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As a new owner of Imperial Armor V, I have been planning on using the DKoK list for my Praetorians since I have a few Thudd guns and just bought some Heavy Mortars. Fortunately, I just got into a club with a good bunch of guys who don't mind if I play the list. The DKoK list is very different than standard IG lists (no heavy weapons in line squads for example) but on the surface seems very balanced.

I know the lists are technically legal, but I have never seen a tourney allow for FW lists except for maybe Adepticon? Any chance they would ever become a standard part of the tourney scene?

Nope.

Not a chance.



Two reasons:

1. Someone shows up with a full DKoK army filled to the gills with arty units, strange 80-man infantry platoons, quartermaster units, the works. Most people don't own the IA books, so they'll wonder what on earth they're facing. It will cause confusion, and ultimately anyone playing an IA list will spent most of their time explaining why their 12 Heavy Mortars with Infernus Shells are going to utterly rape anything they come across.
2. People are stupid, ignorant and lazy, and think that anything different is 'cheese'. It's why you still here people harping on about FW rules being 'opponent's permission' when they're actually not. Most FW stuff actually sucks (anyone tried using a Leman Russ Executioner as written? Conquerer anyone?), and that that doesn't completely suck is often overpriced. All FW stuff does most of the time is look cool. And cost lots of money. But people assume they're Uber-Powerful, cry cheese, and frankly it's just not worth the time and effort of GW or their judges arguing with your opponent over whether your Cyclops Demo vehicle is going to give you 5 Massacre Results.

BYE

Indeed, the majority of the Forge world stuff is overpointed weak sauce...but they let the occasional bit of nonsense through. Small Squiggoths anyone, what was it, 50 points for a 6 wound t6 creature? Those shells that make non-fearless enemies fall back without a check? The problem is that making Forge World stuff tourney legal would result in floods of this sort of thing. Folks would disregard the majority of the books and grab the crazy stuff, just like we do with normal books, but Forge World tends to have more extreme examples of both under and over priced stuff.

It all depends on the tournament organizer. Since it is one more thing to worry about for the TO that very few people are actually interested in using so the gut reaction is always to disallow such lists.

H.B.M.C. wrote:
Two reasons:

1. Someone shows up with a full DKoK army filled to the gills with arty units, strange 80-man infantry platoons, quartermaster units, the works. Most people don't own the IA books, so they'll wonder what on earth they're facing. It will cause confusion, and ultimately anyone playing an IA list will spent most of their time explaining why their 12 Heavy Mortars with Infernus Shells are going to utterly rape anything they come across.

This is the main reason...access. Most people do not own the IA books, or can't easily get their hands on them. Some goes for the models. Last year at the Adepticon Gladiator I ended up facing a guy with 2 Warhound Titans in the first round. I am glad I own some of the books and I know what I was facing, but it would not be fun to play against if you have no idea what that thing is from everything from void shields to mass points.

2. People are stupid, ignorant and lazy, and think that anything different is 'cheese'. It's why you still here people harping on about FW rules being 'opponent's permission' when they're actually not. Most FW stuff actually sucks (anyone tried using a Leman Russ Executioner as written? Conquerer anyone?), and that that doesn't completely suck is often overpriced. All FW stuff does most of the time is look cool. And cost lots of money. But people assume they're Uber-Powerful, cry cheese, and frankly it's just not worth the time and effort of GW or their judges arguing with your opponent over whether your Cyclops Demo vehicle is going to give you 5 Massacre Results.

#2 is not correct. The problem with the IA books is not that the guy across from you is taking a lot of overpriced garbage, but they have cherry-picked the best units out of the IA books that are over powered and under priced. At Adepticon 2 years ago the rage was Griffins with Infernus shells, and last year it was Godzilla lists with Meteoric Spore Mines. If they took the bad units with the good stuff I would not mind to much, but that is not human nature.

I'm glad the league I'm in lets you play with FW stuff in tournies, even if you're not playing with entire armies.

When Gamesday rolls around I might pick up some remora drones.

Overall I'm completely in agreement with Blackmoor.

Blackmoor wrote:#2 is not correct. The problem with the IA books is not that the guy across from you is taking a lot of overpriced garbage, but they have cherry-picked the best units out of the IA books that are over powered and under priced. At Adepticon 2 years ago the rage was Griffins with Infernus shells, and last year it was Godzilla lists with Meteoric Spore Mines. If they took the bad units with the good stuff I would not mind to much, but that is not human nature.

Please add Giant Chaos Spawn and Cyclops Demo vehicles to that list.

MOST of the units in IA are as HBMC says, overpriced and under-effective. But there are a few very distinct exceptions out there, which are either blatantly overpowered (Infernus shells, Giant Spawn) or just very good (Cyclops, Grot Bombs, Mycetic Spores). “Very good” units wouldn’t be complained about if everyone was familiar with them ahead of time, but in people’s minds get lumped in with the broken stuff due to their unfamiliarity.

Playing devil's advocate, if these lists were allowed in more tournaments wouldn't the awareness obviously grow? Looking at the Dakka Swap Shop I have seen many DKoK mini's being sought after and with FW being 30 days behind on their shipping around Christmas, somebody is obviously buying this stuff.

Is it a great stretch to say that the kind hardcore player who is interested in FW stuff isn't the same kind of player who plays in tournies?

I think most codicies have under and over powered units, hell half the conversation on this website is about which are good and which suck. Speaking only about the DKoK list, yeah the infernus shells are very sweet, but the rest of the list is more fluffy than competitive imho.

It would be great to see FW stuff integrated fully into the GW universe, however fleeting this dream may be.

The best approach is to build a FW DKoK list that *also* plays as vanilla IG.

Kind of defeats the whole purpose of buying the Thudd Guns and Heavy Mortars.

Treat as, baby, treat as.

There are lots of players who buy FW. But the combination of most tournament having disallowed them for so long, and the high price to buy an IA book just for the sake of learning what your deep-pockets opponent's cool models do, together make it harder to keep up on the FW stuff.

Adepticon allows it in the Team Tournament and the 40k Championships, not just the Gladiator, and it is definitely a factor in the metagame. If you're not used to it, when you see multiple armies with 6-9 Giant Spawn, half a dozen Mycetic Spores, or other ickiness, you realize that you need to learn fast and adapt to overcome.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Treat as, baby, treat as.

Which is just another way of saying Counts As, which is quite possibly the most lame excuse ever for army construction.

If someone's gone to the effort (and the COST!) of buying a full DKoK army, and haven't gone crazy with the really powerful stuff (ie. Heavy Mortars w/Infernus Shells), then they should be able to use it. Aside from Infernus Shells, the DKoK don't have a lot going for them. They're just Guard with less access to tanks and heavy weapons. If anything, playing them as Counts-As would make them more powerful.

BYE

I've seen a kid play with DKOK using regular IG rules. Go figure.

Well, there are some tournaments (like Adepticon) which allow IA rules but not the IA army lists. So if someone were to build an IG army they could indeed include the cool Artillery pieces they bought from FW.


And anyone who buys a FW model should know that they're not going to get to use it using the IA rules in most tournaments, as most tournaments explicitly prohibit their use.

So as John suggests if you can find a way to use your cool models in a 'counts as' function in these types of tournament then you have the best of both worlds.

But as explained in the forward to IA Apocalypse, FW is there to help expand the universe of 40K by making models they think are cool, not by always making the most competitive tournament unit. You have to know that going into buying their stuff.

You either have to just *love* the model or be okay using it in most of your games as a "counts as" because otherwise you just aren't going to get to use it in too many tournaments.

As already pointed out most FW units are just variations of standard designs. they add variety and flavor to the game and are indeed overcost or limited in deployment in comparison to standard units most of the time.

While i do not expect to see them in GTs, our local tournaments and RTTs have allowed them for as long as i can remember. also keep in mind though that some of the big stuff (flyers, superheavies and titans) was not intended for use in normal games, especialy when you do not know you will face them or can prepare for them.

I am fortunate enough to be in charge of our local 40K league and i can say that non-superheavy/flyer/titan variant FW models are indeed allowed in this RTT based setting. at 1,850 points most people in our league have at least 1 or 2 FW units (not entire armies) to spice up thier lists. rather it be the tau player with shas'o r'myr, chimeras with autocanon turrets or my lone landspeeder tempest. none fo them are enough to unbalance or break the game. in fact i would loe to see more FW units in play.

FYI ... Giant Spawn can now be moved over to the over-priced don't bother and Mycetic Spores have been nerfed.

Actually Giant Spawn were never that good in a tourney environment or at least mass amounts of them. To slow, No range and Non-scoring. First mission to reserve them and you played X number of points down. Great in the rest of the games that didn't reserve them and they sure were under pointed .. but that one reserve mission had a good chance to sink you.

At Adepticon we expect ... as should all the players.... if you are playing any FW units to disclose fully prior to playing both the rules via a copy and any nasty effects. If your playing a SH in the Gladiator you should be prepare to discuss the Super Heavy rules with your opponent.

I have always contended that the problems have not been the rules but familarity. It's definitely a regional thing. The core of the midwest tourney circuit sprang out and had access to the Chicago Battle Bunker. Be it RTT's in Chicago, Bloomington, Peoria, Madison, or Springfield. The leadership that was involved in the early years came from these communities. As a result FW is pretty widely accepted and common place.

Even so .. perception is not always reality. If you look at the winners of various events over the years. The majority contain no FW .. or in some cases very little. Just as the vast majority of all Gladiator winners have been fairly "standard RTT" lists.

I personally think all non-Flyer/Superheavy Forgeworld Models should be legal in all tournements.

It just adds more flavour and choices to the game, and it actually makes Forgeworld models worth buying, so it's really in GW's interest to allow them, at least at it's tourneys.