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With the hellgun there are a couple of issues, most proposals has it becoming almost as powerful as a bolter, either in strength or in AP. While I find making it "assault" as interesting it seems redundant when the implication is stormtrooper will have the option of taking shotguns.

I think as the fluff stands, beyond ogryn, rough riders, and guards with warrior weapons they don't have too much in the way assaulting units. Veterans I think present an interesting opportunity. With rumors of the platoon being able to incorporate different units into it, what if veterans were to become a squad upgrade within a platoon rather than just an elite choice, that way they could hold objectives, and there would be more than just one in the army. It would seem like an opportunity to distinguish them as a unit, maybe given them some special rules like "Recon Team: get scout/infiltrate" or maybe "skirmishers: (insert rule to make them better in hand to hand/assault role)." I just think of those Vietnam war movies, where the veteran team always gets sent up ahead to scout and end up having to call artillery down on their position.

Spellbound wrote:something I noticed, people saying guardsmen need to stand shoulder to shoulder to get COD bonus and whatnot....

1) Actually, standing in a single-file line is the best way to protect from blast weapons, as a slight scatter in any of several directions severely limits the number of models hit.

As long as they're spread coherency, that works. Shoulder-to-shoulder, and half the time, the blast scores the full 4 or 6 guys.

aka_mythos wrote:So how do you all think the lasgun will be made "more interesting"?

Are hellguns effective as they are now? Do they need to be assault, or stronger, or more penetrating?

I don't think the Lasgun can or should be made "more interesting". The Lasgun sets the floor for standard weapon effectiveness in the 40k universe. So a Lasgun *must* be 24" Rapid Fire and S3 AP- without any special rules, because anything better than that means it actually competes with the upgrade weapons like Hotshot Lasguns, Bolters and such. The only thing that could possibly change is to drop it to S2, but who are we kidding?

Hellguns are completely useless right now. Upgrade the Hellgun to Bolter stats, or at least S4, and all will be well.

DAaddict wrote:Now your elite veterans and stormtroopers can be the assault troops in 5th ed and the regulars can be the supporting fire.

Except, 5th tactical doctrine says that regulars hold positions once the Vets / Storms take it.

aka_mythos wrote:I think as the fluff stands, beyond ogryn, rough riders, and guards with warrior weapons they don't have too much in the way assaulting units. Veterans I think present an interesting opportunity. With rumors of the platoon being able to incorporate different units into it, what if veterans were to become a squad upgrade within a platoon rather than just an elite choice, that way they could hold objectives, and there would be more than just one in the army. It would seem like an opportunity to distinguish them as a unit, maybe given them some special rules like "Recon Team: get scout/infiltrate" or maybe "skirmishers: (insert rule to make them better in hand to hand/assault role)." I just think of those Vietnam war movies, where the veteran team always gets sent up ahead to scout and end up having to call artillery down on their position.

Sounds interesting. A lazy rules writer could easily make this change by copy-pasting the veterans squad entry where the remnants squad used to be.

Another thought I had on veterans... what would you think if the IG veterans became more like the Last Chancers? Kinda like Ultramrine Tyranid Hunters are to Sternguard, Last Chancers would be to redone IG veterans, but cheaper.

Nah, simple Veterans will be best. BS4, +1Ld = done.

I meant more along the lines of the unfettered equipment upgrades.

Spent some time digging through this thread but I'm glad I did. Being new to IG and 5th ed. in general I've been spending a lot of time pouring over rulebooks and forums, that being said I do have a few humble change ideas:

- Tanks, having a vehicle that is solely designed to be a mobile armored weapons platform and be unable to fire its armaments after moving really bugs me. I'd be happy with a russ that could move and it's turret or it's hull/sponsons. As a possible go between with the current rules maybe heavy stubbers (S4 AP6 Hvy3 IIRC) could be instituted as a hull/sponson for the russ thus falling under the defensive weapon mandate. Not as good as a HB on a 1:1 scale but moving thats 3(4 with pintle mount) stubbers to one HB. Quantity over quality?

-The chimera does seem overpriced when compared to other dedicated transports but I feel that this issue has received enough discussion, hopefully GW finds an apt solution.

-Heavy artillery, I like the idea a lot. Not too sure on the definites of it's implementation but I think they shoul have some sort of tie-in rule with regular IG troops/platoons. Perhaps you could purchase vox for the artillery and as a result the gun receives a reduction to scatter when firing at a target within x" distance and LOS of a vox equipped troop choice? Thats a bit vague but I think it might encourage more mobility on the part of infantry as they could advance under supporting fire dunno.

- Heavy weapons, not a necessary change but more along the lines of flavor: why can't heavy weapon teams be equipped with multi-lasers? To me it always seemed like the larger rapid support-fire brother to the lasgun kinda in the way a heavy bolter relates to a regular bolter. Also there is a lack of heavy stubbers once again, so why not add them in but due to the comparatively weak profile why not let them count as a heavy weapon or a special weapon? So in theory you could have 2 heavy stubbers in a 10 man squad. Not sure how many people would take such a loadout in most games ( especially vs. MEQ's) but at least its a neat option especially for kreigers.

-Stormtroopers/Hellguns, I really like the look of these models so I find it rather saddening to hear most people find them to be subpar especially when compared to veterans. Giving them the free shotgun swap is a neat idea IMHO but I also think the hellgun should be changed but I haven't the faintest idea as to what. I'd rather not see them become bolters by a different name, maybe improve the rate of fire? Personally I like the idea of hellgun's and most of my officers/techpriests are using converted hellpistols instead of laspistols/boltpistols.

-Ogryns, I like the idea of the role they're supposed to fill but it seems like they just don't get the job done.

-Veterans, maybe just a personal gripe but why not allow them to take sniper rifles as special weapons? I'd like an option to have a BS4 snipers without having to resort to abhumans.

Just some ideas, but please take them with a grain of salt as I haven't really played 40k since 2nd Ed.

@ 0079 : You have pretty much hit on most of the main issues of the current Guard codex, except for the whole Stormtrooper thing. I personally think they are just slightly overpriced considering the shear number of AP4 or better weapons and that they are still essentially fancy Guardsmen (maybe giving them a heavy weapon or more assault weapons/pistol and CCW).

Well I think whatever proportion that standard IG are brought down in cost, needs to be applied to stormtroopers, even if the amount standard IG are made cheaper is absorbed by some gear or ability.

The hellgun is:
Hellgun S3 AP5 Rapidfire
With the limitations of the rule set there aren't too many ways to modify this profile.
+Str can be +/-1
+AP can be +/-1
+Type can be changed (Rapid Fire or Assault#).
Beyond that it can only be a matter of changing the stormtrooper himself.

With new stormtroopers models being done it give them a chance to change what they hellgun is like, maybe an interpretation less on the side of lasgun more on the side of the next larger weapon. Anyway I always thought the profile was off by only giving it an AP boost over a lasgun. That it'd more like a small personal version of a multi-laser.
Hellgun S4 AP6 Rapidfire

Personally, my interpretation of stormtroopers at least from the fluff that I've seen is that they would operate as an elite and highly mobile strike unit, think contemporary counter-terrorists almost. Although from the perspective of a full sized guard regiment that may not hold up as well but when you look at say a 1500pt army which can field at maximum 30 stormtroopers it seems to fit. Just my perspective of course.

That being said, why not make the hellgun a souped-up carbine version of the lasgun ( or in another way of looking at it a miniaturized multi-laser ref. mythos). Now I have no experience with tau whatsoever and I am not familiar with their standard equipment and organization but reading through the 5th Ed. rulebook there are stats for the Pulse Carbine (R18" S5 AP5 Assault1, Pinning). Those stats might be going too far for the hellgun but I think it could be a good reference. It would emphasize the use of Stormtroopers as mid-CQB oriented specialists but not necessarily CC focused. The only thing is that it would have to have something to differentiate the choice between hellgun or shotgun (assuming shotguns become swapable equipment).

One last thing, sort of OT but in the IG 4th Ed. codex and the 5th Ed. Rulebook shotguns are listed as S3 but I read recently in another thread that they are S4 in the DA codex. Which value takes precedence? Personally I really like the idea of S4 AP- Assault2 shotguns and I don't think it would skew things too badly.

@0079:

Most of your comments make sense. Although it would be funny if Lasguns could be used as laser target designators (no scatter)...

Shotguns should be R12" S4 AP- Assault 2
Hellguns should be R24" S4 AP6 Rapid Fire

Tau Carbines compare against Tau Rifles, which are also S5.

John, help me out, is there an effective difference between shotguns and hellguns within 12"?

jfrazell wrote:John, help me out, is there an effective difference between shotguns and hellguns within 12"?

Shotgun, as an assault weapon, you can move and shoot twice, and then assault (if possible). There is no AP value, so everyone's getting their armor saves.
Hellgun, as a rapid fire weapon, you can shoot twice without moving, shoot once with moving, and not assault. You can shoot up 5+ armor saves pretty good.

0079 wrote:One last thing, sort of OT but in the IG 4th Ed. codex and the 5th Ed. Rulebook shotguns are listed as S3 but I read recently in another thread that they are S4 in the DA codex. Which value takes precedence? Personally I really like the idea of S4 AP- Assault2 shotguns and I don't think it would skew things too badly.

Your codex takes precedence over another army's. The Emo Shottys may have strength 4 to better end their own lives with, but a guardsman makes due with a strength 3.

A Hell Gun Carbine (HGC) or some sort of SMG version of the Hellgun and Lasgun would be interesting. DD's idea of knocking back the AP to 6 is just plain... well, sorry, but stupid. Really, AP 6? AP 5 is limited enough to pay for, but AP 6? You're better off saving the points (even if you pop up to Str 4) and letting 6+ keep their armor saves. Yeah, a 1/6 chance of passing but over a battle that's not much, I think only the Tyranids and Orks have 6+ armor, and the Tyranids can upgrade to 5+.

A carbine could be Assault 2 version of the same weapon, and SMG assault 2 or 3 but also allows allows it to be counted as a pistol in close combat (think of a Mac10, TMP, or other machine pistols). Lasbased weapons are almost always described as having quite low recoil anyhow, so knocking back power or strength would only be for seperating it from pistols. So, a SMG Hellgun could be S3AP6 and the SMG Lasgun S3AP- (S2 is just too low), or bump up the points cost to make it less delicious looking to arm a whole squad with them, or just make it only available to characters with access to the IG Armory. Granted, it has no standing in the fluff of the game, and I would place good money it will EVER see light, it is still an idea.

Just some thoughts:

Skinnattittar wrote:A Hell Gun Carbine (HGC) or some sort of SMG version of the Hellgun and Lasgun would be interesting. DD's idea of knocking back the AP to 6 is just plain... well, sorry, but stupid. Really, AP 6? AP 5 is limited enough to pay for, but AP 6? You're better off saving the points (even if you pop up to Str 4) and letting 6+ keep their armor saves.

Well I'd prefer it to not be a S4 AP5 RapidFire weapon simply because I call bolters as bolters haha. Also if you make hellguns Assault2 then whats the point of shotguns? I'm not saying that shotguns are a must but its always nice to have options. What about S4 AP6 or even S5(!) AP- and make them Assault1 with something like an 18" range, more versatile than the close range shotgun but lacking the volume of fire at >12". I'm thinking that the poor AP value fits better with the idea of a miniaturized multi-laser. Also I just want to say that I got a bit lost when reading through your SMG ideas, what would be your proposed range for the SMG variant of each weapon?

bryantsbears wrote:Your codex takes precedence over another army's. The Emo Shottys may have strength 4 to better end their own lives with, but a guardsman makes due with a strength 3.

Fair enough, if IG doesn't get the superior shotguns then thats just how it is. But I think the big problem with this is that it hinders the possible reiteration of the hellgun (assuming the theoretical free swap option). If it is a free swap on default equipment then the hellgun and the shotgun should be comparatively equal in power with varying utility. This, combined with the idea that hellguns should be a unique weapon in their own right and not a carbon copy of another weapon but with a different name leaves one with a very small area to work in. So as I said before I think it would be nice to see S4 shotguns paired with S4ish hellguns. Is S4 default firearms really going too far for the IG 'elite'?

jfrazell wrote:John, help me out, is there an effective difference between shotguns and hellguns within 12"?

As I proposed? Shoguns being Assault would allow an Assault into HtH. Hellguns being RF wouldn't be able to do that.

Skinnattittar wrote:DD's idea of knocking back the AP to 6 is just plain... well, sorry, but stupid.

A carbine could be Assault 2 version of the same weapon,

The point is that it isn't quite as good as a Bolter. AP6 doesn't cost anything and is just window dressing. The main thing is that it's S4, which is far more useful than S3.

If it were Assault 2, it would be a another Shuricat. or Shotgun. Given that we already have Shotguns, your proposal is not interesting.

If you're not going S4, then the only other possible "fix" for the Hellgun is S3 AP3, which specializes it for anti-infantry use.

0079 wrote:What about S4 AP6 or even S5(!) AP- and make them Assault1 with something like an 18" range,
So as I said before I think it would be nice to see S4 shotguns paired with S4ish hellguns. Is S4 default firearms really going too far for the IG 'elite'?

The Hellgun could be S5 AP- and it would be OK. Heck, you could make it modal:
S4 AP6
S6 AP- Gets Hot!

The problem with AP6 is that AP5 is already pretty negligible, AP6 would be down right pointless, only a few models in the entirety of Warhammer 40k have 6 armor save, so a weapon that caters to that is without reason! So what if it is a carbon copy? Arm them with bolters then, more reasonable than the idea of Hellguns, sort of like scouts. Heck, why not be IG scouts? Instead of being inferior physically to their SM counterparts, they are superior to their IG comrades. Or just keep them S3AP5.

The SMG idea would be a pistol upgrade, so range 12" seems reasonable.

Auto-Laspistol S 3 AP - Pistol 2/3 Range 12"
Auto-Hellpistol S 3 AP 5 Pistol 2/3 Range 12"
Las-Carbine S3 AP - Assault 2 Range 18"
Hell-Carbine S3 AP 5 Assault 2 Range 18"
Shotgun S4 AP6 Assault 3 Range 12"

The shotgun has a strength boost (agreed it was needed) and an AP6 (though I don't think it is needed personally, but GW puts some odd things in the codexes anyhow, like the Carapace armor doctrine or Jungle Fighters, and many others), and an increased ROF. The carbines are shorter ranged than the full sizes, but assault, the SMGs are even shorter ranges, and more of a pistol upgrade than anything else, and would therefore require additional points per (+5/7?) and be restricted to only certain troops (vets, officers, characters....).

EDIT ADDED : Gets Hot! would be rather dangerous for a mass fire weapon. Every sixth trooper would take an armor save, and half of them would die. And that's not if they are doing anything important to the battle! If you need them to work, you'll get three ones a turn and no armor saves, knowing Lady Luck hating the IG.

A bit of a un-reality check. Strength 4 = 35mm bolter. That is a 1.4 inch entry wound, and torso sized exit wound. If thats what strength 4 does, does a hellgun, a big laser even begin to make that kind of damage?

Also giving any non-heavy weapon 3 shots is bit ridiculous. The number of "shots" a weapon gets is supposed to abstract representation. And relative to each other the only real difference between an assault rifle type weapon and an SMG would be range and rapid-fire/assault.

The only way I could see lasguns or hellguns getting "gets hot" is as an alternate mode of fire. Fire lasgun at S4 and it gets hot, makes sense.

Also it was my absolutely ridiculous idea for Hellguns to be knock backed to AP6... I explained my rationale up there. If AP6 is good enough for a multilaser it should be good enough for a hellgun.

JohnHwangDD wrote:The Hellgun could be S5 AP- and it would be OK. Heck, you could make it modal:
S4 AP6
S6 AP- Gets Hot!

I was actually tossing the idea of a psuedo plasma weapon around in my head as well, ultimately I decided against it as a single powerful blast did not seem to mesh that well with my idea of stormtrooper function ( think bolt action rifle vs automatic) but thats just my opinion. OTOH, the way you've set it up as a sort of alternate fire seems like a very cool idea, assuming that is what you were going for. Its almost like the idea of an under-slung grenade launcher except the 'gets hot' contingency means that it will be used sparingly at best. I am a fan of versatility.

Skinnattittar wrote:The problem with AP6 is that AP5 is already pretty negligible, AP6 would be down right pointless, only a few models in the entirety of Warhammer 40k have 6 armor save, so a weapon that caters to that is without reason! So what if it is a carbon copy? Arm them with bolters then, more reasonable than the idea of Hellguns, sort of like scouts. Heck, why not be IG scouts? Instead of being inferior physically to their SM counterparts, they are superior to their IG comrades. Or just keep them S3AP5.

Well that is kind of a big issue of this discussion, at least for me. Sure it would be very easy to make stormtroopers into SM scouts but really I don't see that as a good option. If I wanted to use scouts then I would play SM, or perhaps field an inquisition force (not sure on the specifics there). My point is that stormtroopers should have something to make them unique and a worthwhile representation of an elite choice for the IG and not just a bunch of kids who dream of becoming SM scouts when they grow up.

On the subject of AP5 vs AP6 on the hellgun stat line, although this would have a relatively noticeable affect in regards to IG vs IG/Horde is it not otherwise mute? I could be mistaken, but other than basic orks, nids, and guardsmen does not every other race have a 4+ save or better on their troops? So against any MEQ, which as far as I can gather are quite common in tourneys it would not matter if hellguns were AP5,6,or even -. Thats just a thought that came to mind but please understand that I do not have the play experience to back it up.

As to you SMG's, first off thank you for the clarification, I like the idea but it seems like they're are too close in purpose to shotguns and I agree with mythos that going above three shots a round for non heavy weapons is probably a bad idea. As for the pistols in particular, not sure exactly but I believe most if not all basic pistols in 40k are represented as automatic weapons at least as they are represented in fluff. Regardless I'm not too concerned with the capabilities of my guardsmen's CC equipment as model stat-wise they are outmatched in that department by all but the tau.

Skinnattittar wrote:EDIT ADDED : Gets Hot! would be rather dangerous for a mass fire weapon. Every sixth trooper would take an armor save, and half of them would die. And that's not if they are doing anything important to the battle! If you need them to work, you'll get three ones a turn and no armor saves, knowing Lady Luck hating the IG.

Yes it is statistically dangerous, but as an alternate fire option it is quite viable, after all certain situations may warrant all or nothing/ death or glory approach (not to insinuate that it is a viable method for facing down a tank). Personally I think that fits quite well with overall IG theme.

aka_mythos wrote:A bit of a un-reality check. Strength 4 = 35mm bolter. That is a 1.4 inch entry wound, and torso sized exit wound. If thats what strength 4 does, does a hellgun, a big laser even begin to make that kind of damage?

Obviously there are 40k lasers capable of dealing high str hits, lascannons and multi-lasers being two imperial examples. Both are heavy weapons but man portable and require a power supply notably larger than a lasgun power pack. Now just examining the kasrkin models (unsure of the older stormtroopers) they obviously have fair sized back packs with cabling running solely to the hellgun. Those things taken into account, is it really that much of a stretch to say that a lasgun of marginally higher quality construction and with a dedicated power source is able to achieve an output that would be measured as S4 opposed to S3? I know that you could say these variables are already accounted for in the addition of an AP value but then things just get confusing when you consider the multi-laser which has a higher str value but inferior AP. What is the difference? Beam focus? Lense type? Wattage? I really don't know which is why these kind of comparisons tends to fall apart.

One other thing I'd like to add as to the wound size being relative to the Str of the weapon, what about shuriken catapults? Also S4 but fire radically smaller munitions if I'm not mistaken.

Really I'd like to know if you personally feel that S4 is too high for hellguns, especially if one considers reducing the AP to bring it more in line with a multi-laser as I believe you suggested earlier.

This is the way we use Hellguns in our games:

R30 S3 AP5 Rapid Fire
R30 S6 AP4 Rapid Fire/Gets Hot!

So they have two profiles, and each model can choose to fire them however they want. Don't worry so much about the 30" range - all basic weapons in our game have that, so that's not an advantage they have, it's just normal.

BYE

Skinnattittar wrote:The problem with AP6 is that AP5 is already pretty negligible, AP6 would be down right pointless, only a few models in the entirety of Warhammer 40k have 6 armor save, so a weapon that caters to that is without reason!

It is different for the sake of being different. Welcome to 40k.

Skinnattittar wrote:Auto-Laspistol S 3 AP - Pistol 2/3 Range 12"
Auto-Hellpistol S 3 AP 5 Pistol 2/3 Range 12"
Las-Carbine S3 AP - Assault 2 Range 18"
Hell-Carbine S3 AP 5 Assault 2 Range 18"
Shotgun S4 AP6 Assault 3 Range 12"

You're making this stuff up, and you called my suggestion for a not-quite-Bolter Hellgun stupid? :S

Skinnattittar wrote:Gets Hot! would be rather dangerous for a mass fire weapon.

That is why it is modal. It can shoot S4 AP6 all day long. Or try for S6 and roll the dice.

aka_mythos wrote:A bit of a un-reality check. Strength 4 = 35mm bolter. That is a 1.4 inch entry wound, and torso sized exit wound. If thats what strength 4 does, does a hellgun, a big laser even begin to make that kind of damage?

You mean like a S9 AP2 Lascannon?

aka_mythos wrote:The only way I could see lasguns or hellguns getting "gets hot" is as an alternate mode of fire.

Yes, it was modal.

0079 wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:The Hellgun could be S5 AP- and it would be OK. Heck, you could make it modal:
S4 AP6
S6 AP- Gets Hot!

I was actually tossing the idea of a psuedo plasma weapon around in my head as well, ultimately I decided against it as a single powerful blast did not seem to mesh that well with my idea of stormtrooper function ( think bolt action rifle vs automatic) but thats just my opinion. OTOH, the way you've set it up as a sort of alternate fire seems like a very cool idea, assuming that is what you were going for.

Yup, you got it.

0079 wrote:On the subject of AP5 vs AP6 on the hellgun stat line, although this would have a relatively noticeable affect in regards to IG vs IG/Horde is it not otherwise mute? I could be mistaken, but other than basic orks, nids, and guardsmen does not every other race have a 4+ save or better on their troops? So against any MEQ, which as far as I can gather are quite common in tourneys it would not matter if hellguns were AP5,6,or even -.

And that is why I suggest S4 Hellgun - because it actually does *something* better against Sv4+ (or better armor). Gaining AP5 is meaningless when you shoot against Sv3+ all day long. And being able to glance light vehicles is pretty handy.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

jfrazell wrote:John, help me out, is there an effective difference between shotguns and hellguns within 12"?

As I proposed? Shoguns being Assault would allow an Assault into HtH. Hellguns being RF wouldn't be able to do that.
Thanks, I forgot the ability to assault after shooting (I don't normally correlate the need to assault with guard)

The main difference between making things up and AP6 is useless. I put it on the shotgun just for humor. S4 shotgun doesn't seem unrealistic in my opinion. And if the shotgun is negated by other weapons, than so what? Don't take it. No one said you have to take something you don't have to, and the shotgun is a rarely used option anyhow. The Guard simply don't move enough for them to be taken on a regular basis.

There are a few other units with armor 5+ and below, Eldar Guardians and their Dark Eldar counterparts come to mind. Chaos Guard does too, to stay fluffy.

So does a heavy stubber have the same size round as a bolter now? Or do the two weapons simply affect damage in different ways.... It's all make-believe, throughing realistic equations in is moot to begin with, as Las based weapons do not exist (Las does not = Laser as far as the fluff in concerned, and if it did, then Lasguns would be probably the most powerful weapon considering the amount of power they are suppose to put out).

The weapons don't have to be 3 shot, and I don't know any reason why only heavy weapons should get that number. Historically, depending how far back you want to go, all weapons can pretty much be whatever they want. Things were crazy back in the WD/RT days before 2nd Edition. Compared to 3rd and 4th, yes, that's about right, so if that's a problem for you, rewrite the stats for everyone as your suggestion should those weapons ever see the light of day (we all know they won't....).

Hellgun stats = str3 ap3 rapid fire 24 inch range
Shotgun stats = str 4 ap - assault 2 18 inch range

There you go. Two guns, with very differnent jobs and both have a real place. One is better vs marines, the other is better vs anything else. Think of it kind of like a vespid approach.

I think everyone would greatly appreciate the Grenediers doctrine if that was done, and/or you would see just about every officer and character with access to the armory taking hellpistols and hellguns (oh wait, the armory is a tiny little box in the IG codex now with very few options, hell-weapons not being one of them. Oh damn).

Considering the cost of the stormie, it don't think it is overpowered. Heck just compare them to a SOB, and don't give me that (each unit fills a specific function in its own codex junk) they can both be taken in the same army.

If you wanted to beef up the hellgun to something that is more respectable, I'd kick it up to AP 4, not 3. 3 seems just too powerful to be priced affordably.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:A bit of a un-reality check. Strength 4 = 35mm bolter. That is a 1.4 inch entry wound, and torso sized exit wound. If thats what strength 4 does, does a hellgun, a big laser even begin to make that kind of damage?

You mean like a S9 AP2 Lascannon?

I'm not stupid I know the lascannon, but the discussion was on hellguns. My point wasn't to say yea or nay to hellguns being that powerful. It was only to point out the relative power of a strength 4 weapon to say "if this is what you imagine a hellgun doing, then go for the S4." When you look at the size of a hellgun even with some of the backpack as communication gear it should be bordering on the abilities of a special weapon.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:The only way I could see lasguns or hellguns getting "gets hot" is as an alternate mode of fire.

Yes, it was modal.

I asked before intent on that had been established, but it was made clear relatively soon after I asked.

I think with the larger big burst fire you could get away with:
burst mode R24 S6 Ap5 Assault 1/Get hot!