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So, this army goes away from my usual 'flex' concept and just let's everyone do their thing as best they can.

The Dreads and the HQ's go after enemy vehicles.

The Space Marines go after enemy infantry.

The Ven goes after the baddest thing the other guy has.

It's a fun list, but is by no means unbeatable.

2000 Pts - Space Wolves Roster - Unnamed

1 Wolf Guard Battle Leader @ 123 Pts
Power Weapon (x1); Cyclone Missile Launcher; True Grit; Wolf Pelt
1 Terminator Armor @ [15] Pts
1 Wolf Pelt @ [3] Pts

1 Wolf Guard Battle Leader @ 123 Pts
Power Weapon (x1); Cyclone Missile Launcher; True Grit; Wolf Pelt
1 Terminator Armor @ [15] Pts
1 Wolf Pelt @ [3] Pts

1 Venerable Dreadnought @ 188 Pts
Assault Cannon; Dreadnought CCW; Storm Bolter; Drop Pod; Smoke Launchers
1 Drop Pod @ [30] Pts
Storm Bolter; Inertial Guidance System

1 Dreadnought @ 170 Pts
Dreadnought CCW; Heavy Flamer; Twin Linked Lascannon; Drop Pod; Extra Armor
1 Drop Pod @ [30] Pts
Storm Bolter; Inertial Guidance System

1 Dreadnought @ 170 Pts
Dreadnought CCW; Heavy Flamer; Twin Linked Lascannon; Drop Pod; Extra Armor
1 Drop Pod @ [30] Pts
Storm Bolter; Inertial Guidance System

1 Dreadnought @ 170 Pts
Dreadnought CCW; Heavy Flamer; Twin Linked Lascannon; Drop Pod; Extra Armor
1 Drop Pod @ [30] Pts
Storm Bolter; Inertial Guidance System

7 Grey Hunter Pack @ 176 Pts
Close Combat Weapon (x6); Bolter (x6); Power Fist (x1); Flamer; Drop Pod; True Grit
1 Drop Pod @ [30] Pts
Storm Bolter; Inertial Guidance System

7 Grey Hunter Pack @ 176 Pts
Close Combat Weapon (x6); Bolter (x6); Power Fist (x1); Flamer; Drop Pod; True Grit
1 Drop Pod @ [30] Pts
Storm Bolter; Inertial Guidance System

7 Grey Hunter Pack @ 176 Pts
Close Combat Weapon (x6); Bolter (x6); Power Fist (x1); Flamer; Drop Pod; True Grit
1 Drop Pod @ [30] Pts
Storm Bolter; Inertial Guidance System

7 Grey Hunter Pack @ 176 Pts
Close Combat Weapon (x6); Bolter (x6); Power Fist (x1); Flamer; Drop Pod; True Grit
1 Drop Pod @ [30] Pts
Storm Bolter; Inertial Guidance System

7 Grey Hunter Pack @ 176 Pts
Close Combat Weapon (x6); Bolter (x6); Power Fist (x1); Flamer; Drop Pod; True Grit
1 Drop Pod @ [30] Pts
Storm Bolter; Inertial Guidance System

7 Grey Hunter Pack @ 176 Pts
Close Combat Weapon (x6); Bolter (x6); Power Fist (x1); Flamer; Drop Pod; True Grit
1 Drop Pod @ [30] Pts
Storm Bolter; Inertial Guidance System

Total Roster Cost: 2000

I am not sure why you are posting so many build requests, but I noticed that your lists have inaccuracies in several posts.

Your previous Black Templar List did not have the price listing for Abhor the Witch (just pointing it out, that you have to purchase it, although you did have 14 points left).

I am not sure what codex you are using, but WGBL cannot purchase cyclone missile launchers, assault cannons, or any other Wolf Guard wargear. They are independent characters that purchase kit from the armory. Thus, your HQ cannot be armed with such weapons, and this list would have to be somewhat reworked.

I get alot of build requests.

The price for ATW is included in the price of the squads that must take it, it just doesn't show in the text summary that AB provides. If AB has an error I usually notice it, but I looked again and didn't see any error. The prices were correct.

Regarding SW, this has something to do with GW changed the base rulebook upon which they draw and updated the rules. It's been like that in AB for many years now, if it's wrong it's been wrong for a long time. Probably be my fault, I did alot of the conversion work from AB 2 to AB 3.

Maybe Ghaz can shed some light. I'll PM him, see what he thinks.

@Raon - The whole thing about WGBL carrying terminator heavy weapons is a RAW thing. There've been a variety of debates about them. Do a search in YMDC about them. The Adepticon FAQ (which there has also been much debate about) this WGBL's as being able to carry them.

It's not a big deal, the SW codex will not have WGBL anyway so by the time I get the army finished it'll be...finished. lol

Yes, the SW codex has the unfortunate problem of having the same name for independent characters and elite squads, im sure they will modify that (along with taking out every single option) in the next codex. But it has been addressed in the FAQ that they are basically treated as normal independent characters and not WG with stats. I really wish they could get assault cannons/cyclones

The Army Builder is bad for errors. In your Black Templars list, the army's vow must be purchsed at an additional cost when you get your Emperor's Champion. It is free for any squads of Black Templars, yes, but it still must be purchased with the EC, and adding up the list, unless I am mistaken, it isnt in there. (Just saying!)


SW FAQ Updated 11/2/04

"A Wolf Guard Battle Leader does not count as one of the 20 Wolf Guard models you are allowed ot have in a Space Wolf Armory."

"A Wolf Guard Battle Leader does not use the Wolf Guard column in the Space Wolf Armory when selecting weapons and wargear."

etc.


In the codex, WGBL may purchase additional equipment from the armory, but they cant purchase Wolf Guard specific items from the WG entry, nor armory items at WG prices, so im not sure how this isnt a clear restriction. Like I said, I wish a cheap shooty WGBL was an option, but they are simply cheaper versions of Wolf Lords.

Raon, I'm not going to debate with you about this - there's plenty of discussion elsewhere in the forum about it. Check the discussions here to see people's reasoning:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/147679.page#147788

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/206132.page#221585

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/122494.page#122528

I'm not saying it's one way or another. I originally felt like WGBL's shouldn't be able to take the heavy weapons, but there are some pretty convincing arguments.

All I'm saying is that the legality of it is still up for debate and that GW's FAQ entry does not actually clarify the issue.

I guess the reason it's been left the way it has in AB is because GW hasn't said a thing to anyone about their SW army at GT's with the following exceptions:

1) If any part drop pods, ALL must drop pod.
2) You get 1 Venerable Dread per SW army, period.

Everything else isn't considered game-breaking, so it's apparently allowed.

I don't worry about it myself, primary reason being SW drop pod armies CAN be powerful but are not overly so by any stretch of the imagination.

It appears the GW designers have taken a hands-off approach for this self same reason.

WGBL w/heavy weapons.....Yes, I read it as they would not be able to use the heavy weapon, and I can see how another MIGHT have a claim that they could, but as you stated it is worthless to argue here as GW hasnt clarified the issue in nearly a decade at print. In any case it would probably be better to use them without the WG heavy weapons to avoid the comp hate in tournaments.

I didnt say anything about the Dreads, but that issue seems more clear as they are two separate entries in the codex "0-1 Venerable Dreadnought' in SW Codex vs. "Dreadnought" in SM Codex, where the 'Venerable' title is an upgrade purchased for the Dread. Ive seen armies with both types at tournaments.

I don't mind comp hate.

I regularly get low sports scores for 'perceived' list issues.

Just lamers being themselves, really.

I give everybody a 10, cheesy army or jackass, don't matter. Always have.

On the dread thing, yeah ven is purchased...but since you can only have 0-1 Venerable Dreadnought...

Which ruleset do you satisfy by taking TWO Venerable Dreads? Neither. Thus, you should adhere to the 0-1 limit.

Stelek Why the lascannons with H flamers for dropping dreads? We've played a plethora of games with dropping dreads and the assault cannon/heavy flamer combo seems ideal in this context. Can you expand upon your reasoning there?

jfrazell wrote:Stelek Why the lascannons with H flamers for dropping dreads? We've played a plethora of games with dropping dreads and the assault cannon/heavy flamer combo seems ideal in this context. Can you expand upon your reasoning there?

Sure. I use my Dreads for killing enemy vehicles.

Usually by dropping right next to them.

Often I can get rear/side shots (AV10 or 11).

So a heavy flamer helps a little bit (usually it really helps take down open topped vehicles and light vehicle squadrons).

But the real reason is so I can hit a vehicle at 8" with the TL lascannon, and put a heavy flamer template into a infantry squad parked in the way.

Often as not, that means between the Dread and the Deathwing Drop pod, I can kill 2 infantry squads and a tank.

Not a bad deal for 170 points...which is about the cost of a normal 'heavy' tank.

TL las isn't a guaranteed hit, but it's about as good as you get.

Heavy flamer, of course, is a guaranteed hit.

I am not afraid to suicide my dreads if that means I've done alot of damage.

As an example of when range is key, and I give up the heavy flamer action:

On the flip side, there are alot of enemy vehicles you can drop far away from and snipe. So dropping 24" away from a monolith means your dread is going to die, right? But if you drop....44" away (because heavy flamers don't really scare necrons) you can zap the crap out of the monolith and it can't do a damn thing to you. Sure the necrons can, but honestly you should have killed all the destroyers with your marine drop pods, so odds are you can take out his liths and just drop more pods wherever you need them, and not have to fear the flux arc death because the monoliths will be dead soon enough.

Did I answer the question?

The multi-melta is better for tank busting than the TL las. This is what your Ven dread should have.

- G

I for one appreciate the lists you put up Stelek. Keep up the good work.

It's better if it hits, GBF.

The TL las has never let me down.

The multimelta? When doesn't it fail.

Sorry, I'll just have to disagree with you on that one.

No GBF, we will have to agree to disagree on that one.

Multi-Meltas are a BAD choice IMO.

Roll to hit once.24" range
Str8 +D6 (Or 2D6 if within 12", and it aint living metal/Cheeze)

As opposed to
Roll to hit once.(Or a second time if you miss lol)48" range
Str9 +D6.

Sorry GBF, I think TLLC is 'da Bomb.

My problem with multimeltas on dreads isn't so much the miss, it's the asskicking I'm going to take from being so close for the 'uber' +2D6. It's a all-or-nothing gamble.

Twin-linked lascannon is betting on the house to win.

Yes, against AV14 it has it's problems but because of sooo many reasons people just don't play all-around AV14 vehicles that can turn around and blow your dread up (meaning, land raiders--and not LRCs neither) and front armor AV14 vehicles (leman russes) and AV13 vehicles (preds, exorcists, and vindicators) are easy to get side shots on against AV11 which the lascannon handles easily enough.

Know the real reason I always take lascannons?

Land Speeders. If I hit, no matter what else happens, it won't be shooting me next turn.

Anything armor 10 I can line up on (so, anything without it's ass at a board edge) I can cripple for at least a turn, giving my dread a chance to do even more damage.

In a drop pod army, that's critical IMO.

It's better if it hits, GBF.

The TL las has never let me down.

The multimelta? When doesn't it fail.

Sorry, I'll just have to disagree with you on that one.

If you are afraid to roll then I have to say you don't have the balls to play Space Wolves in the first place. They should be furry too.

- G

So, the odds and tactics should be tossed out in favor of...my balls or lack thereof.

Gee. I think I'm impressed.

Stelek wrote:My problem with multimeltas on dreads isn't so much the miss, it's the asskicking I'm going to take from being so close for the 'uber' +2D6. It's a all-or-nothing gamble.

Twin-linked lascannon is betting on the house to win.

Yes, against AV14 it has it's problems but because of sooo many reasons people just don't play all-around AV14 vehicles that can turn around and blow your dread up (meaning, land raiders--and not LRCs neither) and front armor AV14 vehicles (leman russes) and AV13 vehicles (preds, exorcists, and vindicators) are easy to get side shots on against AV11 which the lascannon handles easily enough.

Know the real reason I always take lascannons?

Land Speeders. If I hit, no matter what else happens, it won't be shooting me next turn.

Anything armor 10 I can line up on (so, anything without it's ass at a board edge) I can cripple for at least a turn, giving my dread a chance to do even more damage.

In a drop pod army, that's critical IMO.

Stelek, I just have to disagree with you on the most versatile choice for the dreads. I have been playing drop Wolves for a long, long time, and have tried every possible combination coming out of those pods. My current list has taken me to top of the 20-person LGS league that I have set-up, and I just have to say.... Assault cannon.

Now I'm sure that some will simply start ranting "Ass-can noob", but quite frankly, I find that my assault cannon is so, so much more effective, especilly against the aforementioned side and rear armour shots. I also find that the versatility of the Assault cannon against everything else makes it way more effective.

In the current set-up, though, I can see why you have taken LC.

But then, I would optimise my squads for any comers; 2PP, 2PF and MG or PG has always served me well in the past, and 2PF always gives you a better chance against MC and other gribblies. These points could be saved by the "free" beginners Ass cannon.

As for the whole 2 Venerable dreadnoughts, I always take two - one SM and one SW. They are completely different units, with completely different stats, and I do believe that their is nothing to stop you taking the two choices. Personally, I don't follow the WGBL heavy weapon rule as being legal, but I would still give you a game.

Oh, and for the love of Russ, put Extra armour on that Venerable - it makes it as hard to kill as a tooled up falcon and it should always be able to assault you still!

NR :nuke:

I concur with Nightrunner. Stelek - there is considerable room for improvement of your list. I score it C-.

- G

Green Blow Fly wrote:The multi-melta is better for tank busting than the TL las. This is what your Ven dread should have.

- G

I agree with GBF. In my experience the TL Las will hit more often, but the MM will kill more often. The lascannon never quite got it done for my list. The MM does miss on occasion, but I don't regret using it.

BTW put extra armor and a heavy flamer on the venerable.

Stelek wrote:So, the odds and tactics should be tossed out in favor of...my balls or lack thereof.

Gee. I think I'm impressed.

Playing Space Wolves is all about the attitude, not the tactics.

Well, I'm glad to see some useful advice in amongst the gallery o'comments.

I guess I should comment some.

GBF: All of your armies rate a X, bud. You know I don't think terribly much of them--now don't get mad and go running away again. Fluffy and flavorful, yes. Tactically competitive? Not in my neck of the woods. The minute you put down a LR and don't have 2 more to go with it, you're rated X.

CD: I don't know why the EA doesn't show on my Ven dread...it should, it does have it. I don't give it other upgrades as it rarely shoots. Drop, smoke, crush something that doesn't want you in CC with it. Clears Tau armies out pretty damn quick. My MM experience is totally different from you guys, I've learned to not count on it to do anything. My TL Las don't fail me very often.

NR: I get tagged for 'cheese' alot, and I know where the SW codex is going...so why build a army that'll be illegal soon? I'm referring to double PF. I don't think anyone playing ass-cannons are noobs, though I do tend to rate most opponents as noobs. I don't fear ass-cannons. Let me count the number of times I've lost to ass-cannon lists (termies, with single or double; land speeders, crusader spam; baals; etc etc)...oh right, zero. It's just not intimidating. Others find it so, I do not. It's so unreliable. You might find it good for you, but given my experience being on the receiving end (it's a joke) why would I want it on my own army?

I don't want to debate the WGBL or double ven bit. I could really care less if the WGBL can have heavy weapons or not, and while you don't seem to mind the contradiction in having two venerable dreads I'll leave you with this thought.

When the old SM Codex was put out, SW players could not field more than 1 ven dread. When the current one was released, what changed? You'll note the reason the AB files are written the way they are (where you get 1 ven dread, and that's it) is because nothing changed. SW are not SM, so until you are and can buy the trait giving you more than 1 ven dread...you can only have 1.

I'd still give you a game, given the weakness of drop pod armies to castling from virtually every army. Ven dreads

The WGBL rules went from crystal clear to muddy as a river bottom, but when asked GW (the design team, not the trolls) said WGBL could indeed have heavy weapons.

So pretty much, as far as rules disputes, while he and I don't always see eye-to-eye and we caused much strife over at AB HQ...it's very difficult to argue rules with Ghaz unless you are as 'up' on them as he is. Alot of what is in the AB files is as a result of those arguments.

Surprisingly, most people don't complain about the Ab files being 'wrong'. Which is, IMO, a good thing.

My army list should have EA on the ven, but that's about all I'm going to fix. I have alot of work to do on my old Legion of the Damned SM drop pod army to bring it up to snuff as a SW drop pod army.

Hopefully the SW codex will be a good one, and my time won't be wasted doing what I'm doing.

Stelek wrote:
NR: I get tagged for 'cheese' alot, and I know where the SW codex is going...so why build a army that'll be illegal soon? I'm referring to double PF. I don't think anyone playing ass-cannons are noobs, though I do tend to rate most opponents as noobs. I don't fear ass-cannons. Let me count the number of times I've lost to ass-cannon lists (termies, with single or double; land speeders, crusader spam; baals; etc etc)...oh right, zero. It's just not intimidating. Others find it so, I do not. It's so unreliable. You might find it good for you, but given my experience being on the receiving end (it's a joke) why would I want it on my own army?

I don't want to debate the WGBL or double ven bit. I could really care less if the WGBL can have heavy weapons or not, and while you don't seem to mind the contradiction in having two venerable dreads I'll leave you with this thought.

When the old SM Codex was put out, SW players could not field more than 1 ven dread. When the current one was released, what changed? You'll note the reason the AB files are written the way they are (where you get 1 ven dread, and that's it) is because nothing changed. SW are not SM, so until you are and can buy the trait giving you more than 1 ven dread...you can only have 1.

With the army you have (that I do like, btw!) I think that the LC work and, just in case I wasn't too clear before, I am 100% behind the lascannon over multi-melta choice. I hate the damned thing, and a re-roll to hit is ALWAYS useful over 2D6 penetration. My two cents on that!

As for the WGBL....I have always found that a bit weird. I, personally, don't play it, but I do love the idea and think that it is totally fluffy. However, I think that in my neck of the woods, I would just get crucified by my opponents as being a cheese merchant and would certainly have to spend a lot of time arguing this point; it is, sadly, easier to leave them off.

Going back to the assault cannons.....the difference between my list and yours at this level is that I wouldn't have that many dreads! However, sheer weight of firepower and TLLC reliablity does make your choices solid. Again, its my choice of versatility, where against Hordes I would find the lascannon wanting.
I am in the same camp as you with the assault cannons - they can be pretty awesome at times, but a lot of the time they are just average; my comments of crying "CHEESE!!!!!!!" come from disgruntled opponents who say that the five (shocking, I know) assault cannons that I take are over-powered and thats what makes my list good - not considering the general benefits of appearing in rapid fire range with my units where I want them to and denying you opportunities to shoot as much as possible, no, that couldn't be it............

I have never had anyone question the two Venerable dreadnoughts, and my reasoning for that is as follows; whilst you couldn't take two venerable dreadnoughts in the past, you currently have the option of 1 Space Marine dreadnought and 1 SW Venerable dreadnought. Now, as basic units, they are totally different; BS+WS 4 and 5 respectively, less attacks etc.

The Venerable upgrade is just that; an upgrade for the SM venerable dreadnought. You can only upgrade 1 dread per detachment with this option - thats is all I am doing. Where exactly is the loophole I am exploiting?

BTW, just in case we get a bit lost.....Still liking the list. The only questions that I forgot to ask; no scouts? Not in your mind in terms of the fluff? Also, what do you do with the WGBL, as they cant pod in with the grunts - do you just hide them and snipe?

NR

Why bring scouts? To put cheap troops in a drop pod?

You do know you must drop pod everything or nothing, right? Including scouts...

I guess the loophole is while the stats might be different, the in-game effect isn't. Drop, smoke, charge. Never die. It's bad enough on one dread, the one you were supposed to have. On two? Well, you aren't a SM chapter so you can't upgrade a 2nd dread to venerable. Remember, 40k is NOT permissive. It doesn't say you can do this, players just say you can. Well, that isn't this game system.

I guess my best argument is, the same guy that brings me nice AB formulated sheets for all of his other armies (at a tournament) brings me hand-written scribble for his SW army.

Why? He *wants* the extra cheddar dread. Trouble is, AB won't let him because it's been ruled illegal by GW.

He also, strangely, has wolf scouts not in a drop pod.

Seen it many times from many 'new' SW players who think 2 ven dreads, counter-attack, true grit, and the SW goodness is just too awesome to pass up.

If only it worked that way.

Last answer, then I gotta go: The WGBL can pod in with the troops, there's room. So they pod in and detach, and start sniping vehicles then. Sort of, a ML isn't exactly king of anti-tank.

Stelek, as I said before - been playing SW a long, long time mate.

You really, really don't have to go all or nothing with Pods, thats why I suggested scouts!

The GW SW FAQ says that, whist we continue to use the SW Codex for the list of units that can use pods, we now use the SM codex rules for Drop pod assault. This explicitly states that you can mix units in and out of pods. Therefore, the 'All or nothing' pod assaults of the past are gone.

http://us.games-workshop.com/games/40k/spacemarines/gaming/FAQ/assets/space_wolves_faq_v4-1.pdf

This is DEFINITELY tourney legal here in the UK, no buts about it.

OBEL, anyone?

As for the IC in Troop transports, you can't actually do it as GW, in all their wisdom, have written the rules so that, whilst units in reserve can come in together if they roll appropriately, there is no rule for you to be able to put the IC in reserve. So how can he join a unit? The answer is that it is illegal for him to do so - you cannot elect a unit to be put in reserve unless their rules say so.

Therefore, he simply cannot join a unit and drop in. Total crap, but total truth.

I guess the loophole is while the stats might be different, the in-game effect isn't. Drop, smoke, charge. Never die. It's bad enough on one dread, the one you were supposed to have. On two? Well, you aren't a SM chapter so you can't upgrade a 2nd dread to venerable. Remember, 40k is NOT permissive. It doesn't say you can do this, players just say you can. Well, that isn't this game system.

I guess my best argument is, the same guy that brings me nice AB formulated sheets for all of his other armies (at a tournament) brings me hand-written scribble for his SW army.

Why? He *wants* the extra cheddar dread. Trouble is, AB won't let him because it's been ruled illegal by GW.

Seriously, Stelek, WTF? This whole bit confuses and amuses me at the same time! You are happy to play the WGBL with heavy weapons (itself a bone of contention), but cry cheese at two Venerable dreadnoughts that, if anything, are more legal in terms of the actual rules! Lol

I am well aware that the 40k ruleset is not permissive, but I am NOT taking two of the same dread, their options, costs and abilities are totally different. The SW FAQ does not state that you can't use two VD's, so I will continue to until they can be bothered to make one that does, just as you will the WGBL.

If the best argument you can bring me is that your opponent is trying to mislead you with it, sorry, that just ain't gonna cut it!

Nite!

NR

Stelek the reason why I rated your army C- is as follows:

You are posting the list as highly recommended for tournament play. It is a good list but I doubt it has been play tested. There are a lot of tweaks or just a plain old overhaul you could do for the list that would make it much better. Nightrunner has made suggestions that I concur with as a long time Space Wolf player. For example I think that it makes a lot of sense to take two power fists per Grey Hunter squad... I think you should also mix up the special weapons for these units - you have suggested fielding six units - I would run two with flamers, two with plasma gun and 2x plasma pistol, and two with meltaguns along with 2x power fist per unit. You also did not kit the Venerable dreadnaught with extra armor but that was probably just an oversight. I am guessing that you would deep strike the two HQ so that they can independently target enemy armor, if so that is a lot of points allocated for a single role... a lot of armies could blow them off the table the turn or shortly thereafter when they arrive. They both would be better served with WGBG in tactical dreadnaught armor all arriving via drop pod - I would also switch out their CML for AC since you have suggested kitting them with heavy weapons. In fact you could have two units in your army with 3x AC each... much more versatile. Also remember that SW cannot deep strike except for their landspeeders. All these little things add up quickly and tell me that SW is not one of your primary armies.

- G