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2014/10/05 00:59:56
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Asherian Command wrote: hey (A woman) can't take on the role of the gruff sarcastic man balls to the wall warrior.
I agree. They can take the roll of the gruff sarcastic woman balls to the wall warrior just fine, though.
Asherian Command wrote: Because males and females reacts differently to the same situations, this means that women in general would react to say a baby differently than a man would.
Uh? What the hell?
Asherian Command wrote: In this day and age just the idea of switching the genders for a game just seems silly and kind of sexist.
If you have a problem with switching the gender of a role, it basically means you want to segregate the role of men and women, and this is basically by definition sexist.
Asherian Command wrote: because if you look at a games as a whole most games woulds be sexist towards males, because the violence taken against men.
There is no “sexist against men”. It is either sexist, or not sexist. If there is some mechanism in the game preventing you from hurting female character while allowing you to butcher the male character, that is sexist.
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2014/10/05 01:03:01
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Compel wrote: Yeah, I think this is where I'm sorta diverging in opinion from Asherian Command a bit now. - No offence intended.
I think the world is too complicated for that. And, especially when talking about games, the protagonist, male or female, is not the average of either sex.
They're an action hero, the amazing, goddamned awesome of awesome exceptions. There's no reason to restrict them by gender roles. In my own view, "The Action Hero" should be the character type, not a subdivision between "The Male Action Hero" and "The Female Action Hero."
I am not saying that at all. But there should be subtle differences.
But there are differences between the two genders.
Ignoring that is ignoring human qualities based on gender is kind of immersive breaking. It should be just subtle not a big difference like a woman action hero has to take breaks during fighting and the guy has big bulky muscles. I think just introducing a gender advantage, like women are shown to be better talkers or more intelligent than men. And men have better skills in terms of adapting to a situation or have less health than women.
Something like that. But not limiting weapon choices or classes based on gender.
I think that is entirely sexist. (basing classes on gender. WHo thought of that idea? I mean I get it a man can't be a priestess, and a woman can't be a priest, but they should have access to the same abilities)
Uh? What the hell?
Its called Maternal Instinct.
Men don't get it.
Ever heard of don't disturb the cub if mother bear is around?
I agree. They can take the roll of the gruff sarcastic woman balls to the wall warrior just fine, though.
I agree. You just need to make that distinction or you don't. And you make it clear the character does not give a gak that she is a woman, she just punches out people and fights crime.
But that is a subtle difference from a man. it is very subtle difference. Not even noticable.
If you have a problem with switching the gender of a role, it basically means you want to segregate the role of men and women, and this is basically by definition sexist.
That is not what I mean. I mean is that there are certain roles women and men can't assume.
There may be exceptions to this though.
But switching genders just because I think is just pandering. And will not help representation of women.
If you have a problem with switching the gender of a role, it basically means you want to segregate the role of men and women, and this is basically by definition sexist.
According to the logic presented yes it is sexist. Because I am only targeting men. I am only killing men. If you can't see how that is even a small amount a bit sexist then tell me how is that not sexist.
Killing men for the sake of killing is much different than killing men because they are men.
That is the difference, if you kill for the sake of killing it is worse in my opinion but it is worse if you are doing it because you are specifically targeting men.
Though feminists on the other side if I replaced men with women and I just killed for the sake of killing would think it was sexist. So i implying the feminist logic from the male side.
It is mostly to diffuse that idea entirely. it is sexist on both sides if you come up to that with that mindset.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/05 01:09:52
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
2014/10/05 01:04:45
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Asherian Command wrote: IT doesn't help the cause. Otherwise it is just a skin.But men and women react differently to situations. You can deny that reasoning all you want, but there is a difference. And that should be shown.
“I am sexist and games should be sexist too otherwise they are not helping my cause” .
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Melissia wrote: Shank certainly feels like he was supposed to be a gangbanger though. Or at least that's what the visual style and the name of the game indicated to me when I played it.
What?
The name is referring to his main weapon as far as I can tell, and the visual style only screams “super though action hero” to me. Did I miss something?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/05 01:05:25
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2014/10/05 01:06:32
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
"Women should only ever be added in when you have a reason for them to be a woman."
That's what you said. That's what you're still saying-- that men don't have to justify their existence, but women do. And that if a woman is in the game, the game must talk about what you consider "womens issues", because as we all know, a female soldier doesn't worry about killing the enemy while on the job, no, she worries about being a mother. Seriously, what the hell?
To put it bluntly, you're explicitly advocating for MORE sexism in video games, not less.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/10/05 01:08:36
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2014/10/05 01:09:34
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on that one, Asherian. I think it's just to prescriptive for games and, personally, feels uncomfortable to me. I sort of get what you're saying, I mean you do have the separate athletic events in the real world after all, and for good reason. But this isn't the Olympics.
2014/10/05 01:11:26
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
You know this is kind of a place were I think I agree with Asherian Command Gender can inform our perceptions of a character and well I don't believe you need a good reason to make a character female or male. (Characters get all kinds of traits for all kinds of silly reasons.) That choice will have an effect on how they are perceived by your audience. It's important to be away of that.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/05 01:20:34
2014/10/05 01:17:06
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
"Women should only ever be added in when you have a reason for them to be a woman."
That's what you said. That's what you're still saying-- that men don't have to justify their existence, but women do. And that if a woman is in the game, the game must talk about what you consider "womens issues", because as we all know, a female soldier doesn't worry about killing the enemy while on the job, no, she worries about being a mother. Seriously, what the hell?
To put it bluntly, you're explicitly advocating for MORE sexism in video games, not less.
No I am saying there should be a small details that are different. Not completely different .
And that is not what I am saying you can play a woman and the entire game be about male issues. You can choose whatever character, whatever gender for any game, as long as the character has meaningful backstory and reason to exist in that setting. But there should be a small difference between how she acts and her male counterpart.
And that is not what I am saying. Again. I said there is a small difference between men and women.
I would like to say that men and women are completely the same, but I can't ignore biology. I can't say that women are exactly the same as men. Because that type of ideal is in someway sexist to someone, I am taking the neutral stance of saying that there are small differences, but not that big of a difference.
A woman can be a badass, and can be a warrior. I am not denying that. So stop twisting my words to fit your narrative of me.
It is kind of sickening.
“I am sexist and games should be sexist too otherwise they are not helping my cause
Do you really want me to bring out the whats the difference between men and women quote from scientists?
There are differences, and it is fine to say yes there are differences. And they have reasons for it.
But saying both genders are exactly the same is a misjudgement and false.
A game can say that. IT can say yes there are differences. And it can have subtle differences.
A woman in a game might put more effort in certain situations and sound different when a situation comes up, but a male might tried to hide it. You can use this to your advantage. One of the reasons why everyone thinks that femshepherd is stronger is because women are better at emoting and expressing. They are naturally better talkers. And are naturally prone to being more intelligent in this way. Men do not have this luxury.
Those are the differences I am talking about.
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
2014/10/05 01:17:28
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Yes, gender is one of many things that can inform how a person acts. It's not the only thing, however, and acting like it has to be is deeply ignorant. It's an attitude that says men are defined by what they do, women are defined by being women.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Asherian Command wrote: And that is not what I am saying you can play a woman and the entire game be about male issues.
Are you trying to say anything that's not about motherhood is "male issues"?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/05 01:18:31
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2014/10/05 01:19:59
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
nomotog wrote: You know this is kind of a place were I think I agree with Asherian Command Gender can inform our perceptions of a character and well I don't believe you need a good reason to make a character female or female. (Characters get all kinds of traits for all kinds of silly reasons.) That choice will have an effect on how they are perceived by your audience. It's important to be away of that.
I have said that constantly thank you. -.-
I think there needs to be a reason why you the designer filled that role as a woman. If you show why through gameplay and character, why that character could of been anything then yes. If you want to have a female character for the sake of having a female character is good, but what is bad is if you want to cater to a female audience. I find that despicable you are just pandering and I don't like pandering, it is fine to pander to an audience as long as you are doing it to teach a point to give out a point. That is fine, but not it is not fine if you are trying to actively get people to empty their wallets for you because they believe in a certain thing.
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
2014/10/05 01:22:16
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Asherian Command wrote: I think there needs to be a reason why you the designer filled that role as a woman.
But not for a male character.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2014/10/05 01:29:21
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
I think what's trying to be suggested is, shouldn't there also be a case of: "there needs to be a reason why you, the designer, filled that role with a man."
What I'm trying to suggest, personally, is that there's a whole bunch of situations where gender really does not matter that much when casting a character. - An action hero is an Action Hero, not a 'Male Action Hero' nor a 'Female Action Hero' in my view.
2014/10/05 01:29:35
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Melissia wrote: Yes, gender is one of many things that can inform how a person acts. It's not the only thing, however, and acting like it has to be is deeply ignorant. It's an attitude that says men are defined by what they do, women are defined by being women.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Asherian Command wrote: And that is not what I am saying you can play a woman and the entire game be about male issues.
Are you trying to say anything that's not about motherhood is "male issues"?
I agree with the first bit.
But you can have a woman deal with other issues its fine the creator can do whatever the hell they want to do it is their creator tool. But they need to remember the differences between gender. You would see a difference between a female character and a male character, even if they had the same personality. They would act differently. Infact they would act like two different people. That is pyschology its called gender roles. We are given them at an early age. Those are subtle differences.
You can have any reason to have a character. This is where I also say that you need to have a reason as to why the creator of the game decided to go this path instead of this other path. Just saying just because is not good enough. I can't just haave my character have blonde hair. Why would this character have blonde hair? Why is that significant to put on my character? AS to would having the gender be on my character. Why is my main character male? Because you can identify with him better? Or because think male characters are easy to write because you are a dude? That is the thought process I have behind thinking reasoning behind why your character is .....
It needs to have meaning behind it, or else your entire game is meaningless and the message is not as well crafted, because you can't pick someones hair blue just because. Everything that is selected must have reasons to behind it.
It must be a good reason or else your message that you are trying to create will falter and not be as strong. This is behind the character as metaphor. ITs not saying that a blonde hair or a blue haired person would tell the story better but the writer needs to understand that they are trying to write for an audience and trying to balance a setting, they need to make a character that will cater to an audience and make sense in the environment. Like you can't have a military badass from call of duty be in a horror game with a massive gun, it destroys the horror setting. You can make them weird and whatever but in certain settings it wouldn't make entirely any sense. It sort of disconnects the player if your character has blue eyes, and is a tap dancer in a horror setting. (Well you could, but damn would that be hard to pull off and be it serious)
I am not saying you can't, you can, you can do it without reasoning, as everyone here should know. I fething hate absolute wording, and if I do. My apologies. But there are some instances where genders can assume the role better than the other gender. As they are far easier to write. That is fine.
Asherian Command wrote: I think there needs to be a reason why you the designer filled that role as a woman.
But not for a male character.
No it can be for a man as well.
Men and woman can fufill any role. But only lazy writers actually rely on stereotypes. Which can be interpreted as sexist. Ill-researched and not well thought out types of characters are the ones that are sexist and are racist.
Just because you research your character and both genders and you actually have qualities of what makes a woman a woman, is not sexist. That means you researched and gave the subject meaning to it. You were able to make a blank slate more than a blank slate, you shaped it into a character.
A designer needs to have a reason as to why they filled that role with what.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Compel wrote: I think what's trying to be suggested is, shouldn't there also be a case of: "there needs to be a reason why you, the designer, filled that role with a man."
What I'm trying to suggest, personally, is that there's a whole bunch of situations where gender really does not matter that much when casting a character. - An action hero is an Action Hero, not a 'Male Action Hero' nor a 'Female Action Hero' in my view.
I agree. I am not suggesting a designer needs to have a reason because a woman is a woman in this game. It should have a reasoning to the designer. As to why they choose this gender over the other. Its more of a why have this when you can have this.
It needs to have meaning or the meaning is lost.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2014/10/05 12:33:34
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
2014/10/05 01:35:15
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Asherian Command wrote: I think there needs to be a reason why you the designer filled that role as a woman.
But not for a male character.
No it can be for a man as well.
It's taken you sixty eight pages to say that writers need a reason for characters to be male. I don't believe for an instant that you honestly think that, especially after you've consistently thrown excuses out for devs who mostly write male characters in the past anyway.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2014/10/05 01:38:01
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
This obsessive need to have every small detail of a person be massively significant just leads to terrible writing.
Ehh wrong.
Captain Walker was originally a full set of hair. The reason why they gave him blue eyes, and made him white was because it was to reflect the average game.
James Suntherland was shown to blonde. This was completely purposeful.
The best characters in my opinion everything is selected for a damn good reason.
Silent Hill 2 the reason why James Suntherland is shown to be aryan looking is because
Its not obessive as long as you write it with purpose.
t's taken you sixty eight pages to say that writers need a reason for characters to be male. I don't believe for an instant that you honestly think that, especially after you've consistently thrown excuses out for devs who mostly write male characters in the past anyway.
You can believe whatever you want >.>
Also I didn't make that statement till page 20 or so.
And I always felt like that. The fact you think I am sexist is quite insulting to say the least, but I won't take it as an insult because I am used to people thinking I am sexist because I think people who white knight for women are sexist.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2014/10/05 01:43:31
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
2014/10/05 01:42:53
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Asherian Command wrote: Captain Walker was originally a full set of hair. The reason why they gave him blue eyes, and made him white was because it was to reflect the average game.
Which is crappy writing.
Asherian Command wrote: James Suntherland was shown to blonde. This was completely purposeful.
There is nothing about James Sutherland that would have changed if his hair color was black or brown. In fact, his hair was really closer to a light brown than a blonde anyway.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2014/10/05 01:54:42
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Asherian Command wrote: Captain Walker was originally a full set of hair. The reason why they gave him blue eyes, and made him white was because it was to reflect the average game.
Which is crappy writing.
Asherian Command wrote: James Suntherland was shown to blonde. This was completely purposeful.
There is nothing about James Sutherland that would have changed if his hair color was black or brown. In fact, his hair was really closer to a light brown than a blonde anyway.
He is dirty blonde like me
But this is where I paths diverge on liking particular writing styles over others.
Its more of a matter of taste and not what is actually better or more effect. As either style has its own merits in writing.
The reason why they made him like that is because of the writers wanting to show something hidden and evil. When james suntherland looks in the mirror all he can see is (Bleeps are for spoilers)
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/10/05 01:58:20
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
2014/10/05 06:29:46
Subject: Re:What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
LordofHats wrote: A damsel in distress appearing in a single work isn't necessarily sexist unless we take the absurd position that anyone who ever puts a woman in a position of helplessness is a sexist prick (silly idea).
However if you take 500 works, all by different authors/creators, and say, 425 of them have a damsel in distress, then there might be something of a problem.
But 500 out of how many? And is that an issue of sexism in the industry, or laziness?
Melissia wrote: If a group of writers only added black characters as rappers, gangbangers, and slaves and none of them were willing to write about black people in any other fashion, their works might not individually be racist (though there probably would be examples of racism in the works), but collectively, their works would reek of latent racism.
Again, would that be an issue of racism, or laziness in overly relying on tropes? Because how would you change that, if you believed that interpretation of the situation
nomotog wrote: I wonder if it's off topic to try and think of the last time I played a game with a black man that wasn't a rapper gang member or slave. All I have is gears of war. Most examples I can think of are gang members.
Sazh in Final Fantasy 13-2. Still my tied favourite character (with Fang)
(apologies if I'm re-hashing anything from earlier in this thread. I'm assuming at 68 pages this might be old ground)
It's just an example (though it is large enough to be taken as a valid statistical sample).
And is that an issue of sexism in the industry, or laziness?
You say that like it can't be both. Lazy writers are more prone than any other to fall back on stereotypes. All writers tend to fall into them to some degree, especially when improvising.
It's just an example (though it is large enough to be taken as a valid statistical sample).
I'm honestly curious if someone has crunched the numbers. Has anyone analyzed the frequency of the Damsel in Distress trope over the last few years, to see % use and growth/decline?
I am looking at crunching some numbers number, but I am looking a my first snag. You can't look every game. It's a lot of games, so I am thinking what ones do you look at. My first thought is to simply look at the highest grossing games. The funny thing is that the highest grossing games are not the games you normally think of when someone says video game. Like Kinect adventures is one of the higher sold games for Xbox. Another Idea I have is to just look at the top ten lists put out by game web pages. Finally we could just pick a random selection if you wanted to be scientific.
2014/10/05 11:03:22
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Not entirely true. Maternal Instinct is significantally stronger in women than in men, but it does exist among men as well. Men, in general, have lesser need of it because men can "activate" adrenaline surges far easier than women and thus do not need a more specific trigger.
Just one slight remark in general: you certainly deserve credit for still discussing with Melissia, but keep one thing in mind: you two will never come to any agreement because you come from a very different point of view. Melissia cannot rationally discuss the topic at hand because she is extremely emotionally involved in it. This isn't a bad thing per se, and not meant to be as such, everyone got such topics. The problem, however, is that you come from a more rational point of view and bring up things like sexual dimorphism which exists just as gravity does. It's a scientific fact, however, that doesn't go along with people who come from a solely emotional point of view. What you two have been doing for the entirety of all threads and posts on this topic is you throwing arguments against a wall "nu-uh". And while this certainly is entertaining to watch, it's like trying to grow crop on salted ground
Each of you represents a polar opposite and there will never, ever be a compromise of any sort. Oxayotl is different. Still emotionally involved, but listens to points and is open to any counter-argument.
Anyway, back to the thread. Just wanted to get that off my chest.
I think there needs to be a reason why you the designer filled that role as a woman.
...and a man. Every writer makes that decision and in video games, it mostly is a rational marketing decision. Call of Duty game with a female protagonist? Stupid. You'd alienate a huge part of your customers. Nancy Drew game with a male protagonist? Drown in a sexist poo-storm on Twitter.
Every writer has a reason for why a certain character is male or female. Denying this means not understanding it.
It's just an example (though it is large enough to be taken as a valid statistical sample).
I'm honestly curious if someone has crunched the numbers. Has anyone analyzed the frequency of the Damsel in Distress trope over the last few years, to see % use and growth/decline?
Because if someone hasn't, I will.
Pretty sure nobody has. The problem is that you would have to seperate the findings by genre and then would need to define the genres etc. It's a lot of work. But if you want to do it, by all means, do so, I'd be interested in it
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/10/05 11:03:45
VorpalBunny74 wrote: Again, would that be an issue of racism, or laziness in overly relying on tropes?
Racism or sexism inspired by laziness is still racism or sexism.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2014/10/05 12:13:55
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
nomotog wrote: I am looking at crunching some numbers number, but I am looking a my first snag. You can't look every game. It's a lot of games, so I am thinking what ones do you look at. My first thought is to simply look at the highest grossing games. The funny thing is that the highest grossing games are not the games you normally think of when someone says video game. Like Kinect adventures is one of the higher sold games for Xbox. Another Idea I have is to just look at the top ten lists put out by game web pages. Finally we could just pick a random selection if you wanted to be scientific.
Woah now, who said anything about being scientific?
I was just going to grab the games released from 2010-2013, flag if they include a kidnapped character that needs to be rescued as part of the plot, keep it simple.
I'll need help though so I'll start a new thread once the groundwork has been laid.
VorpalBunny74 wrote: Again, would that be an issue of racism, or laziness in overly relying on tropes?
Racism or sexism inspired by laziness is still racism or sexism.
What if the writers don't know any black people, and their only frame of reference is crappy tropes? Would it be best in that situation to just not include any (leaving it to other writers) and perpetuate a lack of black characters? Bearing in mind Sturgeon's law
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/05 12:21:51
...and a man. Every writer makes that decision and in video games, it mostly is a rational marketing decision. Call of Duty game with a female protagonist? Stupid. You'd alienate a huge part of your customers. Nancy Drew game with a male protagonist? Drown in a sexist poo-storm on Twitter.
Every writer has a reason for why a certain character is male or female. Denying this means not understanding it.
Whoops I think I should change that, meant to say both male and female.
But yes I can see your point.
Not entirely true. Maternal Instinct is significantally stronger in women than in men, but it does exist among men as well. Men, in general, have lesser need of it because men can "activate" adrenaline surges far easier than women and thus do not need a more specific trigger.
Just one slight remark in general: you certainly deserve credit for still discussing with Melissia, but keep one thing in mind: you two will never come to any agreement because you come from a very different point of view. Melissia cannot rationally discuss the topic at hand because she is extremely emotionally involved in it. This isn't a bad thing per se, and not meant to be as such, everyone got such topics. The problem, however, is that you come from a more rational point of view and bring up things like sexual dimorphism which exists just as gravity does. It's a scientific fact, however, that doesn't go along with people who come from a solely emotional point of view. What you two have been doing for the entirety of all threads and posts on this topic is you throwing arguments against a wall "nu-uh". And while this certainly is entertaining to watch, it's like trying to grow crop on salted ground
Each of you represents a polar opposite and there will never, ever be a compromise of any sort. Oxayotl is different. Still emotionally involved, but listens to points and is open to any counter-argument.
Anyway, back to the thread. Just wanted to get that off my chest.
Hmm. interesting.
I agree with the maternal instinict. Though because from my encounters with most men, they seem to avoid babies like the plague. So thats where I got my hypothesis/idea from. Real life experiences and then applying them to the discussion, Looks like a generalization on my part on men. I think that makes me sexist in someway O.o
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/05 12:36:22
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
2014/10/05 12:52:52
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
...and a man. Every writer makes that decision and in video games, it mostly is a rational marketing decision. Call of Duty game with a female protagonist? Stupid. You'd alienate a huge part of your customers. Nancy Drew game with a male protagonist? Drown in a sexist poo-storm on Twitter.
Every writer has a reason for why a certain character is male or female. Denying this means not understanding it.
Whoops I think I should change that, meant to say both male and female.
But yes I can see your point.
Not entirely true. Maternal Instinct is significantally stronger in women than in men, but it does exist among men as well. Men, in general, have lesser need of it because men can "activate" adrenaline surges far easier than women and thus do not need a more specific trigger.
Just one slight remark in general: you certainly deserve credit for still discussing with Melissia, but keep one thing in mind: you two will never come to any agreement because you come from a very different point of view. Melissia cannot rationally discuss the topic at hand because she is extremely emotionally involved in it. This isn't a bad thing per se, and not meant to be as such, everyone got such topics. The problem, however, is that you come from a more rational point of view and bring up things like sexual dimorphism which exists just as gravity does. It's a scientific fact, however, that doesn't go along with people who come from a solely emotional point of view. What you two have been doing for the entirety of all threads and posts on this topic is you throwing arguments against a wall "nu-uh". And while this certainly is entertaining to watch, it's like trying to grow crop on salted ground
Each of you represents a polar opposite and there will never, ever be a compromise of any sort. Oxayotl is different. Still emotionally involved, but listens to points and is open to any counter-argument.
Anyway, back to the thread. Just wanted to get that off my chest.
Hmm. interesting.
I agree with the maternal instinict. Though because from my encounters with most men, they seem to avoid babies like the plague. So thats where I got my hypothesis/idea from. Real life experiences and then applying them to the discussion, Looks like a generalization on my part on men. I think that makes me sexist in someway O.o
Technically men have "paternal" instinct, which is similar. Hence the stories of the father being defensive of his daughter...or this
...and a man. Every writer makes that decision and in video games, it mostly is a rational marketing decision. Call of Duty game with a female protagonist? Stupid. You'd alienate a huge part of your customers. Nancy Drew game with a male protagonist? Drown in a sexist poo-storm on Twitter.
Every writer has a reason for why a certain character is male or female. Denying this means not understanding it.
Whoops I think I should change that, meant to say both male and female.
But yes I can see your point.
Not entirely true. Maternal Instinct is significantally stronger in women than in men, but it does exist among men as well. Men, in general, have lesser need of it because men can "activate" adrenaline surges far easier than women and thus do not need a more specific trigger.
Just one slight remark in general: you certainly deserve credit for still discussing with Melissia, but keep one thing in mind: you two will never come to any agreement because you come from a very different point of view. Melissia cannot rationally discuss the topic at hand because she is extremely emotionally involved in it. This isn't a bad thing per se, and not meant to be as such, everyone got such topics. The problem, however, is that you come from a more rational point of view and bring up things like sexual dimorphism which exists just as gravity does. It's a scientific fact, however, that doesn't go along with people who come from a solely emotional point of view. What you two have been doing for the entirety of all threads and posts on this topic is you throwing arguments against a wall "nu-uh". And while this certainly is entertaining to watch, it's like trying to grow crop on salted ground
Each of you represents a polar opposite and there will never, ever be a compromise of any sort. Oxayotl is different. Still emotionally involved, but listens to points and is open to any counter-argument.
Anyway, back to the thread. Just wanted to get that off my chest.
Hmm. interesting.
I agree with the maternal instinict. Though because from my encounters with most men, they seem to avoid babies like the plague. So thats where I got my hypothesis/idea from. Real life experiences and then applying them to the discussion, Looks like a generalization on my part on men. I think that makes me sexist in someway O.o
Technically men have "paternal" instinct, which is similar.
Hence the stories of the father being defensive of his daughter...or this
VorpalBunny74 wrote: What if the writers don't know any black people, and their only frame of reference is crappy tropes? Would it be best in that situation to just not include any (leaving it to other writers) and perpetuate a lack of black characters? Bearing in mind Sturgeon's law
A good writer will endeavor to write as best they can in the minds of the characters they create. A good character is still a good character regardless of race or gender.
I'm actually in a position where I am writing a deliberately diverse ensemble cast for a video game project and it's pretty difficult. The key is to make good characters first. Do that, and barring specific issues you could essentially assign race and gender by rolling a die. Thankfully, the genre I'm working in is very tolerant of melodrama, as is the video game market overall, perhaps a little too tolerant.
Now, as mentioned, there are issues specific to race and gender. However, if you even have to wonder if you're able to properly write character issues pertaining to race and gender, then either you shouldn't even try, or you do the due diligence and hard work it takes to properly write such a character, without falling back on tired tropes. If you are going to use tropes, then do your job as a writer and actually break those tropes in an interesting way. That's what turns a trope into an archetype.
I've erred on the side on mostly avoiding those issues and presenting positive examples and nods. But, I did have a long dark idea session where I considered putting in a segment where the player might have to deal with some cyber harassment as a female character, or help a companion deal with it.
Haven't followed the rest of this thread though, kind of too busy with stuff to go through 68 pages of heated gamer debate.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/05 14:26:59
VorpalBunny74 wrote: What if the writers don't know any black people, and their only frame of reference is crappy tropes? Would it be best in that situation to just not include any (leaving it to other writers) and perpetuate a lack of black characters? Bearing in mind Sturgeon's law
A good writer will endeavor to write as best they can in the minds of the characters they create. A good character is still a good character regardless of race or gender.
I'm actually in a position where I am writing a deliberately diverse ensemble cast for a video game project and it's pretty difficult. The key is to make good characters first. Do that, and barring specific issues you could essentially assign race and gender by rolling a die. Thankfully, the genre I'm working in is very tolerant of melodrama, as is the video game market overall, perhaps a little too tolerant.
Now, as mentioned, there are issues specific to race and gender. However, if you even have to wonder if you're able to properly write character issues pertaining to race and gender, then either you shouldn't even try, or you do the due diligence and hard work it takes to properly write such a character, without falling back on tired tropes. If you are going to use tropes, then do your job as a writer and actually break those tropes in an interesting way. That's what turns a trope into an archetype.
I've erred on the side on mostly avoiding those issues and presenting positive examples and nods. But, I did have a long dark idea session where I considered putting in a segment where the player might have to deal with some cyber harassment as a female character, or help a companion deal with it.
Haven't followed the rest of this thread though, kind of too busy with stuff to go through 68 pages of heated gamer debate.
You really didn't miss anything just game designer vs gamers.
Otherwise I completely agree. And good on ya. Its hard to write in the perspective that you are not used to.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/05 15:27:15
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
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~4100
~1660
