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 marrowick wrote:
I like the idea for Defilers. Though you spelled 'flamer' as 'flammer' again. Also Perhaps the Power Scourge's cost should be dropped by five points. Against most models you need a 5 or 6 for it to affect anything 'to hit' wise.

huh? what do you mean? The Flail rule says "If one or more models are in base contact with a model with a Flail weapon at the beginning of the fight sub-phase, roll a D3 and subtract the result from the Weapon Skill of those models (to a minimum of 1) for the duration of the phase. This applies even if the model with the Flail weapon is attacking using a different melee weapon"

what do you mean you need a 5 or 6 for to affect anything?

Maverike_prime wrote:

 marrowick wrote:
I like the idea for Defilers. Though you spelled 'flamer' as 'flammer' again. Also Perhaps the Power Scourge's cost should be dropped by five points. Against most models you need a 5 or 6 for it to affect anything 'to hit' wise.

huh? what do you mean? The Flail rule says "If one or more models are in base contact with a model with a Flail weapon at the beginning of the fight sub-phase, roll a D3 and subtract the result from the Weapon Skill of those models (to a minimum of 1) for the duration of the phase. This applies even if the model with the Flail weapon is attacking using a different melee weapon"

what do you mean you need a 5 or 6 for to affect anything?

Weapon Skill is used to determine the needed result to hit. As the Helbrutes WS is 4 then anything with a Weapon Skill of 2-4 will hit him on a 4+. So he needs to subtract the models WS 1 to make much of a difference as while it will be useful against specialists and ICs whose WS will usually be 5 or higher most models will have WS 4 he needs a 5 or 6 (as per D3 rules) to make their needed result a 5+.

 marrowick wrote:

Maverike_prime wrote:

 marrowick wrote:
I like the idea for Defilers. Though you spelled 'flamer' as 'flammer' again. Also Perhaps the Power Scourge's cost should be dropped by five points. Against most models you need a 5 or 6 for it to affect anything 'to hit' wise.

huh? what do you mean? The Flail rule says "If one or more models are in base contact with a model with a Flail weapon at the beginning of the fight sub-phase, roll a D3 and subtract the result from the Weapon Skill of those models (to a minimum of 1) for the duration of the phase. This applies even if the model with the Flail weapon is attacking using a different melee weapon"

what do you mean you need a 5 or 6 for to affect anything?

Weapon Skill is used to determine the needed result to hit. As the Helbrutes WS is 4 then anything with a Weapon Skill of 2-4 will hit him on a 4+. So he needs to subtract the models WS 1 to make much of a difference as while it will be useful against specialists and ICs whose WS will usually be 5 or higher most models will have WS 4 he needs a 5 or 6 (as per D3 rules) to make their needed result a 5+.

eh, I get what you're saying I just don't agree with it on face value. even a minus 1 to WS is a notable change and can radically devalue a unit. Like with the Berzerkers compared to Chosen I was talking about a couple posts back. That defiler with the power scourge gets charged by the berzerkers. It rolls a 1. And it literally just took away the only thing that was differentiating the Berzerkers from the Chosen. And that's a worst case scenario.

 marrowick wrote:
I like the idea for Defilers. Though you spelled 'flamer' as 'flammer' again. Also Perhaps the Power Scourge's cost should be dropped by five points. Against most models you need a 5 or 6 for it to affect anything 'to hit' wise.

The idea of the defiler is horrible. The reasoning for this is as following:
First you buff the defiler giving it a way better weapon.
Then you buff it again by lowering its point cost almost by a quarter (Imagine a space marine squad costing 52 points).
On top of that, they already got a big buff from the 7'th edition rules.

I understand that defiler's needed a buff, not fun to bring a 200 point vehicle that can be popped with one shot turn 1. But the new rules in 7'th looks promising to address that.

If you want to buff something, it should be done with care, not slapping on 3 buffs at one time and calling it a day.

flodihn wrote:

 marrowick wrote:
I like the idea for Defilers. Though you spelled 'flamer' as 'flammer' again. Also Perhaps the Power Scourge's cost should be dropped by five points. Against most models you need a 5 or 6 for it to affect anything 'to hit' wise.

The idea of the defiler is horrible. The reasoning for this is as following:
First you buff the defiler giving it a way better weapon.
Then you buff it again by lowering its point cost almost by a quarter (Imagine a space marine squad costing 52 points).
On top of that, they already got a big buff from the 7'th edition rules.

I understand that defiler's needed a buff, not fun to bring a 200 point vehicle that can be popped with one shot turn 1. But the new rules in 7'th looks promising to address that.

If you want to buff something, it should be done with care, not slapping on 3 buffs at one time and calling it a day.

I'm sorry, but what?

It went from a range 72" S8 AP3 Large Blast main gun to a to a Range 24" S8 AP2 blast with Gets hot with a t.linked re-roll (or twice the chance to burn yourself as it seems to be in this area). Yeah better AP, bust less range, smaller blast and a change to glance yourself. So I'd call that a bit of a down grade.

It also starts with 2 fewer attacks because it doesn't have 2 power fists.

And as for the price reduction... lets play that through real quick:

Standard Defiler out of the codex costs:195 points and comes with the following
-Battle Cannon
-Reaper Autocannon
-Twin-linked Heavy Flamer
-Two power fists
-Daemonic possession
-Searchlight
-Smock Launchers

Special Rules:
- Daemon
- Daermonforge
- Fleet
- It Will Not Die

And all that for 195.

My revamped version starts at: 170 with the following:
Wargear:
Twin-linked Ectoplasm Cannon
Reaper Autocannon
Twin-linked Heavy flammer
Daemonic Possession
Searchlight
Smoke Launchers

Special Rules:
Daemon
Daemonforge
Fleet
It Will Not Die

So for 45 points less you no longer have the ability to engage units beyond 36" range, and don't have a pie plate attack to take out massed units oh and your big gun.... has a 1 in 6 chance of hurting yourself. And you wont be attacking with 5 attacks on the charge but only 4. I know that doesn't sound like much, but considering it's WS3 that extra attack could be the difference between killing a Hive Tyrant and just royally pissing it off.

"But I want my battle cannon!" i hear.

Fine. It's 25 points. So now you're at 175 points. Yeah now you've got you're 72" range and pie plate attack back.

"Oh but I want those S10 power fist attacks." Well, okay you can have 'em but you'll pay for 'em, and I think you're falling back into the original problem of the defiler not actually know what it's trying to be. So you want you're power fists. Fine. 10 points each.

And now you're back up to the original price and stats of the one from the Codex.

So either you're just screaming fowl with no real presented justification, or you're saying that the defiler in the current Codex is under costed, which... I have to disagree with since it's a mis-match of roles to begin with.

Maverike_prime wrote:

flodihn wrote:

 marrowick wrote:
I like the idea for Defilers. Though you spelled 'flamer' as 'flammer' again. Also Perhaps the Power Scourge's cost should be dropped by five points. Against most models you need a 5 or 6 for it to affect anything 'to hit' wise.

The idea of the defiler is horrible. The reasoning for this is as following:
First you buff the defiler giving it a way better weapon.
Then you buff it again by lowering its point cost almost by a quarter (Imagine a space marine squad costing 52 points).
On top of that, they already got a big buff from the 7'th edition rules.

I understand that defiler's needed a buff, not fun to bring a 200 point vehicle that can be popped with one shot turn 1. But the new rules in 7'th looks promising to address that.

If you want to buff something, it should be done with care, not slapping on 3 buffs at one time and calling it a day.

I'm sorry, but what?

It went from a range 72" S8 AP3 Large Blast main gun to a to a Range 24" S8 AP3 blast with Gets hot with a t.linked re-roll (or twice the chance to burn yourself as it seems to be in this area). Yeah better AP, bust less range, smaller blast and a change to glance yourself. So I'd call that a bit of a down grade.

You probably mean AP2 in the ectoplasma stat line.

It also starts with 2 fewer attacks because it doesn't have 2 power fists.

Note taken, I did not see that.

And as for the price reduction... lets play that through real quick:

Standard Defiler out of the codex costs:195 points and comes with the following
-Battle Cannon
-Reaper Autocannon
-Twin-linked Heavy Flamer
-Two power fists
-Daemonic possession
-Searchlight
-Smock Launchers

Special Rules:
- Daemon
- Daermonforge
- Fleet
- It Will Not Die

And all that for 195.

My revamped version starts at: 170 with the following:

You probably mean 150 points here.

Wargear:
Twin-linked Ectoplasm Cannon
Reaper Autocannon
Twin-linked Heavy flammer
Daemonic Possession
Searchlight
Smoke Launchers

Special Rules:
Daemon
Daemonforge
Fleet
It Will Not Die

So for 45 points less you no longer have the ability to engage units beyond 36" range, and don't have a pie plate attack to take out massed units oh and your big gun.... has a 1 in 6 chance of hurting yourself. And you wont be attacking with 5 attacks on the charge but only 4. I know that doesn't sound like much, but considering it's WS3 that extra attack could be the difference between killing a Hive Tyrant and just royally pissing it off.

No you don't have 1/6 chance of hurting yourself, since the weapon is twin-linked you can re-roll if you first dice is a 1.

"But I want my battle cannon!" i hear.

Fine. It's 25 points. So now you're at 175 points. Yeah now you've got you're 72" range and pie plate attack back.

"Oh but I want those S10 power fist attacks." Well, okay you can have 'em but you'll pay for 'em, and I think you're falling back into the original problem of the defiler not actually know what it's trying to be. So you want you're power fists. Fine. 10 points each.

And now you're back up to the original price and stats of the one from the Codex.

So either you're just screaming fowl with no real presented justification, or you're saying that the defiler in the current Codex is under costed, which... I have to disagree with since it's a mis-match of roles to begin with.

I agree with this, when I look at the defiler, forgefiend and maulerfriend I don't understand what the author was thinking. They are three very similar units filling somewhat similar roles.

Looking into your changes, I am even more confused. It seems like you wanted to give the defiler a more defined role as a long range heavy support unit since you removed it's powerfists, but then you also removed its long ranged support option.
It would made more sense if you kept the battle cannon with no fists (for long range heavy support), or the ectoplasma cannonan and power fists (for assault unit).

Another issue I see with your change of defiler, is that you also need to make some heavy changes to the forgefiend, because it comes at 175 points, 200 points for an ectoplasama cannon, 1 less Hit point and way less weapons.


Something I liked was the Dawn of War version of the defiler as an agressive cheap and weaker assault/support unit, that might be a more interesting route to go with the defiler.

flodihn wrote:

Maverike_prime wrote:

flodihn wrote:

 marrowick wrote:
I like the idea for Defilers. Though you spelled 'flamer' as 'flammer' again. Also Perhaps the Power Scourge's cost should be dropped by five points. Against most models you need a 5 or 6 for it to affect anything 'to hit' wise.

The idea of the defiler is horrible. The reasoning for this is as following:
First you buff the defiler giving it a way better weapon.
Then you buff it again by lowering its point cost almost by a quarter (Imagine a space marine squad costing 52 points).
On top of that, they already got a big buff from the 7'th edition rules.

I understand that defiler's needed a buff, not fun to bring a 200 point vehicle that can be popped with one shot turn 1. But the new rules in 7'th looks promising to address that.

If you want to buff something, it should be done with care, not slapping on 3 buffs at one time and calling it a day.

I'm sorry, but what?

It went from a range 72" S8 AP3 Large Blast main gun to a to a Range 24" S8 AP3 blast with Gets hot with a t.linked re-roll (or twice the chance to burn yourself as it seems to be in this area). Yeah better AP, bust less range, smaller blast and a change to glance yourself. So I'd call that a bit of a down grade.

You probably mean AP2 in the ectoplasma stat line.

It also starts with 2 fewer attacks because it doesn't have 2 power fists.

Note taken, I did not see that.

And as for the price reduction... lets play that through real quick:

Standard Defiler out of the codex costs:195 points and comes with the following
-Battle Cannon
-Reaper Autocannon
-Twin-linked Heavy Flamer
-Two power fists
-Daemonic possession
-Searchlight
-Smock Launchers

Special Rules:
- Daemon
- Daermonforge
- Fleet
- It Will Not Die

And all that for 195.

My revamped version starts at: 170 with the following:

You probably mean 150 points here.

Wargear:
Twin-linked Ectoplasm Cannon
Reaper Autocannon
Twin-linked Heavy flammer
Daemonic Possession
Searchlight
Smoke Launchers

Special Rules:
Daemon
Daemonforge
Fleet
It Will Not Die

So for 45 points less you no longer have the ability to engage units beyond 36" range, and don't have a pie plate attack to take out massed units oh and your big gun.... has a 1 in 6 chance of hurting yourself. And you wont be attacking with 5 attacks on the charge but only 4. I know that doesn't sound like much, but considering it's WS3 that extra attack could be the difference between killing a Hive Tyrant and just royally pissing it off.

No you don't have 1/6 chance of hurting yourself, since the weapon is twin-linked you can re-roll if you first dice is a 1.

"But I want my battle cannon!" i hear.

Fine. It's 25 points. So now you're at 175 points. Yeah now you've got you're 72" range and pie plate attack back.

"Oh but I want those S10 power fist attacks." Well, okay you can have 'em but you'll pay for 'em, and I think you're falling back into the original problem of the defiler not actually know what it's trying to be. So you want you're power fists. Fine. 10 points each.

And now you're back up to the original price and stats of the one from the Codex.

So either you're just screaming fowl with no real presented justification, or you're saying that the defiler in the current Codex is under costed, which... I have to disagree with since it's a mis-match of roles to begin with.

I agree with this, when I look at the defiler, forgefiend and maulerfriend I don't understand what the author was thinking. They are three very similar units filling somewhat similar roles.

Looking into your changes, I am even more confused. It seems like you wanted to give the defiler a more defined role as a long range heavy support unit since you removed it's powerfists, but then you also removed its long ranged support option.
It would made more sense if you kept the battle cannon with no fists (for long range heavy support), or the ectoplasma cannonan and power fists (for assault unit).

Another issue I see with your change of defiler, is that you also need to make some heavy changes to the forgefiend, because it comes at 175 points, 200 points for an ectoplasama cannon, 1 less Hit point and way less weapons.


Something I liked was the Dawn of War version of the defiler as an agressive cheap and weaker assault/support unit, that might be a more interesting route to go with the defiler.

okay I donno what the heck is going on with my keyboard/posting today when it comes to numbers. But yes, I did mean AP2 (I even explicitly went back and changed that, twice originally) and yes the 150 likewise.

as for the not 1/6 chance of glancing yourself, if you'll notice my earlier comment "or twice the chance to burn yourself as it seems to be in this area" I know the twin-linked makes it less likely to hurt yourself. it does not remove the risk all together. 1/6*2 is still a chance of hurting yourself. That's the part I think people miss. Yeah, the battle cannons has a better strength and better range then the ectoplasm cannon. The EctoPlasm cannon has a better AP value. It also has a chance to get hurt and burn off a hull point. So 1/3 the range with a better ap and a chance to hurt yourself compared to 72" range with a wide area of effect. I'm still going to put the Battle cannon higher of list of "Eff you up" because of the range of pie plate ability. The EctoPlasm cannon is no freebie throw away option though. But It makes more sense, at least to me and if you disagree with this feel free to do so I only ask you post your own thought process, to start with the Ecto cannon and provide an option to upgrade to the battle cannon rather then the reverse.

As for my intention for the Defiler, it's one of directed versatility. Want to make it a close combat monster? Give it 3 power fists and a power scourge and keep the Ecto Cannon. Guess what? You've now got a 4 HP walker, with 6 S10 attacks on the charge. That's gonna eff some stuff up!! Oh and as a bonus? You get to Over watch with the Ecto Plasm cannon.

But what if you want to go for a mid-range fire support role? Okay, take a pair of heavy bolters in place of the Reaper guns and swap the Flamers for a havoc launcher. You're optimum engagement range is now about 24" And pretty much anything on the end of that 24" is going to be a mess load of pain eating a twin-linked Havoc shot, 3 Heavy bolter shots (assuming you the heavy bolter of course) and an Ecto-plasm cannon hit that is again twin-linked. That's a lot of pain to bring.

But I want to use the defiler as a long range fire base. Cool. Swap the Ecto cannon for the Battle Cannon, take a LasCannon and swap the flamer for a havoc launcher. Sure you're sacraficing mid-range fire support options for your ranged abilities as well as number of shots but you are gaining range over.... well... a fair portion of the entire game.

I have to kind of beat this mental set up into myself because the book just doesn't seem to support it but it's all I can come up with.

The Forge Fiend is the super-dakka dread.
The Mauler fiend is the super CC dread
The Defiler, should be able to out class either of those if it is given over to that role explicitly. As I've laid out, if it's given totally over to Close combat ability, it should be able to eff up a Mauler fiend. If it's given over totally to shooting, it should be able to out dakka the Forge Fiend. But it should not be able to do both at the same time.

As for the Dawn of War comment, I agree completely. It's always nice when I get 9 Defilers built and I decide to knock on my neighbors door to ask to barrow a cup of his soul. It's just such a warm and fuzzy feeling....

However, in Dawn of war, a fully kitted Defiler clocks in at a not exactly astounding 150 req and 260 energy. while a fully kitted out Predator with lascannons will set you back a more painful 585 req and 750 Energy, nearly 4 times the resource cost of the defiler. While in 40k the heaviest hitting defiler you can field will clock in at 257 points while the predator with Lascannons and every piece of dakka you can throw on the thing will make it's mark for at most 207 points. A 50 point difference and an operational difference of... well you're a flipping moron for spending that much on a pred that can't even make use of 2/3 of the extras you slapped on it. Can a Predator use 3 lascannons, a havoc launcher, and a combi-bolter and a Combi-gun? ... yeeess it CAN, if it stays still. Otherwise it's really kind of wasted add ons. While by comparison is the defiler going to use it's main gun, weather it be a battle cannon or the Ecto cannon? Yeah, pretty good chance it will use it. Will it use it's Havoc Launcher? Hmm certainly possible but no garuntee of it but again no loss if it doesn't. Will it use the two-power fists it starts with? ..... it might. It certainly might. If it doesn't... eh that kind of hurts cause you are paying for the gun to have those fists. Will it use it's daemon special rule? Almost with out a doubt since that gives it a 5+ invuln. Oh and let's not forget it causes fear. Nice plus. But on a gun wagon? Will it use fleet? It might, if it's given totally over to being a CC monster. will it use It Will not die? Yeah, almost with out a doubt.

So while I would love the idea of making Defilers a 1-3 squadron option and seeing people with 9 of these gribbly monsters running around the board.... yeah.... 9 x 200 points a piece.... I'm sorry, we're playing 4,000 points right? So then the option is to drop the price of the defiler to say 120-150. 150 is a bit steep for squadrons but doable if you build the army right. 120 is more in line for it, but a defiler... for 120 points? Does it still have all of it's rules and guns? Yes? Okay, there's "that's a steal" and then there's "are you flipping brain dead stupid good steal". a Defiler, for 120 points is an extreme example of the later. So, we need to start taking stuff off of it for that lower price tag.

So.... well I suggested we take out the power fists, and replace the battle cannon with a Ecto cannon for 150. So to get it down to 120.... um... well loose the Reaper autocannons. That'd be worth... what? 10 points? Okay, so we're at 140. Um let's loose the Heavy flamers. I figure those are worth 5 points. So 135. Still got 15 points to go. um... well I would say remove either Daemon, DaemonForge, or It Will Not die as any of those could be worth about 15 points, well maybe not Daemon forge because we've striped out most of the guns so it's value has kind of gone down so lets say that Daemon forge is worth about 10 points in this configuration. So we remove daemon forge. And we're down to 125.

So now we've got a walker, with a twin-linked Ecto Cannon, 3 attacks, 4 HPs, that has a 5+ invul, causes fear, ignores Crew shaken and stunned, and is WS/BS 3 and gets it will not die for 125 points.

Just chatting away with some mates of mine and we came up with this

Shattered vows (renegades)
Any unit that fails a ld test due to taking 25% casualties to shooting regroups automatically at the beginning of there movement phase, the unit can still however be run down due to a sweeping advance.

Its pseudo atsknf but represents the early onset of the loss of discipline that affects renegades.

Hope it helps

 Formosa wrote:
Just chatting away with some mates of mine and we came up with this

Shattered vows (renegades)
Any unit that fails a ld test due to taking 25% casualties to shooting regroups automatically at the beginning of there movement phase, the unit can still however be run down due to a sweeping advance.

Its pseudo atsknf but represents the early onset of the loss of discipline that affects renegades.

Hope it helps

hm let me mull that one over for a bit. It has it's merits.

proposal on the defiler,

may swap 2 power fists for anchor claws - free

anchor claws
at the start of the movement phase a model can declare its using anchor claws, its cover save is reduced by 1 (if it has one) and it may not move that turn. during that turns shooting phase it can fire all its non ordnance weapons twice and can fire ordnance weapons in addition to its other weapons.

this isn't out of nowhere, the iron warriors player in our group has been looking into siege units and came up with this idea, the penalty to cover save is due to the fact is anchored itself to the ground and cannot actively hide behind cover. kitting a defiler out in this way removes all the cc weapons unless you add them to the main turret allowing you to go all dakka.

we have play tested this and the end result is that the while the dakka volume is ridiculous (havoc launchers ftw), the platform is fragile and hopeless in cc where S8 ap- attacks accomplish very little, and is actually worth the defiler ridiculous price.

dakfilers as they are now known are less mobile than the fiends, and still cannot pull anti air as they rely mostly on template weapons, yet they hurl a lot of abuse in a general direction so we like them all the same.

the opinion on defiler options is keep the stupid price, but allow you to go all dakka or all cc and punish those who stay in the middle as paying 195+ points is worth it when both ends are that good


this price now makes some sense as

 Blackskull wrote:
proposal on the defiler,

may swap 2 power fists for anchor claws - free

anchor claws
at the start of the movement phase a model can declare its using anchor claws, its cover save is reduced by 1 (if it has one) and it may not move that turn. during that turns shooting phase it can fire all its non ordnance weapons twice and can fire ordnance weapons in addition to its other weapons.

this isn't out of nowhere, the iron warriors player in our group has been looking into siege units and came up with this idea, the penalty to cover save is due to the fact is anchored itself to the ground and cannot actively hide behind cover. kitting a defiler out in this way removes all the cc weapons unless you add them to the main turret allowing you to go all dakka.

we have play tested this and the end result is that the while the dakka volume is ridiculous (havoc launchers ftw), the platform is fragile and hopeless in cc where S8 ap- attacks accomplish very little, and is actually worth the defiler ridiculous price.

dakfilers as they are now known are less mobile than the fiends, and still cannot pull anti air as they rely mostly on template weapons, yet they hurl a lot of abuse in a general direction so we like them all the same.

the opinion on defiler options is keep the stupid price, but allow you to go all dakka or all cc and punish those who stay in the middle as paying 195+ points is worth it when both ends are that good


this price now makes some sense as

You know, one of the first ideas I had when I started looking at the Defiler was to give it the ability to immobilize itself and gain increased fire power via a +1 S and Barrage to it's battle cannon,

You could easily add that as part of deamonforge?

 Formosa wrote:
You could easily add that as part of deamonforge?

Yes, I could but that would simply exacerbate the problem of the Defiler Vs Forge Fiend Vs Mauler fiend.

That's true, but it would make the forge field horrible to face at 24"

 Formosa wrote:
That's true, but it would make the forge field horrible to face at 24"

See that's the sort of problem that already plagues the codex, the redundant, or blanket special rules that work in some instances, but hurt in others. Icon of Flame on Possessed? Mark of Slaanesh on Obliterators? re-writing Daemonforge with an ability that's really only of value to one of the 4 units that have it is just a continuation of the problem.

I agree, is there not some way to make df more specific to each unit?

Such as

Helldrake: rr failed hits and wounds

Mauler fiend: same

Defiler: remain stationary and fire twice with non ordnance.

Forge fiend: same as above.

Seems simple.

 Formosa wrote:
I agree, is there not some way to make df more specific to each unit?

Such as

Helldrake: rr failed hits and wounds

Mauler fiend: same

Defiler: remain stationary and fire twice with non ordnance.

Forge fiend: same as above.

Seems simple.

effectively making one rule just with a bunch of sub-headers.

All units with this rule have this effect (which is 4 units btw)
But unit A does this.
And Unit B does This.
While Unit C does this.
And Unit D does this.

So either make 1 rule that has 4 sections, or make 4 rules separate rules. Or you know, 2 rules one for Forge/Mauler fiends, and one for Filers/Drakes or whatever break down you want to go with.

The crux of the debate is that the Forge Fiend and Mauler fiend are both really good units for what you get, and have I've explained previously the Defiler should be able to be better then either of them, if they are given over to that goal but only one at a time. A defiler should be able to be equipped in such a way that it can out-shoot a Forge Fiend, but when doing so it shouldn't be able to out-muscle a Mauler fiend.

Ok that makes alot of sense, so monkeying with the sf isn't the way to go, just simply add the rule

Bound by devastation or hellfire or somesuch and plonk it in there

 Formosa wrote:
Ok that makes alot of sense, so monkeying with the sf isn't the way to go, just simply add the rule

Bound by devastation or hellfire or somesuch and plonk it in there

not unless there is a viable reason for it. as it stands right now Soul Forge is a pretty solid rule with a standard effect across the board. Unless I find reason to change the way Soul Forge works, I don't see any reason in expending the effort. If it's not broke, don't fix it and all that.

Agreed, it's actually one of the only decent rules in the book.

Also I'm surprised no one has mentioned it but rather than calling it fleshmetal and a 2+ save, why not use the old name and call it deamon armour for a 2+ save, for independent character of course, oblits can keep the same name they have.

And chaplains had the acursed crozius that gave them a 4++, a chaos Lord back then could take it and effectively was a chaos chaplain.

 Formosa wrote:
Agreed, it's actually one of the only decent rules in the book.

Also I'm surprised no one has mentioned it but rather than calling it fleshmetal and a 2+ save, why not use the old name and call it deamon armour for a 2+ save, for independent character of course, oblits can keep the same name they have.

And chaplains had the acursed crozius that gave them a 4++, a chaos Lord back then could take it and effectively was a chaos chaplain.

7
actually people have mentioned it. a lot. "Why have flesh armor? Why not give then the option of artificer/masterwork/daemon/whatever armor?"

bottom line: it's a 2+ save.

Sure the fluff behind each is different: One is a super well built suit of armor. one is daemonic energy that protcts the wearer, one has a bunch of extra stuff that makes it better then normal armor ect ect.


and in game, it's still a 2+ save.

I don't want to have this in the codex:

Flesh Metal armor gives a 2+ save.
Artificer Armor gives a 2+ save
Daemon armor gives a 2+ save

point on anchor claws, they are wargear, not an extra rule we added to the defiler. you have to replace both the defilers powerfists to get them and that leaves it with no other cc weapons so its stuck making S8 ap- attacks in cc.

all we did was give our swiss army walker some extra attachments we didn't touch deamonforge in the slightest as it didn't need fiddling with. its a good rule already

under subject of flesh metal we were thinking of adding IWND to it, obliterators and mutilators grow their weapons out of their own bodies, they could also seal up bullet holes and what have you so the rule makes sense. also offers an nice distinction allowing the addition of deamonforge armour for the "just a 2+ save"

Deamon armour: 2+, 5++, becomes a deamon 20pts

Articifer armour: 2+ 10pts

Flesh metal: 2+, 5+ it will not die 20pts

The rules are only limited by your imagination mav, and as I told you before names are important as it helps conjure a theme and feel of the army.

So deamon armour would allow the character to join possessed, allow him to join deamon packs too maybe, it could represent a chaos marine on the way to deamon PrinceDom

Articifer armour is just the basic armour.

Flesh metal can represent a captain or something infected with the obliteration virus, and you even add another bit if Wargear called obliterater weapons for 25pts or something.

Skies the limit

speaking of possessed any idea what we should do with them?
cc is done better by the cheaper and better by berserkers who have a shooting option. if you start adding options to possessed you encroach on the terminator territory points cost, and they stomp possessed dead.

they are a purely fluff unit, who's models are only used for conversions, which is outclassed by the other options in the codex.

crimson slaughter made them halfway useable by placing a better random table and taking them as troops. but still not a great unit.

from lexicanum
Many Marines have allowed themselves to be possessed to show their devotion to their Chaos God or to gain the unearthly power that only daemonic possession can bring. The majority of the time, a possessed retains control over his actions, the daemon never permanently displacing the mortal mind of the Marine. It is only during times of bloodshed and battle that the daemon comes to dominate the pairing, assuming complete control over the shared body. The Marine, already a savage warrior, becomes an utterly relentless and bestial destroyer. His body no longer feels pain. The daemon given free reign, mutates the Marine's human form further into daemonic and inhuman shapes.

fluff rules that can be extracted from this
Fnp in cc where the demon calls the shots
random mutations in cc as the daemon exerts himself
looks and acts like a normal chaos marine from the outside until the daemon is given control, (maybe a rule like the night goblin fanatics)

I shared this with my club and the following rules were made, they are yet to be tested I must add.

WS4 BS4 S4 T4 W1 I4 A2 Sv 3+
Deamon
Rapid mutation
Fearless
one of us

one of us
possessed may be represented on the table as a standard chaos space marine unit with no upgrades, you do not tell your opponent that unit is possessed but you mark on your roster which unit it is and you pay the points cost for the possessed. if that unit charges or is charged you may reveal them as possessed and roll 3 times on the rapid mutation table

rapid mutation
you roll on this table at the start of every turn and whenever the unit charges and enemy unit, the bonuses are permanent and do not stack
Rapid mutation
1, the unit becomes beast
2, the unit gains +1 toughness
3, the unit gains rending on melee attacks
4, the unit gains fleet
5, the unit gains FnP in close combat
6, the unit gains two rolls on this table

if you roll a result you already have roll on this table, these bonuses stack
1, the unit gains +1 Strength
2, the unit gains +1 attack
3, one member of the unit (randomly chosen) is replaced with a chaos spawn model on full wounds as per the spawnhood roll

thoughts

Have you seen the gal vorbak, cos that's how possessed should. Be, I cannot stand the random table for them.

 Formosa wrote:
Have you seen the gal vorbak, cos that's how possessed should. Be, I cannot stand the random table for them.

I'll be honest, I always felt that the Gol Vorbak was a unique example of possessed marines, like how Abaddon is a unique example in the category of "Undivided Chaos Lord". so basing possessed as a unit off of the Gal Vorback may not be the best move.

I'm not asking for possessed to be the same, just.removal of a random mechanic all chaos players have hated since it was introduced in 4th, just let them upgrade to.deamons of x

Deamon of slaanesh: +1 i, rending attacks

Nurgle: +1 t, feel no pain or shroud

Khorne: +1 attack, rage, hatred, furious charge.

Tzeench: brotherhood of psykers, mastery 1, tzeench powers only or brb powers as normal chaos, no deamonology.

Then allow the unit normal chaos.marine upgrades, like vet can.take.power fist etc.

Whole unit can upgrade to be either
Beasts for x pts each
Jump infantry x pts each

Add icons etc

And there you have a non random possessed unit that isn't boring and useless.

Seem a bit bland for possessed to me. They aren't much different than marked marines/raptors

Neither are current possessed..cos they basically are marked marines with a random useless skill, I just want control over the skills they get for a points cost, random possessed killed them for now 4 editions, that's got to change.

Me and the lads been chatting again and we considered some relics that may suit renegades, hope it help mav

The halo of infinite darkness. 35pts
Once the icon of the greatest of humanity and now the example that even the greatest hero's can fall to dark temptations, the halo of infinite darkness exudes a palpable aura of corruption and hate, witch light shines around its once glorious peak and screams with the broken souls of those betrayed by its master.

The halo of infinite darkness confers a 4+ invulnerable save to its bearer, it also confers the blind usr to all of the bearers close combat attacks and the fear usr.

The broken sword 40pts
What chapter this blade originated from non can guess, it exudes a aura of darkness that conceals the bearer from the strongest of witches and draws the light of the darkest souls around it, screaming for revenge against there murderers.

The broken sword: str +2, ap3 two handed.
The broken sword confers the following usrs to its bearer: shroud, preferred enemy (dark angels), hatred (dark angels) adamantium will.

I got more if you guys like these