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Here are some comments that were made within the article, archived here so that they dont need to be made again (or can be queried further in this thread):

Regarding CSM:

Reader response: Xen says: Huh? They get bolter, bp+ccw, and have 1 better Ld over marines. these guys are for combat, not standing back, so why would you ever want a heavy weapon. An awesome unit for its cost.

Stelek: You have an innovative new way to deliver CSM into combat no one else knows about? Why you'd take CSM over Khorne in your stated situation is beyond me.

Regarding Khorne Berserkers:

Reader response: Xen says: WS5 and FC? thats minimum 40 attacks from a 10 man unit, hittin on 3, wounding on 3 vs MEQ, whats not to like? Edit: Also, if you are considering 5th ed, these guys will be able to run, meaning they get into combat earlier. OR - 12" Rhino move, disembark, you cant assault anyway, so run forward. Thats a 24+D6" charge radius in turn 2.

Stelek: They are T4 with a 3+ save, that cannot kill what they cannot assault. All you've provided with a Rhino move is the ability to rapid fire your Khorne unit to death, and assault the remnants--then no furious charge, no extra attack...not so good then. It's a unit that requires lash to work, and when lash doesn't work--that's alot of your army that's suddenly not useful.

Regarding Chaos Spawn:

Reader response: Xen says: What? Spawn are beasts and thus do get fleet.

Stelek: Yes, they are also slow and purposeful. Maybe you don't understand the stupidity of 'slow...FAST...slow...' but most others seem to. Great models, horrible unit.

Regarding the Chaos Land Raider:

Reader response: Xen says: Ill agree that, used as a firebase alone, the LR is a pointless pointsink. However, when used as a transport, the AV14 and damonic possession (way superior to potms) is priceless when getting the 4 termies and lord, or kharn+9berserkers into combat. When thats done, you have 2 TL lascannons on your opponents front line... So: Only good with a unit in it.

Stelek: Until you get a meltagun shot at you, and you blow up or get immobilized...and your precious terminators either die in the transport because it doesn't have a back hatch so it's easy to get around it, or because those units you described are easily beaten by most assault units they'll be assaulted and eliminated. Having BS3 TL Lascannons 'on the front line' means you'll soon be dead, as every melta weapon bears down on your 250 point gift to the enemy...

Regarding Plague marines:

Reader response: Xen says: Agree with you on this, these guys are the objective takers of 5th. Any large unit of these in cover will take a hell of a lot of punishment before they are put down. One thing for small squads, is that they are a more attaractve target. If You had a choice between shooting a unit of 10 said T5 FNP badasses, and 10 normal CSM, the wise opponent is going to take out the csm first, to reduce your scoring unit number. Making the plagues smaller, makes them a more attractive target, forcing the opponent to make some difficult decisions.

Stelek: Being in cover actually doesn't help PM much. It's only effective against plasma weapons, where you get your cover save AND your fnp save. They're just like regular marines against the other weapons that instant kill them, with one cover save. Plague Marines don't need to be small. Larger units demoralize the enemy, as a PM unit of 15 men takes forever to kill without close combat...and it takes crazy close combat units to kill them.

Cough. Can someone change the name sometime...?

Thank you malfred!

Stelek: Are you planning on updating this further for V5? There are a number of things that I think you have overlooked in your analysis:

Chaos Marines: I agree that these guys aren't as good, performance-wise compared to their cult brethern - however, they do have one advantage: they are Chaos' cheapest troops units and quantity is a quality all its own. Icon of Chaos Glory makes them almost as good as fearless (without taking those stupid fearless penalties in HTH). They also have the most flexible range of wargear in the troops category. Not great, but not terrible as you suggest.

Chaos Rhinos: I agree that they are death traps, but I think they are a great buy at 35 points. You are completely correct that they are essentially moving walls - moving walls with twin linked bolters no less! Usually two things happen: 1. They die. This happens often. 2. They're ignored. This happens even more often! However, here are some stupid Rhino tricks that make them worth while:
(a) Use it to block LOS/Assaults. This one is a no-brainer.
(b) Put a combi-melta on it (it only costs 10 points!). If it kills a tank, you get 300-400% return on your points invested. If it doesn't, your rhino has essentially double the firepower, and if it dies, you're only out 45 points.
(c) Use it to keep stuff from rallying! Everyone always ignores poor mr move and shoot twin-linked bolters, so he's free to drive around herding broken units off the board.
(d) It can ram stuff (dubious value)
(e) It can tank shock (even more dubious value)
You don't ever want stuff to ride in them, except for two occaisions. 1. It is the first turn, and your opponent has no LOS on them, and can not get LOS on them in the first movement phase. 2. It is the late game, use to move a unit onto an objective. Extra armour is wasted points, as AV11 doesn't stop anything, and more often than not, people don't waste shots on empty Rhinos...

Chaos Terminators: I think you are discounting the utility of small units armed with combi-weapons. Combined with a no-scatter icon drop, a unit packing combi-plasmas will gut most anything it looks at. 4 dudes with combi-weapons is only 140 points! That's more than enough power to kill (or horribly maim) stuff like Carnifexes, Daemon Princes, Hive Tyrants, Wraithlords, rear armor etc. Its almost always worth it because these guys will have made up their points as soon as they arrive. The 2+sv is almost impervious to small arms and even 4 terminators is annoying if left alone. If they don't die, you are laughing! 3x combi-plasma and 1x heavy flamer in a 4 man squad is cheap and flexible (though wholly dependent on deepstrike).

Chosen: While I agree that you can buy cheap lascannons with these guys, I think you are missing the full potential of these boys:
(a) Infiltrate + Icon Chaos Glory = squad in a forward position with rerollable leadership + no-scatter deepstrike reinforcements
(b) Chosen can take up to 4 special weapons. 5 if you buy the champion a combi-weapon. That's slowed firepower without spending a heavyy support slot. Considering you can redeploy them easily in V5 with the much maligned Chaos Rhino - I think they are worth a second look.

Dreadnoughts: This one hinges on whether they can use smoke after running in V5. If they can, 2xCCW or CCW/ML dreadnoughts might be worth while running up a flank. Probably not, but worth trying in my book anyways as glances can't kill them anymore.

Sorry for being such a noob, but could someone explain "Buy 2 units of EC for 100 points apiece". Im guessing that EC stands for Emperors Children? Cant find that in the codex though...

What Ive gathered from looking around, you buy a box of noise marines and build them as emperors children. Correct? But what are their characteristics? Cant seem to find that...

Apprecite any and all help!

xedric wrote:Sorry for being such a noob, but could someone explain "Buy 2 units of EC for 100 points apiece". Im guessing that EC stands for Emperors Children? Cant find that in the codex though...

What Ive gathered from looking around, you buy a box of noise marines and build them as emperors children. Correct? But what are their characteristics? Cant seem to find that...

Apprecite any and all help!

When he says EC he just means Noise Marines. And you should probably give them their good weapons to make them a 125 point 5 man squad.

You are being unfair regarding Lords and Sorcerers. Both are very flexible, able to be geared for shooting or assaults. Yes, the DP is a monster in CC, but he is also a massive fire-magnet. Even his toughness, armour, and invul save won't protect him from a storm of anti-tank weapons, which many people seem to turn on him.
You say of all the special characters, Kharn and Abbadon are the only ones worth taking. Granted, Lucius hits like a girly marine, and Huron is nothing more than a pimped Lord, but Ahriman has a deadly arsenal of powers; he can choose the best power for the situation. Got tank problems? Use bolt of change. Going on the charge? Use doombolt or wind of chaos. Want to kill off that pesky marine commander? Use gift of chaos.
Typhus' weapon is both a Plaguebringer Daemon Weapon AND a force weapon. This really shouldn't be overlooked, because if he's fighting anything immune to instant death or with a high toughness, he can use the poison attack.
Fabius Bile... I have mixed opinions about him. He's pretty crummy against MEQ armies, but he's good against low-armour armies like IG or Orks. He's even good against Tau. And if you decide to use Enhanced Warriors, you can have a fairly buff unit. Assuming you're lucky, that is.
Possessed are worth taking, but I recommend you have a squad of 10, and give them an Icon. If you think about it, all of their abilities are in some way useful. F-Charge will give you a 5 strength squad that is strength 6 on-the-charge, with up to 30 attacks per turn!

Cheese Elemental:

I disagree with Stelek on a lot of things, but I think that he is dead on correct about the Daemon Prince being the best choice - as he happens to be the most points efficient. The others are much slower, and when brought up to the same speed as the winged prince, tend to cost a lot more - for a more easily killed model. Eternal Warrior alows the DP to be a fire magnet - which IMHO is the best use for such a points cheap unit. If he dies, then he dies. If he gets a few wounds put on him, but makes it into HTH, you are laughing.

As for special characters - Ahriman is a good character, stat wise, but his points cost is ridiculous. I couldn't in good concience recommend him to any one. Huron is a sorceror who traded his force weapon for a heavy flamer and a powerfist. Lucius and Fabius Bile are just outright not worth it, points wise.

Possessed and enhanced warriors. Needing to rely on a good die roll at the start of the game is recipie for disaster IMHO. The idea is to reduce the amount of unknowns when one is planning their armylist, not increase it!

However, remember that Eternal Warrior simply makes a DP immune to instant death. Not much can do that to a Toughness 5 model apart from Demolisher cannons and the like. And what about things that will wound him on a 2+ or 3+, like krak missiles or lascannons? Possessed and enhanced warriors, you are taking a chance, and there's only a 2 in 6 chance of getting a generally undesirable result on them. With possessed, you just have to adapt. I've seen them do incredible things in competitive play.

it may be that they got shot at with lots of anti-tank weapons, but then those weapons arent then shooting at the rest of your army. it take on average 11 missile launcher or lascannon shots, shot with BS 4, to kill a DP if hes out in the open. something like 15 if he isnt. all it take for me to kill your lord or sorcerer is charge the squad theyre in with a powerfist and thats it theyre gone. if you dont move them forward into combat are they just going to be sat at the back doing nothing?

enhanced warriors would probably be worth it by themselves, but having to pay over 150pts on a rubish caracter isnt. having the choice, a demon prince is better.

the trouble with possessed is that they are very expensive, you cant deploy them effectively and the just get shot like regular marines. that amount of points for a unit that may not do what i want it to just isnt worth it. if we could choose what they had they would be much better. its such a shame beause the models are so good.

Ok so when the 5th edition rulebook is out for all of YOU, I will then look at this thread and talk or not about the things you are wanting me to "update".

I really just don't want to argue about what is in the rules or not. K?

interesting article. i will be playing against a plague marine force in a few weeks. good to know what their strengths and weaknesses will be so i can exploit them.

So. Are you planning on updating your tactics list now that V5 is out. There are a number of observations in there which are now totally out of date now that the new edition is out.

In particular:

Rhinos. Rhinos are pretty good in V5 for 35 points, either as a mobile wall, or to actually ferry some stuff that is out of position. There are no penalties for passengers disembarking from a wreck, and for 10 points more, you can double its firepower by adding a combi-weapon.

Havocs. While HW havocs other than the HB variety seem overpriced, kitting them with 4 special weapons makes for an awesomely killy rhino bourne squad - and this option should not be overlooked.

Tactically, in your "shoot" and "assault" archetypes, you may -not- want to buy throw-away troops in that they cost you KP and aren't reslient enough to hold objectives.

Lesser Demons -can- be a late game objective grabber. Not a great choice, but I think it merits some thought.

It should also be noted that with infiltrate, chosen can enter the field from reserves off a side edge. They can also have 4 special weapons. Not especially great, but it merits some thought.

Finally, 1k Sons lost a lot of utility with the ubiquitious 4+ cover saves. You may want to kick these guys down a notch in the "choice" category.

Considering that people are building Stelek style armies based on the current article, without any thoughts to how they function within the current rules framework, you might want to post an update as a public service.

True. I don't think the advice is necessarily bad, but I will revise this a bit more to bring it in line with 5th edition.

Read the update: Here's a few comments on units (appearing in the order that you have them in the article):

Chaos Sorcerer. Dies to power fists or regular marines beating on him--T4 with 3+ save impresses nobody, mister!

I noticed sorcerors get cheap 15 point terminator armor. While this isn't going to make them as tough as a daemon prince, it is the closest thing to giving him chaos armor, and lets him deepstrike as well - and insulates him from the "get shot syndrome" that the daemon prince has.

Chaos Rhinos... since they look cheap but with EA actually cost about the same as the last edition

I feel that EA is a terrible buy on the rhino in the new edition, since you'll still be tooled by a penetrating result, and glanced results are gimped so much you'll still probably be able to move. Any thoughts on the 10 point combi-weapon upgrade? Gives 4 BS4 bolter shots (combined with standard twin linked bolter) at close range with a one shot flamer/melta shot. Plasma on a rhino is a waste IMO. Empty rhinos tend to be ingored, so I find that the combi-weapon usually fires to good effect.

Obliterators. I favor 2 Obliterators per squad. They are fearless, and killing 1 still leaves me with a scoring unit so you have to kill both to get any VPs or deny me a scoring unit.

Might want to change the wording here. 1 oblit is clearly a no-no, but 3 oblits is no longer bad, as it increases wounds until they give up a KP.

I will take a look at this again in a month or so.

Thanks for the article, I know you've not updated it for 5th Ed, but there are a few things I disagree with.

Regular CSM's. I think having the icon of chaos glory makes them almost better than fearless! A ten man squad works best with 2 special weapons, I'm finding flamers personally work well but thats neither here nor there. Being able to shoot a bit before fighting and then on the charge pump out 30 hit's isn't too shabby. Even if they loose combat it won't be by massive amounts so they can hold on to an objective or clear one reasonably well.

Bezerkers, hmm I agree they're not the best cult troop, but they are more usefull even without lash imho. To me it basically comes down to the fact even if they get charged they'll kill quite a few due to the number of attacks and WS5, add onto that the champ with a fist! Yes he may hit last, but he'll not suffer massively from not getting +1 for an additional weapon, and again WS5 makes a difference. I think you just need a decent rhino wall to protect them - and with lash they rock of course.

Vindicator I'd also say is great with demonic possession, if only for the dangers of lash and pie.

yeah,
I've found rhinos to be way more survivable in 5th edition
min of 3 rhinos make a viable mini rhino rush!
You don't have to get out for 2/3 of penetrating hits. so you can stay safe inside. get out next turn and assault.
move 12" next turn (turn on the spot) 2" disembark move 6"move and 6" assault = 26" assault range into turn 2

ALso in my last game i used two (35pt) rhinos with (15pts) havoc launchers for 50pts total
Great 48" str5 blasts... can move up to 6" and fire with the BS4 reduced scatter if i don't hit.
plus TL bolter.
not bad for a 50pt movable wall...

Panic...

I'd rather take the extra armour over the havoc launcher. This way the rhino can still move, so if you're expecting to win the combat on turn two, you can move it to sit in the fire lanes you may be hit from the next turn

I will update it (well, rewrite it really) for 5th. More things have changed that need to be included.

Decent article again Stelek!

Thanks!

Wow great minds agree! My chaos list (A real one, painted and all!) is on the desk top! Has the obliterators and the winged Demon Princes as you said!

But you know when making a real army some times you go with other reasons than combat math!

In my case I just really like the Khorne bererker TORSOS on the models! With the chains! So for modelling reasons I ended up taking three squads of eight KB (The old sacred number was eight right?) in Rhinos. Its not always a matter of optimum. Some times modelling or theme determines the army.

My obliterators are converted loyalist terminators with zombie heads and heaps of chaotic bits glued on (COOL!) painted red! Red Rhinos, Havoc launchers! I can see that it is not an optimised army! I can see that it is sub-competitive! I even took stupid mark of Khorne on the DP, though I agree with you that slaneesh and a psychic power is better!

But the reason was to keep the army in theme.

And I think going sub-optimum makes gaming a challenge because now it becomes a tactical problem to get the KB into CC without getting wasted and to use the various elements to keep the army alive.

And YES I think Abaddon is my wet dream leader unit, but he costs so that would be a new list and a whole army of different models to make it thematically coherent!

Often we can't make our paper armies real because we don't have the budget for the necessary models THIS YEAR!

OTG