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(Originally posted at http://revisitedproject.org/index.php?showtopic=233)

One of my projects for this year as part of our group's Revisited Project is to expand heavily on an area of 40K that is only half covered (or 2/3rds covered, kidna) of the 40K universe, that is, the Inquisition.

The model that GW was that each of the main three Ordos would get their own Codex. Their Codex would be a collection of Ordos specific Inquisitors and Henchmen, with some flavour units and the standard selection of Inquisitorial Storm Troopers, all backed up by that Ordo's Chamber Militant. In the case of the Daemonhuners, this was the Grey Knights. For Witch Hunters, this was the Sisters of Battle, and in the case of the unpublished (and probably-never-to-be-published) Alien Hunters, the Deathwatch.

I say the model that GW was taking as opposed to is taking because their Inquisition project seems to have come to a complete standstill, and I doubt we'll ever see a Codex: Alien Hunters. What we're more likely to get is a Codex: Inquisition, and this is where I want to start.

To begin with, I think that the Grey Knights and especially the Sisters of Battle are easily fleshed out enough to be represented with their own Codices. To this end, Codex: Daemonhunters will not contain GK units, and Codex: Witch Hunters won't contain SOB units. In their place we will actually have Codex: Grey Knights and Codex: Sisters of Battle.

The various Ordos will be brought together in Codex: Inquisition. In broad brush strokes, this would include:

1. Inquisitors that start as regular normal Inquisitors, without any particular allegiance to any particular Ordos. They have a standard range of equipment options and Henchman options.
2. They could be dedicated to one of the main Ordos, at which point they gain access to more specialist equipment for their Ordos as well as more specialised Henchman types.
3. Regular forces would be streamlined into the common line of 'Inquisitorial Storm Troopers', including some of the things already present in Codex: Daemonhuners Revisited, so Inquisitorial Storm Trooper Commissars, Rapid Responce Teams, Storm Trooper Recon Units, Sniper units, etc. Things like Death Cultists, Servitors, etc. would also become non-Ordo specific.
4. Allied Marines and Guard would remain largley the same.
5. Having different types of Inquisitors would open up greater options within the book, including detachments of Grey Knights, SOBs and things like that, along with the more Ordo specific units (Penitant Engines, for example).

The only problem with all this that I can see so far is the role that the third Chamber Militant - the Deathwatch - will play in this.

I don't think that the Deathwatch have enough actual depth to warrant a full Codex. We are expanding them to include Deathwatch Terminators, Assault Squads and Devastator Squads (and I have gone and built up a small force of Deathwatch Marines in preparation for this, including Terminators!), but even with this expansion, making a Codex: Deathwatch would really just be Codex: Marines w/Silver Arms & A Love of Bolters. It's not enough to make any army out of, unlike SOBs and GKs who are actually fully armed and independant forces. The Deathwatch aren't really an army. They have no standing units, they just have members of other Chapters serve tours with them before returning to their Chapter.

So at the moment they'd be included in Codex: Inquisition as part of their forces, but the hard part I'm having justifying is why they'd be around if an Ordo Xenos Inquisitor wasn't around. In Dawn of War they're there with a Xenos Inquisitor. In Kill Team the Deathwatch show up at the behest of, you guessed it, a Xenos Inquisitor. There's a few of them in the Eisenhorn books and Eisenhorn is - yup, you got it right - a Xenos Inquisitor.

So how can we justify them in a book of mixed Inquisitors when in some places they wouldn't make 'fluff-sense', especially when we can't give them a Codex of their own as they don't fight that way.

So I'm taking ideas and suggestions for Codex: Inquisition, and anything anyone may have for the DH or SOB Codex, as well as the specific 'Deathwatch Question' (including ammo types, specific wargear, etc.).

Thanks!!!

BYE

P.S. See also:

http://revisitedproject.org/index.php?act=idx
http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/revisited_project/

Well in my opinion you need to find a niche for them.

So if you think on it, what are things we can analyze?

Grey Knights get S6 in CC, move and fire 24", and storm bolters. That's essentially their main strength--long range shooting.

Sisters get BS4, Bolters, and a 3+ save; cheap. That's essentially their main strength--short range shooting.

Ordo Xenos should try to avoid shooting. What is it they do best in the fluff? Kill Aliens. How do you represent this? If you give them a 3+ to hit, it makes them seem like Black Templars and if you restrict it to just one race no one will take it because it isn't useful. If you give them high strength melee weapons, they'll run around punking tanks and feel like DH.

So for me, to make them flavorful I'd give them the following benefits:

Assault weapons only. Pistol + CCW should be standard.
I'd say heavy flamer and meltaguns should be their *only* options.

Always infiltrate, even if the mission doesn't allow it.

Instead of rending, give them poisoned attacks so they always wound on 4+.

Cost them around 20 points.

That should make up the bulk of their troops. I'd rule out shooty terminators and all vehicles except heavy support vehicles. So you could run DW preds. Chapter assets should be out, since you can infiltrate you won't need to deliver troops or have specialized equipment (more on this later).

I'd focus the HQ's on Inquisitors and Librarians, denying them Masters and Chaplains. That's for regular Space Marines.

The inquisitorial henchmen should not be gimpy combat servitors with power fists. Those are fine for regular inquisitors, who are either pretend CC or a long ranged shooting unit.

Make the Xenos Inquisitor a short ranged infiltrate style unit, with henchmen that give you reverse surveyor action. Weapons should be heavy flamer and inferno pistols. After you setup your infiltrating xenos squad, if you aren't 'detected' you should be able to scout them forward and get a round of firing. Having a 0-1 restriction on the unit will make this unit powerful but not overly so.
I'd say you'd want to have close ranged shooting henchmen, henchmen to allow the scouting move, henchmen to allow you to re-roll wounds with say flamers and CC attacks, and henchmen to with some close combat punch. Just keep everyone in 4+ carapace armor including the inquisitor and people shouldn't have a problem with the unit. It's dangerous, but a 4+ save on T3 models isn't hard to overwhelm.

The Librarians/Inquisitors should have template weapons as their primary psychic powers. I'd say a power (like destructor) but as a heavy flamer template you can 'throw' like a hellhounds out to 18". A second power could be give all models in a unit poisoned attacks. This would allow you to bring things like stormtroopers and still have them 'fit in' without raising their costs for having such abilities (which imo they shouldn't have).

Unlike the other two Ordos, I see the Alien Hunters as using everything and anything to make a force up, and should be able to field a diverse force of IG backed up by marines. That's how it always goes in the fluff. The reason I tossed in all the restrictions is so the DW marines are the focus of the list. Since this isn't a real chapter, the 'rare' SM equipment like LS, Dreads, Vindis, and LR should not be included--those are chapter assets the chapters won't give up.

So I see a list going something like this:

HQ

0-1 Inquisitor
0-1 Librarian with DW Kill Team
No Allied HQ's.

Elite

DW Kill Team (1+ per other Ordos choice)
0-1 Veteran squad (like the Tyrannic War Veterans)
0-1 Assault Terminators (1 heavy weapon only, flamer or cyclone--no asscannons)

Troops

2+ DW Squads (1+ per other Ordos choice)
Stormtroopers
0-1 Inducted Guard Infantry Platoons
0-1+ Conscripts (these should be required for each regular infantry platoon bought)
0-1 Sisters squad
0-1 GK squad

Fast Attack

DW Assault Marines (1+ per other Ordos choice)
0-1 Seraphim
0-1 Sentinels (heavy flamer or close combat option)

Heavy

DW Preds only. (1+ per other Ordos choice)
0-1 Leman Russ (no demolishers).
0-1 Exorcist

You don't need to restrict other Ordos equipment, they'll give it if they have it but DW equipment should be in the majority. The way you do this is for every other Ordos giving equipment the DW has to have 1 of their own. Since it should be assumed GK will withdraw when Aliens come around, and Sisters won't give too much help since they won't withdraw when Aliens come around...well, you can see how such a list would look like.

Lots of DW, maybe some IG, a smattering a Sisters, and a handful of GK.

DW Preds should use DW ammo, btw. That's what the 'DW' is for.

To differentiate the DW kill teams from the DW troops--I think the DW troops should get infiltrate, heavy flamers, and meltaguns. The DW kill teams should be elites (and the 'retinue' for librarians) and should look similar to what DW does now. Essentially they should be small fire support teams with move and fire weapons that have limited anti-tank capability and limited range.

It's a very 'in your face' army list, with serious restrictions and a very real limit on how it deals with tanks and the like. You can run it as a balanced army, however, with a little IG support. Despite being able to infiltrate, it'll still be basic marine stats going against faster opponents so I'd recommend a way to mitigate this. I think adaptations like the ones offered in the Kroot Mercenary list (not all of them, just a few) for DW marines could make them even more flavorful.

Example: You kill some Tyranid warriors, and rip out their adrenal glands. Suddenly you can be I5 for +1 points per model. I'd recommend only allowing 1 'upgrade' per DW model.

I'd focus on WS, I, and Fleet as S, T, A and BS are handled by other game factions better (like Nurgle, Khorne, etc).

I'd also recommend for Alien Hunters the ability to regroup even if enemy are within 6" so long as the squad is at or above 50%. To me, this should be solely for DW members. Granted this means they'll auto-rally alot, but given they'll be 'stuck in' relatively quickly they shouldn't run from Aliens right away and get a escort off the board.
of course, under 50% they'd be treated like any other marines.

Last but not least, I think most of the DW weaponry should be limited AP (so they aren't marine killers) and focused around wounding high toughness models using strength X attacks. Heavy bolters, autocannons, etc should all have ammo so they wound on their S unless it would go above 4+, then it wounds on 4+. After all, a mini ricket in a gaunts ass will still kill it even with a warhead full of mutagenic acid--but the same mini-rocket will hurt a carnifex or wraithlord on a 4+.

Hope that helps.

One of the things we always wanted to emphasise is that we don't want to invalidate existing models - that's GW's job - so anything that exists now, stays. We can invent new things, but we're not taking anything away (as much as I want to remove Scout Bikers from all history...).

Because of that, the 'bolter' slant on Deathwatch has to stay. One of the big things in GWs rules, as stupidly overpriced as they were, was the idea of different Ammo types for specialist bolters.

To that end, the main weapons of the Deathwatch would be:

Bolters
Stormbolters
Heavy Bolters
Missile Launchers

With funky ammo types for all of them.

The squads I was looking to include would be:

Deathwatch Veterans (ie. Marines who had served multiple tours with the DW)
Deathwatch Terminators
Deathwatch Tactical
Deathwatch Assault
Deathwatch Devastator

Now that looks like Codex Marines, and that is intentional. These DW units are made up of all sorts of different Marines, not all of them from Codex Chapters, so to make things simpler they organise them in very simple squads.

My Deathwatch army that I'm in the process of building (I have all the pieces, just have to actually build it), has:

Deathwatch Veteran Squad (10-man)
Deathwatch Terminator Squad (6-man/2 Cyclones)
Deathwatch Terminator Assault Squad (8-man and can have 10-men, as I have two spare Assault Termies w/Cyclones)
2 Deathwatch Tac Squads (10-men each)
Deathwatch Assault Squad (10-men)
Deathwatch Devastator Squad (10-men)

Included in this are 4 Heavy Bolters and 4 Missile Launchers, so I can either have both tacs with 2 HBs each while the Devs get the MLs, or the Tacs get 2 MLs each and the Devs get the HBs.

The Tac and Dev Squad sergeants are getting those cool new Dev Sergeant Backpakc with all the weird technical gear (and there will be rules for it).


Generally the emphasis with fighting style I wanted the DW to have is that where the Grey Knights use psychic powers and the Sisters use faith, the Deathwatch use cutting edge technology to defeat their alien foes.

General ideas we have are the (obvious) Hellfire shells for anti-Tyranid work, explosive bolts for anti-Ork, acid-shells for Anti-Necron, electrical for Anti-Tau (the idea being the electricity destroys the air-borne pheremones, sending the Tau into confusion) and psychic rounds to 'stun' psychic opponents (like Eldar).

So now we have three things to balance:

1. Can't make you choose an ammo typ, otherwise you'd just choose the most general (Hellfire), and not bother with the others.
2. The upgrade has to include all the ammo types (so +20 points per squad, +50 points per squad, whatever) meaning whatever army your facing you just are assumed to have the right ammo for the situation (ie. you face Tyranids, you guys with the upgrade have Hellfire, next game it's Orks, then you get the Frag shells automatically). This has to be costed correctly.
3. That has be balanced by the fact that you're getting weapons made to kill a specific opponent, and someone playing, say, Orks might not like the fact that your bolters are blast-markering him out of existance when in the last game your guys warp-shocked his Eldar out of existance, all for the same points costs.

So while I like your idea, I don't want them to be a HTH force. The DW Veterans, yes, and they'll all have True Grit (as all our Marines in our rules have True Grit), but I want them to be about using tech rather than special powers or faith in the emperor.

Infiltrate is interesting, and there's a precedent for that as well in the fluff.

BYE

Well the problem I see with keeping bolters is...

I won't want to play it. Nobody else will either.

I can make a better army without all the extra stuff, in the end if you don't separate the DW in a fairly radical manner nobody's going to bother.

As you said, Silver Marines with Bolters really is quite boring. Making for a different army style is critical to getting players willing to spend money.

No idea what you're going on about with the 'invalidating models' stuff. Kill Teams are specialized shooters and DW troops aren't.

All the extra ammo is where you seem to be focused, but it's still a bolter. Well, been there and done that. Alien Hunters should do new things. True Grit marines isn't new, it's called Space Wolves. Until bolters hurt MC, and S4 hurts MC...True Grits pretty useless--especially since you can't charge after you double tap.

Nobody plays DW marines because they're just regular marines with expensive kit. Until you fix that, it's very very dull--and for once, GW recognized that and didn't make more rules for them.

Btw, DW + Cutting edge tech....is against the whole fluff of 40k. Why even bother trying to pass that one off?

No it's not.

They're the one's using the high-tech gear. There's even a Deathwatch story where one of them has wrist mounted missile launchers and all sorts of other crap that isn't standard kit.

High-Tech isn't against 40K fluff. Lots of stuff in 40K is very high tech... most people just don't know how to use it, make it and almost everybody can't get it. The Inquisition is an exception. 40K certainly isn't low tech.

And GW didn't make new rules for them because... well... they're GW. Near enough is good enough for them. They probably thought they were great! Really fluffy! Unfortunately for GW they don't see that fluff can also = powerful, and probably never will. Whatever the case, Deathwatch are specialist alien-hunting Marines, and as such they should play like Marines that are specialised in alien-hunting.

The way that they do that is by shooting them, with advanced technological gizmos like the M.40 targeter, specialist ammo (psychic beacon ammo used to track Necrons back to their tomb worlds - you've read that story right?).

BYE

I for one really like your slant on Deathwatch. I like that you're keeping the two heavies for tac squads, it seems balanced fine so long as they are limited to Heavy Bolter and Missile Launcher.

Are you keeping the suspensor rule, because you don't mention it.

As for ammo types you could just let them all have special ammo standard, and before the battle they have to pick which one they want, and they all get the same: Metal Storm, Inferno bolts or Kraken bolts.

Hellfire and any other special ammo types could be created for Heavy Bolters and Missile Launchers.

I like Stelek's idea regarding HQ. Traditionally they've had 'Captains' and Librarians, but no ld10 3W Force Commanders of uber.

You could have for HQ a 1+ Inquisitor Lord. WS5 BS5 S3 T3 I5 ld10 3+ with Iron Will and some psychic powers. Then a second HQ could be whatever, including a Death Watch Librarian or Captain. And then instead of henchmen he has a Death Watch command squad of some kind, or else put him in Terminator armour and he gets a Death Watch Terminator command squad, possibly with a slight slant towards assault rather than the shooty elites one. Maybe master-craft all his weapons for free ie say his base points cost is 10 points more.

Then if you still wanted a normal bodyguard you could take an elite 'helper' inquisitor who was more generic and had the usual options including maybe a new henchman. Maybe something that makes the squad fearless against all those scary Xenos?

I like the Missile Launcher but I honestly don't know what do with it. Instead of different ammo types maybe make the HB hellfire and borrow the blast master rules for the ML? If you're making two missile launchers in each Tac squad a 60 point upgrade (30 pts each) they better be worth it.

They've also always had access to special weapons.

And you could give them the usual inquisition targeter rule to replace the old targeters.

I like the Idea of the units having the choice of which ammo to fire. It's fluffy because you'd think that Xeno hunters would come prepared to fight the aliens they're after. I do think this ability is going to have to be priced accordingly as it could convey a pretty significant advantage.

I think Stelek might be onto something with an emphasis on close combat. Perhaps Deathwatch could have the "Preferred Enemy" rule for whichever opponent they're facing. Again this would have to be priced accordingly, but it would make sense from a fluff perspective. Marines chosen for Deathwatch are suppose to be veterans from their respected chapters. The inquisition is supposed to have unlimitted access to the resources of the imperium. It would make sense that the warriors they would choose for a mission against (insert type of xeno) would be warriors who had experience fighting against (insert type of xeno).

Have you thought about perhaps using the Tyranid hunter rules or atleast allowing tyranid hunters as an elite choice?

Maybe instead of all models having the preferred enemy rule, maybe an elite xeno hunter squad could have it. Perhaps HQ and Veteran squads can choose preferred enemy?

I think there should also be Xeno specific inquisitor powers. Many of the psychic powers the inquisitors get in Codex: Demon Hunters are too demon specific. Maybe expanding the powers that target demons to also include all types of models might help.

Well I think bolters are boring. Even with new ammo types, unless you bring Ap3 ammo players won't want to play DW.
They'll perceive it as a weaker list, and that's bad. If you make it as flexible as marines...why play marines?

Just saying 'new ammo bins!' does not an army make. You've got to break the mold completely to get people interested.

Thing is True Grit bolters is what Death Watch has always been about.

For 20 points you get True Grit, Frag and Melta bombs and the choice of an ammo type for 5 pts each. They also have a Heavy Bolter that fires like a Psycannon with an additional firing mode and some kind of weird bolter option (M. 40 Targeter) that I think comes from 2nd edition or something.

Once you have that, you can add vets with close combat weapon options including lightning claws.

And they don't infiltrate but they deep strike, but I don't see why they couldn't infiltrate if H.B.M.C. thinks it's warranted by the fluff.

What I'm trying to say is that the bolter/ technology thing really is a neat direction. Especially since it actually goes backwards and relies on bolters, Heavy Bolters and Missile Launchers. None of that fancy Lascannon stuff. This isn't tech adept of mars, we're talking hacks on previously existing equipment.

I'm not saying it's a good idea, it's just an idea, but you could have a heavy support or elites squad with weaponry based on alien tech. S6 plasma weapons that don't overheat, S5 small arms with pinning, Lance weapons, maybe ... S3 AP3 Living Ammunition, that sort of thing. Some kind of psyker disruptor. It doesn't have to be Space Marine it could be an Inquisition squad.

I'm not sure how standard Inquisitor weapon servitors would come into this.

I also think each squad should pay an extra 10/15 points and get a terminator honours vet mandatory. Similar to GK.

My comments on a combined Inquisition Codex are here:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/206434.page

Perhaps you might dig throught that for inspiration.

Stelek:

Just saying 'new ammo bins!' does not an army make. You've got to break the mold completely to get people interested.

I disagree. It really depends on just how drastically different these ammo types are. The way GW currently has the ammo types is really unsatisfactory, so it's no wonder DW have no pull. What if, on the other hand, Metal Storm ammunition was assault 3? What if Inferno Bolts always wounded on no worse than a 4+? What if Kraken Bolts ignored armour saves on a 6 to hit? Make the ammo types different enough and scary enough and I think they could very well serve as the basis of an entire army, just as Faith is the basis of Sisters.

This may make the codex look a bit too chaos-esque, but what if you had specialized squads to hunt each type of alien? It would allow for diversification, and a little more balance than everyone in the army packing an anti-opponent bolter. Perhaps then you could have the veterans' carry all the types of ammunition and choose what they use at the start of battle to really distinguish them from the rank and file.

Faith isn't the basis of Sisters--not since faith was nerfed. It's a nice add-on, but you win with Sisters by virtue of 11 point, 3+ save, BS4, LD9 bolter squads.

All that is needed is a selectable fire mode that toggles between generally useful AP3 and +2S for the DW weapons. Fluff-wise the toggle could represent DW always having the proper supply of Toxin, Hellfire, Kraken or other rounds.

Bolter:
- R24" S4 AP3 Rapid Fire
- R24" S6 AP5 Rapid Fire
If you're bundling in True Grit, then the basic Deathwatch Marine is adds +5 pts per model.

Suspensors should simply make the firing model Slow & Purposeful.

Heavy Bolter
- R36" S5 AP3 Heavy 3
- R36" S7 AP4 Heavy 4

Missile Launcher is already modal, but you could convert the Frag to "Metalstorm" using the Large 5" Blast, while the Krak missile might become S8 AP1.

With Suspensors bundled in, the cost should be an extra +10 pts per weapon.

Simple USR and ammo swaps make DW dangerous enough without requiring a lot of complicated rules.

GW's fluff has always emphasized bolters and ammo types on the DW, along with small surgical teams hitting the enemy in the backfield using the most advanced tech the Imperium has at its disposal.

A DW force should have deep strike or infiltrate on the marines, to show them teleporting or sneaking into position.

Some "Teleport Assault Teams" as fast attack, that are set up with bolters and cool ammo + 2 special/ hvy bolters, that can teleport around using a gizmo held by a techmarine would be cool and fluffy.

There could be a marine "escort" for some experimental weaponry as a heavy support choice.

Also, as noted in the Inquistior Rule Book, the Deathwatch stands as sentries over long dead alien races such as the Cyranax Watchers. I would expect these "Sentry" squads would have a long term deployment and have specialized for a specific environment common to their charge. In addition to the various bolter ammo, they would have access to exotic weaponry to handle the most alien of aliens. Gravaton guns, Neural Shredders, Web Launchers, or even alien kit would be possible.

The flip side would be "Containment" teams, where the marines would have "non-lethal" weapons in order to subdue specimens for study. Like Kryptman capturing Genestealers to release on the orks, such missions would require Marines, perhaps even terminators, with thunderhammers, and weapons that force pinning or fall back, (Needle Weapons, Bolas Launchers, Halucinagen Grenades etc). Such a squad be able to cause some damage, but be more along the lines of "disrupt" units in epic, reducing the movement and fire of enemy units.

Stelek wrote:Faith isn't the basis of Sisters--not since faith was nerfed. It's a nice add-on, but you win with Sisters by virtue of 11 point, 3+ save, BS4, LD9 bolter squads.

Stelek, get your head out of the game for a second. I'm talking about fluff. GKs do psychics, SoBs do faith, DW do technology. It's the way it works.

BYE

Yes, I realise saying 'get your head out of the game' is a very weird statement to make when talking about rules brainstorming... but the point still stands.

BYE

Stelek, I'm talking about the army's "pull"--the gimmick or twist that makes them fun to/worth playing. Faith makes playing Sisters feel very different from just playing melta/flamer-heavy Marines, and ammo types, if they're interesting enough, can do the same for DW.

I suppose. I still think the Kill Teams should be ammo users and the other non-shooty DW teams should be CC specialists.

You can create all kinds of 'tech' for DW and stick it on the characters to give it a different 'feel'.

Just reducing the cost of DW ammo and giving them access to combat squads gives Deathwatch lots of flexibility they currently lack.

Giving the armour piercing ammo (5th ed) rending would be a good move. Even in a pure Deathwatch/ Inquisition army there shouldn't be more than a three or four of squads of Deathwatch troops.

Maybe taking DW should give other troops Death Cult Assassins and Stormtroopers upgrades, such as preferred enemy or special ammo types.

I had a couple ideas that I think keep to the spirit of what is trying to be done here. First of all I like the idea that the DW should be a heavily tech oriented group. This translates to a certain number of Tech points the army gets based off of the number of points played and if certain units are played. The points could be spent from a predetermined armory list.

A few examples would be: Upgrade your StormTroopers and/or Marine Scouts with Camoline (spelling?) cloaks for X amount of points. Upgrade any unit with motion detectors/Imagers that reveal hidden or infiltrating models for X amount of points. Or the favorite, upgrade a unit with bolters with special ammo for X cost.

The other thought I had that I am sure will cause major complaints is using the high tech soldiers as special ability denial. What if the DW could minimize some of the special advantages the other races had when fighting them? I'll be the first to admit I am not totally sure how this would work in game terms, but my thought is with horde armies have special bolter rounds that act like Str 3 frag grenades (Or maybe Str 4 the model hit directly and Str 3 to everyone under the blast template). For fast armies, fast tracker upgrades that allow the DW to shoot with their normal BS no matter how far the model traveled. For Necrons, bolter rounds that add +1 to the difficulty of standing back up.

Like i said, just a few ideas.

Well one idea, in the realm of 'ability denial' was a type of round that blocks out psychic abilities.

Using the example from Eisenhorn, where he collapses a void shield to create what is essentially a psychic EMP, that shuts down an Alpha Level (ie. planet-splitting power level) psyker for a short period of time.

The idea was, to combat Eldar, they could have a more localised version of that effect, that shuts down their ability to cast psychic powers (so, kill models in a unit with a Warlock, the Warlock's power stops for a turn).

Is that really powerful? Yes... but isn't that what Deathwatch are specifically made for - hunting aliens!

BYE

H.B.M.C. wrote:
The idea was, to combat Eldar, they could have a more localised version of that effect, that shuts down their ability to cast psychic powers (so, kill models in a unit with a Warlock, the Warlock's power stops for a turn)

I think as long as only a few select models in the DW have that ability, it would be fine. I guess my only thought is how do you prevent these Alien Hunters from being just as effective against Chaos models with psyker abilities. Maybe that isn't a really problem? You don't want them being a one trick pony, but on the other hand you don't want them to be Jack of all Trades.

The reason i like the denial abilities is it is pretty unqiue. You can add new weapons to an Army all day, and you get a cookie cutter army. However if these guys can do something no one else can AND it is effective...that is when people want to play them. You can't neuter the opponents Army with these abilities, but you can try to level the playing ground.

Denial abilities like no Psykers suck because they go against the core tenet of 40k which is that everybody can do their special thing. You start getting the armies built specifically to hose certain armies, and that's just wrong.

And yeah, I have a philosophical objection to Living Metal as it is currently worded. Living Metal should be that all hits are Glancing and can force the opponent to re-roll any damage results. So this way, opponents still get their cool Lance and Melta effects, but they just dissipate on the final result.

The only trouble with "No psyker for you!" abilities is that WH already have them, and they are not too exciting. Most seem to have that issue. I would be worried about making an army filled with tricks that either hose your opponant because he happens to be their target, or does nothing because he isn't.
I really prefer the "pick your ammo" idea for that reason. I also like the heavy infiltration abilities idea, since if you are going to load down Marines in all this expensive kit, one would expect them to have a very small casualty rate, to the point that they are treated like modern special forces teams.
Perhaps as a balance to that, instead of just having DW Marines in the codex, you could also have human enforcers, either Arbites, sneaky light infantry, or lynch mob types. Something more interesting than Storm Troopers at least.

Another fun thing might be a Xenos Specialist upgrade, sort of a 0-X HQ that can be added to units to give them a bonus to wound in melee vs xenos, but if they lose the melee, half the wounded get returned to the unit. Sort of like he is good at getting them captured, but if he is chased off, they retrieve their prisoners. Hopefully it would have better rules, but that sort of idea...

The way I see it, you have 2 options.

The first is to give the Deathwatch a particular ammo type based on who they are playing. Vs Orks, they automatically get Metalstorm rounds, vs. Chaos they get Krakens, vs. Tyranids they get Hellfires, and so on. This isn't very flexible, by design, because you get what you get. The problem here is that balance could be a problem. Each ammo type has to be as roughly effective vs. the target as each other ammo type vs. their targets. Otherwise the potential for, say, sucking vs. Tau but destroying Nids is very high.

The second is to create an array of shots and let the Deathwatch select which type each time they fire. This could be easier to cost properly, as the array of ammo types comes in one big lump that everybody gets. It also creates a scary amount of versatility. You could have Deathwatch Marines Metalstorm some deamonettes, Kraken some Chaos Marines, and then Hellfire the Demon Prince all in the same game.

Additionally, this is a great place to bring back the best of the old, wierd tech the Imperium had in RT and V2. One per army superweapons, like replacing one missile launcher with a conversion beamer or a graviton gun replacing a special weapon. Phase blades, displacement fields, personal teleporters, vortex grenades, or alien tech like agonizers, gauss guns, wraith weapons and more. I'd limit things to something like 5-6 total choices, no more than 2-3 selections and no duplicates.

I'd also like to see radical inquisitors that are actually *radical* instead of just sucky. Maybe they'd lead alien mercs and actually use demon weapons. After all, Xenos Inquisitors are the most likely to be out away from the imperium proper and people would care less if they went nuts.

Suggestions for ammo effects.

Deathwatch Supplies: Any Deathwatch Marine using a Bol Pistol, Bolter, Storm Bolter, Heavy Bolter, or Missile Launcher may use one of the ammo types below each time they fire.

Metalstorm: Each unsaved wound (maybe just wounds for a bigger effect) caused by Metalstorm ammo allows one additional shot from that weapon. Attacks triggered by Metalstorm do not gain the Metalstorm effect.

Kraken: Improve AP by 1.

Hellfire: Wounds caused by hellfire rounds always wound on at least a 4+. Unsaved wounds double.

Psyk-Out: Models/Units wounded by Psyk-out rounds cannot use psychic powers until the end of the opponent's next turn. Monsterous Creatures and Independent Characters are not affected if the unit they lead is wounded.

Gray Goo: Negates FNP saves.

Suspensors&Targeters would make heavy weapons capable of firing in assault at 24".

hI. I've found this quite interesting, i loved the idea of kill teams when they were in WD and brought one, and have also been waiting for a xenos hunters codex. so here's my thoughts -

1 - Kill teams in WD were way over priced. i had a 5 man squad plus rhino and yes they were tooled to the teeth but they were still a combat squad costing nearly 600pts! it's amazing how fast they die, not only becuase they're basic marines and being 'special and scary looking' get targetted quite early on. cut the price or give them the bolters with nice ammo at the standard cost. If you want to 'penanlise' someone due to playing with a rarer army add in 0-1 restrictions etc.

2 - kill teams are that - kill teams. no idea myself of what else they have but i see a kill team as being a bit like the scene in starship troopers - a squad 'moping' up but still able to deal with any threat (in a reasonable quanitity) hence heavy bolters that can move and fire etc. also keep the 'pistol' grip for bolters - if they get charged by an unexpected alien they don't need to swap boler for pitol then, improving the cc ability. the bolter models also show the different magazines for the different ammo types - they should be able to select which ammo on a turn by turn not a game by game. Yes some ammo is good against a certain race but most races still have vehicles AND soft squidy things. if they're going to just have one ammo type they might as well just use the standard all round bolt shell.

3 - the pyschi null effect - personally i would say a xenos hunter would have anti psychi stuff - they don't know what to expect apart from some sort of enemy psycher. My thought is go with a sor of Eishenhorn/Ravnoro approach and have one of the henchman as a 'blank' - no pyschic powers within 12 or 15 inches (15 to give an extra safe and cover the inquisitor) of the blank. could also be allowed an upgrade to allow the ability to be blocked like in ravenor. this could even go as far as disrupting the tyranid synaspse thing if the synapse creature was blanked from being too close - perfect for ALIEN HUNTERS.

just rememebr deathwatch are STANDARD MARINEs with improved equipment, but have fewer numebrs. they should be quite 'powerful' compared to their points cost on the battlefield but have few numbers in my opinion. If you wanted to run with a larger DW force or even a DW army then I would say look at doing somthing like '150 pts' for the first squad, but to get extra squad/termies then you have to pay a 'bolt' on fee. That way you're keeping the fluff, not penalising an iquisitor for taking 1 squad who they likly have access to and wil fulfil a specialist role in a game but to take larger proportions of a specialist force it's going to cost, resources fluff wise, pts games wise.

Just my thoughts.

The one thing you boyz are missing out on is tanks. If they are regular marines and you send in the big bad Deathwatch boys to knock out a bunch of nidz, then it should give you the option to f.ex take flamer sponsons. That would make it anti-nid (excluding Nidzilla which seems to be the most common now days :( ) and fluffwise would make sense. A dred with the ability to reroll attacks against aliens or the having preferred enemy against whatever race of aliens you were fighting could also be quite nice fluffwise instead of having the tanks be plain old vanilla marine tanks. It would probably get really unbalanced unless you had the points cost for a decked out Deathwatch squad as high as that of a decked out GK squad or made the special abilities cost more than Bill Gates makes in a year. Which again would make them rare.

Oh they'll have Dreads. Don't worry about that...

BYE

I think it is always a failure to make an army that is tailored with special rules towards defeating a certain opponent because against that opponent the army is too powerful and against any other opponent the army is under-powered.

That makes the army concept only useful in pre-arranged games, which is never a good idea IMHO if you want an army that will be popular to play.


With that in mind I think it is a big mistake to make xeno-hunters anti-this or anti-that. No matter what road you try to take it is ultimately going to end in design failure if the army is loaded up with special rules that only affect certain enemy types.


Instead, I would just focus on the concept of what you can bring to the army to make it unique and not worry about how it performs against any particular enemy.

In my mind, what makes the xeno-hunters unique is that they use cutting-edge technology and although this hasn't been explored yet, in some cases they incorporate unstable xeno-technology.

If I were making this codex, that would be the core idea I would build on: Xeno-hunters have crazy powerful, but unstable weaponry and wargear.

This idea sets them apart from any other imperial army and would put them more of a cross between Eldar (great weapons) and Orks (random effects).


Now, the existing Deatwatch rules have the different ammo types, but to me, that would really just be the very base where you start. I would have things like S10 Lascannons that have the 'gets hot' rule, Space Marine Jetbikes (that move like Eldar Jetbikes) but whenever they Turbo boost or make the 'free' assault move to 'jump back' they have to take a test to see if one of the jetbikes has reached its limits and dies.

Maybe SM assault units that have the ability to warp through the battlefield either like a Necron's Veil of Darkness or else like a Warp Spider Jump Generator, but again in either case there is always a random chance that models die each time they jump.

Dreadnoughts with a Tau-style stealth generator that can possibly burn out, etc.

A Space Marine army based on this idea would be powerful but would obviously be expensive and the random nature of it's gear would make it a unique playing experience among imperial armies. And unlike Orks, the randomness wouldn't be what effect the weapon/gear performs but rather whether or not you lose some models. In other words, you could count on your weapons being powerful but you wouldn't be sure how much damage you were going to end up doing to yourself throughout the game too.

Inquisitors could be armed with weird alien weaponry like sonic blasters, web pistols, neural shredders, etc.


Radical Inquisitors without any deathwatch could REALLY be fun.

They could really start to incorporate xeno-weapons into their armies. Leman Russes with Tau Railguns mounted on 'em "Akira" style with giant tubes snaking out of the weapon into a giant power generator mounted on the vehicle (and as usual, the Railgun would always have a chance of blowing up when it fires).

Sentinels with Tau markerlight projectors on it that do some sort of modified version of the Tau markerlight rules.

Inquisitorial stormtroopers with Shiruken Catapults, Tau Pulse Rifles or Ork Shootas.

Radical Inquisitorial retinues could be crazy with strange alien creatures never seen on the table before in 40k.

Maybe a couple of different common mercenary xeno units available like Kroot, Demuirg or Ork Kommandos.

You could even allow a Radical inquisitorial force to ally with a single alien army, either Eldar or Tau. This would allow you to take an Inquisitor and a few unit types along with an Eldar or Tau army or allow you to take an Inquisitorial army with a few specific Eldar or Tau units (just like DHs and WHs can currently ally with Space Marines or Imperial Guard).


THIS would be a fun, unique, interesting army that people would want to play just because it is cool. While it may not be particularly effective against any specific army (including any specific xeno-army) it also wouldn't be particularly ineffective against any specific army type either. And that is why it would work.



Edit: Oh, I should mention that I would dump the different types of ammo for the Deathwatch because, again that forces players to pigeon-hole their army into being good against one type of foe and bad against another. Instead I would just use a generic rule that represents that Xeno-hunters always show up to battle with the right ammo to face their opponent (why else would they be called in?), even if that opponent is (obviously xeno-controlled) space marines.

They would have the 5th edition poisioned rule (always need a '4+' to wound unless they would normally need less than that to wound) and I would say that they always have the proper armor piercing round equipped so that their opponent always makes their armor save with a -1 modifier. I know armor save modifiers are forbidden (although I think you use them in your revisited rules) I think this would be an acceptable case to incorporate it's use.