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The general consensus is that Tri Falcon eldar is going to get knocked down a few notches. So what does that mean for our space elves?

1. Sword Wind:
A throw back to classic Biel Tan lists. The idea behind it is lots of aspects warrior mounted in serpents. Serpents will do fairly well when used in mass so use them to drop off cargo and then have them snipe tanks or pepper ground troops. The best HQ options are probably Running Autarchs or Phenix Lords. fill in heavy support to taste. As for troops you can either go for bikes or Avengers. Guardians don't fair so well without support.
This will probably be the de-facto mech army.

2. Sain Hain:
Bikes bikes and more bikes. Some people have had a lot of success with this kind of army. For close combat you take Shining Spears with Autarch or Seer Council with Farseer. This kind or army need quicker heavy support so prism cannons and falcons are key. Mounted dragons are an option as well.

3. Gound Pounders
The ederad + Avatar combo. Backed up by mass guardians and possibly wraith guard. Heavy support can be anything from war walker, prisms, tri wraithlord (for eld-zilla .)

So what do you think? Can the eldar make a comeback?

I wouldn't be worried about eldar.

Dire avengers in wave serpents and bike units make good objective "takers". Rangers and Pathfinders are excellent objective "holders" Guardians with psychic and morale support can hold well also. So you've got your objective getting and keeping covered.

Fire support seems pretty unscathed. I'm dreading the soon to be world famous combo of a wraithlord standing in front of a fire prism. As long as some portion of the fire prisms front is obscured by the wraithlord, they are going to have to take him down before they can claim to shoot you. If they have any strength 4 or 3 guns in range, they can claim "covering fire" and bypass the wraithlord, but that gives your fire prism a 4+ cover save. War walkers can pull these same shenanigans for cheaper and they can block space marines, necrons and sisters from calling covering fire. Your own weapon LOS will be traced off of the end of the gun being fired, so you can probably find a nice spot where your wraithlord/war walker is blocking them but not blocking you.

heck come to think of it, I believe the heavy grav platforms count as armor 10 vehicles. Could they obscure a large target?

Another option that is now wide open for eldar is just to ork it up and ground pound assault. Run a 10 man wraithguard unit as a troops choice, splash a bit of fortune and conceal on them and run up as many striking scorpions as you can squeeze behind them. You can accompany the flanks of that formation with the unshootable harlequins and maybe some running, sword-wielding wraithlords. Eventually you can just jog your wraithguard to some objective that they'll never get dislodged from and go ape with all of your dreadlocked predator wanna-be's.

I'm sure we can all come up with more combos. Eldar is so full of different units that do things so differently, half the fun is all the hidden synergy in there. It also makes them VERY adaptable to global changes to the game.

Prisms in Heavy are going to be sweet. They give you your tankbusting, are hard to kill, and can handle hordes. They also don't miss, and template rules just got better.

I actually like 10 Wraithguard as troops believe it or not. Throw in some rangers to hold objectives in your DZ, and a Dire Avenger squad or two and you're looking at covering a bunch of bases.

Backup the 'Guard with some assault units using the WG as a screen.

Probably looking at Farseer for HQ, or Eldrad. Either would work, depending on points.

The Eldar list is solid, change the rules we just get more and better tricks. Note that holofields are still great and Falcons are still solid.

As mentioned, one word that seems to get thrown around alot is "fortune". Whether it's on Warwalkers in cover, Grav Tanks in general, the new running Wraithguard or any other unit in the book it seems that Farseers will be front and center.

Voodoo Boyz wrote:I actually like 10 Wraithguard as troops believe it or not. Throw in some rangers to hold objectives in your DZ, and a Dire Avenger squad or two and you're looking at covering a bunch of bases.

That's another thing. Guardians, Dire Avengers (defend and SS), Jet Bikes, Pathfinders and Wraithguard are all excellent, viable and resilient Troop choices.

It's a bit of a stretch to call Wraithguard 'excellent [and] viable'. They're overpriced models with guns that have to short a range to have any impact on the game. All they are is tough. Tougher with Fortuned Conceal.


And I think that a trio of Hull Down Holo-Field-ed Fire Prisms could be quite nice. Who needs to move now when you can get a 3+ or 4+ cover save from staying still behind something. Getting through those saves then the Holo-Fields isn't going to be easy.

BYE

The one thing that worries me about prisms is that their anti-tank shot is still a small blast, and thus would scatter. It seems like a scattering small blast would drift off target an awful lot of the time.

What do the more experienced players think? Do scattering small blasts kill the prism's anti-tank role, or would it still be reliable?

H.B.M.C. wrote:It's a bit of a stretch to call Wraithguard 'excellent [and] viable'. They're overpriced models with guns that have to short a range to have any impact on the game. All they are is tough. Tougher with Fortuned Conceal.


And I think that a trio of Hull Down Holo-Field-ed Fire Prisms could be quite nice. Who needs to move now when you can get a 3+ or 4+ cover save from staying still behind something. Getting through those saves then the Holo-Fields isn't going to be easy.

BYE

The only thing that 10 Wraithguard shooting on turn 2 that WON'T care about it are hordes. Anything else in the game is going to feel that and not like it. Given that they're extremely tough, even out in the open and their assault weakness can be covered by a unit they're screening - I'm seeing a lot to like. In terms of being the unit you use to break through and get to objectives, they could seal the deal.

Powerfists were what really killed them, and they got nerfed. Rending killed them, and that got nerfed. They're WS5, so only Stealers and DC Chaplains are going to really be putting the hurt on them in CC, and those can be hurt by what you're supporting them with.

They're not broken, but I think that there's an argument that they become viable, maybe even good.

Backed up by Prisms to handle hordes, I think Eldar can do well in the objective game.

For all the love Jetbikes are getting, they have to SIT on an objective for up to 3 turns to claim it because of random game length. That last turn grab isn't going to work a lot of the time, I think you're going to need ground pounders to really hold objectives.

H.B.M.C. wrote:It's a bit of a stretch to call Wraithguard 'excellent [and] viable'. They're overpriced models with guns that have to short a range to have any impact on the game. All they are is tough. Tougher with Fortuned Conceal.

Probably right.

I'm looking forward to trying a full squad of 10 in my first 5th ed game, just because of their resiliency and the new objective mission rules. Probably take them with Eldrad, who I haven't had a reason to use before.

Shep wrote:Your own weapon LOS will be traced off of the end of the gun being fired, so you can probably find a nice spot where your wraithlord/war walker is blocking them but not blocking you.

In the pdf I read, which is supposed to be a preliminary look at 5th Ed., the model's line of sight is traced from the EYES of the model, not the 'end of the gun'. Also if a MODEL is partially obscured by friendly or enemy models it cannot be targeted and counts as not visible. Any model which screens your unit also blocks that unit from firing at the enemy units which cannot shoot through the same screen. If models in a unit can shoot around a screening unit or model, they would also be targets in return.

That's how I understand the RAW for supposed 5th ed.

Rockit wrote:

Shep wrote:Your own weapon LOS will be traced off of the end of the gun being fired, so you can probably find a nice spot where your wraithlord/war walker is blocking them but not blocking you.

In the pdf I read, which is supposed to be a preliminary look at 5th Ed., the model's line of sight is traced from the EYES of the model, not the 'end of the gun'. [...]

In general, that's true, but in the Vehicles section, it says that LOS is drawn from the weapon for vehicles. So it shouldn't be too hard to position a wraithlord and a fire prism so that LOS can be drawn from the prism cannon to its target without being blocked by the wraithlord, while the wraithlord covers a bit of the prism from the enemy's POV, thus protecting the tank.

If 5th ed LOS rules end up being as they are in the leaked version, there are going to be a number of situations where one-way screens can be set up that allow some models to fire without taking fire in return. I'm not saying that has to be a bad thing in every case, but it would be a significant change.

Dire Wombat wrote:If 5th ed LOS rules end up being as they are in the leaked version, there are going to be a number of situations where one-way screens can be set up that allow some models to fire without taking fire in return. I'm not saying that has to be a bad thing in every case, but it would be a significant change.

If they end up being as they are in the leaked version, I'm going to really hate them.

Dire Wombat wrote:The one thing that worries me about prisms is that their anti-tank shot is still a small blast, and thus would scatter. It seems like a scattering small blast would drift off target an awful lot of the time.

What do the more experienced players think? Do scattering small blasts kill the prism's anti-tank role, or would it still be reliable?

It's still reliable enough. It depends what you are shooting, there aren't any Vyper sized AV14 tanks.

All the AV13 hulls are pretty large so even a 2-3" scatter will leave a mark on most of them.

I'm thinking I can probably get a very shooty Eldar army. I won't take a lot of adjustment, but I don't run 3 Falcons anyways.

-Dropping my Vibro Cannon battery. Currently it is used against mech lists with some decent results. With glancing hits giving a -2 on the damage chart, they become much less useful. I guess spending 100 points for a battery of two was too good to be true.

-I may add a second unit of War Walkers. Park them in cover for a 4+ cover save, cast Fortune and Guide and let them unleash. 3 w/ Scatterlasers and 3 w/ Missile Launchers seem feasable.

-I may drop the Avatar for a 2nd Farseer. I'll keep Eldrad as his Divination may still be very clutch if I have to set up first. But, I may want a second Farseer to cast Guide/Fortune each turn.

-For my Guardians, I will probably utelize the LOS and terrain rules to get decent cover saves. It's debatable whether it's worth to put in Warlocks with Embolden as there will be no Avatar (which is exactly what I was doing in 3rd edition with my Ulthwe, ironcically enough)

-I may have to really get to work on my Eldar Jetbikes. I can really see them being more important as they will be one of the few units in the game that can move 24" and hold objectives.

Stelek wrote:

Dire Wombat wrote:The one thing that worries me about prisms is that their anti-tank shot is still a small blast, and thus would scatter. It seems like a scattering small blast would drift off target an awful lot of the time.

What do the more experienced players think? Do scattering small blasts kill the prism's anti-tank role, or would it still be reliable?

It's still reliable enough. It depends what you are shooting, there aren't any Vyper sized AV14 tanks.

All the AV13 hulls are pretty large so even a 2-3" scatter will leave a mark on most of them.

I think the complaint is that best situation for AT you hit 1/2 the time now instead of 2/3 the time.

off topic my friend nailed it on the head, BS should alter your scatter distance or small blasts should only scatter d3 inches.

gdurant wrote:

Stelek wrote:

Dire Wombat wrote:The one thing that worries me about prisms is that their anti-tank shot is still a small blast, and thus would scatter. It seems like a scattering small blast would drift off target an awful lot of the time.

What do the more experienced players think? Do scattering small blasts kill the prism's anti-tank role, or would it still be reliable?

It's still reliable enough. It depends what you are shooting, there aren't any Vyper sized AV14 tanks.

All the AV13 hulls are pretty large so even a 2-3" scatter will leave a mark on most of them.

I think the complaint is that best situation for AT you hit 1/2 the time now instead of 2/3 the time.

off topic my friend nailed it on the head, BS should alter your scatter distance or small blasts should only scatter d3 inches.

My idea is that if you make your BS check it's a hit, otherwise it scatters. Maybe 'reverse twin-link' it if you move or it is indirect (have to hit twice).

Doesn't make sense that Ork Ordnance, Tank Ace Russ and Fire Prism twin-link all have the same chance to hit. On the other hand there are no partials now, so maybe it's supposed to cancel out/ speed things up.

I have the same opinion Tacobake... roll to hit, a miss scatters. I like that mechanic even without partials in play. Since the template is the area of effectiveness, anything in or partially in has a chance to be affected (IMHO).

Sorry for the threadjack on template shooting, but I wanted to reinforce an idea I myself resisted posting earlier.

yeees, I keep bringing it up in the hopes that someone is reading .

it really bugs me, I'll probably house rule it.

Here's an easy way to deal with scattering if you want to play the to hit roll instead of just rolling the scatter dice: The template scatters a number of inches equal to the to-hit dice if a hit is not rolled.

For example, an Ork with a Kustom Mega-Blaster rolls a 3 to hit a unit of Space Marines. The blast marker deviates 3" in a direction determined by the scatter dice, using the arrow on the HIT results to determine direction just like a Multiple Barrage.

For a moving vehicle multiply the distance scattered by 2x.

Sorry a little bit off topic, but how did power fists get nerfed?

Orock wrote:Sorry a little bit off topic, but how did power fists get nerfed?

they don't get an extra attack from a second weapon unless it's a power fist or thunderhammer. Since they're just that good.

Reminds me of once we called the gw trolls because my buddy didn't believe me I could turn off my scorpion exarch power claw, and then use it at I6 as a second weapon to beat his whatever it was over the head with my shuriken pistol.

By the end of the conversation he told the guy, "I'm getting a new hobby."

good times.

Interestingly, by making Powerfists require a same-weapon bonus like Lightening Claws, troops like Terminators and Power Armoured Nobz are comparatively improved. The pdf also removes the 'no bonus attack for charging' that Slow and Purposeful has in the 4th edition.

Voodoo Boyz wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:It's a bit of a stretch to call Wraithguard 'excellent [and] viable'. They're overpriced models with guns that have to short a range to have any impact on the game. All they are is tough. Tougher with Fortuned Conceal.

The only thing that 10 Wraithguard shooting on turn 2 that WON'T care about it are hordes. Anything else in the game is going to feel that and not like it. Given that they're extremely tough, even out in the open and their assault weakness can be covered by a unit they're screening - I'm seeing a lot to like. In terms of being the unit you use to break through and get to objectives, they could seal the deal.

Powerfists were what really killed them, and they got nerfed. Rending killed them, and that got nerfed. They're WS5, so only Stealers and DC Chaplains are going to really be putting the hurt on them in CC, and those can be hurt by what you're supporting them with.

While I have heaped a lot of scorn on wraith guard over 3rd and 4th edition, I think I'm going to have to agree with Voodoo Boyz on this one this time. The reason that wraithguard sucked in 4th was that they had very short range and that while they were tough, the still were not tough enough without back up from a farseer or a wave serpent. With the advent of screening, it all of a sudden becomes very very worth while to take an already very tough unit, make them even tougher (conceal and fortune) and then use them as a bullet sponge for the rest of your frail troops. Using a 10 man unit to screen half an army of eldar assault troops seems like a very viable and very deadly application for the wraithguard. If used in this capacity, its not their ability to do damage that you are benifiting from, its their ability to allow your other units to do damage. And if the wraithguard manage to get close enough to shoot at something before getting assaulted, so much the better.

Dire Wombat wrote:The one thing that worries me about prisms is that their anti-tank shot is still a small blast, and thus would scatter. It seems like a scattering small blast would drift off target an awful lot of the time.

What do the more experienced players think? Do scattering small blasts kill the prism's anti-tank role, or would it still be reliable?

Best way to find out would be to roll it out. Take some tank models you got sitting around and start shooting them with small blast templates. Keep track of how many times the hole stays on the tank and how many times it scatters off. Or if you would rather play math hammer you can do that. Grab some tank models and find out how much distance you need to go to get off the tank in several different directions. Then take the average of those distances to get one distance number. After that, figure that 1/3 shots hit and the other 2/3 scatter. Then figure out what % of those scatter your average distance or greater.

All in all, I'm guessing that the fire prisim will remain a viable anti tank platform.

Wraith guard as meat shields.

The idea just doesn't appeal to me. It's near 400pts for 10 with conceal. It will be a tough as nails unit that many people won't or can't kill. But I don't like the idea of screening with them. Short and simple there is nothing worth screening in a eldar army. Guardians need to shoot support weapons to be useful. Dire Avengers are a questionable choice. Storm guardians are laughable. and most aspects are better off mounted in serpents.

I think W.guard have potential because they are tough can kill anything and hold objectives pretty well.
What would of made my year is if wraith guard had weapon options like terminators. wraith guard with power fists and the like. And waithlords with D-cannons. Ahh what a pipe dream.

but is shielding guardians worth 400 points? In a flat out fire fight the W. guard win. But I'm thinking most people would assault them just to keep them busy.

gdurant wrote:Wraith guard as meat shields.

The idea just doesn't appeal to me. It's near 400pts for 10 with conceal. It will be a tough as nails unit that many people won't or can't kill. But I don't like the idea of screening with them. Short and simple there is nothing worth screening in a eldar army. Guardians need to shoot support weapons to be useful. Dire Avengers are a questionable choice. Storm guardians are laughable. and most aspects are better off mounted in serpents.

No one says you have to use wraith guard as meat shields. No one is saying its a particularly fluffy thing to do or that its the way eldar "should" work. We are however pointing out that it would be an effective battlefield use for them. I was morally opposed to the use of crystal targeting matrixes in 3rd edition and refused to use them. That by no means made them bad or unviable. I think you aversion to the idea is an example of the same sort of thing in action.

Regardless, if you look at the points, how much do wave serpents cost most of the time? Pulling numbers out of my head, I think mine usually run near 140 points after guns and upgrades and what not. So your 400 point wraithguard squad falls into the price range of 2-3 serpents. With 5th editions larger limitation on serpent mobility and greater allowance for foot troop mobility, I think that the primary advantage of the serpent over a screen of super tough units is largely reduced. So if you can get the wraithguard to screen 3+ other units (shouldn't be too hard to do) then it would seem that they are worth using.

And waithlords with D-cannons

By the way, you used to be able to do that in 2nd edition. I think mine still has one mounted on it.

Remember that you just need to see one model of the screened unit and yo can blast away. Screening won't be as easy as it seems like, I guess. Especially if he screening unit starts to take casualties.

I ignore the discussion about dubious screening maneuvers in this thread...

The Wraithguard adds an interesting choice to the troops selection because they are highly (x2) resistant. Without objective grabbing anymore, even tough units like jetbikes which used to hide to become tough, ain't that good anymore in this role. The other real tough troops choice are guardians due to numbers (and conceal).

Rangers are tough but have a low model count (and tend to run away if you don't avatar'em) and Dire Avengers are a bit too expensive to be chosen in numbers.

And the biggest disadvantage of them, namely slowness combined with short range weaponry, got degraded due to run. Ok, it's not that great but the added 3,5" a turn is very helpful to get them in the thick where they can blast away.

Greets
Schepp himself

Phoenix wrote:

And waithlords with D-cannons

By the way, you used to be able to do that in 2nd edition. I think mine still has one mounted on it.

We were able to do it at first in 3rd edition too, when the army list came out of the rule book. It was the 3rd ed. codex that took that ability away (of course it also gave the lord T8 instead of T7).

First off, I'm not sure how a TL scatter die works. I've seen some uses, but I've never seen a rule reference. In particular, I didn't see one in the leaked .pdf.

Second, WG are almost impossible to kill off, especially when concealed and fortuned. Now that the requirement for troops to score is one model remaining, that's going to be more than most people can accomplish, provided you're only using one (or at most two) squad of WG. To get a torrent wound on the spiritseer (no point in having them unless they can be a troops choice) or the farseer takes eleven(!!) wounds on T6. Offhand, the only things I can see doing that is a squadron of warwalkers with 6x scatterlaser (guided, with WG doomed).

Although not particularly "killy" the WG are tough, fearless, and good at both holding objectives and denying KP. Mine will see more use.

In the old rules, TL template weapons re-rolled the scatter die.

Now though I'd assume they'd re-roll to wound and to penetrate armor rolls.