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Bharring wrote:
You *will* find other uses for the Serpent in your game, aside from just transporting the WG. But the Serpent is less flexible/reliable delivery than WWP. It's a tradeoff.

Wraithguard want to hit big many-W models - otherwise, they're a waste. Guardians do best against things that tend to be 1W models - as they do 1W per failed save. They complement eachother well, but you're looking for very different targets. Also, the things you want to keep your Guardians away from (things with lots of attacks/shots) tend to be different from the things you wnat to keep your Wraithguard away from (things with fewer but much stronger attacks/shots).

I love my Serpent. I think either Guardians or Wraithguard will do fine inside it.

So I have 10 Guardians, 5 Dire Avengers, and 5 Wraithguard, but only 1 Wave Serpent. The Dire Avengers don't need a transport, but could certainly take advantage of one. The guardians can take a transport or I can take the heavy weapon platform (unless that can embark, too?). I'd like to get another 10 Guardians and deep strike them through the Webway, but until that happens they are a valid option for the Serpent. I also have the Wraithguard who can embark on the Serpent or deep strike through the webway. Of course, I can always deep strike them both with the flexibility to put them near each other or on opposite flanks. The Serpent is part of the list regardless of who it transports. But who would gain the most out of deep striking and who would gain the most from the Wave Serpent? Are either unit worth 1 CP to deep strike and/or is it worth 3 CP to deep strike them both?

Personally I'd transport the wraithguard. You want them to hit high value targets. The serpent makes sure they get in range, while your opponent could deny you a deep strike position within 12" of their target. 20 guardians are more versatile in what they can target, so I'd rather deep strike them.

Until you get more guardians I'd recommend you try it the other way around; put the guardians in the serpent and see how deep striking the wraithguard works out for you (it could be really effective).

 Kharneth wrote:

 Karhedron wrote:

Wraithlords and War Walkers are decent if used correctly.

Can you elaborate on your final statement regarding Wraithlords and War Walkers?

I find a lot depends on loadout. Wraithlords have decent shooting but also good melee. If you only use them as a static firing platform, you will not get the best out of them. For this reason, I like my Wraithlords to be mobile. My favourite build for them is 2 Shurican Cannons and a Glaive (you can either take catapults or flamers on the fists depending on points). This way they can Advance each turn and still fire which makes them quite mobile (they are fast enough to form a second way, just behind your Wave Serpents). The Glaive allows them to hit pretty hard in close combat.

With War walkers, the opposite is true. I find it is best to double up on one kind of heavy weapon (probably Brightlances for dedicated anti-tank), run them in a squadron and keep a Farseer nearby to cast Guide on them (they are one of the best units in the game for this Psychic power). I normally use their ability to come on from Reserves to dodge any Turn 1 shooting from your enemy and then appear in a good firing position where they can hunker down for the rest of the game and bring down the fire.

Hey guys new to 8th and back in the hobby after 5 years out, decided to do a Biel tan splinter host and so far have acquired about enough to field 1k points I just need to buy 6 rangers and another war walker ton complete this list.


++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Aeldari - Craftworlds) [58 PL, 1000pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Craftworld Attribute: Biel-Tan: Swordwind

+ HQ +

Farseer [6 PL, 110pts]: Shuriken Pistol, Witchblade

+ Troops +

Dire Avengers [6 PL, 136pts]
. 10x Dire Avenger: 10x Avenger Shuriken Catapult
. Dire Avenger Exarch: Two Avenger Shuriken Catapults

Guardian Defenders [5 PL, 95pts]: 10x Guardian Defender
. Guardian Heavy Weapons Platform: Shuriken Cannon

Rangers [6 PL, 72pts]: 6x Ranger

+ Elites +

Wraithblades [10 PL, 175pts]: Ghostswords, 5x Wraithblade

+ Heavy Support +

War Walkers [4 PL, 70pts]
. War Walker: Shuriken Cannon, Shuriken Cannon

War Walkers [4 PL, 70pts]
. War Walker: Shuriken Cannon, Shuriken Cannon

Wraithlord [8 PL, 123pts]: Bright Lance, Shuriken Catapult, Shuriken Catapult

+ Dedicated Transport +

Wave Serpent [9 PL, 149pts]: Spirit Stones, Twin Shuriken Cannon, Twin Shuriken Catapult, Vectored Engines

++ Total: [58 PL, 1000pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe

The idea is for the rangers to sit back and pop shots at characters and hold back deep objective while the guardians and avengers push forward with the wraith lord, allowing the wave serpent to swoop in and get the wraith blades into combat. The war walkers will use their ability to deploy on a flank to come in late and support the advance.

I'm not sure how many games is even get in at 1k points bit it's just a starting list for me really with the models I have so far, any thoughts??

You're 1 hq short for a battalion I'm afraid.


Disclaimer: I'm a casual player

I think you're a bit light on anti-tank; I'd recommend trying to free up 60 points somewhere to put a second lance on the lord and to upgrade the walkers to lances too. If it were me I'd free up those points by dropping a ranger, 2-3 avengers and the upgrades on the serpent. At 1k your opponent should be hard-pressed to destroy even a bare serpent.

Yes. Also, consider switching the Lance onto a war Walker and putting the cannons on the wraith lord. He wants to be moved up anyway.

Consider a spiritseer if you can afford him. Gets you a battalion and there are many useful powers.

I think almost anything 10 dire avengers can do, 5 can do nearly as well. Or 2x5. Saves you some points for the above suggestions.

Have you put picked a craft world? At this point in your list building I'd give them a look to see of it informs your list building

Thanks for the advice guys yeah I didn't realise you needed 2 hq for a battalion! I'm used to 2 troops and a hq being the starting point. I know dire avengers aren't exactly op but they are my favourite aspect warriors so having 10 is a stylistic choice if anything.

Quick question I haven't actually played 8th yet but can only troops claim objectives?? The last time I played was 6th Ed

Objectives can be claimed by any model that isn't a flier, the person with the most models in range controls it. However if any of the models are troops the team with troops on it claims it. If both players have troops on the objective it reverts back to most models.

I have lots of Dire Avengers. Love them. I would recommend 2x5 instead of 10 and give to all your exarchs two Avenger Shuriken Catapults.

If you are a casual player, Asurmen works well with a few Dire Avengers units around him. They all get a 4++ and he is deceptively strong in melee. Just be sure to have a Doom Farseer nearby, shuriken and Asurmens sword benefit a lot from Doom.

Ah ok, what's with the 5 man squads now? Everyone seems to take 5 man squads in every army like marines etc. 5 men for me seems pitiful as you lose one or two they lose allot of effectiveness.

You get 2 captains for free instead of 1 if you do 2x5. For the avengers this is an extra wound and it gives a 4++ to 2 extra wounds. It also allows you to get the firepower of an extra avenger for only 4 points. Of course if you decide to take a shimmershield (I don't recommend this) it is more effective on squads of 10.

Hi everyone, I was just wondering if the falcon was still regarded as a poor tank and if so why?
To me the pulse laser is a great weapon and you can only get it on the falcon, I'm planning to run a pair of falcons with a missile launcher and the two catapults for 155 pts each with a pair of 5 man Dark reapers and Maugan Ra as my back line. The small transport capacity should work great if the Reapers get threatened and need to get out of dodge or need a longer range redeployment. I run with the missile launchers so they have more flexibility than a bright lance plus that way they both have 48 inch range so that matches up well.
I know the serpent is more durable and the fire prism can do the higher strength shot option but a serpent with twin missile launchers is 162 pts, 152 with bright lances but I prefer the flexibility of the missile launchers, whilst a fire prism is 160 pts.
I guess part of this comes down to the mathammer of the pulse laser vs the bright lance, has anyone done this?

kingheff wrote:
Hi everyone, I was just wondering if the falcon was still regarded as a poor tank and if so why?
To me the pulse laser is a great weapon and you can only get it on the falcon, I'm planning to run a pair of falcons with a missile launcher and the two catapults for 155 pts each with a pair of 5 man Dark reapers and Maugan Ra as my back line. The small transport capacity should work great if the Reapers get threatened and need to get out of dodge or need a longer range redeployment. I run with the missile launchers so they have more flexibility than a bright lance plus that way they both have 48 inch range so that matches up well.
I know the serpent is more durable and the fire prism can do the higher strength shot option but a serpent with twin missile launchers is 162 pts, 152 with bright lances but I prefer the flexibility of the missile launchers, whilst a fire prism is 160 pts.
I guess part of this comes down to the mathammer of the pulse laser vs the bright lance, has anyone done this?

The falcon is a usable tank in this edition but depending on the use generally a serpent or prism would be better. BTW pulse laser is also available on crimson hunters.
From what you have said it sounds like you are planning on running 2x Maugan Ra which isn't possible as he is a named character. You could run an index autarch with reaper launcher though, he still gives rerolls of 1 and can have the character sniping warlord trait.
If you are planning on running just 1 HQ with them and having them close together a serpent could be better as you only need 1 to transport all the models.
If you are looking for flexibility you can't really beat the fire prism, and if you run 2 and link them you can put down a vehicle per turn on average.
FWIW I rarely find my reapers need to run away from something faster than their standard movement and if you put them in a falcon to run them away you not only lose the reapers shots that turn but you compromise the shooting of the falcon too.
If you want them in a transport at the start I would go for a serpent with 3 shuriken cannons so it can move and shoot without penalty.


Mathhammer Vs T7 3+ vehicles:

Falcon with BL: 3.776 damage
Falcon with AML: 3.259 damage
Serpent with Twin BL: 3.108 damage
Serpent with twin AML: 2.074 damage
Prism (focussed): 3.556 damage
Prism (focussed + linked): 6.32 damage

None of these include damage from the chin guns (assumed to be the same for all).

kingheff wrote:
Hi everyone, I was just wondering if the falcon was still regarded as a poor tank and if so why?
To me the pulse laser is a great weapon and you can only get it on the falcon, I'm planning to run a pair of falcons with a missile launcher and the two catapults for 155 pts each with a pair of 5 man Dark reapers and Maugan Ra as my back line. The small transport capacity should work great if the Reapers get threatened and need to get out of dodge or need a longer range redeployment. I run with the missile launchers so they have more flexibility than a bright lance plus that way they both have 48 inch range so that matches up well.
I know the serpent is more durable and the fire prism can do the higher strength shot option but a serpent with twin missile launchers is 162 pts, 152 with bright lances but I prefer the flexibility of the missile launchers, whilst a fire prism is 160 pts.
I guess part of this comes down to the mathammer of the pulse laser vs the bright lance, has anyone done this?

For a tiny difference in points youre getting a large increase in either firepower or durability/capacity if you take the Fire Prism/Wave Serpent.

Its not a 'poor choice' by the current standards of the game, just falls a little bit short of the other tank options in the codex, so you don't see it in optimised lists for competitive games.

Why is 2x5 Dire Avengers better than 1x10?

With two units you'll have 12 wounds and 12 guns vs the other units' 11 wounds and 11 guns, but the 10-man unit is much easier to buff. Do people not use any spells on dire avengers? I have 1 exarch and 4 dire avengers and my buddy just gave me 5 more but idk if I should turn one of them into an exarch or keep them as a unit of 10.

 Kharneth wrote:
Why is 2x5 Dire Avengers better than 1x10?

With two units you'll have 12 wounds and 12 guns vs the other units' 11 wounds and 11 guns, but the 10-man unit is much easier to buff. Do people not use any spells on dire avengers? I have 1 exarch and 4 dire avengers and my buddy just gave me 5 more but idk if I should turn one of them into an exarch or keep them as a unit of 10.

I find there are generally better units to buff than avengers, if I am going to use a spell with them most of the time it would be doom and that targets the enemy squad anyway.

Exactly. Their best buff is Doom. Any other buff there is always a better unit to cast it on. That 4++, 2w exarch can make a huge survivability difference. And you have more guns.

 roflmajog wrote:

kingheff wrote:
Hi everyone, I was just wondering if the falcon was still regarded as a poor tank and if so why?
To me the pulse laser is a great weapon and you can only get it on the falcon, I'm planning to run a pair of falcons with a missile launcher and the two catapults for 155 pts each with a pair of 5 man Dark reapers and Maugan Ra as my back line. The small transport capacity should work great if the Reapers get threatened and need to get out of dodge or need a longer range redeployment. I run with the missile launchers so they have more flexibility than a bright lance plus that way they both have 48 inch range so that matches up well.
I know the serpent is more durable and the fire prism can do the higher strength shot option but a serpent with twin missile launchers is 162 pts, 152 with bright lances but I prefer the flexibility of the missile launchers, whilst a fire prism is 160 pts.
I guess part of this comes down to the mathammer of the pulse laser vs the bright lance, has anyone done this?

The falcon is a usable tank in this edition but depending on the use generally a serpent or prism would be better. BTW pulse laser is also available on crimson hunters.
From what you have said it sounds like you are planning on running 2x Maugan Ra which isn't possible as he is a named character. You could run an index autarch with reaper launcher though, he still gives rerolls of 1 and can have the character sniping warlord trait.
If you are planning on running just 1 HQ with them and having them close together a serpent could be better as you only need 1 to transport all the models.
If you are looking for flexibility you can't really beat the fire prism, and if you run 2 and link them you can put down a vehicle per turn on average.
FWIW I rarely find my reapers need to run away from something faster than their standard movement and if you put them in a falcon to run them away you not only lose the reapers shots that turn but you compromise the shooting of the falcon too.
If you want them in a transport at the start I would go for a serpent with 3 shuriken cannons so it can move and shoot without penalty.


Mathhammer Vs T7 3+ vehicles:

Falcon with BL: 3.776 damage
Falcon with AML: 3.259 damage
Serpent with Twin BL: 3.108 damage
Serpent with twin AML: 2.074 damage
Prism (focussed): 3.556 damage
Prism (focussed + linked): 6.32 damage

None of these include damage from the chin guns (assumed to be the same for all).

Thanks for the mathhammer
I was referring to two units of reapers supported by a single Maugan Ra, sorry if that wasn't clear, obviously it depends on terrain but I'd try to keep both units in range of his buff. I prefer to keep to the codex since I'm not a super competitive player, the sniping autach with missiles is a sweet option though. I do use a triple cannon serpent but that transports my wraithblades. As an assault transport the serpent has it beaten all ends up.
The ability to transport is more of an emergency thing so the serpent's extra capacity wouldn't be too important, the reapers would probably have taken a few losses before I'd want to move them!
Looks like the maths backs up the damage output of the pulse laser, the difference between a pulse laser and lance compared to twin lances is pretty decent. Plus the two shot flat three damage is nice for things like hive guard and primaris.
I just thought it was strange how often I've seen the falcon almost dismissed out of hand when the pulse laser is such a nice weapon. It's not got the specialisation of the other two but its flexibility is nice.
I assume the Prism (non-linked) is for a stationary, two shot prism?

kingheff wrote:
strange how often I've seen the falcon almost dismissed out of hand when the pulse laser is such a nice weapon.

Its because the Pulse Laser, as mentioned, also comes on the Crimson Hunter/Hunter Exarch. Its a better platform for it, especially the CHE.

A CHE with Pulse Laser and Bright Lances does 6.889 to T7 3+.
A CHE with Pulse Laser and Starcannons does 4.784 to T7 3+.

That's including the CHE getting to re-rolls 1's to hit natively while also suffering the -1 to hit for always moving.

If what they shoot at also has the FLY keyword, then they are re-rolling all rolls to wound as well which is not included.

This, in-addition to natively having a -1 to be hit in return.

Its just an all around better platform.

 Marius Xerxes wrote:

kingheff wrote:
strange how often I've seen the falcon almost dismissed out of hand when the pulse laser is such a nice weapon.

Its because the Pulse Laser, as mentioned, also comes on the Crimson Hunter/Hunter Exarch. Its a better platform for it, especially the CHE.

A CHE with Pulse Laser and Bright Lances does 6.889 to T7 3+.
A CHE with Pulse Laser and Starcannons does 4.784 to T7 3+.

That's including the CHE getting to re-rolls 1's to hit natively while also suffering the -1 to hit for always moving.

If what they shoot at also has the FLY keyword, then they are re-rolling all rolls to wound as well which is not included.

This, in-addition to natively having a -1 to be hit in return.

Its just an all around better platform.

The hunters are excellent tank killers, better than any of the eldar tanks, but they're not tanks or transports which is the comparison I was trying to figure out. I'm not trying to imply that the falcon is the best unit the craftworlds can field but they seem a very solid and maybe underrated unit to me at least.

I have heard two pieces of advice that seem contrary and was hoping for an explanation.

Who should baby sit your unit (or two) of Dark Reapers?

I've heard people like to use an Autarch with a reaper launcher to provide rerolling 1s to hit and also for an additional launcher (that may also be able to target characters). I have additionally heard that you should use Guide on your Dark Reapers, but if this is the plan than the Autarch seems redundant. Obviously an Autarch is important for the replenishing of every 6th command point, but what do you guys recommend?

Does anyone use a farseer to hang near the dark reapers for a Guide each turn (plus one other spell) in addition to another farseer that would be more forward? Part of me thinks that an Autarch would be good enough and that I really don't need 2 farseers. So what is this I hear about Dark Reapers + Guide?

 Kharneth wrote:
I have heard two pieces of advice that seem contrary and was hoping for an explanation.

Who should baby sit your unit (or two) of Dark Reapers?

I've heard people like to use an Autarch with a reaper launcher to provide rerolling 1s to hit and also for an additional launcher (that may also be able to target characters). I have additionally heard that you should use Guide on your Dark Reapers, but if this is the plan than the Autarch seems redundant. Obviously an Autarch is important for the replenishing of every 6th command point, but what do you guys recommend?

Does anyone use a farseer to hang near the dark reapers for a Guide each turn (plus one other spell) in addition to another farseer that would be more forward? Part of me thinks that an Autarch would be good enough and that I really don't need 2 farseers. So what is this I hear about Dark Reapers + Guide?

If you're going 1 big unit, Farseer for sure. Forewarned is an awesome power to use on an ultra powerful shooty unit. Also the single target buffs from the Farseer are not as effective across smaller units.

Guys, now that the IK codex is out, is there any use for "our" Wraithknight?

Love the model, but it seems utterly useless to me

kingheff wrote:

The hunters are excellent tank killers, better than any of the eldar tanks, but they're not tanks or transports which is the comparison I was trying to figure out. I'm not trying to imply that the falcon is the best unit the craftworlds can field but they seem a very solid and maybe underrated unit to me at least.

The problem with Falcons is that they have been out performed by their peers for pretty much every edition. Wave Serpents put out comparable firepower, but are tougher, have a larger cargo capacity, and don’t take up HS slots. An in some editions have extra broken rules on top of that. It’s not a problem exclusive to the Falcon, but one that historically plagues the Eldar codex. Plenty of units are fine, solid performers, but they are not the 3-4 over the top broken units in the book. The fact that the WS often is in the list of broken things does the humble Flacon no favors.

I run 2 personally. They are the models that got me into Eldar. Blightlances alongside the pulse for long range AV firepower. Normally a small squad of Dire Avengers in one and Fire Dragons in the other.

I also run a pair of Falcons. They have been consistent performers for me since 5th Edition. They are a reasonable solid tank with a strong armament. They aren't dependent on special rules to perform, and they will likely be a reasonable choice in any edition as the rules change around them (unless they become horridly overpriced). Falcons were absolutely hilarious in 5th edition, when Holofields were roll 2d6 take the lowest for damage... put a squad of Dire Avengers in one. Boom, neigh unkillable objective holder.

If you are starting out though, you should magnetize so you can switch freely between the Night Spinner, Fire Prism, and Falcon. That way you can play whichever you like whenever you like!

 akaean wrote:
I also run a pair of Falcons. They have been consistent performers for me since 5th Edition. They are a reasonable solid tank with a strong armament. They aren't dependent on special rules to perform, and they will likely be a reasonable choice in any edition as the rules change around them (unless they become horridly overpriced). Falcons were absolutely hilarious in 5th edition, when Holofields were roll 2d6 take the lowest for damage... put a squad of Dire Avengers in one. Boom, neigh unkillable objective holder.

If you are starting out though, you should magnetize so you can switch freely between the Night Spinner, Fire Prism, and Falcon. That way you can play whichever you like whenever you like!

How do you get access to all 3 weapons without 3 individual ships?

 Kharneth wrote:

 akaean wrote:
I also run a pair of Falcons. They have been consistent performers for me since 5th Edition. They are a reasonable solid tank with a strong armament. They aren't dependent on special rules to perform, and they will likely be a reasonable choice in any edition as the rules change around them (unless they become horridly overpriced). Falcons were absolutely hilarious in 5th edition, when Holofields were roll 2d6 take the lowest for damage... put a squad of Dire Avengers in one. Boom, neigh unkillable objective holder.

If you are starting out though, you should magnetize so you can switch freely between the Night Spinner, Fire Prism, and Falcon. That way you can play whichever you like whenever you like!

How do you get access to all 3 weapons without 3 individual ships?

IBecause the Fire prism and Night spinner are just a Falcon with an extra sprue. So all you need is buy one of those and all pieces to build all 3 come with it (as the difference between Falcon and other 2 it's just the turret and turret weapons between Nighspinner and Fire prism)

 Lord Perversor wrote:

 Kharneth wrote:

 akaean wrote:
I also run a pair of Falcons. They have been consistent performers for me since 5th Edition. They are a reasonable solid tank with a strong armament. They aren't dependent on special rules to perform, and they will likely be a reasonable choice in any edition as the rules change around them (unless they become horridly overpriced). Falcons were absolutely hilarious in 5th edition, when Holofields were roll 2d6 take the lowest for damage... put a squad of Dire Avengers in one. Boom, neigh unkillable objective holder.

If you are starting out though, you should magnetize so you can switch freely between the Night Spinner, Fire Prism, and Falcon. That way you can play whichever you like whenever you like!

How do you get access to all 3 weapons without 3 individual ships?

IBecause the Fire prism and Night spinner are just a Falcon with an extra sprue. So all you need is buy one of those and all pieces to build all 3 come with it (as the difference between Falcon and other 2 it's just the turret and turret weapons between Nighspinner and Fire prism)

So, if I buy a Fire Prism it will give me the turret for a Night spinner?

Fire Prism/Night Spinner use the same main body for their turret, so you'd need to:
-Get reeeely good at magnitizing (too much specificity here for it to be worth it, IMO)
-Find someone with leftover bits
-Buy 2 boxes

Fire prism and Nightspinner are very easy to magnetise. You can build both with one box. I've done it. I'm sure there are tutorials on youtube.