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2014/10/05 19:17:38
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Asherian Command wrote: And that is not what I am saying you can play a woman and the entire game be about male issues.
What the hell is a man issue? I do agree that if a game is all about writing your name in the snow without using your hands or your feet, it calls for a male character, but apart from that?
Asherian Command wrote: But there should be a small difference between how she acts and her male counterpart.
Like the female character going all crazy if a baby is involved while the man do not give a damn? Blah! *disgusted face* Please tell me that is not what you are thinking about.
Apart from the ability to bear a child (well, even that, in a sci-fi or fantasy setting, who knows…) and the ability to write your name in snow by dropping some hot liquid on it, I do not see what you mean.
Asherian Command wrote: I would like to say that men and women are completely the same, but I can't ignore biology.
Do you want a list of games utterly ignoring biology, and physics too, when it comes to the performance of their characters?
Asherian Command wrote: One of the reasons why everyone thinks that femshepherd is stronger is because women are better at emoting and expressing. They are naturally better talkers. And are naturally prone to being more intelligent in this way.
…
You are kidding, right?
VorpalBunny74 wrote: And is that an issue of sexism in the industry, or laziness?
How does that matter? Then end result is the same…I think this is what Melissia is trying to say too. I mean, we are not trying to paint game developers as “bad guys” or to distribute blame. We just want to put the spotlight on something we find problematic so it can be changed. It is a totally different mindset.
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2014/10/05 19:44:35
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Asherian Command wrote: And that is not what I am saying you can play a woman and the entire game be about male issues.
What the hell is a man issue? I do agree that if a game is all about writing your name in the snow without using your hands or your feet, it calls for a male character, but apart from that?
Asherian Command wrote: But there should be a small difference between how she acts and her male counterpart.
Like the female character going all crazy if a baby is involved while the man do not give a damn? Blah! *disgusted face* Please tell me that is not what you are thinking about.
Apart from the ability to bear a child (well, even that, in a sci-fi or fantasy setting, who knows…) and the ability to write your name in snow by dropping some hot liquid on it, I do not see what you mean.
Asherian Command wrote: I would like to say that men and women are completely the same, but I can't ignore biology.
Do you want a list of games utterly ignoring biology, and physics too, when it comes to the performance of their characters?
Asherian Command wrote: One of the reasons why everyone thinks that femshepherd is stronger is because women are better at emoting and expressing. They are naturally better talkers. And are naturally prone to being more intelligent in this way.
… You are kidding, right?
VorpalBunny74 wrote: And is that an issue of sexism in the industry, or laziness?
How does that matter? Then end result is the same…I think this is what Melissia is trying to say too. I mean, we are not trying to paint game developers as “bad guys” or to distribute blame. We just want to put the spotlight on something we find problematic so it can be changed. It is a totally different mindset.
I think you are taking my ideas and taking them to the extremes. I said subtle, not stupidly over the top. You can hear subtle differences.
Rationality is something I am good at.
Being sexist is not rational to me. It doesn't really compute with my brain.
I think there is a big difference between being lazy and being compotent.
Propaganda games are a big issue.
But being lazy can be just as devastating as someone who is willingly making a propaganda game
Laziness can only go so far.
There are quite a few lazy games. (like ride to hell retribution). That paint women as commodities that is completely sexist.
Those games though are frowned upon and hated. By the entire game industry in general.
Also I am calling women more intelligent then men. That is truth. We have be told women have smaller brains and are stupider by scientists for years. I literally looked up are women smarter then men? I found yes and yes. Women's brains are far more efficient then men. Just put two of the same personality type and tell them to get work done. Who would be more efficient? The Woman. Sadly I judge intelligence based on how efficiently someone works and works with other peoples.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/10/05 19:53:03
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
2014/10/05 20:38:18
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
But seriously, if being sexist is irrational to you and "doesn't compute in [your] mind", then perhaps you should try to stop advocating for sexist things like gender essentialism.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/05 20:38:49
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2014/10/05 20:54:32
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Melissia wrote: But seriously, if being sexist is irrational to you and "doesn't compute in [your] mind", then perhaps you should try to stop advocating for sexist things like gender essentialism.
Classy. I like how they generalize and make it seem like it is wrong to believe that there are genetic differences between men and women. And physical differences.
Being me I refute the following men and women cannot do eithers job better. That is false.
I am not saying men can do something that women can do better. I am not saying the reverse there are just times and places when these physical differences are apparent. They are subtle. But they are not eye numbingly obvious.
These types of websites also use their own definitions under their definitions I would be classifed as a sexist because I think there is a difference between the two genders. A subtle difference how they do things. I advocate for that belief and I will defend it with scientific fact.
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
2014/10/05 20:54:42
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Vertrucio wrote: A good writer will endeavor to write as best they can in the minds of the characters they create. A good character is still a good character regardless of race or gender.
I don't disagree, but don't good characters have flaws? Unless we are meaning 'good' in the moral alignment sense, not as 'well rounded'
Now, as mentioned, there are issues specific to race and gender. However, if you even have to wonder if you're able to properly write character issues pertaining to race and gender, then either you shouldn't even try, or you do the due diligence and hard work it takes to properly write such a character, without falling back on tired tropes. If you are going to use tropes, then do your job as a writer and actually break those tropes in an interesting way. That's what turns a trope into an archetype.
That was basically my point - that if someone wants to play it safe, they won't be introducing characters that could be in any way held as sexist or racist. But I disagre that tropes should always be broken - Tropes Aren't Always Evil after all, and we could get in the situation where adhering to a trope is actually shocking and pleasing to the audience, due to all the smarty pants trope breakers
I don't disagree, but don't good characters have flaws? Unless we are meaning 'good' in the moral alignment sense, not as 'well rounded'
Yes a good character always has glaring flaws.
That was basically my point - that if someone wants to play it safe, they won't be introducing characters that could be in any way held as sexist or racist. But I disagre that tropes should always be broken - Tropes Aren't Always Evil after all, and we could get in the situation where adhering to a trope is actually shocking and pleasing to the audience, due to all the smarty pants trope breakers
I think tropes are fine, people might be sick of them, but thats like saying you don't like the heroes journey and it is old and tired.
Because no matter what you do most books or movies unwillingly follow the heroes journey and its archetypes.
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
2014/10/05 21:00:43
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
You're claiming that there are genetic differences between male and female personalities that are universal to men and women, and that you know what these differences are-- without actually giving any examples of it, without saying what those differences are, without providing any proof at all. But don't worry, you assure us, even though you can't explain what the supposed universal differences are and what proof you have that they exist, you clearly know what they are!
Except you don't. And don't start quoting some pseudo-science garbage, either. "Evolutionary Psychology" is the Homeopathy of the social sciences.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/05 21:02:02
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2014/10/05 21:04:54
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: How does that matter? Then end result is the same…I think this is what Melissia is trying to say too. I mean, we are not trying to paint game developers as “bad guys” or to distribute blame. We just want to put the spotlight on something we find problematic so it can be changed. It is a totally different mindset.
I'm sorry Hybrid, and this is outside of your control, but I can't take a post seriously if it has the word 'problematic' in it.
Not even kidding. It's like the word 'sheeple' or 'synergy'
Melissia wrote: You're claiming that there are genetic differences between male and female personalities that are universal to men and women, and that you know what these differences are-- without actually giving any examples of it, without saying what those differences are, without providing any proof at all. But don't worry, you assure us, even though you can't explain what the supposed universal differences are and what proof you have that they exist, you clearly know what they are!
Except you don't. And don't start quoting some pseudo-science garbage, either. "Evolutionary Psychology" is the Homeopathy of the social sciences.
Okay fine. The Y Chromosome
Women are different
It is my position that men and women are equal but different. When I say equal, I mean that men and women have a right to equal opportunity and protection under the law. The fact that people in this country are assured these rights does not negate my observation that men and women are at least as different psychologically as they are physically.
None of us would argue the fact that men and women are physically different. The physical differences are rather obvious and most of these can be seen and easily measured. Weight, shape, size and anatomy are not political opinions but rather tangible and easily measured. The physical differences between men and women provide functional advantages and have survival value. Men usually have greater upper body strength, build muscle easily, have thicker skin, bruise less easily and have a lower threshold of awareness of injuries to their extremities. Men are essentially built for physical confrontation and the use of force. Their joints are well suited for throwing objects. A man’s skull is almost always thicker and stronger than a women’s. The stereotype that men are more "thick-headed" than women is not far fetched. A man’s "thick headedness", and other anatomical differences have been associated with a uniquely male attraction to high speed activities and reckless behavior that usually involve collisions with other males or automobiles. Men invented the game "chicken", not women. Men, and a number of other male species of animal seem to charge and crash into each other a great deal in their spare time.
Women on the other hand have four times as many brain cells (neurons) connecting the right and left side of their brain. This latter finding provides physical evidence that supports the observation that men rely easily and more heavily on their left brain to solve one problem one step at a time. Women have more efficient access to both sides of their brain and therefore greater use of their right brain. Women can focus on more than one problem at one time and frequently prefer to solve problems through multiple activities at a time. Nearly every parent has observed how young girls find the conversations of young boys "boring". Young boys express confusion and would rather play sports than participate actively in a conversation between 5 girls who are discussing as many as three subjects at once!
The psychological differences between man and women are less obvious. They can be difficult to describe. Yet these differences can profoundly influence how we form and maintain relationships that can range from work and friendships to marriage and parenting.
Recognizing, understanding, discussing as well as acting skillfully in light of the differences between men and women can be difficult. Our failure to recognize and appreciate these differences can become a life long source of disappointment, frustration, tension and eventually our downfall in a relationship. Not only can these differences destroy a promising relationship, but most people will grudgingly accept or learn to live with the consequences. Eventually they find some compromise or way to cope. Few people ever work past these difficulties. People tend to accept what they don’t understand when they feel powerless to change it.
Relationships between men and women are not impossible or necessarily difficult. Problems simply arise when we expect or assume the opposite sex should think, feel or act the way we do. It’s not that men and women live in completely different realities. Rather, our lack of knowledge and mutual experience gives rise to our difficulties.
Despite great strides in this country toward equality, modern society hasn’t made relationships between men and women any easier. Today’s society has taught us and has imposed on us the expectation that men and women should live together continuously, in communion, and in harmony. These expectations are not only unrealistic but ultimately they leave people feeling unloved, inadequate, cynical, apathetic or ashamed.
The challenge facing men and women is to become aware of their identities, to accept their differences, and to live their lives fully and as skillfully as possible. To do this we must first understand in what ways we are different. We must avoid trying to change others to suit our needs. The following illustrates some important differences between men and women. These differences are not absolute. They describe how men and women are in most situations most of the time.
Men aren't from Mars and women aren't from Venus, but their brains really are wired differently, a new study suggests.
The research, which involved imaging the brains of nearly 1,000 adolescents, found that male brains had more connections within hemispheres, whereas female brains were more connected between hemispheres. The results, which apply to the population as a whole and not individuals, suggest that male brains may be optimized for motor skills, and female brains may be optimized for combining analytical and intuitive thinking.
"On average, men connect front to back [parts of the brain] more strongly than women," whereas "women have stronger connections left to right," said study leader Ragini Verma, an associate professor of radiology at the University of Pennsylvania medical school. But Verma cautioned against making sweeping generalizations about men and women based on the results.
Previous studies have found behavioral differences between men and women. For example, women may have better verbal memory and social cognition, whereas men may have better motor and spatial skills, on average. Brain imaging studies have shown that women have a higher percentage of gray matter, the computational tissue of the brain, while men have a higher percentage of white matter, the connective cables of the brain. But few studies have shown that men's and women's brains are connected differently.
In the study, researchers scanned the brains of 949 young people ages 8 to 22 (428 males and 521 females), using a form of magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) known as diffusion tensor imaging, which maps the diffusion of water molecules within brain tissue. The researchers analyzed the participants as a single group, and as three separate groups split up by age.
As a whole, the young men had stronger connections within cerebral hemispheres while the young women had stronger connections between hemispheres, the study, detailed today (Dec. 2) in the journal Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, found. However, the cerebellum, a part of the brain below the cerebrum that plays a role in coordinating muscle movement, showed the opposite pattern, with males having stronger connections between hemispheres.
Roughly speaking, the back of the brain handles perception and the front of the brain handles action; the left hemisphere of the brain is the seat of logical thinking, while the right side of the brain begets intuitive thinking. The findings lend support to the view that males may excel at motor skills, while women may be better at integrating analysis and intuitive thinking.
"It is fascinating that we can see some of functional differences in men and women structurally," Verma told LiveScience. However, the results do not apply to individual men and women, she said. "Every individual could have part of both men and women in them," she said, referring to the connectivity patterns her team observed.
When the researchers compared the young people by age group, they saw the most pronounced brain differences among adolescents (13.4 to 17 years old), suggesting the sexes begin to diverge in the teen years. Males and females showed the greatest differences in inter-hemisphere brain connectivity during this time, with females having more connections between hemispheres primarily in the frontal lobe. These differences got smaller with age, with older females showing more widely distributed connections throughout the brain rather than just in the frontal lobe.
Currently, scientists can't quantify how much an individual has male- or female-like patterns of brain connectivity. Another lingering question is whether the structural differences result in differences in brain function, or whether differences in function result in structural changes.
The findings could also help scientists understand why certain diseases, such as autism, are more prevalent in males, Verma said.
Also: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFVoaw1cywE Smart guy on this subject. "biology is becoming more in line with a feminist line of thinking. Infecting itself into academia. This is not a problem, but at the same time is and is quite biased."
That took me around a half hour to find. There are about 2,750,000 results.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/10/05 21:21:38
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
2014/10/05 21:34:27
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
I bring up the TV show 'Lost Girl' quite often in these kind of threads but I'm going to mention another TV I enjoy watching due to the 'Call of Duty' angle that was mentioned earlier.
There's a show called 'Strike Back' that I enjoy watching. It treads an interesting line on the whole debate too. The show is produced by a combination of the UK Sky TV with the US channel, Cinemax. Cinemax being nicknamed as Skinemax... As such, there tends to be a situation where, if a female character is introduced, there's a 50/50 chance you're going to see her with her clothes off before the end of the episode.
However, this is where it becomes relevant... It's your typical Military tv show, very Call of Duty-esque.
Except, well, watch this.
4 goodies in a firefight. Half of them are female and the women are shown perfectly competently picking off the baddies, just as well as the guys are. - Not to mention, their boss is none other than Rhona Mitra.
Now, that's a TV show and this thread is about games. Going back to Call of Duty, I'll be honest, I've not played much of the series, but... I remember in Call of Duty 5 you played different characters in individual chapters.
Additionally, as multiplayer is the games emphasis anyway, encouraging the single player game writers to open their minds to thinking, "maybe a female player character might actually add to the game" would not seem to be such a bad idea to me.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/05 21:42:50
2014/10/05 21:40:23
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
I'm aware that you believe men are default and women are therefor weird for not being men, yes.
You linked to a study which had no conclusive findings in actual differences (the Scientific American article made no actual assertions on how men and women are different, only "maybes", and made no assertion that the physical differences in womens vs mens' brains were actually genetically coded), some evolutionary psychology garbage (the EHBOnline article), an article which argued AGAINST your statement (the APA article), an irrelevant short story with no citations, an article on "popular psychology" which provided no citations of of the supposed research discussed in their article, and some random douchebag on the internet.
You fail at providing any evidence.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/10/05 21:44:12
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2014/10/05 21:47:43
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
I'm aware that you believe men are default and women are therefor weird for not being men, yes.
You linked to a study which had no conclusive findings in actual differences (the Scientific American article made no actual assertions on how men and women are different, only "maybes", and made no assertion that the physical differences in womens vs mens' brains were actually genetically coded), some evolutionary psychology garbage (the EHBOnline article), an article which argued AGAINST your statement (the APA article), an irrelevant short story with no citations, an article on "popular psychology" which provided no citations of of the supposed research discussed in their article, and some random douchebag on the internet.
You fail at providing any evidence.
So do you
Men and women have different chromosomes and ever since they do. They are subtle. I have said subtle. Not large and with differences.
Because you have only used a wikipedia article and I could disprove your articles one by one.
I supplied one that was against my point just to humor you. To see if you actually read the articles.
Ignoring articles because of where they come from because they do not align with your beliefs is a sign of willful ignorance Melissia.
Just saying you don't believe that is in itself a terrible idea. You can't say that. Just because you disagree with me.
You are entitled to your opinion yes, but it has to be within reason and rationality. Just saying nope not listening is not helping your case. I listed the Y chromosome as something that makes men and women different. I posted an article which lists that men and women have different wired brains, but over time this changes and slowly start to begin to be similar. During the teens certain parts of the female brain are wire to certain areas. This is commonly known. If you want me to I could call up a doctor ask them this question, they would say the same thing. Men have a difference as well.
Forgetting this is something that designers often forget. Making a girl who acts like a robot is the dumbest idea ever and one of the reasons why i am supporting more subtle differences.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/05 21:51:04
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
2014/10/05 21:50:22
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Asherian Command wrote: Men and women have different chromosomes and ever since they do. They are subtle. I have said subtle. Not large and with differences.
You still haven't named what any of those supposed universal psychological differences between men and women actually are.
I can't blame you for not being able to name things that don't actually exist, but that's usually a good sign that you should stop asserting their existence.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/05 21:50:59
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2014/10/05 21:52:20
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
nomotog wrote: I am looking at crunching some numbers number, but I am looking a my first snag. You can't look every game. It's a lot of games, so I am thinking what ones do you look at. My first thought is to simply look at the highest grossing games. The funny thing is that the highest grossing games are not the games you normally think of when someone says video game. Like Kinect adventures is one of the higher sold games for Xbox. Another Idea I have is to just look at the top ten lists put out by game web pages. Finally we could just pick a random selection if you wanted to be scientific.
Woah now, who said anything about being scientific?
I was just going to grab the games released from 2010-2013, flag if they include a kidnapped character that needs to be rescued as part of the plot, keep it simple.
I'll need help though so I'll start a new thread once the groundwork has been laid.
Well part of my idea was to gather a game list that could be used to look at other trends not just the DiD.
2014/10/05 22:05:47
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Asherian Command wrote: I think you are taking my ideas and taking them to the extremes. I said subtle, not stupidly over the top. You can hear subtle differences.
I still do not think a female character should be more unsettled by a baby than a male character. I think the character's personality and history should determine that, along with the story you want to tell. That can totally mean having a female character playing kick the baby . Would this seem subtle to you?
Please provide an example of a subtle difference that you would deem necessary. Any thing that you would never agree with a female character doing, for instance.
Asherian Command wrote: There are quite a few lazy games. (like ride to hell retribution). That paint women as commodities that is completely sexist.
There is another game that literally treats women as a commodity, at least in multiplayer: Postal². On the other hand, this games try so hard to be offensive in every possible regard that it is actually funny. Like this multiplayer map called Intifada, where the base of one team is a mosque and the map of the other is a synagogue. And that is just the multiplayer, the story mode have tons of pearls, like the only local Pakistani shop being a terrorist base (duh!), some Taliban attacking the local church, some re-enactment of the Waco siege, …
They even managed to include vegetarians as some kind of hate group in the game .
Actually, I just checked their page on Steam, and they have that achievement (a bit NSFW, but I hope it is still okay with Dakka's rules):
Spoiler:
It's not cheating, because it's YOUR dog
That is just one among tons of terrible stuff, but I thought it was worth sharing .
You know that is still sexism, just like saying black people are more intelligent than white people is still racism, right?
Anyhow, I do not understand your hate of propaganda games. I have been playing a bunch of PETA's “propaganda” game, they seemed quite effective at communicating ideas in an enjoyable format. Of course you are not going to enjoy propaganda games that carry what you consider bad ideas, but here the problem is the message, not the format.
VorpalBunny74 wrote: I'm sorry Hybrid, and this is outside of your control, but I can't take a post seriously if it has the word 'problematic' in it.
Not even kidding. It's like the word 'sheeple' or 'synergy'
You are damn wrong, because Synergy is an awesome piece of software. I mean it. By the way, they are recruiting, and if you go there using my referral, I will get £1000. I know that seems insane, but this is completely, 100% genuine!
http://synergy-project.org/jobs/ I have no idea what my referral is supposed to be, but if you are interested by the job, I will definitely look very hard to learn about it .
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2014/10/05 22:28:44
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
nyhow, I do not understand your hate of propaganda games. I have been playing a bunch of PETA's “propaganda” game, they seemed quite effective at communicating ideas in an enjoyable format. Of course you are not going to enjoy propaganda games that carry what you consider bad ideas, but here the problem is the message, not the format.
I have disdain for them because they say the wrong things. They are used to further a goal. And is another form of brainwashing, it is trying to use a movement and trying to force their values upon you. This is why I hate modern feminism or masculism by the way or any movement that trys to silence any voice of opposition, because they don't present facts from both sides and aim to discredit and attack the oppossing side.
They try to make it clear why their ideas are better. Peta can try all its best but it is a propaganda game. They can be well researched. But one day our ancestors are going to look back at these propaganda games, where we demonize russians, middle eastern peoples, europeans, asians, and south americans, And will just shake their head in disgust.
Most propaganda games are usually bad. They paint a false image, they demonize the enemy. They make them seem like evil. Like true evil. Not cartoon evil. I think that is a problem. It is fine to have bad guys, that are a different race, but just making them very similar to a current event is an issue, now if you paint the americans as bad guys I am all for that. But is that propaganda is up for debate. True propaganda are games like Zod's Massacre or Peta games, or America's Army. Those games are quite corrupting and dangerous.
I still do not think a female character should be more unsettled by a baby than a male character. I think the character's personality and history should determine that, along with the story you want to tell. That can totally mean having a female character playing kick the baby . Would this seem subtle to you?
Please provide an example of a subtle difference that you would deem necessary. Any thing that you would never agree with a female character doing, for instance.
I said there are exceptions. And there can be exceptions, but women at certain ages are more emotionally involved than men are. Its just biology of the brain. And development cycles. Though Melissia likes to ignore those studies and bring up feminist studies which say the same thing as I have been raising there are subtle differences. Not big and glooming differences. There are women with smaller muscle mass the men. This does not mean there aren't some women that can have big muscles. There can be, but there will be less of them.
Feminism likes to blame society for this, I would like to blame developmental biology on this. Not society or its pressures.
You know that is still sexism, just like saying black people are more intelligent than white people is still racism, right?
Yes I know but it is not like i am actively putting down an entire gender. There are strengths to each gender. ignoring these strengths is stupid and pointless. Someone growing up in the wilds of kenya are probably better runners than someone growing up in the midwest.
That is a development because of geography which usually has a hand in peoples physical performance. Someone who is from a mountainous area is probably going to be a better runner than someone at sea level.
Geography, and biological components are these small differences, or they are very small differences but they are differences. Men and women have these differences, for example women are usually prone to having more hair and more emotional control. Men do not have this emotional control. And my source for that is read a bloody biology book it will say that.
Though people like to deny that evidence all the time. Saying it is racist or sexist. But what about its just fact? People want us to recognize these people and thats fine, but to always be correct and politically accurate is insane. They don't want to hurt anyones feelings because of facts.
Generalizing is wrong and stupid. But I am not generalizing in this case. I am deliberately going down specific cases and saying this can happen here sometimes and sometimes this can happen.
It is a case by case idea informing my conclusions and proving my hypothesis.
Men and woman are different because:
Their brains are wired differently Women can have childern Men produce sperm Women are subject to having more fat cells Men are not subject to having more fat cells Women have more lean muscles (This is more efficient) Men can have bigger muscles. Women are more dexterious Women are more emotionally involved, Men are more rational based, Women develop Maternal Instinct, Men develop Paternal Instinct, Women are more resistant to pain.* Men are less resistant to pain.*
This is not to say.... That men can't be more resistant to pain, and women sometimes are less resistant to pain.
We will find individuals that will prove that wrong. Due to genetics and biological hereditary traits. Does each one have an advantage over the other yes and no.
Men and women possess certain traits. But in order to well. Exist as a species knowing full well what your gender is capable of is healthy and fine. But saying that both genders are equally the same in every way is just insane. Though that does not mean they are not politically, or socially equal. I mean that they are both socially and politically equal in everyway.
How they are treated is different according to different societies.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/05 22:32:29
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
2014/10/05 22:46:21
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Asherian Command wrote: Generalizing is wrong and stupid. But I am not generalizing in this case.
Yes you are. You're quoting pseudo-scientific nonsense to try to claim there are universal differences between the psychology of men and women, and therefor you're advocating women characters MUST be written differently than male characters, while also asserting that basically anything other than childbirth is a "male" topic.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: How does that matter? Then end result is the same…I think this is what Melissia is trying to say too. I mean, we are not trying to paint game developers as “bad guys” or to distribute blame. We just want to put the spotlight on something we find problematic so it can be changed. It is a totally different mindset.
I'm sorry Hybrid, and this is outside of your control, but I can't take a post seriously if it has the word 'problematic' in it.
Not even kidding. It's like the word '███████' or 'synergy'
Do not use the cursed word, lest you cause the awakening of the forsaken ones.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/10/05 22:52:11
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2014/10/05 22:57:26
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Not necessarily. You can do “propaganda” for the “right” things. I personally agree with PETA on some stuff.
Asherian Command wrote: They are used to further a goal. And is another form of brainwashing, it is trying to use a movement and trying to force their values upon you.
Oh, you mean, they are trying to convince you to share their views. How terrible. That is something horrible you would never do, right?
That was sarcasm, just in case .
So, when designing a video game, if you want your character to have some reaction, because it fits the personality of the character and the style of story you want to tell, how the hell is the gender of the character relevant? They are by very definition exceptions!
Asherian Command wrote: And there can be exceptions, but women at certain ages are more emotionally involved than men are. Its just biology of the brain. And development cycles.
Yeah, right…
I am calling bs on it.
Asherian Command wrote: Feminism likes to blame society for this, I would like to blame developmental biology on this. Not society or its pressures.
Sure you would like to!
Asherian Command wrote: Yes I know but it is not like i am actively putting down an entire gender. There are strengths to each gender. ignoring these strengths is stupid and pointless.
That is pretty much what most sexists have said and still says when trying to defend their sexism. They love expressions like “different but equal”. Actually, quite a bunch of Muslims used that argument to justify the different treatment between men and women in Sharia/Islam. And some of them even dared pretend that the position of women was better than the position of men. Damn fething hypocrites!
Asherian Command wrote: Someone growing up in the wilds of kenya are probably better runners than someone growing up in the midwest.
That is a development because of geography which usually has a hand in peoples physical performance. Someone who is from a mountainous area is probably going to be a better runner than someone at sea level.
What the hell, man? Are you planing to give a talk at BAH or something? Their theories make more sense, and are actually corroborated way more by actual evidence. That is telling something.
Asherian Command wrote: Men and women have these differences, for example women are usually prone to having more hair and more emotional control. Men do not have this emotional control. And my source for that is read a bloody biology book it will say that.
I… do you get your biology book from some Christian or Muslim organization? That would explain quite a bit.
Their brains are wired differently Dubious
Women can have childern True
Men produce sperm True
Women are subject to having more fat cells Maybe Men are not subject to having more fat cells
Women have more lean muscles (This is more efficient) Maybe Men can have bigger muscles.
Women are more dexterious You got to be kidding me!
Women are more emotionally involved, bs Men are more rational based, Double bs Women develop Maternal Instinct, The only difference is that you adjust the term to suit the gender
Men develop Paternal Instinct,
Women are more resistant to pain.*That is the basis of the movie Ilsa She-Wolf of the SS. Just to show you how wrong this is.
Men are less resistant to pain.*
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2014/10/05 23:10:42
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Not necessarily. You can do “propaganda” for the “right” things. I personally agree with PETA on some stuff.
Asherian Command wrote: They are used to further a goal. And is another form of brainwashing, it is trying to use a movement and trying to force their values upon you.
Oh, you mean, they are trying to convince you to share their views. How terrible. That is something horrible you would never do, right? That was sarcasm, just in case .
So, when designing a video game, if you want your character to have some reaction, because it fits the personality of the character and the style of story you want to tell, how the hell is the gender of the character relevant? They are by very definition exceptions!
Asherian Command wrote: And there can be exceptions, but women at certain ages are more emotionally involved than men are. Its just biology of the brain. And development cycles.
Yeah, right… I am calling bs on it.
Asherian Command wrote: Feminism likes to blame society for this, I would like to blame developmental biology on this. Not society or its pressures.
Sure you would like to!
Asherian Command wrote: Yes I know but it is not like i am actively putting down an entire gender. There are strengths to each gender. ignoring these strengths is stupid and pointless.
That is pretty much what most sexists have said and still says when trying to defend their sexism. They love expressions like “different but equal”. Actually, quite a bunch of Muslims used that argument to justify the different treatment between men and women in Sharia/Islam. And some of them even dared pretend that the position of women was better than the position of men. Damn fething hypocrites!
Asherian Command wrote: Someone growing up in the wilds of kenya are probably better runners than someone growing up in the midwest.
That is a development because of geography which usually has a hand in peoples physical performance. Someone who is from a mountainous area is probably going to be a better runner than someone at sea level.
What the hell, man? Are you planing to give a talk at BAH or something? Their theories make more sense, and are actually corroborated way more by actual evidence. That is telling something.
Asherian Command wrote: Men and women have these differences, for example women are usually prone to having more hair and more emotional control. Men do not have this emotional control. And my source for that is read a bloody biology book it will say that.
I… do you get your biology book from some Christian or Muslim organization? That would explain quite a bit.
Their brains are wired differently Dubious Women can have childern True Men produce sperm True Women are subject to having more fat cells Maybe Men are not subject to having more fat cells Women have more lean muscles (This is more efficient) Maybe Men can have bigger muscles. Women are more dexterious You got to be kidding me! Women are more emotionally involved, bs Men are more rational based, Double bs Women develop Maternal Instinct, The only difference is that you adjust the term to suit the gender Men develop Paternal Instinct, Women are more resistant to pain.*That is the basis of the movie Ilsa She-Wolf of the SS. Just to show you how wrong this is. Men are less resistant to pain.*
Like if someone grew up a certain way or in a certain area they would grow up according to those circumstances?
So, when designing a video game, if you want your character to have some reaction, because it fits the personality of the character and the style of story you want to tell, how the hell is the gender of the character relevant? They are by very definition exceptions!
Correct. Heroes are usually an exception to the rules set up of the world. Gender is not relevant to the main character. The hero is not always the main character though. Only in video games are the main characters in most games the hero.
The hero can be. The hero can conform to society and its pressures.
The main character does not. Usually.
Oh, you mean, they are trying to convince you to share their views. How terrible. That is something horrible you would never do, right? That was sarcasm, just in case .
Ehh matters on situation and the point mostly.
Yeah, right… I am calling bs on it.
Most do say that. But then forget that is biological.
That is pretty much what most sexists have said and still says when trying to defend their sexism. They love expressions like “different but equal”. Actually, quite a bunch of Muslims used that argument to justify the different treatment between men and women in Sharia/Islam. And some of them even dared pretend that the position of women was better than the position of men. Damn fething hypocrites!
Wow taking my words and taking them to the extremes. Like you always do, I said subtle. Not nuclear differences. Know the difference. Because you just equated
What the hell, man? Are you planing to give a talk at BAH or something? Their theories make more sense, and are actually corroborated way more by actual evidence. That is telling something.
What does someone in kenya not have that someone in America has? They have to walk everywhere! And thats not racist. Kenya is a jungle. America is plains and filthy filthy rich. Welcome to this episode of point out the fething obvious.....
I… do you get your biology book from some Christian or Muslim organization? That would explain quite a bit.
*sigh* Yeah the bit on the hair I was wrong, but emotional control.... That is a common phenomenon.
Women are more dexterous You got to be kidding me! Women are more emotionally involved, bs Men are more rational based, Double bs
Women are more resistant to pain.*That is the basis of the movie Ilsa She-Wolf of the SS. Just to show you how wrong this is. Men are less resistant to pain.*
Please note I was highly doubtful of these as well. I doubted it extremely.
Also this is related.....
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/10/05 23:16:24
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
2014/10/05 23:16:58
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
"Evolutionary psychology" again. A bunch of pseudoscience nonsense, which provides no evidence for its assertions, with no testable hypothesis.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2014/10/05 23:21:29
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
I think that particular aspect has reached an impass to be honest. I think Asherian, Melissa and Hybrid have all made their points of view quite clear on it. If anyone comes into the thread now, I think they've got enough summary of the viewpoints to come to their own conclusions...
So, how about switching to a different tact and maybe putting a more positive spin on things. If you were to pick a female character from some recent games that you could pick up and point to a major games studio and say. "Morein her vein please." Who would it be?
And, why?
Personally, I've said it before, but more Aveline style characters would be awesome. Admittedly, with a slightly more interesting tweak to her but still.
2014/10/05 23:23:24
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
"Evolutionary psychology" again. A bunch of pseudoscience nonsense, which provides no evidence for its assertions, with no testable hypothesis.
And your theories do not? You have yet to also post a creditable source. You just dismiss because you think it is a pseudo science yet you have said that over and over and I have found large amounts of counter arguments.
I will continue to use them dispute your beliefs. I will continue to post more and more until you are proven completely wrong on this subject.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Compel wrote: I think that particular aspect has reached an impass to be honest. I think Asherian, Melissa and Hybrid have all made their points of view quite clear on it. If anyone comes into the thread now, I think they've got enough summary of the viewpoints to come to their own conclusions...
So, how about switching to a different tact and maybe putting a more positive spin on things. If you were to pick a female character from some recent games that you could pick up and point to a major games studio and say. "Morein her vein please." Who would it be?
And, why?
Personally, I've said it before, but more Aveline style characters would be awesome. Admittedly, with a slightly more interesting tweak to her but still.
hmm Tell tale games have made on of the best childern characters in gaming Clemetine that is believable and is also a female. I want more characters that are not sexualized more interesting.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/05 23:25:10
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
2014/10/05 23:27:14
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Asherian Command wrote: And your theories do not? You have yet to also post a creditable source.
I'm not the one making claims. I'm disputing yours. As such, I am not the one that needs to prove my position. You have yet to provide anything other than quackery and vague "maybes" as support for your argument.
Yeah, just like I've found plenty of people arguing that black people are inherently less intelligent than white people. In scientific research, quantity does not override quality.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2014/10/05 23:27:35
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
I really need to stop saying I agree with people. I don't really agree with most of what Asherian Command is saying. They seem to be arguing about different perceived differences as if they were hard indelible facts that should be followed when making a character. That isn't what I would argue.
I think just think it's important to understand that these are perceptions that your audience might hold and that they can paint how they will react to a character.
2014/10/05 23:34:08
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Asherian Command wrote: And your theories do not? You have yet to also post a creditable source.
I'm not the one making claims. I'm disputing yours. As such, I am not the one that needs to prove my position. You have yet to provide anything other than quackery and vague "maybes" as support for your argument.
Yeah, just like I've found plenty of people arguing that black people are inherently less intelligent than white people. In scientific research, quantity does not override quality.
Are those articles from .edu websites? Are they accreditted by scientists and referenced? No? Then they don't really particularly answer anything.
I really need to stop saying I agree with people. I don't really agree with most of what Asherian Command is saying. They seem to be arguing about different perceived differences as if they were hard indelible facts that should be followed when making a character. That isn't what I would argue.
I think just think it's important to understand that these are perceptions that your audience might hold and that they can paint how they will react to a character.
I am not saying that there are completely needed, there are differences between men and women. In games you don't always have to, but it would be nice if you broke these stereotypes. That is fine.
You can disagree with me. But they are there, but are they important. Not really, but they are subtle differences and knowing those differences are things to remember.
Saying that there are not subtle differences between men and women is just stupid... its so stupid. I can't even comprehend how people say. "Nope, women are the same as men." Yet forgetting basic biology and throwing it to the side because they don't agree with evolutionary biology.
I mean sexual identity I think is another thing games should address.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RUqivXMlpcQ
(Wow extra credits has a whole section on this.)
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
2014/10/05 23:35:09
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Compel wrote: So, how about switching to a different tact and maybe putting a more positive spin on things. If you were to pick a female character from some recent games that you could pick up and point to a major games studio and say. "Morein her vein please." Who would it be?
The female agents (But not the named characters, whom are kind of lame) in Blacklight: Retribution would be an excellent start. Other multiplayer 1st person shooter games could do much worse than following their excellent example.
But if you're referring to roleplaying games specifically, the female player characters in Divinity: Original Sin, Commander Shepard, and female player characters from Shadowrun: Returns, and so on. Characters whom are defined by the player's actions, rather than by the writers, are far more interesting to me.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Asherian Command wrote: Are those articles from .edu websites? Are they accreditted by scientists and referenced? No? Then they don't really particularly answer anything.
Actually, go back half a century and they were.
Just because you believe in the social sciences' version of homeopathy doesn't mean that it has nay merit.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/05 23:38:10
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2014/10/05 23:40:25
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Compel wrote: So, how about switching to a different tact and maybe putting a more positive spin on things. If you were to pick a female character from some recent games that you could pick up and point to a major games studio and say. "Morein her vein please." Who would it be?
The female agents (But not the named characters, whom are kind of lame) in Blacklight: Retribution would be an excellent start. Other multiplayer 1st person shooter games could do much worse than following their excellent example.
But if you're referring to roleplaying games specifically, the female player characters in Divinity: Original Sin, Commander Shepard, and female player characters from Shadowrun: Returns, and so on. Characters whom are defined by the player's actions, rather than by the writers, are far more interesting to me.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Asherian Command wrote: Are those articles from .edu websites? Are they accreditted by scientists and referenced? No? Then they don't really particularly answer anything.
Actually, go back half a century and they were.
Just because you believe in the social sciences' version of homeopathy doesn't mean that it has nay merit.
:/ Are they accreditted? That means no.
I mean Freud or some other psychologists I outright ignore.
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
2014/10/05 23:45:08
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
You are damn wrong, because Synergy is an awesome piece of software. I mean it. By the way, they are recruiting, and if you go there using my referral, I will get £1000. I know that seems insane, but this is completely, 100% genuine!
http://synergy-project.org/jobs/ I have no idea what my referral is supposed to be, but if you are interested by the job, I will definitely look very hard to learn about it
I meant, of course, the corporate buzzword:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/synergy 'the interaction of elements that when combined produce a total effect that is greater than the sum of the individual elements, contributions, etc.; synergism.'
And no, I'm not going to apply for a job to get you £1000. I don't mind if I don't make the scene, I've got a daytime job, I'm doing alright
The topic of the supposed link between race and intelligence is a heated debate even today in the academic world. The objections to the older research are based off of methodological flaws and false assumptions that the research made (the studies did not control for different social upbringings, education, etc., and assumed a genetic cause first before it was actually proven)-- and they're very similar to the flawed methodology and assumptions of the papers you're citing.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/05 23:49:01
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2014/10/05 23:51:34
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
The topic of the supposed link between race and intelligence is a heated debate even today in the academic world. The objections to the older research are based off of methodological flaws and false assumptions that the research made (the studies did not control for different social upbringings, education, etc., and assumed a genetic cause first before it was actually proven)-- and they're very similar to the flawed methodology and assumptions of the papers you're citing.
As are yours. The feminist papers written thus far have ignored certain things and have cherry picked certain things.
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
It's not cheating, because it's YOUR dog
.
