Massacres x3 GT, x3 RTT.
Minor vic x1 GT (*cough* escalation)

This army has no real assault, and why you'd bother bringing a dread and razorbacks is beyond me.

Not trying to flame you, but if I had a 5 year old daughter this would be her safe newbie army.

An armless hooker gets me more excited than this list does. :(

Stelek, that is exactly the type of post I am absolutely NOT looking for. I even took the time to post an example of that kind of feedback, and you copied it almost word for word. That tells me one of three things.
You are incapable of giving feedback in a civil, constructive way.
You need to pump up your ego by bashing others.
You are a classic troll looking to derail the post into a pissing contest.
I am not interested in any of those so please, post something helpful or step off. It's that simple. Thanks.

Longshot, this is the kind of direction I evisioned the post going. Thanks.

One question, though. Aside from the devs, the original list is mobile and has many similar units to your skeleton. Are you frowning on just the devs or the rhino/razor squads as well?

The rhino/razor squads are a waste if one is trying to stay true to Ed's template. The razorback is definately a waste as if one is purchasing it for mobility, then it is an overpriced droppod. If one is purchasing it for a gun, then it is an overpriced gun that can be silenced with a glancing 1 and is not as resiliant as a squad. Lastly, it cannot contest/claim/score.

At the moment, Ed's template is still a solid choice. There is maximum benefit for output per points spent from the 115s and devs. The HtH and mobility aspect provides enough back up for the 115s. Lastly, even the static shooty components of the build can move to contest/secure objectives on turns 5-6.

Right now, for shooty SM effectiveness, Ed's template is solid. Don't forget the terminators with 2x assault cannons with the FotD/FoA Librarian...

I am not a fortune teller, and I don't work for GW, but I imagine a new "vanilla" Marine codex will come out sometime shortly after 5th ed - and more than likely the 6-man las/plas squad will be history, because they will introduce the "combat squads"(?) rule where you can only have 5 or 10 in a squad, and if you have 10 you can split them.

So if you're going to get mileage out of this sort of list it will have to be before then. Having said that, if I were to design a "perfect" marine list that looks basically like the OP I'd go for (This is more-or-less off the top of my head):

Epistolary: Fear, Fury, Jump Pack, Hood, Force Weapon: 159

4x 6 Las/Plas with PF Serg: 145 each

2x Tornado Landspeeder (seperate squadrons): 80 each

1x 5 Assault Marines with PF Serg: 140

1x 5 Terminators with 2x Assault Cannon: 240

2x 6 man Dev squad with 4x Heavy Bolter: 150 each

1x 6 man Dev squad with 4x Missile Launcher: 170

Comes to 1749.

Viperion

Well you've figured out how to call names, not actually build lists.

Don't ask for people to be truthful, then call names when they are.

None of the lists shown in this thread are tournament worthy.

Compiled work in progress using Longshots skeleton and some suggestions thusfar. Remember, if you make a suggestion to swap out a unit, keep the points even and tell us why. Thanks.

The Perfect Space Marine GT list @1750 points

Tactical 4x6 w/ lascannon, plasmagun, bolters @ 115 points each

Assault 1x8 w/ flamers x2 & Veteran w/ powerfist @218 points

Commander Master w/ jump pack, pair of lightning claws, iron halo, terminator honors @165 points

Librarian Epistolary w/ terminator armor, FotA, FoD @164 points
Terminator Command 1x4 w/ assault cannon x2 @200 points

Predator Destructor x3 w/ heavy bolter sponsons, searchlights @111 points each

Land Speeder Tornado x2 @160 points each
Land Speeder w/ heavy bolter @50 points

I think there will be two camps on the heavy support units, so I would like to focus on that for now. The preds versus devs.
Predator Destructors are excellent mobile anti-horde/light armor choices. In this particular list, their main disadvantage will be the lack of supporting armor for the opponents guns. Hiding them first turn will be mandatory, which is not a bad thing and should be done anyway. I am a treadhead by nature, so I like the preds, but I think in this list the devs would be better. However, that means more points and some other units will have to be taken out to accommodate for the increased cost. So my question is, based on this first modification, can we live with the preds in this version, or do we go with 3 devs (2 with heavy bolter, 1 with missile launcher).

Dev 2x6 w/ heavy bolter x4 @150 points each (300 points total)
Dev 1x6 w/ missile launcher x4 @170 points
Grand total of 470 points versus 333 points for the preds (difference of 137 points).

Stelek wrote:Well you've figured out how to call names, not actually build lists.

Don't ask for people to be truthful, then call names when they are.

None of the lists shown in this thread are tournament worthy.

Look, guy. I'm not interested in whatever it is you are trying to offer here if this is all you are capable of. I absolutely did not ask for list bashing, put downs, and chest beating.
So far this is all you have offered despite me taking the time to actually prevent it. I am asking for feedback on how to build a solid SM for GT play. So I will repeat it to you, Stelek, if you don't have anything positive to add, don't go away mad, just go away. But before you do, I am VERY interested in what your version looks like. If you include one unit that is similar to the ones in the original list, I expect an apology to come with it. If not, please follow common courtesy in any future posts to this thread. Thanks.

Sorry I didn't really justify anything did I?

As was mentioned above, the Preds will probably get a shot or two off each and then will spend the rest of the game stunned/destroyed, in all likelihood. With the Dev squads they are a lot more survivable, can claim and defend nearby objectives, and will keep firing until the whole unit is destroyed. They are more points but I think the points difference is more than made up for by the increased survivability and versatility 6 guys vs one tank gets you.

Of course if you do want to take tanks then you're right about taking as many as possible. Having 2 armoured vehicles in the list total only means they last even less time, so if you do take Predators I think you'd be justified in taking Rhinos and Razorbacks as well, to have some mobile cover and give the enemy AT plenty of targets.

Overall I just think 18 guys (with 8 HB's and 4 ML's) are a better investment than 3 tanks.

Viperion

=========================

Stop with the personal attacks already.

=========================

All marine lists look similar, sadly. Ok the BA, RW, and DW lists can and do look completely unique.

If I wanted a unique marine army, I'd run this:

1750 Pts - Ultramarines Roster

1 Chief Librarian Tigurius @ 165 Pts
Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Bolt Pistol; Rod of Tigurius; Hood of Hellfire; Fear of the Darkness; Fury of the Ancients; Might of Heroes; Storm of the Emperor's Wrath; Veil of Time; Vortex of Doom
1 Hood of Hellfire @ [0] Pts

4 Veteran Squad @ 105 Pts
Bolter (x3); Lascannon (x1); Tank Hunters
1 Sergeant @ [18] Pts
Bolter; Tank Hunters

4 Veteran Squad @ 105 Pts
Bolter (x3); Lascannon (x1); Tank Hunters
1 Sergeant @ [18] Pts
Bolter; Tank Hunters

4 Veteran Squad @ 105 Pts
Bolter (x3); Lascannon (x1); Tank Hunters
1 Sergeant @ [18] Pts
Bolter; Tank Hunters

7 Scout Squad @ 132 Pts
Bolt Pistol & CCW (x7)
1 Sergeant @ [41] Pts
Bolt Pistol (x1); Power Fist (x1); Terminator Honors

7 Scout Squad @ 132 Pts
Bolt Pistol & CCW (x7)
1 Sergeant @ [41] Pts
Bolt Pistol (x1); Power Fist (x1); Terminator Honors

4 Scout Squad @ 75 Pts
Bolter (x3); Missile Launcher (x1)
1 Sergeant @ [13] Pts
Bolt Pistol & CCW

4 Scout Squad @ 75 Pts
Bolter (x3); Missile Launcher (x1)
1 Sergeant @ [13] Pts
Bolt Pistol & CCW

4 Scout Squad @ 75 Pts
Bolter (x3); Missile Launcher (x1)
1 Sergeant @ [13] Pts
Bolt Pistol & CCW

1 Land Speeder Squadron @ 80 Pts
Heavy Bolter (x1); Assault Cannon (x1)

1 Land Speeder Squadron @ 80 Pts
Heavy Bolter (x1); Assault Cannon (x1)

2 Bike Squadron @ 122 Pts
Frag Grenades; Melta Bombs; Twin Linked Bolter (x2); Meltagun (x2)
1 Sergeant @ [34] Pts
Frag Grenades; Melta Bombs; Twin Linked Bolter

6 Devastator Squad @ 165 Pts
Bolter (x2); Heavy Bolter (x4)
1 Sergeant @ [15] Pts
Bolter

6 Devastator Squad @ 165 Pts
Bolter (x2); Heavy Bolter (x4)
1 Sergeant @ [15] Pts
Bolter

6 Devastator Squad @ 165 Pts
Bolter (x2); Heavy Bolter (x4)
1 Sergeant @ [15] Pts
Bolter

Total Roster Cost: 1746

dornsfist wrote:Stelek, that is exactly the type of post I am absolutely NOT looking for. I even took the time to post an example of that kind of feedback, and you copied it almost word for word. That tells me one of three things.
You are incapable of giving feedback in a civil, constructive way.
You need to pump up your ego by bashing others.
You are a classic troll looking to derail the post into a pissing contest.
I am not interested in any of those so please, post something helpful or step off. It's that simple. Thanks.

dornsfist, if someone posts information that isn't helpful to you, you can just ignore it. It was not what you asked for, but there's no need to insult the poster. People will figure out quickly enough that the response doesn't apply to what you're asking about. If you feel that a post is out of hand, you can always hit the Alert Mod button.

Stelek wrote:Well you've figured out how to call names, not actually build lists.

Don't ask for people to be truthful, then call names when they are.

None of the lists shown in this thread are tournament worthy.

To be fair, Stelek, he asked what could be done to improve the list and why, not if it was any good or not. You did crack down on his list without giving him any advice, which is what he was looking for.

As usual, the Boilerplate is that anyone can PM a mod if they feel like they've been treated unfairly.

Good luck with your advice, dornsfist!

True. I was aghast at the tactical concepts listed for the army, and that was after I was shocked at the army list.

Wants me to take it seriously, and I can't.

I'm none of the things I've been accused of being, the list is simply wretched and I had to have some time to figure out a way to improve upon it without just making my own up.

I do that for everybody, ya know. Sometimes it just takes a while to cough up a list.

Stelek wrote:This army has no real assault, and why you'd bother bringing a dread and razorbacks is beyond me.

That does qualify as advice, doesn't it?

No real assault? And 2 scout squads constitute REAL assault. Are you serious? Whatever.

I do like Tigurius and the devs from your list. I love the vets, but you are the first to agree with me on that configuration. But the bike squad has to be 2 assault bikes with multi-meltas. Much better than meltaguns for the same price. I have played against lists in GT's similar to your scout theme. Not impressed by any of them. Do you really think this would excell in a GT? Have you ever played with this type of list?

Stelek wrote:
I do that for everybody, ya know. Sometimes it just takes a while to cough up a list.

Stelek wrote:This army has no real assault, and why you'd bother bringing a dread and razorbacks is beyond me.

That does qualify as advice, doesn't it?

Most people don't appreciate list advice that comes off as negative without alternatives. If they're asking for advice it means that they can't figure out what to do themselves, a post like that comes off as saying "Your list/unit sucks." and just walking away at that. It's true that you do come back and post ideas constructively, but the gap in between doesn't do you any favours with most people .

Devastators are crap. They are inferior in every way to a las/plas squad.

If you get tempted to take a dev squad, ask yourself if you've got 6 las/plas first, because they are just flat out better.

The only reason to take devs is:
8 with 4 heavy bolters (@ 180)

But in my opinion, this is an inferior choice to predators because they can't:
1) Move and shoot
2) Move 12 to grab objectives
3) Cost 70 pts less
4) Tank shock
5) Block LOS

An AV13 tank for 110pts that has a 42" engagement range is strongly likely to be more durable than an 8 man squad of marines at 64% more points. Even if it isn't more durable, it'll definitely be more useful, because it can move.

People talk a lot of crap about AV13 tanks being easy to destroy but this is simply not as true in practice as it is in people's heads. When the AV13 tank costs 180 points (like a Hammerhead) or 155-175 points (like an oldschool kitted Chaos predator) you are correct.

When you have to shoot multiple lascannons (it should take around 5 or some odd lascannons to kill a pred) at something that costs barely over a hundred points, you start getting into the range of "is it even worth it?"

---------------------------------------------

Regarding the idea of missile launchers on dev squads, you start looking at a 200point squad that can engage one tank per turn and cannot touch 2+ save folks and is questionable against troops (since even 3+ save guys will sit in cover and take minimal casualties).

So you're paying 200points for a squad that cannot move and can only reliably engage tanks/armor.

This starts looking pretty crappy when you realize that for not many more points you can get a squad that can move and shoot and dish out 8 S7 rending shots per turn (Terminators - 5 man, 2 asscans, tankhunters @ 265).

Or for 115 pts you can get a lascannon and a plasmagun that can engage vehicles, monsters or terminators at will.

Everything you say about Devastators not being able to move and fire applies to the Lascannon too, you know...

Viperion

Stelek's army:

3 static lascannons (S10)
3 static missile launchers
2 meltaguns w/3 meltabombers
12 heavy bolters
2 completely useless scout squads who are 4+ with no jump packs
exactly three squads capable of mobile antitank (and not great at it)
Tigurius, but with no command squad, which is a much better value than veterans

Sure it's unique, but it can't beat Godzilla nids, and has almost no chance against Orks

12 heavy bolters vs a Kff -> 36 shots, 24 hits, 16 wounds, 11ish dead. 3 turns of firing for one squad of orks. Doh.

Proof positive that unique doesn't mean good

Viperion wrote:Everything you say about Devastators not being able to move and fire applies to the Lascannon too, you know...

Viperion

The lascannon/plas squad
1) enables you to engage more enemies (cheaper)
2) Can engage a larger variety of enemies effectivey so rates to waste fewer shots
3) Can be moved to get to an objective or get out of the way, or sacrificed to countercharge/misdirect charges (because it's a lot cheaper).