Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

If both players are competent, 1850 plays fast.

Too many army builds are killed off at 1500. Armies with hordes of cheap troops that can overwhelm smaller armies take over, because smaller armies can't take the firepower needed to level the field.

1850 has the best balance for the game....

Walls wrote:

DarthDiggler wrote:

Blackmoor wrote:Here are the top 16 armies:

5 Grey Knights
4 Space Wolves
2 Imperial Guard
2 Dark Eldar
1 Blood Angel
1Tyranid
1 Ork

9 out of 16 are Space Wolves and Grey Knights. I think you are going to get that at 2000pts. Lower the game to 1500pts and those armies can't have every bell and whistle and must make hard choices.

I can't exalt this post enough. Tournaments really, really, REALLY need to go to 1500. Better balance, more tactics, more variety, easier to paint, less time needed to play. 1500 is such a great (the best!) point level for the game.

Never understood the 1500 pt argument. There is variety and decisions to be made at almost all point levels . About the only thing you save is time at 1500 points.

Backfire wrote:Is it just me, or are Blood Angels and Guard not doing that great in tournaments anymore?

I don't think either were ever truly overpowered. A few people got their butts kicked by new builds and started whining reflexively and they just got that rep. IG with alpha strike was a completely new meta (no one could ever throw out as many pie plates on turn 1 in the history of the game prior due to squadron rules and manticore barrages) that took some time to get used to. BA has plenty of wailing in regards to deepstriking Land Raiders and DOA but neither turned out to be game breaking. SW and GK has some units that are definitely undercosted for their power/utility and it ends up showing in the rankings... I'd suspect SW will stay close to the top for the remainder of the edition (just like with their release in 3rd edition).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

sabote wrote:Never understood the 1500 pt argument. There is variety and decisions to be made at almost all point levels . About the only thing you save is time at 1500 points.

1500pts is an interesting army value because it generally allows every army to cover the usual bases (1 hq, 2 troops) while still allowing at least a single "gimmick" to be added to spice up the army. I rather like the size for tournies.

Reecius wrote:@Walls
I like 1500 too, but I don't think it is "better" per se, just different. Different armies are better at 1500, it isn't more balanced, just a shifted balance, IMO.

However, I agree that 1500 is better for tournament play since it is so much faster. Games will finish on time.

Point well made. It is indeed a different balance. I just like it because you cannot take ALL your autowin buttons and really have to think about what you are putting in the list to cover your bases... and sometimes not all bases will be covered.

Keeping with the thread though...

Still haven't heard about painting awards!

Blackmoor beat Neil

Dash beat Hulk

both very close matches

Moving on:
Me with paladins
Dash with his DE
Tony Kopack and his SW
And a GK player

The feed has been excellent, and the chat has been such a great place.

Wow, the player on the bottom of the feed keeps moving terrain and now the objectives are uneven. Anyone else catch him trying make the center obj closer to the bottom right terrain obj?

Round 7 match-ups so far.

The BA player from Round 6 was actually a GK player my bad there. Top 4 is currently GK v GK and DE v IG.

Waiting for the rest of the top 16 to cascade down.

Do all the tables have perfectly symmetrical terrain? The missions already take any flavor out of the game by being redundent, if all the tables are symmetrical that would be boring beyond belief.

I understand trying to make things equal for both players, but why don't you just have everyone take the same army then because the army they bring makes the game uneven before they begin.

BTW - Dash doesn't know what Njall does and he's getting a rundown after Tony has started his first turn. He would have tried to seize if he knew beforehand. What a huge boob move.

DarthDiggler wrote:Do all the tables have perfectly symmetrical terrain? The missions already take any flavor out of the game by being redundent, if all the tables are symmetrical that would be boring beyond belief.

I understand trying to make things equal for both players, but why don't you just have everyone take the same army then because the army they bring makes the game uneven before they begin.

BTW - Dash doesn't know what Njall does and he's getting a rundown after Tony has started his first turn. He would have tried to seize if he knew beforehand. What a huge boob move.

I think dash made a mistake reserving everything here. He might get messed up in this one. SW player forgot he had 2 scouts!

Tony should have popped smoke on the two end-piece rhinos.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
damn...and he forgot his scout reserve rolls....doh

olympia wrote:Tony should have popped smoke on the two end-piece rhinos.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
damn...and he forgot his scout reserve rolls....doh

He is nervous and is choking a little. The space wolves player is in great position he needs to calm down and play his game. He had djals power for the cover!

Tomb King wrote:

I think dash made a mistake reserving everything here. He might get messed up in this one. SW player forgot he had 2 scouts!

No. He now denies two shooting phases of Space Wolves and gets the first shooting in against Fangs.

He forgot scouts again on turn 3

Hmm, it seems to me they're not really doing whole lot of damage to each other yet...both are passing plenty of saves.

space wolves player just rolled 5 scatters for 4 shots unless i missed something.

Denying two shooting phases of the long fangs is good, but only having half your army on the board when they do get to shoot is rough, even if you get first shot. Dash's venom's that came on didn't do much, though the rolling was slightly unlucky. Without seeing the tables from eye level though I can't comment on how easy or hard it would have been to deny or limit shots at the venoms, the elevation of the buildings looks like it would make it hard and make reserving probably the right call.



I agree that the terrain on the tables appears too boring and the same.

I don't know what the perfect balance is but having different types of useful terrain in each quarter instead of 4 ruins, moving the terrain apart more, having larger but slightly off center LOS blocking terrain in the middle on some tables, etc can add a lot of flavor to 40k without unbalancing an individual game...and if you're guaranteed X layout and type of terrain on every table then it does influence army builds and army choices. I know that having guaranteed multiple elevated firing positions in either deployment zone makes my space wolves a lot happier.

DarthDiggler wrote:He forgot scouts again on turn 3

I'm not watching the feed, but I always have a massive issue with this. Bringing models on from Reserves is not an optional choice like firing or moving units, therefore this must be done, especially considering many times it is in the player's benefit to have units arrive from Reserves late in the game and if people are 'allowed' to just 'forget' to roll for their Reserves then they can simply pretend to forget to achieve this.

Therefore, I think Reserves should have to be moved on if at all humanly possible...even if a player has screwed up and started moving other units in the movement phase the game basically requires for fairness that you bend things around a bit to get those Reserves into play when they're supposed to arrive.

So I personally hate when people try to act like...well you forgot to make the roll and started moving your models and therefore its just too late! People aren't realizing that sometimes its a BENEFIT to not get your reserves on early in the game, so allowances need to be made when a screw-up like this happens.

Not sure if it would have been possible in this game ('cause like I said, I'm not watching the feed), but I just hate it when that happens.

I'd like to apolgise for what I said about DoP yesterday, frankly its none of my business how he plays or conducts himself. I think hes done a lot for the game in terms of his batreps and articles.
Sorry if any offense was caused Dash, good luck for tourney.

Go Allan/Draigowing! Love to see that list do well and that ustream game between Allan and Neil was just awesome.

I have to just say that the 11th co. guys are doing a spectacular job covering these games as well. What a great thing for the community.

Yak I agree, it is the worst. And it really is something both players should be forced to worry about/do automatically. Not only can players "forget" to their advantage, but often the other player will decide on the fly if the player who forgot should be allowed to do it based on the situation.

Sometimes I feel like 40k needs the back cover of the rulebook to just be the phase order, and tournaments need huge signs displaying it so people "forget" less often.

If venoms get the drop on long fangs--dead puppies.

Monster Rain wrote:

thehod wrote:Unsporting yes but it was for $1000. He did not cheat and punished Dash's mistake for calling it a turn early when he still had things to do.

Gotta agree here.

In a friendly game or in 99.9% of tournament games I'll be a nice guy and say "Sure bro, go ahead!" in a situation like Mr. OfPepper's.

Playing for 1000 bucks, after I traveled to NOVA? Hell no. You said your turn was over, jack.

And this is why I think having a cash prize for a 40K tournament is a poor idea. I don't care if I'm playing in my garage or for a million dollars...not only would I allow my opponent to go back and fire some units he forgot (provided no rolls have occurred since that have changed the game situation), but I would actively remind my opponent that he has forgotten to fire said units.

That's what sportsmanship is all about. Tournament 40K games are frequently played at an extremely fast pace in order to get done in time and this means occasionally players forget to do something so as to try to have a complete game for both players. Therefore everyone should always cut their opponent some slack and allow them to finish stuff they forgot (as long as other impactful things haven't already happened that can't be taken back).

Call me crazy, but when I beat someone I want to do so because I out-strategized and outmaneuvered them, not because they forgot to do something critical in the heat of the moment. Maybe that's why I'll never win 1st place at a big tournament, but you know what? I'm happy with that because I feel like I'm treating people like I'd like to be treated.

Yak hit the nail on the head. Should be a big ass trophy instead of $1000.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
By the way, I'm so happy that I have tokens. The current game and the other two I watched were full of quesitons/comments like "that one moved" "did they go to ground" "how far did that vehicle move" etc. Tokens people! GW makes a nice set.

From watching Dash get his vehicles mixed up....

If I, as your opponent, placed name markers next to your vehicles, to remind me (us) what was in it, would you be offended or feel something was unfair about this?

I'm thinking dry erase strips that I write the unit name on and use that to track the contents, rather than constantly ask....cause people may have faulty memories...

KGatch113 wrote:

From watching Dash get his vehicles mixed up....

If I, as your opponent, placed name markers next to your vehicles, to remind me (us) what was in it, would you be offended or feel something was unfair about this?

I'm thinking dry erase strips that I write the unit name on and use that to track the contents, rather than constantly ask....cause people may have faulty memories...

No one should have a problem with this; if they do it reflects poorly on them.

Yeah I think when you're playing for this kind of stakes, the game needs to change:

Judge on every table

CLEAR labelling of who is in every transport

Tokens for Shaken, Stunned, Immobilized, Move distances, what units moved/shot...etc.

If you're making a 6 inch move...use the blue template, put your measuring tape away...and lay it down if possible.

3+ hour rounds, or even "the game plays until it ends, and if you slow play you're DQed".

The first two should just be general courtesy and expected in any tournament...the others are maybe extreme. There is probably more I'm missing. It is just frustrating to see games lose their fun because people are too focused on winning, and too much of that seems to include semi-unsportsmanlike behavior

And jesus christ, put a model from the unit next to your damn transport so people can keep track of empty/full transports/troop vs. elite etc.

This is discusting to watch. Dash is cheating on multiple occasions. I really wish the SW player would step up. Just recently dash added a trueborn to a warrior squad that fled. He has changed squads in transports a couple of times. He didnt remove casaulties on wyches. He tried to have an extra venom in the middle of the board. For someone with this much experience it is blatant cheating.