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 Asherian Command wrote:
As are yours.

I haven't cited any "feminist papers", or whatever vague, anti-intellectual nonsense you're spouting right now. The "geek feminism wiki" site I linked to was simply a discussion of the topic of gender essentialism, not an academic paper, and I never made any assertion that it was anything to the contrary-- as I said, I'm disputing your alleged points, I don't need to prove my position, just prove that yours is utterly baseless.

But even if I had made such a claim, you're making a Tu Quoque fallacy, which does not prove the point you are trying to make.

 Asherian Command wrote:
Notice the maybes and ifs?

This is a hypothetical argument.

Firefox has that nice search feature that will highlight the word you are searching for. There were no maybes and no ifs in the part of your message I quoted!

 Asherian Command wrote:
Ehh matters on situation and the point mostly.

What?

 Asherian Command wrote:
Wow taking my words and taking them to the extremes.

Nope, no extreme here.

 Asherian Command wrote:
What does someone in kenya not have that someone in America has? They have to walk everywhere! And thats not racist. Kenya is a jungle. America is plains and filthy filthy rich. Welcome to this episode of point out the fething obvious.....

That is just SO wrong!
Enjoy your “jungle”:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/48997128@N02/6805141395/
Oh, wait! Savannah! Cities! Not goddamn South America, or South-East Asia but Africa!
That video was more informed about Kenya than your post!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FbYtASAakAI
And sorry, but cars exists in Kenya!

 Asherian Command wrote:
*sigh* Yeah the bit on the hair I was wrong, but emotional control.... That is a common phenomenon.

You were wrong on both. Thanks, creationist biology books !

 Asherian Command wrote:
Actually it is true. Women are more dexterous

http://cs.nyu.edu/~ylan/old_website/files/malesFemales05.pdf
PG,4 2005 Study

I managed to track down the article on vervet monkeys (page 5) here:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0018506X08000949
BUT THAT GODDAMN WEBSITE WILL NOT LET ME CONNECT THROUGH MY INSTITUTION LOGIN EVEN THOUGH I HAVE A VALID LOGIN AND PASSWORD! DAMN YOU WEBSITE!
(Somehow, plush became dolls.)
I am a bit confused about that computer science then-student (and now post-doc) posting some report on neuroscience. Being admitted first on the entrance exam at école polytechnique is pretty damn impressive, though. Fun fact: this is were I go twice per week to do climbing.
Other fun fact: she was more talked about in newspapers for being first at some ancient Greek and Latin translation exercise when she was 16 than for any of her later achievement! Apparently she even got to meet our then president! You can see all about it here:
http://cs.nyu.edu/~ylan/old_website/ , on the «ma minute de gloire» section.
Yeah, I went completely off-topic.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Compel wrote:
So, how about switching to a different tact and maybe putting a more positive spin on things. If you were to pick a female character from some recent games that you could pick up and point to a major games studio and say. "Morein her vein please." Who would it be?

Ittle Dew and her, well, sidekick Tippsie.

 Asherian Command wrote:
Are those articles from .edu websites? Are they accreditted by scientists and referenced?

Well, you just put a link to some student's report. Which was NOT a peer-reviewed article referenced by scientists, obviously. Even though the author seems to be very brilliant student, who went on to continue on an academic career on image recognition.
Just so you know, I am a PhD student, so I can put any article I want on my personal website hosted by the lab, like she did. It will hold the same value. The articles she lists as reference actually are real research papers though.

 VorpalBunny74 wrote:
I meant, of course, the corporate buzzword:

I know, I was messing with you.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
Notice the maybes and ifs?

This is a hypothetical argument.

Firefox has that nice search feature that will highlight the word you are searching for. There were no maybes and no ifs in the part of your message I quoted!

 Asherian Command wrote:
Ehh matters on situation and the point mostly.

What?

 Asherian Command wrote:
Wow taking my words and taking them to the extremes.

Nope, no extreme here.

 Asherian Command wrote:
What does someone in kenya not have that someone in America has? They have to walk everywhere! And thats not racist. Kenya is a jungle. America is plains and filthy filthy rich. Welcome to this episode of point out the fething obvious.....

That is just SO wrong!
Enjoy your “jungle”:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/48997128@N02/6805141395/
Oh, wait! Savannah! Cities! Not goddamn South America, or South-East Asia but Africa!
That video was more informed about Kenya than your post!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FbYtASAakAI
And sorry, but cars exists in Kenya!

 Asherian Command wrote:
*sigh* Yeah the bit on the hair I was wrong, but emotional control.... That is a common phenomenon.

You were wrong on both. Thanks, creationist biology books !

 Asherian Command wrote:
Actually it is true. Women are more dexterous

http://cs.nyu.edu/~ylan/old_website/files/malesFemales05.pdf
PG,4 2005 Study

I managed to track down the article on vervet monkeys (page 5) here:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0018506X08000949
BUT THAT GODDAMN WEBSITE WILL NOT LET ME CONNECT THROUGH MY INSTITUTION LOGIN EVEN THOUGH I HAVE A VALID LOGIN AND PASSWORD! DAMN YOU WEBSITE!
(Somehow, plush became dolls.)
I am a bit confused about that computer science then-student (and now post-doc) posting some report on neuroscience. Being admitted first on the entrance exam at école polytechnique is pretty damn impressive, though. Fun fact: this is were I go twice per week to do climbing.
Other fun fact: she was more talked about in newspapers for being first at some ancient Greek and Latin translation exercise when she was 16 than for any of her later achievement! Apparently she even got to meet our then president! You can see all about it here:
http://cs.nyu.edu/~ylan/old_website/ , on the «ma minute de gloire» section.
Yeah, I went completely off-topic.

I withdraw my statements.

But yeah the article on women is something I do not. On differences yes.

I am not saying that all kenyans do not have cars, But
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_geography


(NSFW) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_physical_appearance
Acoording to some scientists human beings according to where they are located their appearances are changed. This is over a long period of time. Not instantly.

 Asherian Command wrote:
But yeah the article on women is something I do not. On differences yes.

I just have no idea what you mean.

Anyhow, in case you missed it, there is no some more stuff in my last message.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
But yeah the article on women is something I do not. On differences yes.

I just have no idea what you mean.

Anyhow, in case you missed it, there is no some more stuff in my last message.

Well I cannot personally access pinkies' article because I do not have a login key. So I cannot directly reference the articles. If I could I would. :/ Sadly my school does not give me that luxury.

What I mean is there are subtle differences between men and women, they exist. And per that article they do indded happen to be in existance. They are not as big and different as people make it out to be. They are slight precentages not overwhelmingly large like people like to think.

When I say a woman is more emotional involved. It does not mean to the extreme it means more than a man, which is a tiny, tiny percentage higher.

Those are usually what the science reports say.

Well, you just put a link to some student's report. Which was NOT a peer-reviewed article referenced by scientists, obviously. Even though the author seems to be very brilliant student, who went on to continue on an academic career on image recognition.
Just so you know, I am a PhD student, so I can put any article I want on my personal website hosted by the lab, like she did. It will hold the same value. The articles she lists as reference actually are real research papers though.

It is extremely well written and something I can see as being referenced for science papers. Though I don't think it should be dismissed. It is obvious that it was reviewed and editted severally which gives it crediability to the subject at hand.

Though another thing is that I am the son of a PHD student. I know you peeps get access to a ton of things. My mother worked in an insane asylum and no longer works as a doctor but a church secretary.... (yeah she needs a better job and I keep telling her she would be less stressed as a doctor, if you could believe that.)

Though I would like to find the sources.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I know, I was messing with you.

It's hard to tell sometimes with you, you cheeky rapscallion!

 Asherian Command wrote:
What I mean is there are subtle differences between men and women, they exist. And per that article they do indded happen to be in existance.

.

 Asherian Command wrote:
When I say a woman is more emotional involved. It does not mean to the extreme it means more than a man, which is a tiny, tiny percentage higher.

If it is less than the variance between men, then it is pretty clear that you can completely forget it when designing video games, you know.

 Asherian Command wrote:
It is extremely well written and something I can see as being referenced for science papers. Though I don't think it should be dismissed. It is obvious that it was reviewed and editted severally which gives it crediability to the subject at hand.

Oh Asherian Command, you really have no idea how research work, do you?
That is my work. I know about it.

 Asherian Command wrote:
Though another thing is that I am the son of a PHD student.

I knew that PhD could last longer in the U.S., but how old are you? I mean, you said you were a game designer!

I knew that PhD could last longer in the U.S., but how old are you? I mean, you said you were a game designer!

20

But I am an idiot sometimes. It is not uncommon for me to challenge older people to intellectual fights. Though that might be because I like learning and being proven wrong.

I am considered a game designer, not because I am also studying it, but because I am actually good at what I do. Mostly at writing, critiquing and figuring out alot of things that players like. Such as engagement.

Oh Asherian Command, you really have no idea how research work, do you?
That is my work. I know about it.

Matters on the research, it could be personal observation,
Hitting the books, searching it up, from personal experiences, from other experience.

If it is less than the variance between men, then it is pretty clear that you can completely forget it when designing video games, you know.

They are subtle they should be made aware of, but only when in detailing the character. You have to be very specific when creating a creator in a game. Otherwise the game is no good.

A good character is one that is been designed. Hence our name Game Designers.

 Asherian Command wrote:
20

So, your father is still a PhD student at around 40?
In France, really, being a PhD student after turning 30 is already pretty damn exceptional.
At least in “hard” science and mathematics.

 Asherian Command wrote:
I am considered a game designer, not because I am also studying it, but because I am actually good at what I do. Mostly at writing, critiquing and figuring out alot of things that players like. Such as engagement.

I am not sure what you mean. Do you get a check every day for your work as a game designer? Can you name a video game you worked on?

 Asherian Command wrote:
Matters on the research, it could be personal observation,
Hitting the books, searching it up, from personal experiences, from other experience.

I should have said academic research. Her work is a student assignment. Maybe it is a very good one, but there is no original results in it. It was never published or peer-reviewed, and it was never meant to be. It is a good introduction, and list of reference, but that is all it is supposed to be.
The article even qualifies itself as a “mini-review”:

We have not mentionned(sic) evolutionary considerations so far, as they were outside the scope of that mini-review ;

Page 14.

 Asherian Command wrote:
They are subtle they should be made aware of, but only when in detailing the character. You have to be very specific when creating a creator in a game. Otherwise the game is no good.

I am not sure what you mean. Do you get a check every day for your work as a game designer? Can you name a video game you worked on?

I've only worked on one. Though I am only accredditted as an editor Remember we are designers in training, but we are still considered a designer.

So, your father is still a PhD student at around 40?
In France, really, being a PhD student after turning 30 is already pretty damn exceptional.
At least in “hard” science and mathematics.

My father never got his PhD, my Mother was the only person able to get her PhD, my father got his masters in health and business. They are well in to their 60s.

 Compel wrote:
So, how about switching to a different tact and maybe putting a more positive spin on things. If you were to pick a female character from some recent games that you could pick up and point to a major games studio and say. "Morein her vein please." Who would it be?

Just wanted to bring something up that tangentially relates to this question.

I'm not a believer in false equivalency.

In this case, it's important to point out that if someone were to say, make a series of videos covering the representation of women in video games, they would be justified in filling every segment with hundreds of negative examples, and still be both correct and justified in their representation of women in gaming media. That is, at least until the topics reach very recent times, which the percentage might go up for positive examples a small amount. The same goes for making a forum thread too.

And that's no matter how much others, even myself, don't like the videos for the lack positive examples.

This is very important to realize. Promoting positive examples is a good thing, and in fact it's the only way to move the industry forward. However, to gloss over or deny the fact that over 99% of portrayals of women in gaming media for decades has been negative doesn't help either.

It's why I've decided not to have high heeled, boob plate, armored women sculpts in my miniature game, even though most I've talked to would be okay with some level of that if it wasn't ridiculous.

There has to be some level of snap back against the decades of negative examples prior.

Also, at this point, I'm not even sure what Asherian, Melissia, and Co. are even arguing about. It's devolved into obscure long chains of multi and line quoting that no one can even follow. I'm not even sure if they're all even arguing against, or if they're even on opposite sides of an argument.

I think this is a bit of a silly issue to discuss because games are so broad and varied in their depiction of female characters. I definitely have a problem with the idea that we should force developers to arbitrarily include more women or more important roles for women in their games.

 Kali wrote:
I think this is a bit of a silly issue to discuss because games are so broad and varied in their depiction of female characters. I definitely have a problem with the idea that we should force developers to arbitrarily include more women or more important roles for women in their games.

So basically balance it out? I mean I think it is dumb too to demand that developers follow my perceptions.

except if they are do so in an insulting manner.

I think games have come a very long way, and will continue to strive forward.

Sex should be a facet of a character, not the other way around. If the story calls for a female character, then go for it, but don't modify the story or the characters to suit political purposes.

 Kali wrote:
Sex should be a facet of a character, not the other way around. If the story calls for a female character, then go for it, but don't modify the story or the characters to suit political purposes.

What if they do it just because they want to? Maybe if you can give me an example of where gender flipping has actually had a negative effect, like, any negative effect at all, then I might start to understand your view. Heck, there may even be an example in that link I just posted. There's hundreds there so at least one of them has to be bad, right?

 Vertrucio wrote:
Also, at this point, I'm not even sure what Asherian, Melissia, and Co. are even arguing about. It's devolved into obscure long chains of multi and line quoting that no one can even follow. I'm not even sure if they're all even arguing against, or if they're even on opposite sides of an argument.

I visit this thread every other day and I wonder why the arguments always change. How can this go on with only... what? half a dozen or three regular posters?

 Lotet wrote:

 Kali wrote:
Sex should be a facet of a character, not the other way around. If the story calls for a female character, then go for it, but don't modify the story or the characters to suit political purposes.

What if they do it just because they want to?

That's perfectly valid since it's their vision to make the character that way. I'm concerned about constraining developers because of political pressure, unfortunately quite a real threat today.

Political pressure constraining creators is not new, nor is it anymore threatening today than it was five hundred years ago, or five hundred years before that.

If someone is so weak willed that they'll allow public opinion to decide how they practice their craft, they're probably not producing anything worthwhile anyway.

 LordofHats wrote:
Political pressure constraining creators is not new, nor is it anymore threatening today than it was five hundred years ago, or five hundred years before that.

If someone is so weak willed that they'll allow public opinion to decide how they practice their craft, they're probably not producing anything worthwhile anyway.

It may not be new but the battle is nevertheless ongoing and there are victories to be won, so I'm not inclined to detach from the issue and let chips fall. If nobody stands up for creative freedoms, then even the most independent-minded developers will be forced to toe the line or else lose access to resources and audiences that only the mainstream provides.

 Kali wrote:
then even the most independent-minded developers will be forced to toe the line or else lose access to resources and audiences that only the mainstream provides.

That pretty much already happens with the current developer/publisher relationship in the game industry. Honestly, feminist advocates getting their way would reduce this trend, not increase it. Publishers already exist in some bizarre pseudo-universe where women don't exist and are utterly convinced that Generic White Grunting Guy is the only protagonist that sells.

Publishers are interested in selling to their market and their market is overwhelmingly male and young. Expanding that market means creating new niches, not reinventing the wheel and displacing your core audience. As a gamer, I'm simply not interested in feminist values permeating my entertainment media and most developers feel the same way. It's not only a matter of how gaming isn't equal in its pandering, but also why it shouldn't be. After all, we all want creators to make things that we like and I'm just one among countless others who are interested in defending and promoting the community and market to incentivize that productive behavior.

 Kali wrote:
Publishers are interested in selling to their market and their market is overwhelmingly male and young.

And? It's kind of outlandish to proclaim young males only wanted to play white men considering the popularity of Tomb Raider, Metroid, etc etc.

As outlandish as claiming this group will lose interest if other kinds of protagonists are created.

As a gamer, I'm simply not interested in feminist values permeating my entertainment media and most developers feel the same way.

Framing this as an issue of advancing feminist values is a complete misnomer. Nothing about including more dynamic females in lead and supporting roles is all that obstructive. To the contrary, most developers seem amicable to broadening horizons. Why wouldn't they be? If you're just retreading the same ground as everyone else, then your job is pretty boring. It's publishers who aren't interested because publishers don't care about creation (just profiting from it).

 Kali wrote:
Sex should be a facet of a character, not the other way around. If the story calls for a female character, then go for it, but don't modify the story or the characters to suit political purposes.

The problem here is that games designers, and you apparently, assume the male to be the default. We get lots of male characters in video games because all of the stories call for them, and then a few women thrown in when we need a love interest or something to placate those whiney female gamers.

Its not a question of whether the story calls specifically for a woman (otherwise we default to a man), but a question of 'why on earth shouldn't it have a woman in it?'. Its a fictional game; if your imagination can stretch to whip-blades, laser guns and zombies, but not to women wanting to use the guns or fight the zombies, I think there is something very wrong with your imagination.

The story doesn't have to change. It just needs more women in it. Maybe they could even be wearing clothes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kali wrote:
Publishers are interested in selling to their market and their market is overwhelmingly male and young. Expanding that market means creating new niches, not reinventing the wheel and displacing your core audience. As a gamer, I'm simply not interested in feminist values permeating my entertainment media and most developers feel the same way. It's not only a matter of how gaming isn't equal in its pandering, but also why it shouldn't be. After all, we all want creators to make things that we like and I'm just one among countless others who are interested in defending and promoting the community and market to incentivize that productive behavior.

As a gamer, I am truly interested in feminist ideals permeating the games that I play. Would it really hurt to include a playable female character? You could keep the male character. Honest. Just a little toggle to the left on the main screen and the character gets another X chromasome. That's all I'm after.

The problem with saying that the market is 'male and young' is that it creates a catch 22 in favour of the status quo. All of the main characters are men, so you attract a male audience. Then if women don't want to play the games with a male character, you point and say 'obviously only men want to play, lets make more male main characters'. But if women do play the games with male main characters, you get to point and say 'we're attracting a female audience, lets change nothing'.


http://www.theesa.com/facts/pdfs/esa_ef_2014.pdf

I'll leave this here. 50% of games purchased by women. 48% played by women. Average game player is 31. There is your 'Overwhelmingly young, male audence'.

It's not even necessary to go into demographics. Really, all the argument amounts to is "I think games shouldn't be influenced by any sort of pressure, except for the ones that interest me." It's a moot argument (they keep coming up in the this thread it seems).

If people want the industry to be free of political pressures, they're barking up the wrong tree trying to reinforce the current status quo, as it only really exists because of a round of circular logic produced by publishers (granted, it's by no means unique to video games). They already engage in censorship quite actively.

If a character is good, they will garner interest, whether they be man, woman, hero, villain, murderer, rapist, etc. So long as it is interesting it will fly. What's between their legs is really a ludicrously minor issue to have blown up as much as it is. Some women asking for more women in games isn't going to ruin anyone else's fun times.

 Kali wrote:
I think this is a bit of a silly issue to discuss because games are so broad and varied in their depiction of female characters. I definitely have a problem with the idea that we should force developers to arbitrarily include more women or more important roles for women in their games.

I'd like to point out that the portrayal of female characters in games actually hasn't been that broad and varied up until very recently, and even these days the portrayal of a vast majority of female characters is iffy. That's the whole point of this, and many other discussions on the topic. I think I can count the number of female characters in all of video games that aren't wearing something either skin tight, or with a low cut, boob hugging top.

And, most importantly, no one is forcing you, or developers, to do anything. There is no political pressure, there is creative pressure to do a better job of making characters that don't follow the same tired tropes. Pointing out these issues of portrayal is getting such a defensive reaction because people are too used to it being the norm.

Also, you have to realize that there is also real political, social, and marketing pressure to make characters male. Not sure if you realize this. If you don't, you should go examine the phenomenon before continuing. I'm a male, and I can look around with eyes open at the reality of it. If you're also male, look down and take a look at your body and see if any of the men portrayed in games are representing anything like you.

Also, publishers only think that their market is male and young. The reality is that the game playing and buying public is actually made up more of 20-30+ year olds. Also, the gap between male and female players is dwindling. But part of the reason there is a gap at all is what we're talking about. If you talk about different gaming markets, there's actually a huge number of female game players that play casual games. Those might never be converted to the type that will play or at least try an in depth game, but we'll never know if the market doesn't change it's portrayal of women that drives away women from even trying.

It's a common defensive reaction to think that feminism is a negative pressure. Reality is, that pressure is just eyes being opened. It's like your avatar. Japanese animation, while often lauded for unique portrayals of women, is just as much a cesspool of the worst portrayals of, well, any group of people in existence.

 Kali wrote:
If nobody stands up for creative freedoms

The convenient, hypocrite excuse.

 Kali wrote:
As a gamer, I'm simply not interested in feminist values permeating my entertainment media and most developers feel the same way. It's not only a matter of how gaming isn't equal in its pandering, but also why it shouldn't be. After all, we all want creators to make things that we like and I'm just one among countless others who are interested in defending and promoting the community and market to incentivize that productive behavior.

The truth.

It is funny how you did not even notice how you were contradicting yourself.

 Kali wrote:
If the story calls for a female character, then go for it, but don't modify the story or the characters to suit political purposes.

So, what do you believe:
- If the story explicitly require a male character (because of that segment when he cannot use his hands and have to write his name in the snow ), then make him a man, if the story explicitely require a female character (because she will become pregnant during the game ) then make her a woman, and if none of the above, make him a man, or
- If the story explicitly require a male character , then make him a man, if the story explicitely require a female character then make her a woman, and if none of the above, toss a coin to see if you are going to make it a man or a woman, or
- If the story explicitly require a male character, then make him a man, if the story explicitely require a female character then make her a woman, and if none of the above, make her a woman, that is fine for you.

I strongly suspect it is the first solution.

Also please provide example of why a story would have to be modified if the character's gender is changed.

 Asherian Command wrote:
I've only worked on one. Though I am only accredditted as an editor

Name ?

So, people don't like the current level of female characters available for play in games in addition to tropes that come along with being a female.

Has it occurred to anything to actually do anything about this?

I don't get it, is the cry for equality or more attention? Because if anyone has actually played any video games in the past, say, 15 years there have been MASSIVE improvements in gender equality within gaming. Of course, no one will actually admit to this, because, it's easier to bitch and complain.

I'm not against anything, or for anything really.

Right, because I have the millions of dollars needed to make a big budget game. Because that's the kind of game we're referring to here-- most indie games do not get the kind of market share or impact that games by multi-million (or multi-billion) dollar producers get (indie games are also more likely to be creative, but have less budget to use to expand on their creativity). Your objections are meaningless.

 Frankenberry wrote:
Because if anyone has actually played any video games in the past, say, 15 years there have been MASSIVE improvements in gender equality within gaming.

I am not so sure. Fourteen years ago we already had American McGee's Alice. About forty years ago we had Metroid. Nowadays we have Smite.
15 years ago, Brood War had those female units portraits:


Now, we have this in Starcraft II:

(Most ridiculous boobplate ever!)
Granted, the medic is still badass-looking:


Not to say it is worse now, but it goes both way. There was terrible stuff back then, there still is now. There was awesome stuff back then, there still is now.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Frankenberry wrote:
Because if anyone has actually played any video games in the past, say, 15 years there have been MASSIVE improvements in gender equality within gaming.

I am not so sure. Fourteen years ago we already had American McGee's Alice. About forty years ago we had Metroid. Nowadays we have Smite.
15 years ago, Brood War had those female units portraits:


Now, we have this in Starcraft II:

(Most ridiculous boobplate ever!)
Granted, the medic is still badass-looking:


Not to say it is worse now, but it goes both way. There was terrible stuff back then, there still is now. There was awesome stuff back then, there still is now.

That's not a boobplate. She's just wearing a very tight suit.
For science reasons.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Frankenberry wrote:
Because if anyone has actually played any video games in the past, say, 15 years there have been MASSIVE improvements in gender equality within gaming.

I am not so sure. Fourteen years ago we already had American McGee's Alice. About forty years ago we had Metroid. Nowadays we have Smite.
15 years ago, Brood War had those female units portraits:


Now, we have this in Starcraft II:

(Most ridiculous boobplate ever!)
Granted, the medic is still badass-looking:


Not to say it is worse now, but it goes both way. There was terrible stuff back then, there still is now. There was awesome stuff back then, there still is now.

Silly thing is, the boobplate actually makes sense here, while pulling high G manouvers having proper support makes sense, its still eyecandy but its kinda justified as silly as it is.

The QoB's high chitin heels Nope nope nope makes no sense at all aswell her boobplate makes no sense at all...