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I have used the 3 WW "Minefield of doom" strategy a couple of times and it is fun, difficult to hide all 3 but fun. The only reason that I do not think it is a optimal strategy is that it is predicated on you having more firepower than your opponent and him having to MOVE to get to you. If your opponent has more firepower, then he can just sit back and outshoot you. This problem can be compounded by the fact that your HS slots are filled up with whirlwinds.

Darrian

Battle points in the context of a soft-score based tournament is a poor diagnostic of list / player strength as the list /player is scoring easy points against lists that are purposefully handicapped.

In no-comp tournaments marines that work come almost entirely in drop pods. Dark Angels did well in the UK this year, but that may be due to 50% of the missions using escalation.

Darrian13 wrote:I have used the 3 WW "Minefield of doom" strategy a couple of times and it is fun, difficult to hide all 3 but fun. The only reason that I do not think it is a optimal strategy is that it is predicated on you having more firepower than your opponent and him having to MOVE to get to you. If your opponent has more firepower, then he can just sit back and outshoot you. This problem can be compounded by the fact that your HS slots are filled up with whirlwinds.

Darrian

This is why most of the time you want to actually use the regular template instead of the minefields, so you're not based on making your opponent move. In fact the only army I can think of where I'd use the mines instead of the template is against Eldar specifically so I can stop their assaults out of Falcons and I get a turn to actually hurt them.

On the topic of hiding them, well think of it this way, if a Mech Eldar or Mech Tau player can reliably count on being able to hide their 3+ Skimmers for the first turn, then you should be able to hide 3 Whirlwinds. It may be in one area, but the Rhino Chassis is pretty small, it shouldn't be that hard to do reliably.

As a side note, here's what I came up with as a quick basis of a 1750 marine list that I would take to a GT to win in light of Mech Eldar, Tau, Gaunts+Zillas, and Orks:

Epistolary - 136
Fury/Fear, Bolt Pistol, Frags, Combat Shield

5 Terminators, 2 Assault Cannons - 240
5 Terminators, 2 Assault Cannons - 240

6 Marines, Las/Plas - 115
6 Marines, Las/Plas - 115
6 Marines, Las/Plas - 115
6 Marines, Las/Plas - 115
6 Marines, Las/Plas - 115

8 Assault Marines, 2 Plasma Pistols, Vet w/ PF - 216
Speeder Tornado - 80

Whirlwind - 85
Whirlwind - 85
Whirlwind - 85

1747

I may replace the last las/plas squad with another speeder, tweak a few things here and there, but in general this is what I'd think I'd need to take in order to effectively take on all comers.

The downside (and the reason I'm not playing Marines like this anymore) is that it is boring as hell.

How well have you found Whirlwinds to work? Can you guys relate some experiences? I've never seen them do much of anything myself.

Polonius: I'll lie on the couch for a moment. I'm not normal nor some easy going guy. Not at first glance, people have known me for years before I've let them in the door. Simply the way I am. I try not to be a jerk, but being honest about every g-d damn thing does not make you popular. I've learned to cut my ardor a bit and try to not come across as rude. My friends call me mr. "Ok". Nothing seems to bother me in-game, I just say 'ok'. It infuriates people because they expect some kind of emotion. I don't offer any. Now given that the internet is worse for communicating in that you can't see my body language...well I've always come across as a jackass. Just the way it is. As far as the 'woe is me', nah I don't call other people names and since I don't know anyone personally (well ok, one guy I do know but I'm doing my best to reconcile with him) I can only suggest that if me telling you your army list sucks and all I get is 'prove to me you know what you're talking about'...well, other forums are like that, and I don't visit them for that reason. It gets old real fast. I don't put into my posts 'if you haven't scored higher than me at a GT, nothing you say matters'. Other people get the right to do that to me because.....? I'm a very stubborn opinionated oft-SOB, and I haven't had my ass just handed to me in 10 years of GT's (gee, when there weren't any Indy's--were all the 'good' players in 'X location' just painting their armies up waiting for the chance to show everyone the business or what?? it's ridiculous the junk people throw at me) so I should be silent why? Someone doesn't like the way I say something? It's the internet, for g-ds sake. Get a thicker skin, like I was told to. If you think sportsmanship at a GT proves I'm an donkey-cave, well that's pretty g-d damn sad. Dave said something about how tiring my opponents were. He didn't seem to grasp it was my army, which was unique at the LV GT, was what was tiring people out. I lost so few models it was silly. Lose 5 guys and take out 150+ guard? If I was those guys, I'd be tired of playing PDQ myself. Nothing to shoot but invulnerable Falcons. Gee, sure was fun and you can tell. Combine that with my indifference to losing models, and yes I can see why people would be tired of playing me.
Know what though? Only 1 out of the 5 people I played had any social graces whatsoever, and didn't do one of two things to me: 1) Oh, your army is cheese. feth you for playing it. 2) Oh, I can beat your army sooo easy. Noob. ===== That's fun? I still gave ALL those jackasses 10 points, like I always do. The one guy who was fun to play with, had a nice army, had a personality, well he gave me almost half my sportsmanship points. So if ONE guy can have a fun game because he didn't come to the table with the 'oh is this adepticon gladiator match 4?' attitude, why lay the blame for a gakky scoring system on just me? I complained long and hard to the tournament organizer about this, but you see for all the low sportsmanship scores none of the 4 opponents who were apparently saying I was a dick, actually said that to the tournament organizer. I asked him, and them. And fyi because of horrible hotel conditions, I pretty much went without sleep from Fri-Sun. It wasn't a good thing.
Alot of people go to GT's thinking they have the 'perfect' army, and when they take a loss they think it's because the other guy was an donkey-cave. Since I don't cheat, know the rules, and don't care if you blow something away...that makes me an donkey-cave? Guys that are there to have fun, don't give me low sportsmanship scores. Guys that are there to win and dick you out of a chance to win, give you the minimum score required to not have a GW guy come talk to you about why it's so low. Who's the donkey-cave in that situation? Me? Come on. Playing only 2 adults (1 was the nice guy, the other got screwed by escalation and killed exactly 2 falcons and lost 80% of his IG to JSJ) really didn't help matters. I swear 2 of those teenagers I played, I thought they were going to cry they were so petulant. *I* complained to the organizer about it, because it was ruining my fun.
I don't know you people, so what I say is directed not at you but at your list. Since I consider myself one of the best players around, an opinion of mine I can think I'm entitled to and you can think I'm not...well, if your list is inferior I'm going to tell you so. My delivery might have all the grace of a B-52 bombing, but what do you want? The truth in a carefully padded egg shell, or just the truth? Aren't people going to go out and spend alot of money on these armies? Then spend their time converting and painting them? If they go to a GT with a list that's subpar and no experience in using it, how well do you think they'll do? I'd NEVER played my Eldar before the LV GT. I still won all my games, so what's that say? I suck? Ok, fine, I suck. Anyway my point is I'd rather someone tell me my list is crap and why, than spend 800$ on it and find out it's crap at a GT. You know why the local guys are held in such high esteem by me? They give me a challenge. I've shown them just about every army and every 'trick' or 'gimmick' I know, and they've learned to adapt and instead of being massacred, they've begun to draw me. Guys at GT's haven't done that, and if you want to go spend a grand to play at a RTT with unpainted models (the Indy's) then by all means do so. I won't. The LV GT had 2 unpainted armies and it infuriated me, especially since I had to play them! You want people like me to come, you have to have standards and I don't really care if Adepticon, Necroblahblah, or really any other Indy says they have standards you still find tons of unpainted armies there. Save that crap for your FLGS. It's another reason I don't go, while I don't like the way GW scores the soft scores at least they bring in beautiful armies which despite all my bother about being so good at this game that's really what I love to see at GT's. Play my opponent, go watch other people play and enjoy their armies on the battlefield. Call me crazy, but isn't the hobby at least something to care about? Hope that clears things up a little. Sorry for being so damn long.

Voodoo, that looks pretty decent actually.

I would suggest using a termie command squad for the Librarian though, for a couple reasons--

1) It lets you give him furious charge (which is amazing) and you get terminator armor (which is excellent)
2) It lets you buy a 4 man terminator squad, which is mighty awesome.

I also think that, in general, assault squads with 2 flamers will outperform whirlwinds. Having one or two whirlwinds would be good. Having three I think is too many.

A lot of games that third whirlwind will be stuck out like a sore thumb, or have to be placed somewhere undefendable that it gets whacked by bikes Turn 2.

My modification to your list would be to do the terminator squad change, drop a whirlwind, drop the tornado speeder, add more assault marines, and give both squads flamers.

I might drop two las plas squads for more terminators, too, but that's questionable (and requires a tiny bit of points monkeying). I think four las/plas squads is about what you can realistically find good spots in cover for, in most games.

@Stelek - Dude, I'm not going to get into an argument with you, because it's just not my thing to do.

But this thread is not the place for posts like that. You seem to argue with a lot of people here, maybe a thread in Discussions where you can hash it all out is the place to do that, not here.

@Longshot

When I started writing the list, he had a Termy command squad and all that, but I changed it for the following reasons:

For me, half the "mobility" of the SM list is the deepstriking Terminators, going where you need them as the game progresses. It takes heat off your gunline elements.

Granted, sometimes you want to start them on the table when your opponent can't bring out a lot of AP2 to the table and you need those assault cannons firing to clear out a horde (Nidzilla w/ Gaunts, Ork hordes). But generally you want them deepstriking most of the time.

I figure I'd want that Libby on the table turn 1, doing some kind of Counter Charge for the Las/Plas, and for the Hood, and for the Fury shots at things out of LOS.

Granted, there are times when I bet I could want the Libby to deepstrike in and Fear something (like Tau, IG), so I can see maybe changing it around, but generally when I ran the Termy Libby + Command squad he just got focused on the minute he came in.

I'd drop one plasma pistol on the assault marines for a flamer-- if only for orks, but it's also great on any other geqs. Though I don't know, they will be pretty damn well spread out because of the WWs. Hmmm...

I'd drop one WW, and a Las/plas for another Assault squad. From playing against marines, I can tell you It takes much more thought before going into assault with an assault squad, when there's another nearby to back them up. Also gives the list another much needed mobile scoring unit.

I'll agree about wanting the libby on the board turn one-- just for the psychic hood. That thing throws a wrench into so many armies plans.

Also consider that you need to be able to hide the tornado first turn too, not just the WWs. While this may not be such a huge deal, it just means your tornado might be in a less than optimal place.

Btw, thank for getting this thread back on track. I swear to god, there should just be a forum just for Stelek, that all these discussions can go in.

-Leo037

I hate anything built on a Rhino chassis. Personal attitude, not a 'die-hard' fact, so don't hate me.

In GT's-DP all the way. 1 Melta in each squad. Counter attack and Tru Grit.

You can field 60 Grunts for 1320 points.
Spend your last 180 on a Lunatic on a bike-and your'e sweet. Boring as hell, super beardy/cheeze....but effective.

Drop next to a tank. Melt it. Drop next to troops, RF them, then when they charge you you get 2 Attacks each grunt.

Not fancy, but not nice either.

IME- Tau-ded. IG-ded. Nids-very tough to beat. Orky Bitz-mix with IG/Nids-can be tough with a good General/Nob.
DE-bad news. Just stay away from them if you can.
SM-good fight, and you generally get to pop a LR or other tank straight away, but tough opponents as well.

Just my .02 cents worth.

akira5665 wrote:I hate anything built on a Rhino chassis. Personal attitude, not a 'die-hard' fact, so don't hate me.

In GT's-DP all the way. 1 Melta in each squad. Counter attack and Tru Grit.

You can field 60 Grunts for 1320 points.
Spend your last 180 on a Lunatic on a bike-and your'e sweet. Boring as hell, super beardy/cheeze....but effective.

Drop next to a tank. Melt it. Drop next to troops, RF them, then when they charge you you get 2 Attacks each grunt.

Not fancy, but not nice either.

IME- Tau-ded. IG-ded. Nids-very tough to beat. Orky Bitz-mix with IG/Nids-can be tough with a good General/Nob.
DE-bad news. Just stay away from them if you can.
SM-good fight, and you generally get to pop a LR or other tank straight away, but tough opponents as well.

Just my .02 cents worth.

Drop Pods are good, but they're not universal. Mech Eldar & Nidzilla in specific missions will hose you, badly. Mech Eldar will always hose you, because they will make a mobile castle by a table edge, you will shake the Falcons, and then they'll scatter and you'll be hosed as they take you down.

@Cypher - Multiple assault marines with Flamers isn't a bad idea, and with Mobility being the issue it is, you may be on a good track. I'd playtest it, but I'm doing Orks for the tournaments this year.

Drop the T home for the chap,

Drop the Plasma Pistols for the assault squad, give them 2x flamers. 12 Gens died my last battle because I rosted them alive with my flamers and then finished off the last few with the bolt pistols. Flamers to me just seem to work better as a counter assault item. DC company was mauled with two flamers and bolt pistols and then assaulted via chappy and asault squad.

Points remaining, +3

Troops section,

1st tact unit, drop the heavy bolter and the meltagun or change out the gear to bolt pistols and chain swords with dbl melta guns. Seems to me that if your going to run a melta gun, run two and run them with BP CS for counter assault. This unit is either looking to kill a MC and take the assault or open a CANN and take the assault. Though, I guess it would dep on what you like to run because dbl tap works really good. oh btw, keep the Vet PF.

Rhino for the unit must have x armour. Many a time I have used rhinos as moble terrian and many times that have been hit hard and able to still move because of the fact that I had x armour.

Personally I could not make any more changes because I would be re writting the list for you. As it is, I do not hold to six man las plas. I would also pref to have a las tank hunter at five men then a las plas six man unit ( pointless to explain why because everybody has their set ways! ) . I would also rather have at least two units of dbl tap plus 2x assault weapons. Rend is really not that big of a deal for a 10 man squad to take (good general will remove them before he has to much to worry about ).

I just played an RTT at 2200 points and all three missions required you to move. You also have to factor in the fact that you might not get six turns because of the amount of troops your taking. Walking SM is great for the long haul I know but the end result in a RTT or GT would hender you for your heavy weapon. (Mission) Walk on first turn with me setting up in the middle would find this army returning to its display tray( mission I played ) Unplanned assault was another that on the 3rd turn you rolled to see what the objective was. I am just seeing a big turn from the norm of set up and fire away. Movement on this mission allowed to move in and dbl tap some of his units, even allowed a tact p fist BP CC squad to clean up a Term unit. They are really starting to come out with some crazy mission for us all to play.

Back to your point about your 1750 Template. I think the true Template should be more of a dbl tap template. This is our core item that can do the most damage to another army. Toss in 2x assault weapon to your units and now they are able to widle down main units( MC, Termies, tanks, point sinks). Another factor to add is moving AP killing or tank busting power. Pred at 120 is well worth the buy and yes another X points if you have it to up it with heavy bolters.


I would change out the temp to include more Razorbacks and Rhinos and Pred Annil with twin las up top. Dbl up on the assault weapons for your six man unit and blast away. How many times have your rolled that ALLLL one on your single lascannon in the unit. Just in my exp I would rather have a weapon that going to hit then one that might hit.




I just dont see myself really thinking about flipping your temp.

Looking through the GT results for the past year I wonder if it is even worthwhile to talk about a 'Space Marine Template'. Top battle scores almost universally belong to Tau/Eldar/Tyranid. I did see one Ultramarine score in the mid 80's, and one top 5 finish-but with a lower battle score. Evidence would be that the Space Marine Codex does not permit a Grand Tournament winning list.

This is really sad for me because Ultramarines were my first army.

I have the feeling that they may be 'tough as nails' , but are unable to deliver multiple crushing defeats, at least without $1000 worth of Drop Pods.

Problems for my Smurfs would include Tau, with tank killing railguns which outrange everything inmy army. Eldar speeders which are not only hard to kill but much more mobile than your usual antitank stuff. Tau Piranha's which are mobile enough that they always seem to get the flank Melta shot.

Alas.