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Quickie suggestion regarding the template you have going

This guy:
Commander Master w/ jump pack, pair of lightning claws, iron halo, terminator honors @165 points

Should be either:
Master w/jump pack, lightning claws (55 or so fewer points

This is because he's just not going to charge any units that can fist him anyway, so why bother with an invulnerable? It's too risky. Use him to kill soft targets or don't engage him.

or

Master w/lightning claws, with a terminator command squad w/2 cannons, furious charge

Personally I would do neither and leave him at home, for either another Librarian or nothing.

Think outside the box.

12 heavy bolters now 'suck' against the KFF. Which YOUR Ork armies don't seem to have.

You have the miracle Predators, don't ya? Those 4 Lascannons you (and alot of others) say is best just can't take them out but my 3 S10 Lascannons can't?

Command squad on a IC makes me laugh. Yes please, let me torrent some wounds onto your librarian. What's that, he's good in CC especially with 20 Scouts hiding behind the lines? Wait, there's also 2 Land Speeders to zip and take objectives or run out with the scouts and lay down fire into assault units coming forward?

The assault scout units are countercharge units. If you aren't sure how to run gunline marines properly, why don't you ask instead of coming off as a jackass?

I played with this list when the Smurfs first came out. As usual, 5 vics and top ten battle points. The army was never designed to do anything but take losses on relatively cheap troops and knock out enemy tanks. The devs which are somehow 'crap' do wonders against everyone but true Plague Marines.

Why don't you run your Gojira lists, and I'll kill your dakkafexes by turn 3 and you just keep on shooting me with your uber BC/VC combo.

Run mech tau, and you'll have very little left on the board by turn 4. If you have Crisis suits, you have a chance to win if I haven't kept my devs back behind the las/mis squads.

Eldar are more of a pita now but that's the way of it.

Since I hear alot about how all other armies are inferior, I guess I'd just 'autowin' against such armies?

Come on. Be serious, not whiney. Both of you, Longshot and dornsfist. You don't need alot of mobility to beat people back from your lines, especially if you can infiltrate your scouts everywhere.

Everytime Stelek posts an armylist I shake my head and no it isnt because he's rude in any post that critiques lists. They all seem to be static shooty. Boring and easy to spank.

I have no idea how you think those lists are so unbeatable. You may rock hard against the 5 players that live in Utah, but bring any of those static garbage lists over to the East Coast and you'll be schooled in short order.

Wow, anecdotal evidence for the win.

Go redo the math on your army against Godzilla with the nids shooting back (and running 50 gaunts and 6 raveners and a 2+ save Flyrant right at you, along with the 3 dakkafexes and the Walkrant with two guard).

Deadshane1 wrote:Everytime Stelek posts an armylist I shake my head. They all seem to be static shooty. Boring and easy to spank.

I have no idea how you think those lists are so unbeatable. You may rock hard against the 5 players that live in Utah, but bring any of those static garbage lists over to the East Coast and you'll be schooled in short order.

I am convinced Stelek's club doesn't know about "terrain" and skipped the portion of the rulebook entitled "Cover saves."

Advice to Stelek: not everybody plays against kids on tables with huge killing fields in the middle. Thats the only way your static shooty lists are successful.

If gaming lists are that bad in the midwest, I NEED to hit Las Vegas this year!

Sweet, bagged two trolls with one post.

Gee, you mean...scary Boston? Baltimore? Philly?

Oh right, I'm FROM Philly and my 'career' started back east.

Darnit, I didn't get schooled but since I left the competition has gotten better, right?

I don't know what GW events you've been to, but they aren't exactly known for 50% terrain.

I'm glad all of my armies are static, boring, easily schooled...and unbeaten both out here in the West and sadly for your ego, in the East.

Oh right, I run mobile Tau, IG, Nids, Eldar, and Dark Eldar...but since I win with the static and the mobile armies--what can I say to you? You're a twin set of trolls, who have nothing better to do than post insults my way. I'm sure it's been noted by others.

LOL! I know! See if you two can get this thread locked with more personal attacks on me.

I think Iorek's limit on thread stupidity is about 5 posts.

LOLOL

Man you post things that are ridiculous and then someone calls them ridiculous and it's an insult.

Bring on the holofielded vypers! Maybe they can fend off my vicious "personal attacks" on your poor defenseless army lists. I hope I have not hurt their feelings so badly that their undefeated records are in jeopardy.

Stelek wrote:Sweet, bagged two trolls with one post.

Gee, you mean...scary Boston? Baltimore? Philly?

Oh right, I'm FROM Philly and my 'career' started back east.

Darnit, I didn't get schooled but since I left the competition has gotten better, right?

I don't know what GW events you've been to, but they aren't exactly known for 50% terrain.

I'm glad all of my armies are static, boring, easily schooled...and unbeaten both out here in the West and sadly for your ego, in the East.

Oh right, I run mobile Tau, IG, Nids, Eldar, and Dark Eldar...but since I win with the static and the mobile armies--what can I say to you? You're a twin set of trolls, who have nothing better to do than post insults my way. I'm sure it's been noted by others.

LOL! I know! See if you two can get this thread locked with more personal attacks on me.

I think Iorek's limit on thread stupidity is about 5 posts.

LOLOL

My ego's fine thanx.

The Troll claims he's been 'Trolled'. Thats funny, and cute, but I doubt anyone on this forum would consider Longshot or me more of an internet bully than you. You're probably the biggest forum Rambo Ive seen here.

Its easy to talk about how "undefeated" your lists are? Care to provide a name or proof so we can peruse your battle points in the GT circuit over the last few years? I'd be interested to look...really. I mean who are you Stelek? Has everybody heard of you? Are you another Greg Sparks, Marc Parker, Mike Muecheller or some such? You claim these unbeatable armies and all these wins...

(really not trying to be an a$$ here, I'm genuinly curious)

Longshot wrote:Wow, anecdotal evidence for the win.

Go redo the math on your army against Godzilla with the nids shooting back (and running 50 gaunts and 6 raveners and a 2+ save Flyrant right at you, along with the 3 dakkafexes and the Walkrant with two guard).

Indeed.

Flyrant ftl. Scouts with Power fist vs mr. previously wounded ftw. Roll that uber 6+ save!

I sure hope Tigerboy isn't around to lend a hand.

I wonder if those are spinegaunts at 1750 points. I'm sure heavy bolters work worse against them.

Woot you sure know how to hijack threads and turn them into 'Stelek sucks' and 'Stelek's army lists suck' threads.

Ah the power of the troll.

You can't use the search feature deadshane?

I'm surprised at your comment, you've been an ass to me in pretty much every thread except one.

Yes, just once it's that dead on what you'll say.

Stelek wrote:

I'm surprised at your comment, you've been an ass to me in pretty much every thread except one.

.

Your posting habits breeds that sort of treatment. If you look closely, if I've been a jerk to you in a thread, its only in response to your less than savory character.

Longshot I know it's difficult to get this through your fething head, but give it a shot.

You and I play differently. You seem more comfortable in 50-75% terrain.

I'm just fine with 0-50% terrain. I can use some terrain, but at most GT's there is a serious dearth of it.

At RTT's it isn't much better since it's difficult for people to create alot of terrain and not have it suck. My FLGS has excellent terrain, where pretty much every other game store in the state sucks balls in the terrain department. We don't use 5 foot strips of felt and call it woods around here.

So I don't care how you play at your FLGS or what your preferences are for terrain. You simply don't get that much terrain at GW events. It's a fact of life.

You see, my problem with your comments isn't about my lists, since making good lists just takes experience. You think I'm going to just spread my army across the board like some noob, and let you pick off a flank with a mobile list. Well I hate to break it to you, but I'm not going to. I know what I'm doing. If you aren't as good as me, the army you run really won't matter. I'll beat you.

No amount of 'you suck' or 'your lists suck' is going to change that. I've seen the lists you post. What, I should be scared? You waste tons of points and you refuse to see the light of day on the subject.

Fine by me, I've no problem telling you what will happen to your unoptimized lists if they run into mine. Even if you are better than me as a general, you have a serious disadvantage with your lists and if you don't see that...well, again, nothing I can do about it.

The guys that I play here in Utah are very good. I don't expect you to really grasp that, but as I help them as much as I can they help me. Alot of people think everyone runs 'my' armies locally. They just run hyperoptimized lists because I force it on them. We still have fun, which is something you two don't seem at all interested in doing. Which is a damn shame.

Well deadshane, when I post a comment your way that's rude, why don't you tell me so?

Your way is piling on, trying to get a game of 'kill the cow' going.

If I'm not talking to you, and I'm not doing anything that requires a mod to intervene...why do you feel the need to pile on and troll?

I'm sure dornsfist isn't pleased with this crapload of posts between you, me, and longshot that's you attacking me when I'm talking to him and not you.

Explain to me how in 3 rounds of shooting you killed:

5 x 8 spinegaunts (woops, only 40).
1 x 3 raveners
2 x 1 raveners
3 dakkafexes
a Flyrant
a Walkrant with scream and two guard
3 zoanthropes with scream/warp blast
(yes this is 1750 instead of my normal 1850), with 2 gunfexes additionally)


I am not trying to derail this thread. I'm putting it out there that your list cannot beat Godzilla, Eldar, Necrons or Orks. It is therefore disqualified for tournament list standards.

Assume at least five pieces of terrain on the board, and your list folds like a house of cards.

------------------------------------------------

As a separate note: Please calculate how many orks you can kill before they get within 13" of you, assuming no cover or KFF.

I am imagining even with bolters, you are going to be looking at substantially less than two 30 man squads.

Since your army cannot redeploy effectively, that means on Turn 3 you lose vs. Orks. If they've got Stormboyz, you are conceding at the end of Turn 2.

Screw this. I'm going to bed. Nothing more to say in this thread anyway. Dorn can take what he wants from our discussion I guess.

Truth be told, I don't even like the template I posted. I think it's boring and not going to beat many of the opponents I've described (eldar, nids, necrons, etc). It's at least not a joke when you have to move/use terrain though.

I am fairly sure that drop pods are the best bet for a real tournament marine army, these days.

I'm just adding another voice to the masses. Here's another tourney player that thinks your static gunlines that you post are garbage. Static gunlines arent good advice for collecting a competetive army, not for GT's anyway.

Speaking of which after perusal of the GW site and GT's for the last 4 years, I didnt see your name at the top of the pile. Of course I didnt see it at all so perhaps I overlooked it. Care to point out one of your GT "Triumphs"? You can call it Credentials if you will.

Ah so you only managed to use the search feature for one post or two?

Since I really don't feel like explaining it all again, search harder.

You and longshot are the masses at the moment.

Funny how you criticize all my lists.

Insert 'TMC' into 'static gunlines' or 'mobile' into it, and your posts are the same crap.

Best part I guess is you post anywhere I post, because you excel at trolling but fail at giving useful advice.

He didn't ask for a drop pod army. Let me see, it's Marines...you 'experts' think Predators live on the 40k battlefield because there's some kind of 'trick' with terrain that only you know about and the rest of us poor slobs just don't "get it". You also think 8 assault marines is far superior to scouts, when the fact is EVERYONE can outassault marines and bodies is what counts--oh, except in MY lists, because you have 500 Orks and I can't kill them all but 8 assault marines will take the Orks out?

Who are you kidding with your nonsense?

See, it's all about trolling for you two, not about advice.

For me, it's all about giving advice.

I'm sure it's as obvious to everyone else as it is to me, but if you think 'predators' with 4 las/plas squads is somehow more 'mobile' then my static gunlines you've gotta stop playing noobs with battleforce armies.

I really love how they aren't competitive, but I've always taken a top 10 spot at the GT's in battlepoints. I never really noticed until I had trollers like you tell me I suck, which honestly didn't hurt my feelings but did make me go see just how good I am (or think I am) and I found that out. Now go use the search feature, and if you've got nothing better to do than tell me to f*ck off, keep going down that road.

Oh and stop thread sniping. My [insert list type here] sucks but are undefeated. Yours are so good, but yours are the ones I beat.

All those damn noobs on table 3, game 5, right?

Stelek wrote:I really love how they aren't competitive, but I've always taken a top 10 spot at the GT's in battlepoints.

Again, I simply ask, where? I didnt see an A. Sutton on any of the GT statistic reports for the last few years. It's a lot of names though. "Always" would imply that you are frequently rocking hard at GT's. You rant so long and hard about how we're telling you that you suck (after you point out others Ideas that "SUCK"), but you cant be bothered to mention a few GT's that you've played in over the past few years?

Its a lot of names and like I said maybe I overlooked you. Then again, perhaps your GT records are nonexistant, and you're all talk.

When I notice your name on the Stat boards on the GW sites GT reports and see that you are indeed doing better than myself or players I game with on a frequent basis, I'll be the first one to apologise for doubting your proficiency, not only that, but probably be more interested on hearing more about your 40k theory.

I know when I do awesome at a tournement I'm only to happy to point out how awesome I feel that I am ....I dont ask people to go search.

http://www.adepticon.org/modules.php?name=Sections&op=viewarticle&artid=54 (6th with unpainted sisters)

http://www.adepticon.org/modules.php?name=Sections&op=viewarticle&artid=76

Stelek wrote:I really love how they aren't competitive, but I've always taken a top 10 spot at the GT's in battlepoints.

According to your DakkaDakka profile, your name is Andrew E Sutton. If that is correct, you played at the following GT in 2007:

Las Vegas

And did not play in
AdeptiCon
Atlanta Gamesday
Baltimore Gamesday
Chicago
Los Angeles
Baltimore

And could possibly have played in Necronomicon in Florida, as the 2007 results are no longer available.

In Las Vegas, you did indeed come in the top 10 in Battle points - in fact, tied for 7th if I am reading the results correctly. You also finished DEAD LAST in sportsmanship, scoring 18 out of 50, resulting in an overall ranking of 82/162. If the original poster wants to do well at tournaments, I think there are better players to listen to.

Viperion

There's nothing wrong on using tac squads to bring lascannons but if you're doing it you have to bring some kind of anti-infantry since all those bolters go to waste. This is where whirlwinds, HB dev squads, scout squads, assault squads (with either chappy or flamers) and terminators come in.

Viperion: Hilarious. It's as if you think the 'shame' approach works.

Since it's too difficult for you to use the 'search' feature and see my very very long winded opinions on the GT scene, sportsmanship, indy's, etc...

I'll sum up the 'winning' record here:

Lots of top 10 battle point finishes. I have nothing but disdain for the other scores given the many flaws in the GT system. Of course, you'd know all this if you could just use the search feature. Or, look at the threads I've created. They're under my profile too.

Deadshane: Proudly proclaiming your lameness (unpainted...wow impressive) and how great you are at the Indy's doesn't really mean much to me. GW has this most excellent record method, I like to call it 'if the name on the ticket doesn't match the name given, don't write ANY names down'. It's a long story, suffice to say I've bought tons of tickets off ebay in the last decade as who in my 'circle' expresses an interest to go is almost always 'hey there's a GT in a week, wanna go?'.

I'm sorry I missed you. I posted a picture of myself. I plan to attend Las Vegas. Please, no non-tournament 'grudge' matches. I'm a grownup, my epeen doesn't need to be measured constantly.

Personally I'm glad this keeps coming up. The shallow hal syndrome is very much alive and well. I hope more new people come to dakka and see this same thread about me over and over again.

It's quite entertaining for me. I hope people come up to me at Las Vegas and call me names. It'll be a cherished memory for years to come.

Oh wait...I won't even remember this when I wake up in the morning. lol Football (ok, anything) > you.

No offense, brave sir robin.

Tacobake wrote:There's nothing wrong on using tac squads to bring lascannons but if you're doing it you have to bring some kind of anti-infantry since all those bolters go to waste. This is where whirlwinds, HB dev squads, scout squads, assault squads (with either chappy or flamers) and terminators come in.

Man. Pure genius. Wish I'd said that.

Well, not the whirlwinds but I think that's just personal experience, I haven't lost my Dracon + Incubi to one yet. lol course now that I don't run them much anymore it's unlikely I ever will....

Stelek wrote:

Deadshane: Proudly proclaiming your lameness (unpainted...wow impressive) and how great you are at the Indy's doesn't really mean much to me. GW has this most excellent record method, I like to call it 'if the name on the ticket doesn't match the name given, don't write ANY names down'. It's a long story, suffice to say I've bought tons of tickets off ebay in the last decade as who in my 'circle' expresses an interest to go is almost always 'hey there's a GT in a week, wanna go?'.
.

Thats just the last two years, if you take a look at my actual GT record I WAY outperform your little 82nd place victory at nearly every GT (if not all) I've attended over the last several years. (you talk about MY lameness, LAST for sportsmanship?) But that isnt the point here is it? I wasnt talking about how "Great" I am, I was simply posting that stating some "Winning Credentials" might be helpful to your cause, but you seem rather loathe to do so. Players with winning records are normally all to happy to post examples of triumphant moments in gaming...Your record is left to mystery, yet you claim to be this UNBEATABLE player...which brings us to another point....

...now all of a sudden your name doenst appear on the rosters? THAT is rich. You take other peoples tickets, and claim to do awesome at GT's under false names? My friend, you HAVE no claim to ANYTHING! Stating that you're undefeated at GT's means nothing unless you can prove it...you've failed here. You're claims are a joke.

As far as us meeting up at the Vegas GT, I'd love to play in the actual tournement against you, unless its during the first game I doubt it will happen, according to your only GT example that I've seen (the one viperion pointed out) I normally play against players a bit higher on the proverbial totem pole than you....much higher. Your calling on GT experiences to validate your claims when you cannot even prove that you were there is about the most ridiculous thing I've heard from you on these forums. (closely followed by your Vyper tactica)

Stelek wrote:

Tacobake wrote:There's nothing wrong on using tac squads to bring lascannons but if you're doing it you have to bring some kind of anti-infantry since all those bolters go to waste. This is where whirlwinds, HB dev squads, scout squads, assault squads (with either chappy or flamers) and terminators come in.

Man. Pure genius. Wish I'd said that.

Well, not the whirlwinds but I think that's just personal experience, I haven't lost my Dracon + Incubi to one yet. lol course now that I don't run them much anymore it's unlikely I ever will....

gosh. You're cool too, Stelek .

All this tournament talk has me itching for a GAME.

I certainly don't want this to be viewed as an insult to Stelek, but I do have a question for you. You seem to engender almost immediate dislike in every thread you post in. You score dead last in sporsmanship. You even mentioned that your club didn't like playing your IG last chancer army any more. I know you have carefully built this "straight talking, non-nonsense guy who calls it like he sees it and isn't afraid to call a spade a spade," but isn't it possible that people view you as a jerk?

And I don't mean a friendly, Dr. House/Andy Rooney type jerk that acts all curmeudgonly but has but actually is quite charming. Judging from your reactions to peoples posts regarding you, in which you immediatly call them trolls, accuse them of personal attacks, and generally act victimized at their cruelt and uncalled for actions. If you cannot see why the people around you flame you, knock down your sports scores or refuse to play you, it might not be because we're all awful people.

My point is that Stelek is making the insinuation that we're all jerks, that Sportsmanship is not only flawed, but totally broken, and that he is an innocent victim standing in the middle of it all. I'd like to at least offer an alternate theory.

Look, I like a lot of Stelek's ideas. they're original and interesting, he certainly seems to know his stuff, and I'm glad to get more traffic and more debate. I want him around, as it's good for Dakka and good for the hobby. I'm just worried that what will happen is one by one all the posters, including myself, will start to automatically ignore his posts as they read any thread.

So, stelek, feel free to alert the mods, or insult me back if you feel it's appropriate. I know you've got his whole persona thing going, and if it's working well for you, then by all means keep it. I want to have you as a contributing member here, and if you want to actually have a voice that's listened to, you may want to throttle the hostility back, not because you have to, but simply because the great always have to make sacrifices for the weak.

As for the topic of space marines. I can't vouche for tournament winning lists, unfortunatly, due to my own inabilities. I tend to run las/plas, predators, termies, and an assault squad for countercharge in larger games.

I like to add a chaplain to the assault squad, which makes it a powerful unit, but also very expensive.

Predator v. Devs: the more las/plas you take, the more you want to take predators. The reason is simple: you want mobility in your shooting phase, and you want to minize the gunline, hordes of marines that suck in HTH sitting next to each other. The beauty to predators is that they are cheap, and if running termies, a lure for all of the enemies AP2 anti-tank.

If were to craft a 1750 SM army, it'd probably look something like this:

Master, claws, TDA, 4 termies w/ 2AC, fruious charge
Libby, Fear/Fury, TDA, 4 termies w/ 2 AC, Tank hunter

4x las/plas

3x tornado

3x predator

It's certainly not ideal, but I think its on the right track in having only 4 static elements, and those provide what the every army craves: long range anti-tank. Based on Steleks suggestion, part of me is highly tempted to drop a marine from each squad and buy Tank Hunters. 6 man squad size is a good starting point, but I'm beginning to think we put more credit in optimem scoring size over actual performance.

To answer the OP/s questions: for the same price as a tac squad in rhino, you can buy terminators. For the same price (roughly) as a razorback, you can buy a tornado. At 1750, where points are a still a bit tight, you don't need to buy sub-optimal units from the SM codex. I love what razorbacks do for me in big games, but you're not there yet in size.

Wow, I'd actually like to bring the topic back on track rather than arguing about Stelek.

I'll start off and say I don't like the list in the original post a whole lot.

Too many Rhinos and Razorbacks to start with, they're just not very good in a normal SM army.

Your assault squad is too small to do what it really needs to: Deliver that power fist to kill off whatever assault element DOES make it to your lines. 8 Guys is about what I've found to work. I used a chaplain in my lists, which made the assault squad better, but that was a year ago and 40k has changed since then. You need a Librarian in your lists now to counter things like the Lash and the occasional Eldar power, mostly the Lash and general Chaos powers now though.

There are a few things I think that a Marine GT list needs now with Nidzilla, Mech Eldar, and the new Orks, the main thing being 3 Whirlwinds.

You guys keep arguing about getting heavy bolter dev squads or predator destructors. These things are good, but IMO none of them offer the versatility of a SM Whirlwind. They'll kill hordes in droves and do it to ones that are out of LOS (key to stopping Storm Boyz, stealers, etc). Sometimes it's better to use the minefields, like against Eldar, which can stop a Harlie bomb from being delivered to your lines, by pounding the back of Falcons with three minefields when it moves into position the turn before the harlies get out.

I like to use 4-5 units of 6 Man Las/Plas as a firebase. Using them right is absolutely key to the army list because they're the core. You should be able to see any assault coming the turn before it happens, look for it and move your squads so that an opponent can't consolidate from the assault, and then make it so your squad either dies or falls back (don't leave models in B2B after being killed, so you can fail your LD and run away, rather than have a sweeping advance/ATSKNF scenario pop up).

After you fill these criteria, I like to fill out the rest of my points with Terminators (5 Guys, 2 Assault cannons, Tank Hunters optional) and Speeder Tornados.

Voodoo: I've never used Whirlwinds myself, but I hated them in 3rd ed when I played IG all the time. I'm guessing for maximum effect you should use them with the mine laying option? It's an option I always forget about, and they're dirt cheap.

With regards to terrain and LOS, do you find it possible to hide three WWs in most games?

The mines aren't always the best option. Go with them against Eldar, but in general I like the regular template against hordes and the like. It's all you really need most of the time.

That and the 4+ to hit models isn't always reliable for the minefields.