Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

These things will definitely happen. I doubt it will be because more women will start playing FPSs or any other "serious" (lol) genre. I reckon it will be male gamers who drive the mainstreaming of authentic, believable female characters. Halo Reach is a good example even now.

I think it'll happen for both reasons, actually.

Just like I think GW will (or at least I fervently hope) release female Guard models eventually because they're actually quite commonly requested amongst Guard players.

Yep. The future looks good. But we can never forget that it took the NintendoDS to put us on the right track.

Slarg232 wrote:

Redbeard wrote: (friendly jest, I'm very opposed to violence against women, my mom is a DV counselor)

You know, I just don't understand that veiwpoint anymore.

Women are men's equals, they can take everything we can and more, supposidly. But god help them if anyone hits a girl. Then it's "OMG, he hit a gurl!"

I mean, I don't hit anyone, unless they hit me first, but still.....

And yes, I am speaking from experiance. This girl in High School decided she was everything a man could be and more, so she decided to hit me for one of my sarcastic remarks, so I slugged her back in the jaw. Guess who got in trouble.

Lets just say the man who hits any of the women in my life breathed their last breath the moment they did it.
Life's unfair, suck it up and be a man.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Melissia wrote:You mean just like every single male model has to be the exact same height and build?



What's with the load of rather inane questions all of the sudden?

Melissia has a point. A prudent game company should have the option of a different skin (is that what you guys call it?) and voice. I don't go with all the other stuff because that would be expensive. Having said that, it should be a should, to garner more gamers, not a required as in required by law situation.

Yes, I think you're referring to the right thing.

To explain:
The model is the 3-dimensional graphical shape.
The skin is the texture that covers a model.

Melissia wrote:It's entirely believable to have a female character in a "modern" FPS, especially one set in the near future, because those things are happening NOW. Women are gaining broader and broader roles in all modern military forces, and we are constantly being put in the line of fire simply because the women of the arms forces are doing the duty requested of them. And in the years to come it will continue to broaden, as the militaries of the modern world cannot reject a skilled soldier just because of gender.

Also?


**** the world's culture. Preferably with jeep. Which has been covered in gasoline and is lit on fire. And is being driven by a rabid kangaroo. Wielding a pair of assault rifles. Which fire the lightning of a god's wrath.

Wow, so much anger. . impressive!

You are a woman and I DO hear you roar!

rubiksnoob wrote:

Melissia wrote:**** the world's culture. Preferably with jeep. Which has been covered in gasoline and is lit on fire. And is being driven by a rabid kangaroo. Wielding a pair of assault rifles. Which fire the lightning of a god's wrath.

Wow, so much anger. . impressive!

Actually I kinda want to play that game now...

Chongara wrote:God, and here I thought putting a "No Girls Allowed" sign outside your playhouse went out of style around age 6.

I was considering a long winded and detailed post but given just how ridiculous I think the resistance to the idea is getting Chongra summed it up both in content and style in a single sentence.

Frazzled wrote:

Slarg232 wrote:

Redbeard wrote: (friendly jest, I'm very opposed to violence against women, my mom is a DV counselor)

You know, I just don't understand that veiwpoint anymore.

Women are men's equals, they can take everything we can and more, supposidly. But god help them if anyone hits a girl. Then it's "OMG, he hit a gurl!"

I mean, I don't hit anyone, unless they hit me first, but still.....

And yes, I am speaking from experiance. This girl in High School decided she was everything a man could be and more, so she decided to hit me for one of my sarcastic remarks, so I slugged her back in the jaw. Guess who got in trouble.

Lets just say the man who hits any of the women in my life breathed their last breath the moment they did it.
Life's unfair, suck it up and be a man.

See, but that's disrespectful. Women can handle anything we can, so by not hitting her back (which I would do to any guy, any day of the week), I would be saying she is inferior. If they want to be my "equal", they could handle getting punched back if they punch me first, which is the same as I would treat any man.

And by saying "Life is unfair, suck it up and be a man", your saying that men should hold themselves to higher standards, which isn't equal at all.

Now, I'm not saying I go around and hit random women, I'm actually quite placid, but if someone, man or woman, hits me, you're darn right I am going to hit back.

Modqusition on. Lets all take a chill pill and remind ourselves of Rule #1 before it gets enforced with a hammer. Argue the issue not the people.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

See, but that's disrespectful. Women can handle anything we can, so by not hitting her back (which I would do to any guy, any day of the week), I would be saying she is inferior. If they want to be my "equal", they could handle getting punched back if they punch me first, which is the same as I would treat any man.
***Thats nonsense. Come to Texas and see how that works out for you.


And by saying "Life is unfair, suck it up and be a man", your saying that men should hold themselves to higher standards, which isn't equal at all.
***No I am saying have a standard. DIdn't you have parents that raised you properly?

Now, I'm not saying I go around and hit random women, I'm actually quite placid, but if someone, man or woman, hits me, you're darn right I am going to hit back.
***And I am saying that lacks honor. Real men don't do that gak. Here's your chance not to do it again.

Slarg232 wrote:And by saying "Life is unfair, suck it up and be a man", your saying that men should hold themselves to higher standards, which isn't equal at all.

Yeah, life's a bitch ain't it?

Tyyr wrote:

Slarg232 wrote:And by saying "Life is unfair, suck it up and be a man", your saying that men should hold themselves to higher standards, which isn't equal at all.

Yeah, life's a bitch ain't it?

Wait I thought life was a beach?

Everything I knew was wrong...

And I thought life was a bastard, the bastard child of Chance after it fethed a few dozen other concepts, but that really doesn't have much to do with the topic.


Thankfully, in recent times artwork at least has shifted away from the chainmail bikini type of heroine.




As examples, both fantasy and otherwise. Just kinda waiting on and urging mainstream gaming to move away from the style, and add more female characters in as playable characters.

Hah! I've had that top left pic saved for a while now, years actually. Love the bottom left one but, FEMALE SPESH MARINE!

Melissia wrote:And I thought life was a bastard, the bastard child of Chance after it fethed a few dozen other concepts, but that really doesn't have much to do with the topic.


Thankfully, in recent times artwork at least has shifted away from the chainmail bikini type of heroine.




As examples, both fantasy and otherwise. Just kinda waiting on and urging mainstream gaming to move away from the style, and add more female characters in as playable characters.

I can't see the images, but wouldn't an ideal FPS (as that seems to be mostly what is discussed) is something along the lines of Isabelle

http://www.imdb.com/media/rm2875360000/ch0163844
http://www.imdb.com/media/rm2825028352/ch0163844
http://media.zoom-cinema.fr/photos/8350/affiche-du-film-predators-isabelle.jpg

Why can't you see the images?

Actually I think a better example would be, for a modern FPS:

http://i8.photobucket.com/download-albums/a28/melissiablackheart/1210743180526.jpg
http://i8.photobucket.com/download-albums/a28/melissiablackheart/1262673272062.jpg
http://i8.photobucket.com/download-albums/a28/melissiablackheart/1206776773530.jpg
http://i8.photobucket.com/download-albums/a28/melissiablackheart/1210982439716.jpg
http://i8.photobucket.com/download-albums/a28/melissiablackheart/1206777619352.jpg
http://i8.photobucket.com/download-albums/a28/melissiablackheart/jessb.jpg

(the last one being in a swat type game, the others being in military games).

At work most images are blocked, including the ones I post (hence the shift to youtube commentary).

Well, the images I just now linked to are of actual female soldiers, not hollywood, art, or gaming.

Blocked for me as well, anyone behind a work related firewall won't be able to see Photobucket images, its one fo the first danged sites they block.

Tinypic however so far, has remained under the radar.

I'll go put the first one under tinypic then.

Yeah works fine for me now. Cheers.

Frazzled wrote:Modqusition on. Lets all take a chill pill and remind ourselves of Rule #1 before it gets enforced with a hammer. Argue the issue not the people.

***Thats nonsense. Come to Texas and see how that works out for you.

I don't have to come to Texas. Frazzled, Your what, 40? You and me have grown up in different time periods, things are changing. It happens with every new generation. I know that hitting a girl is something you just don't do with your generation, but in mine, it is perfectly acceptable, because they WANT us to. They don't want us to hit them, certainly not, but they do want us to treat them equally. And the way to treat them equally is to treat them the same. If that means they want to hit us, we are going to hit back.

Now, I am not saying a love pat is a hit, I am talking a full blown punch/slap to the face.

***No I am saying have a standard. DIdn't you have parents that raised you properly?

Can I just say that:

1) Yes, they did.

2) I find it funny that you Modquisition about Rule #1 and then put the bolded into the same post.

and
3) None of my points, in the last post directed at you, or this one, have been typed hostilly, if they have been taken so, I apologize.

***And I am saying that lacks honor. Real men don't do that gak. Here's your chance not to do it again.

Real Men do what they feel is right by them. If that means sleeping all day and partying all night, thats fine. If it means loving your wife, treating her good, spoiling her rotten, thats fine.

If it means treating women how they have fought, tooth and nail, so hard to get to is fine, then that is also fine.

I would like to stress two things:

1) None of this is being typed in anger,

and

2) I am not a woman beater. I've been in my share of fights, probably upwards of 20, and only one of them was with a woman. And she was the one who started it.

Quit *****ing between eachother and go back to talking about female characters in FPS games / attracting female gamers to the FPS genre!

I gave many examples of how it could be done, model-wise-- really, there's not THAT much overt difference between a highly trained female soldier and a highly trained male soldier. The women will gain in muscle mass and become leaner with the appropriate training regimen-- and I don't mean that female soldiers are musclebound, but hell, most female soldiers are stronger than most men who aren't themselves soldiers or dedicated athletes in a field which requires muscle.

Melissia wrote:Quit *****ing between eachother and go back to talking about female characters in FPS games / attracting female gamers to the FPS genre!

I gave many examples of how it could be done, model-wise-- really, there's not THAT much overt difference between a highly trained female soldier and a highly trained male soldier. The women will gain in muscle mass and become leaner with the appropriate training regimen-- and I don't mean that female soldiers are musclebound, but hell, most female soldiers are stronger than most men who aren't themselves soldiers or dedicated athletes in a field which requires muscle.

o.O Yes Ma'am


And I agree with you. I would also like to see a female lead who isn't just a reason to have gratuitious T&A.

Helena Pierce from Borderlands would be a cool Female lead type. She is still femanin, but you can tell right away that she has seen some action.

Slarg232 wrote:

Frazzled wrote:Modqusition on. Lets all take a chill pill and remind ourselves of Rule #1 before it gets enforced with a hammer. Argue the issue not the people.

***Thats nonsense. Come to Texas and see how that works out for you.

I don't have to come to Texas. Frazzled, Your what, 40?
***You insult Frazzled with 40? Pah! I have unwashed underwear older than that.


You and me have grown up in different time periods, things are changing. It happens with every new generation. I know that hitting a girl is something you just don't do with your generation, but in mine, it is perfectly acceptable, because they WANT us to. They don't want us to hit them, certainly not, but they do want us to treat them equally. And the way to treat them equally is to treat them the same. If that means they want to hit us, we are going to hit back.
***respectfully, thats still NOT Acceptable. Frankly hitting anyone is not acceptable and should involve jailtime, especially not women. On the flip side if you think truly equal then you should reconsider even more - if you hit a girl she just might shoot you. Thats equal and I've known women like that, Lord mercy I have. Hell hath no fury like a woman, well anytime.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Melissia wrote:I'll go put the first one under tinypic then.

Ok that worked.

Melissia wrote:Quit *****ing between eachother and go back to talking about female characters in FPS games / attracting female gamers to the FPS genre!

I gave many examples of how it could be done, model-wise-- really, there's not THAT much overt difference between a highly trained female soldier and a highly trained male soldier. The women will gain in muscle mass and become leaner with the appropriate training regimen-- and I don't mean that female soldiers are musclebound, but hell, most female soldiers are stronger than most men who aren't themselves soldiers or dedicated athletes in a field which requires muscle.

Why? Anything flying in this airspace that disagrees with you is immediately shot down with absurd amounts of flak consisting of "I'm not going to acknowledge his posts outside of the negative parts" and "male chauvinistic pig" rounds.

I believe that I in fact recognized the fact that women should be in games, but they will have different roles. I told you about a female lead who was in an espionage role "No One Lives Forever" is exactly that, but I guess you were too busy complaining about how women don't have too much of a role in a CoD type of game to see that.

Baron's posts excellently displays that flak seeing as though the spy in NOLF was a veritable badass from the 70s and apparantly I think women die easily in games or something while melissia believes that they should waste valuable shotgun ammo.

As a downed pilot, meh, a side mission at best. Having a shot down pilot rampage through enemy territory is incredibly stupid no matter if its a male, female, or pineapple. CoD prides itself on mostly being realistic similar to a Tom Clancy novel, mostly real with a hollywood story added in, so don't hold your breath.

The whole '8 year old clubhouse' remark displays the other portion of that flak.

Simply trying to explain why women aren't in many military shooters seemed like a reasonable mission, seeing as though it reflects real world conditions. Unfortunately if people are flustered they arent exactly reasonable so gross personifications are made and people are seen as chauvinistic pigs.

Men and women are inherently different, women produce estrogen in more quantities than men and men produce more testosterone than women. Testosterone is used to build muscles, to further explain the difference look at Chris 'Boulder Punchin" Redfield compared to Sheva "I'mma Kick You in the Face" Alomar. If a FPS female model was to be built it would most likely use the proportions of Sheva, while the male model will hopefully not use Chris(dude has serious roid issues) as the basic form.

You can argue this point all you want, but science has my back on this one as does psychology. You know those muscle bound women? Yeah, not very attractive to most men so all sex appeal goes out the window if you want them in a game.

So realisticly and I mean IRL and not realistic shooter, all females are going to be thinner than their male counterparts. Realisticly not all women are 'OMG BEWBS', but the bewb factor of a game depends on the developers and the type of game they're making. Too much bewb is unrealistic and too little bewb makes it harder for a person to distinguish male or female if a face mask is being worn. The face is next, which should be the easiest part of the character model because men and women typically have different styled faces. Clothing needs to be the same for both, easy enough, but you need to count in the base model so the clothing will fold and ripple differently.

Easy thing to do is have a faceless person wearing a helmet with hard armor that doesn't contort to a person's shape and just change the voices. This will most likely be what happens in most future style shooters, similar to what Gears of War is doing for that one female character. As we see though, Clay Carmine is suffering from Chris Redfield syndrome.

Here be an example:

Is this a male or female?

Surprise! It's Luger from Killzone, after meeting up with the first lead protagonist she, yes she, becomes a choosable character for the campaign. Killzone had an excellent campaign with about 4 endings and the ability to choose which character you wanted to be in between levels(after the character was introduced of course). One had no bonus to him(the first protagonist) the second had a silenced machine gun and an awesome knife kill(second, female protagonist) the third had the ability to hold more Helghast ammo(third, double agent protagonist) the fourth had a rocket launcher/machine gun(fourth, Chris Redfield protagonist).

So if you want another well done female in an FPS you have killzone to look at.

Gears of War 3 has added female characters as well, only just noted that while reading one of my xbox mags this morning.

Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:Gears of War 3 has added female characters as well, only just noted that while reading one of my xbox mags this morning.

And by me 6 minutes ago.

Just to point out: Hit boxes are separate from the player character model. You can notice very easily in CoD2 onwards (maybe not 3) that the player character's hit boxes extend well outside of the actual model. Someone can be completely behind a wall, and if they're near a corner, you can shoot thin air and kill them because the hit boxes are pretty big.

That a female player model would be smaller than the male is irrelevant really, so long as hit boxes are the same. I doubt a developer would pull an Odd Job Jaws situation these days. They'd probably be roughly equivalent in size, which isn't all that difficult (EDIT: Halo Reach? There really isn't much of a difference. Female spartan models are just a little curvier with slimmer legs).

As for women and the military. Technically. They aren't allowed to participate in combat operations in most militaries. Israel has been experimenting with integration. However, how does that policy play out practically? Not so much.

Did I not say that before? I swear I did.