Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Easy to win with, your army is broken, all you do is reroll dice, your army has every special rule in the game and no weaknesses....

Locally I hear this same sad song over and over again. Ordinarily I would ignore it as complaints like this normally come from players that you trounce easily. Sometimes though, you hear it from decent players.

Its so tiresome. I've played eldar since Rogue trader on and off. Its seems to be the legacy of eldar players that we're fated to endure constant whining and crying. I understand that falcons are hard to bring down (but expensive), I understand that Harlequins are better than genestealers in combat (but expensive and FRAGILE), but people locally just dont seem to be able to be quiet about it.

My army doesnt even feature falcons, I'm still annoyed at all the whining though as I dont think falcons are all that great. They make fantastic 200pt transports that dont do much else.

What do you guys tell players that have the above complaints about your army? What do you tell them if they are actually decent players spouting off the same garbage?

Give them your army and beat them?

Generally you don't say anything. Good players learn to adapt. Needing to win every game is a sign of a weak opponent. Almost everyone at my FLGS had real trouble with Mech Eldar when one of our players first really put his army together, now almost everyone has learned how to adapt.

Dr Phibes wrote:Generally you don't say anything. Good players learn to adapt. Needing to win every game is a sign of a weak opponent. Almost everyone at my FLGS had real trouble with Mech Eldar when one of our players first really put his army together, now almost everyone has learned how to adapt.

Your logic...it hurts...

Eldar will always have complains, because they were specifically designed and optimized as a counter-force to keep SM (and other Elites) in check.

Swamp them in Orks, and see who really cries...

JohnHwangDD wrote:Eldar will always have complains, because they were specifically designed and optimized as a counter-force to keep SM (and other Elites) in check.

Swamp them in Orks, and see who really cries...

No part of that post is accurate.

Just tell them you'll play your own version of their army type, and they can play your exact army.

Then beat it.

Most people don't whine about Eldar (or anything) anymore, they just learn to beat the army.

malfred wrote:Give them your army and beat them?

True enough.

I have played Eldar since 2nd. The group I gamed with wasn't into "special characters", so we never really used them.
Come to think on it, I have NEVER used Specials, except once when about 8 of us got crazed one day..... We each brought out our S-C's, ALL of them and fought to the death. It was very amusing and frustrating. Especially when 'dueling rules' came into play.....

Back on topic....
I've heard people complain about the 3 flacon play, and I can see how it can become irksome. Never used it myself, but I see the appeal. One Falcon is a target, 3 is unstoppable.

I think what most people fail to see is that there is NO "one unit does it all" in the Eldar army list. The eldar, in my experience, is an army that has to have all parts working together to succeed.

To be fair, Eldar have had solidly performing to outright brutal lists since 2nd edition. While 4th edition took some of the teeth out of Biel Tan, Uthwe was still a top notch list until the new codex arrived. The current eldar codex, in the current edition, with the current set of missions, has some of the best tools to win.

Yes falcons are expensive, but at 205 pts, they're not that expensive for costly units, if that makes sense. Harlies are remarkable durable for "Fragile" unit, and for an elite army, Eldar ahve access to some cheap troops choices (jetbikes, defenders, and pathfinder all can come out under 100pts).

What's my point? That some of the complaining is justified. Eldar aren't Orks, or IG, or Sisters, or Space Wolves: armies that had ups and downs and have foils and so on. Eldar really are, have been, solidly above the baseline for army strength. Also, as John H pointed out, Eldar are a natural foil the MEQ armies, so tend to prospere where those armies proliferate.

Now, does this mean the kvetching is justified? Not really. Unless your running three falcon in friendlies, the codex isn't unbeatable, just good. As has been stated, barring the most broken examples, good players will adapt and the best will come out on top.

So, how do you respond? First off, don't play dumb. Say it's a good codex, and that it's got a lot of toys. If you have to, point out some the armies weaknesses. Depending on your opponents skill level, simple tactical inexperience may be the heart of their problems.

Secondly, offer to play with another army, or allow them to borrow yours, or in some way show that you can play and win without your eldar.

Finally, if they're simply being whiny jerks, say you'd switch armies, but they'd probably bitch about endlessly about any army other than Ultramarines, and then only if you didn't use Tigerious. Or assault cannons.

Why say anything? Armies don't play themselves, it's perfectly possible for a "good" Eldar list to lose horribly in the hands of someone who doesn't know what they're doing. Lists don't win games, people do (though I happen to believe that affording yourself a good list is the first thing you should do if winning is a priority).

Honestly, if these people are getting beat bad by a certain kind of army and that's making them mad then the onus is on them to elevate their game in whatever way they can to make a decent showing. If they hate losing so much then they either have to become better players, play a better army, or both. If they don't wish to do any of those things then they shouldn't complain about army power, as winning's just not on their mind.

I guess that's just a roundabout way of saying if people think that it's just an army list that wins games or beats them, they probably suck and have one or more mental blocks or complexes, and you should probably just ignore them to the best of your ability. There's no sense catering to people who want you to have fun their way, as a good game for that crowd usually involves them beating you and being jerks while they're doing it.

Try not using the same army every game/tournament.

I have the same problem with Necrons. I'm a nice guy to play. But one of the reasons I don't play pickup games anymore is because I got tired of all the crying of cheese. I mostly just play in tournaments now. And I alternate between armies. Sometimes I'll bring Necrons, sometimes I'll bring Marines. Many people just hate Necrons.

By the way. Good luck with the "let's switch armies and I'll beat my own army with yours". I've given up on helping people beat my armies. It rarely helps the situation and they still cry cheese.

~Logic

Well duh. Thats why I play them (or used to).


Edit: Its the falcons/prisms. I've played with and against them. Although I love it they are broken for the cost of the field upgrade. I think this is about to be rectified in a big way in V5. You don't hear complaints any more about the avatar, wraithlords, etc. Its always the falcon.

There is no real solution. Take whatever you like to bring. It's your time and money that is getting your army built and painted. If the army is legal, then it is legal.

I've tried making friendlier lists with my Eldar and still get complaints. I'm convinced the only way to stop the complaints is to drop Eldrad, Avatar, Warlocks with Conceal, Vibro Cannons, Wraithlord. This way, I am left with naked Guardians.

Hell, I'm waiting for the real whining; I'm nearly finished painting my squad of Harlies.

Basically, just run whatever you want.

Falcons seem a bit broken to me. But I fought and beat a mech eldar list recently, and I'm not the world's greatest player, so they're not unstoppable.

Harlies are easy to deal with for any army with decent BS or cheap troops.
Wraithlords are far from unbeatable with all the powerfists floating around.
Jetbikes are pretty good, but you can deal with them.
Basically, 3 nigh on invunerable scoring units in a supposedly fragile army is what bugs people.
That and the fact that there is an often repeated fallacy that eldar players have to be amazingly good to win convincingly with their army.

The current eldar list is fine now. I've never had much trouble with eldar, but most people I know agree that the 3rd edition biel tan list was broken and too powerful.

jfrazell wrote: I think this is about to be rectified in a big way in V5. You don't hear complaints any more about the avatar, wraithlords, etc. Its always the falcon.

Unlikely. It looks like falcons are going to be even more invincible than ever in 5th actually. While there will be no more always glance from skimmer moving fast, they will be able to sit in terrain and get a 4+ cover save. Then you can have a farseer fortune them for rerolls on that save. All this and since they are not changing the codex, at least not for a long time, holo fields (the real thing that makes them so hard to kill) are still there and still do exactly what they do now. *sigh*

In either case, the thing with eldar is that in the hands of a good player they can be brutal. However they are toughness 3 and not many have 3+ armor (nothing has 2+) so they are frail. Their only tough units are the falcon, dreadnaught, and the wave serpent (I guess wraithguard but who takes those) so if they want to survive long to incoming enemy fire, they have to take it on those units. Now a clever eldar player will bait his opponent into shooting at these units and ignoring the soft tasty units that lie behind them. Inexperienced or bad opponents will take the bait. It’s how eldar work. The trick to winning against them is to not take the bate and wipe out the soft units that can't take much in the way of return fire. So few people seem to understand this and its why they lose to eldar over and over again.

Now I must concede that the holo field is broken and something needs to be done about it. However, the rest of the army is fairly well balanced and people would do well to learn how to handle the vast array of units that the eldar have to throw at them. Adaptation is the key because while the eldar have the tools to do anything and do it well, those tools are only good in certain situations and if they get caught outside of their area of expertise, they get destroyed. A good eldar player knows how to keep his units in their element and a good opponent knows how to catch the eldar out of their element.

You tell them that unless the Eldar player is using 3 Holofield Grav Tanks, then they're full of and need to learn to play better.

That's pretty much it, really.

I have a better one. Tell them, "yep Eldar are cheesier than gargonzola. It must suck to be you" (non-eldar player).

jfrazell wrote:I have a better one. Tell them, "yep Eldar are cheesier than gargonzola. It must suck to be you" (non-eldar player).

This only works if your opponent isn't playing Orks.

In which case, we just respond wit da choppa.

Phoenix wrote:The trick to winning against them is to not take the bate and wipe out the soft units that can't take much in the way of return fire. So few people seem to understand this and its why they lose to eldar over and over again.

Very important point. Hope people hear it.

Voodoo Boyz wrote:

jfrazell wrote:I have a better one. Tell them, "yep Eldar are cheesier than gargonzola. It must suck to be you" (non-eldar player).

This only works if your opponent isn't playing Orks.

In which case, we just respond wit da choppa.

Respect.

Who are whining about Eldar being cheesy? Is it your close friends? The members at your local gaming club? Strangers at pick up games? If it is your close friends, perhaps you should ask yourself if you are playing a friendly kind of game, or if you are trying to win at all costs.

Personally, I only play WH40K with a rather small group of clos friends, simply because I can't stand people whining about broken units, bad luck, arguing about rules, etc, etc, etc. When I play, I don't really care who wins and who looses. I simpley want to have a good time, so I'd rather not play whiners.

So it might be somewhat of a solution to you, to stick to playing with your close bunch of players, and just ignore the whiners instead of trying to re-educate them. Oh, by the way - I haven't been playing for quite some time now - cause my old posse all have gotten married with children... So there is a downside to only playing with your old chums.

"What do you say to players that insist that Eldar are easy to win with?"

"Bring it on!"

As long as it is a legal list i will take on that challenge.

People complain about a lot of armies. If it really bugs then play another race. At least that will stop their whining about your eldar.

- G

Just lose a couple of games. It's sad that your friends complain to the point that you need to post about it. They must be real whiners.

I used to reply to Eldar with Slaaneshi cav daemon bombs rending death ghaaaa. However, that is no longer an option, so I'm a sad panda.

Deadshane1 wrote:Easy to win with, your army is broken, all you do is reroll dice, your army has every special rule in the game and no weaknesses....

Locally I hear this same sad song over and over again. Ordinarily I would ignore it as complaints like this normally come from players that you trounce easily. Sometimes though, you hear it from decent players.

Its so tiresome. I've played eldar since Rogue trader on and off. Its seems to be the legacy of eldar players that we're fated to endure constant whining and crying. I understand that falcons are hard to bring down (but expensive), I understand that Harlequins are better than genestealers in combat (but expensive and FRAGILE), but people locally just dont seem to be able to be quiet about it.

My army doesnt even feature falcons, I'm still annoyed at all the whining though as I dont think falcons are all that great. They make fantastic 200pt transports that dont do much else.

What do you guys tell players that have the above complaints about your army? What do you tell them if they are actually decent players spouting off the same garbage?

I laugh in thier face. Eldar don't fare so well in this local.