Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Well, the most important accessory for an RPG (for me) is a starter campaign (if not a full one). I like running campaigns, but don't have the time/energy to make a story completely from scratch.

Either one included in the books or as downloadable would get me excited, and could also easily be an upgrade (if Wyrd were to do such a thing, though it seems they don't plan to).

 Breotan wrote:
Then again, they're kickstarting a RPG. Not exactly a lot of product in those aside from a few large books.

That seems disingenuous as 98% of the criticisms (which you like to dismiss as whining) so far have been suggestions for what can (and perhaps should) be added.

Just of the top of my hat (from other RPG-Kickstarter)

- Character Creation/Management Apps
- Adventures.. usually PDF by default with small (limited pledge) print-runs
- Retailer bundles
- Custom Cards (Fate Deck? Dice for most other RPGs) as a seperate add-on/pledge
- Separate (Digital) Art books
- Separate World-Guide/Cartography/Setting-Guide books without rules
- Novels and other fiction set in the RPG-setting
- Game Master Accessories (GM-screen, cheat-sheets, etc..).
- etc..

If anything, the pen-and-paper RPG industry has taken to Kickstarter with even more enthusiasm than the Miniature-side of the hobby. There're plenty of precedents to look at.

As someone who has played D&D for years all the things Zweischneid suggests as stretch goals seem brilliant to me. My group has never used miniatures for RPGs, we have never seen the need, but things like cheat sheets for skills, character creators and DM screens have always come in very handy. I feel a starter campaign is a must, maybe it is already included, but they should let us know what we are getting for our money.

If things continue as they are I will certainly be dropping my pledge to $60 if not dropping out completely.

 Zweischneid wrote:

 Breotan wrote:
Then again, they're kickstarting a RPG. Not exactly a lot of product in those aside from a few large books.

That seems disingenuous as 98% of the criticisms (which you like to dismiss as whining) so far have been suggestions for what can (and perhaps should) be added.

Disingenuous? Exactly what is in insincere about my comments? Whiners? I dismiss complaints about not having enough freebees, especially the general vibe that seems to be, "I gave $100 and I want $300 worth of stuff or else". Whatever.

 Zweischneid wrote:
- Character Creation/Management Apps
- Adventures.. usually PDF by default with small (limited pledge) print-runs
- Retailer bundles
- Custom Cards (Fate Deck? Dice for most other RPGs) as a seperate add-on/pledge
- Separate (Digital) Art books
- Separate World-Guide/Cartography/Setting-Guide books without rules
- Novels and other fiction set in the RPG-setting
- Game Master Accessories (GM-screen, cheat-sheets, etc..).
- etc..

If anything, the pen-and-paper RPG industry has taken to Kickstarter with even more enthusiasm than the Miniature-side of the hobby. There're plenty of precedents to look at.

I'll take your examples one at a time...

- Adventures.. usually PDF by default with small (limited pledge) print-runs

You may have noticed but other than a general outline of what the rules will be about, Wyrd hasn't put a whole lot of development into this yet. I also don't know what kind of staffing, budget (outside kickstarter), or resources are available to create this RPG. I would be very suprised if there's even a full team devoted to this yet. More people will be brought on as the game develops but I doubt this project will see more than a handfull of people until summer 2013 at the earliest.

- Retailer bundles

I've no idea what Wyrd does with retailers on their existing line. I assume the RPG will follow a similar distribution scheme.

- Custom Cards (Fate Deck? Dice for most other RPGs) as a seperate add-on/pledge

I thought they said they were doing this as part of the pledge? I also thought I read some less than enthusiastic posts about it.

- Separate (Digital) Art books

Have they done this for their miniatures line? Unless you want your digital art book to be a .pdf file, you're going to have to hire someone who knows code. Even at entry level, that person will likely cost more than the full time writer on the project. Wyrd may be unwilling to do this. Consider for a moment what their web sites look like and compare that to a company like GW or Wizards or even some of the apps on iTunes and you'll see that an electronic footprint is not high on their agenda.

- Separate World-Guide/Cartography/Setting-Guide books without rules

Outside of Malifaux, exactly how much of the world has been detailed? I suppose a "cloth map" like GW put into Dreadfleet might make a couple of people go "wow" but I don't think many people would change their pledge level for it. And how do you know setting guidebooks aren't coming? The kickstarter is for the core rulebooks. Once those begin generating revenue, Wyrd will likely begin developing and releasing support material.

- Novels and other fiction set in the RPG-setting

Let's go back to the digital art book suggestion and ask the question again, have they done this for the miniatures line? A novel for one is essentially a novel for the other in this case. The only difference would be characters only appearing in the RPG or in the miniature game being in a given book. Who would write the novel? What happens if it turns out to be complete garbage? That's happened for other game properties. Perhaps Wyrd has something planned already that is separate from the kickstarter and the RPG guys haven't been given the goahead to say anything. Perhaps Wyrd just isn't looking at novels or other forms of licensing right now.

- Game Master Accessories (GM-screen, cheat-sheets, etc..).

Also, a GM screen? A deck of cards? Are you serious? How is any of that going to bump people from $60 to $125? They've promised some sort of pad of sheets and I think I remember a snide comment a few posts back. Also, how do you know a GM screen isn't going to be part of the process? Once again, I'll reiterate that I've got a gut feeling this project is little more than brainstorming at this point. I don't even think they know what they'll be offering down the line. Which brings me back to my point. This project is what it is. You need to look at it and decide if it has value for your money or if it doesn't.

As to the whining comment... It is true that I've replied negatively to people complaining that there isn't enough stuff being offered. I stand by those comments. As for other (non-freebee) criticisms that people have, I don't remember getting on people who have had actual criticism about the project (RPG game) itself, how it is being developed, or the reasons why Wyrd is doing the kickstarter in the first place. Wyrd seems to have okayed the kickstarter because the company wants to devote company revenue into the miniatures line and not RPG development. Who knows? I hope this is just me being overly cynical and it may be. Except for the pad of character sheets or whatever it is, the stuff being added so far is coming from the existing miniatures line and that is why I see this as being too early to expect a lot of add-ons. Other than the "cheat fate" gimmic, I don't know if they even know what's going to be in this game. Still, Wyrd has a reputation for delivering quality product and that helps significantly.

 Breotan wrote:
I dismiss complaints about not having enough freebees, especially the general vibe that seems to be, "I gave $100 and I want $300 worth of stuff or else".

Again. Like all Kickstarter's, they are asking people for money up front, to take an investor's risk, yet they don't offer equity into the company in return as you would get for upfront investments everywhere else. It's not about "freebies". It's about getting adequately compensated by shouldering Wyrd's entrepreneurial risk through with your own private bank account. That risk on Kickstarter is significantly higher than "shopping" through an online store or a brick-and-mortar-store, where you're protected by a sales contract. Higher risks need to be compensated with better rewards, hence why Kickstarters should offer significantly better value than "shops"... always.

Given the clear disdain they show for people on Kickstarter looking to get adequately compensated for providing start-up funds, they probably should've just asked their local Bank or a Californian Venture Capitalist for the money instead.

I just really wished they'd commit to a rough minimum size for the GM & Players books

They must have an idea of what they could produce for the 'minimum funding' level they asked for

that would have been enough to keep me in, minis are fun and all (and I've backed KS for just the minis) but here I was interested in the game

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
I just really wished they'd commit to a rough minimum size for the GM & Players books

They must have an idea of what they could produce for the 'minimum funding' level they asked for

that would have been enough to keep me in, minis are fun and all (and I've backed KS for just the minis) but here I was interested in the game

I agree with you on this. I decided not to worry about it because of what Wyrd has already done with the Malifaux books. Still, it isn't like Wyrd is going to revolutionize the RPG industry here. I just hope it turns out better than some of the other recent "indy" RPG stuff I've seen.

I guess the weekend doesn't count as weekdays regarding updates?

Our customer service office is now closed. You may reach a customer service representative Monday through Friday, anytime between the hours of 9:00 am and 4:00 pm Pacific Standard Time.

As a note to those that aren't watching the kickstarter comments, or Wyrd's forums.

One of the more "famous" Malifaux podcasts, the Gamer's Lounge, has put out a new episode with an interview with Mack Martin about the RPG. Lots of questions are apparently answered, though I haven't given it a listen and probably won't until tomorrow.

http://gamerslounge.coda.net/2012/11/30/gamers-lounge-special-through-the-breach/

Hey Everyone, apparently sometime after posting yesterday afternoon, we broke 150,000 So that means everyone is getting one randomzied male or female mini.

Not a big update, since we all know the stretch goals at the moment.

I wish they'd show us some 3d renders of the minis at least, that might be a nice way to get people to jump into the dining room gamer or higher.

 Alfndrate wrote:
Hey Everyone, apparently sometime after posting yesterday afternoon, we broke 150,000 So that means everyone is getting one randomzied male or female mini.

Not a big update, since we all know the stretch goals at the moment.

I wish they'd show us some 3d renders of the minis at least, that might be a nice way to get people to jump into the dining room gamer or higher.

I have a lot of trouble seeing this one getting a lot more momentum unless Wyrd gives it s a serious injection of interesting stretch goals.

 cincydooley wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:
Hey Everyone, apparently sometime after posting yesterday afternoon, we broke 150,000 So that means everyone is getting one randomzied male or female mini.

Not a big update, since we all know the stretch goals at the moment.

I wish they'd show us some 3d renders of the minis at least, that might be a nice way to get people to jump into the dining room gamer or higher.

I have a lot of trouble seeing this one getting a lot more momentum unless Wyrd gives it s a serious injection of interesting stretch goals.

I agree, just trying to keep as updated as I can on this Kickstarter. I think 150,000 should have been PDF and a mini... I don't see it hitting 250k until darn near the end of the drive when people kinda jump in to a drive at the very end.

Sorta' sad to see this happening, as Wyrd makes such nice stuff (and they seem like good people), but I can't help but feel that they need to actively re-think their campaign...

I don't know about anyone else, but if they said "Sorry, Guys, that didn't work the way we were expecting, here's something better" and it was, I'd happily add more to my pledge without a second thought.

I'm currently sitting at the highest available pledge (not the 500 dollar+ one), and while the Dining Room Gamer is the sweet spot I want I just haven't changed it due to laziness...

I am severely hoping we break 300,000

I think it has more or less lost its momentum now and will only slowly creep to the 300k now.

Well. They did about 4000 and a bit each day after the "get-in-for-the-exclusive-mini-deal" stopped.

Low-balling this to 4000/day (no new vigor, no end-rush), it would take them 37 more days to hit 300.000. The campaign runs another 38 days.

So it is probably fine for just that (and the Wyrd guys don't need to make another update till after christmal )

I'm looking at rough time estimates, I posted roughly 7 hours ago, and in that time we've gone up about 2 thousand dollars...

It is going to be close, but they should make it.

Maybe all the hardcore Wyrd fans have already jumped on board, and now it is going to take some work/something special to get this thing kickstarted again...

They already met their goal. What more is needed?
Why go for excellence when mediocrity is just good enough?

The next stretch goal is an additional 25% more pledges that exist for something exceptionally underwhelming.
The stretch goal after that is in-demand, but something of negligible cost to Wyrd and somewhat disappoitning that it wasn't originally included.

The only thing they need to avoid now is dissatisfied people lowering/dropping their pledges as we near the end (similar to the BTP abortion). Considering the steady climb and the promise of a quality product at a reasonable (yet uncompetitive) price, it will just be a slow climb.

 Absolutionis wrote:
They already met their goal. What more is needed?
Why go for excellence when mediocrity is just good enough?

As much as it pains me to say it, it almost seems like that is their goal. I mean, I think this Kickstarter could be a HUGE hit, but they just don't seem to want to make it "great."

Now that I've been thinking about "all of this" for awhile I'm a bit suprised that they chose in house developement for this. I guess they didn't learn anything from PP about in house board/rpg development. If it was my company and IP I'd be liscencing it out to FF faster then you could blink.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I've started listenting to the podcast and a few things jumped out at me pretty quickly.

The first is that I've become spoiled by the Dice Tower Podcasts....

The second is their reason's for going to kickstarter. So the gist of it.... Mack says that they probably could have made the RPG using their own resources, but it wouldn't have been as nice as they would have liked it. Kickstarter is letting them get what they really want out of the game.....


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Next they go on to talk about all of the "great writers" they have on the team..... I had to google alot of them, and very few of them have had any experiance with an RPG. It would seem that creating an RPG is alot like playing baseball. Anyone that's truely good at it does it professionally for one of the big names.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
"There the best writers I think we can get" One of my new favorite quotes.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wyrd isn't happy that Kickstarter is influencing game stores.... Thats why their kickstarter is setup the way it is

 Catyrpelius wrote:
I guess they didn't learn anything from PP about in house board/rpg development.

Just curious, what's this about? I wasn't that interested (because I have the old 3.5 ones), but I thought the new IK books were received pretty well?

PP has gotten pretty burned by every boardgame they've put out so far. In the RPG world IK has been a solid Meh. meening its not bad but at the same point its not game changing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Finished up the episode, and i'll say this it could be neat.

What I got out of the podcast as a whole was a sense that Wyrd might not have as firm a finacial footing as everyone thinks.

Well they have been moving into polystrene models in a big way as well as growing their line in other ways

(as opposed to going the cheaper route with a hybrid resin like PP or Mantic)

and those moulds are expensive city and (short term) can eat liquidity even in an otherwise healthy company.

It might be why they've chosen to 'reuse' their gencon limited Miss Terious & The Hanging Tree

Update from today:

December 3rd - over 516% of funding goal

Hi everyone!

Day Six is coming to a close, so it’s time for the Daily Update! We’re rocketing into our first full Kickstarter week with a brand-new kind of update. Read on to discover the “Breach Side Chat”!

First though– catching up from the weekend! Thanks to your support, we blasted past ANOTHER Stretch Goal!

$150,000 – ACHIEVED receive an additional Male or Female Multi-Pose Mini (gender determined randomly)

We’re working hard to process your questions and suggestions. For some tasty morsels of information on Through the Breach, head to the Gamer’s Lounge and catch their special with Mack Martin! Bill (author of the special) says it’s “a full hour of Mack Martin answering as many questions as I could drag out of him. Kickstarter, Fluff, Character Creation, Fate Deck, and anything else he would tell us.” http://gamerslounge.coda.net/2012/11/30/gamers-lounge-special-through-the-breach/

Finally, get your texting, emailing, chatting units ready for the chance pick Mack’s Malifaux brain! Tomorrow from 5 p.m. ‘til 6 p.m. PST (12/4), our very own Mack Martin will be answering YOUR QUESTIONS live on UStream TV for our first Breach Side Chat! http://www.ustream.tv/channel/through-the-breach

Won’t be at a computer during that hour tomorrow? We gotcha covered. You can ask Mack questions any time in our Kickstarter Comments section (just address them “@BreachSideChat”) and he’ll see your question for the next Breach Side Chat. Plus, we’ll record every session and post it on the UStream Channel, so you can replay any Breach Side Chat you missed.

Every week, we’ll host a Breach Side Chat at a different time to try to accommodate a breadth of schedules and time zones. Keep an eye on the Updates for info on upcoming Chats!

Until Tomorrow!

Jacqulyn

This could have been huge if they had of put some effort into it, but instead it seems half-arsed. I am holding onto a pledge just in case it becomes huge, but I am not seeing it.

The pledging has slowed down when it should be burning along. If they aren't going to make the deal better than it is, I am going to drop out.

A $50k stretch goal gets you a pad of character sheets? Are you kidding me?

 Fenriswulf wrote:
A $50k stretch goal gets you a pad of character sheets? Are you kidding me?

Yea, that should definately have been a low-end pledge point instead of a stretch goal.

 Catyrpelius wrote:

Next they go on to talk about all of the "great writers" they have on the team..... I had to google alot of them, and very few of them have had any experiance with an RPG.

I guess since Mack mentioned my name in the list, I can pop up and admit my involvement on the project. I'm kind of curious, though, whom you think didn't have any experience with an RPG?

I don't think any of the authors were first time RPG writers, though I could have missed one. I admit that I've got a ridiculously common name, so googling it isn't going to pull up my RPG work right away. Feel free to hit the link in my sig (check "About Us") for a list of recent publications.

Hmmmm, your name didn't pop up, or I might have missed it in the list. Mostly I was looking for the more well known among the crowd and my list might not be as complete as I thought. I should probably change my earlier statement given my lack of a deep insight on the RPG world, to be more about the way he said it. To me, and admitidly I might be reading to much into this, but he didn't sound perticularly happy with his team. It sounded like he was being forced to make an RPG on a shoe-string budget and the only way for this RPG to turn out the way he wanted it is for the Kickstarter to be hugely successful. By hugely sucessful I'm talking about the actual money the project brings in after paying for all of the backer rewards. The way it sounds to me, Wyrd is actually running this campaign to maximize the amount of profit they make off of this Kickstarter even though they intend to put all of that profit back into the game. If you think about it, it actually explains alot, especially their stretch goals and backing levels.

Speaking of their stretch goals... Even though their not nessacarily what you might want their not actually that bad. It might have been better to release them in a different order but its a bit late for that now. Looking at the actual goals your getting a pretty good deal retail.

- "$50,000: Special Edition Fate Deck Cards will be Plastic - ACHIEVED" There is currently a plastic fate deck on the market, it's called the Puppet Deck and it retails at my FLGS for $9.99.

- "$100,000: One (or one additional) Special Edition Fate Deck - ACHIEVED" Again the current version of this retails for $9.99.

- "$150,000: One (or one additional) Male or Female Multi-Pose Mini (random gender) - ACHIEVED" The new Wyrd plastic kits retail between $11.00 and $18.00 per kit.

- "$200,000: A Pad of Character Sheets" This one is pretty hard to stick a price to. It's actually one of the stretch goals I'm most interested in. Call me old school but I still prefer to write my character out by hand.

- "$250,000: A Digital Version of the Books (at $60 pledged or more)" Most RPG's on Kickstarter make you pledge $10 for their PDF rulebook.

- "$250,000: One Special Edition Hanging Tree Mini. This miniature is of the most prominent landmark in all of Malifaux, originally made available at Gen Con 2012." From what I've read this is the actual hanging Tree Box Set.... I paid $80 for the one sitting in my closet, thats what Wyrd charged for them during Gencon.

Assuming this Kickstarter reaches $250,000 the backers at the $60 level will get roughly $110 worth of stretch rewards and at the higher levels will get roughly $120 worth of stretch rewards plus whatever the character sheets are worth to you.

From what I've seen heard of the actual game play. This could be a fun system, it sounds like it plays very close to the mini's game. Another plus for it is that it sounds like its going to be alot of fun to run.

While I'm still fairly critical of the project and I belive there are alot of things they could do better... I think I see some of their reasoning behind things and given their past proformance with Kickstarter projects I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt and go along for the ride with them.