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 Melissia wrote:

 TheRedWingArmada wrote:
What would 40k be without Space Marines, while we're on the subject? It ould be Orkz v. Eldar.

Also IG vs Orks. Also Chaos vs Imperium. Also Tau vs Orks. Also Tyranids vs Everyone. Necrons vs Whoever the Feth They Want to Fight. Shall I go on?

40K without Space Marines would simply be 40K without Space Marines. The same setting, except less.

Now, if 40k didn't have IG or Orks, it wouldn't be 40k any more

But jokes aside, I'm still curious as to how slapping on a bunch of old special weapons makes CSMs "unique" as opposed to using Chaos-focused stuff like marks, mutations, or minor psychic powers or... anything, really.

 Melissia wrote:
Now, if 40k didn't have IG or Orks, it wouldn't be 40k any more

But jokes aside, I'm still curious as to how slapping on a bunch of old special weapons makes CSMs "unique" as opposed to using Chaos-focused stuff like marks, mutations, or minor psychic powers or... anything, really.

It is not enough. I do not think anyone is asking to reduce CSM to SM+weapons. If someone is I may have missed it and I do disagree with it if so, but CSM have a few things that should make them different from SM;

1. Visual design (Archaic-looking armour, horns, spikes, sigils...)

2. Armoury (Tech-heresies, Daemon Engines)

3. Army Theme (Instead of a tight-knit band of super-effective disciplined soldiers, CSM can be anything from just that to a mob of bloodthirsty berserkers to even smaller but very mighty spiteful veteran units...)

4. Available allies

5. Chaos wargear (Minor psychic powers and marks like you say, mutations as long as they are kept optional and mutationless is viable, different weapons and other equipment)

That is all I can think of right now.

 Melissia wrote:

Chaospling wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
What about people who play Chaos but don't play CSMs?

What about them?

Because not everyone who plays Chaos wants to play Chaos Space Marines. And yet people keep acting like that's the only choice we should have.

Besides, as I explained before, by adding more Chaos factions, we also increase the ability of CSM players to bring in more allies, so it DOES effect CSM players positively anyway.

It would help Alpha Legion, for example, to be able to include LatD allies. And there's the Blood Pact and other such fluffy armies that would be great additions to other Chaos Marine forces, if you really have to focus on them. Excellent Battle Brothers fodder.

No I didn't mean that - I like all aspects of Chaos so yeah it would be great with a Lost and the Damned codex - I meant what about the people who want this? No one are keeping them down I think... They should start some threads or post in this thread if they want to... I certainly wouldn't call them whiners if they spoke up

 TheRedWingArmada wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:

 KorPhaeron77 wrote:
Can we get back on track. I would genuinely love to hear other Chaos players views on what would make our codex good again and if they disagree with any of my points, what would they change. If you don't play Chaos and never did back in the day then that's fine but can we leave out the accusations of whining and the listing of armies that have a worse book than us. LATD should get their own thread if we are going to discuss what that should include. There are some really good points in this thread, let's not dilute it with personal bickering hey.

I've got one that would give the army an entirely different feel to nomal marines, (I already do this with my havocs), and bring a bit of power back to the dex. Allow CSM units (as in the basic troop unit) to have upto 4 special weapons if at least 10 strong. Its nothing major yet allows each basic troop unit to be reasonably powerful and differentiates it from a basic C:SM unit. Having the current ability to take 2 spec wepons instead of atsknf, grav, pods etc etc, just doesn't cut it. You'd still be paying the points for it, a 10 man unit with no marks and 4 plasma guns would come to 190pts and still be wiped out as easily by nearby grav cents or focused serpent fire.

Chaos Chosen already do this, and you only need a 6 man squad to max out your weapons effectiveness without buying extra bolters and ccw's. That said, while 6 is the golden number, I still think 10 for Transport purposes, minus 1 for every IC that joins the squad. Since Unbound came out, I can play my CSM's the way I think they should be played to make Challenges work. Each CC-Squad takes an extra Chaos Lord, that way you can switch between him and the sargeant when it comes to who is going to suicide and who is going to eat the squads lunch.

And for those wondering, "Why 6?" 1 is the Champ getting Melee and Ranged weapons. 4 of them are straight options and the last one is a "heavy weapons" option, which pretty much means Melta. So 6 man Chosen Squad with 5 melta's and a combi-melta.

Thing is that involves paying premium for chosen and still having to fill troops slots somewhere if not going unbound. 13pt marines with the option of 4 spec weapins means no extra (chosen) tax. Havocs can already do this, but again do not fill up the required troops slots. If basic marine squads could do this the dex would have that bit more power. Also I would always prefer to have extra wounds in the squad so as not to lose a 23pt model with each casualty.

Okay, Melissa doesn't like CSM. We get it. But many of us do. For some they're the reason they got into the game in the first place.

There are many that believe SOB should be squatted and I highly disagree with them. I also don't think CSM should be downplayed.

What does any of this have to do with the thread topic? Let's move on.

This however would not be the required fix - just one of many.

Hm, whilst the Lost and the damned were 'Damned' cool, I don't think a full codex would live up to expectations. A supplement? I think that would be better, perhaps they could do some kind of double supplement where it works for IG and CSM? who knows. But if any supplements are coming for chaos it would just be offensive for it not to be legions.

Mutations without marks would be nice too. Or CT style rules. Maybe machines that don't look like dinosaurs. I mean come on- not EVERY machine chaos ever touches mutates into a mini me of Godzilla.

 MWHistorian wrote:
Okay, Melissa doesn't like CSM. We get it. But many of us do. For some they're the reason they got into the game in the first place.

There are many that believe SOB should be squatted and I highly disagree with them. I also don't think CSM should be downplayed.

You liking CSMs doesn't make it any less rude to lie and claim that I wish to get rid of CSMs entirely.

And it is rude of you. Stop lying.

Poly Ranger wrote:
Mutations without marks would be nice too. Or CT style rules. Maybe machines that don't look like dinosaurs. I mean come on- not EVERY machine chaos ever touches mutates into a mini me of Godzilla.

I think spider-walkers are cooler anyway. Chaos has some awesome looking automatons at times.

Needs more defiler, less raptordactyl.

Melissia, I am totally with you on the LATD, they should have got a codex a long time ago. Or at the very least, a supplement to go with CSM. However, this thread is about what is wrong with the Chaos Space Marine codex and what needs to happen to bring them back to their peak.

LATD were an idea that while important to the setting, were never expanded on beyond the EOT campaign. We could do a whole thread and what they could include to make them a full army in 7th.

However Chaos Space Marines have already had a codex that represented them and their fluff. I've made the point several times now, but the problem is not more or less buffs, under or over powered. It's the frustration that GW got it right, or as close to right as we could ever be happy with. But then for some crazy reason, they ripped that codex into tiny pieces and pretend like it doesn't exist.
I don't want more armies to ally with until they fix the core force, the evil poster boys. Because if they didn't fix CSM first, if they did release LATD you can bet it would be guard with spikes and CC focus. Get the fluff representation right with CSM then move on to loftier goals. Personally I had a huge issue with Daemons being separated but 7th Allies and summoning somewhat fix that enough that I won't complain.

We don't need insane big new kits like the Heldrake was for 6th, just tweak the rules back to how they were when Legions and Warbands were both viable options (Real options, not do your best to pretend like we've had to since 4th) and maybe, just maybe, some new sculpts for our Troops.

I don't think GWs ever really thought highly of Chaos. They started as something that had a small handful of distinct units but was otherwise expected to use loyalist rules and units to fill out the army. That's what RT and 2nd edition have done, and when you looked at 3rd it's just an attempt to peal them away from loyalists but without giving them support. Often times their models were done as experiments or given to the most rookie sculptors which only shows how little they were cared about. Up until the Defiler the only truly distinct Chaos vehicle kit was the chaos dreadnought. Then you have their tanks which could justifiably have a different aesthetic than their Imperial counterparts but just get some poorly sculpted spikes to slap on, even SoB have large add-on panels that add new detail.

Maybe that's good enough for some and not a priority for others but it's a clear pattern of GW not caring.

I think the current codex is a good starting point but one that GW hasn't nurtured into what it should have expanded into through supplements. We have supplements to play precisely the type of armies the codex is meant to represent on its own.

The other problem with Chaos is that GW feels like it's an army that constantly needs to be penalized but without any real advantage to balance out the penalty. It's exemplified by how our dreadnoughts used to be and how our champions are now.

It's a challenge representing chaos because they can be legionaires or renegades and then different types of chaos worshippers. That's a lot more variations and combinations than any other single codex gets. Codex SM says you can be Raven Guard but that's something more fixed than say a legion that doesn't normally but can worship the chaos Gods.

I actually think GW should double down on the core codex being an Undivided chaos army, but that it should cover armies dedicated to the big four gods in supplements. In emphasizing chaos undivided I think it should actually mean expanding on all the different variations of chaos worshippers covered by that umbrella. You look at the different undivided armies and chaos means something so different to each. There are those who worship a chaos god, those who worship the chaos gods, those who worship a pantheon beyond the four, those who worship chaos in more abstract terms, and those who don't worship at all.

I think GW needs a new look at chaos that doesn't abandoned the old distinctions but just represents them differently. Rather than saying legions or renegades or which of the 4 gods or undivided... What's important should simply be the nature and degree of corruption and madness regardless of a chaos marines pre-fall labels. It would allow GW to refocus Chaos onto something more abstract yet representative in a way that can more manageably fit into a codex without so drastically unbalancing the meta, as the 3.5 codex did.

Sadly with this edition I think your options are to either not play in an overly competitive environment or play the list unbound or with allies in a way that's in good taste and backed up with fluff.

 KorPhaeron77 wrote:
But then for some crazy reason, they ripped that codex into tiny pieces and pretend like it doesn't exist.

Which is what happened to Lost and the Damned, whom HAD a codex and a legal army, but it was ripped and taken away and now they pretend it doesn't exist.

CSMs are not in that situation.

 KorPhaeron77 wrote:
I don't want more armies to ally with until they fix the core force, the evil poster boys. Because if they didn't fix CSM first, if they did release LATD you can bet it would be guard with spikes and CC focus. Get the fluff representation right with CSM then move on to loftier goals. Personally I had a huge issue with Daemons being separated but 7th Allies and summoning somewhat fix that enough that I won't complain.

Just because GW fethed up CSMs doesn't mean they'll feth up LatD. Just because they could get CSMs right doesn't mean they won't feth up LatD. The two are not related like that.

Also another thought: Which Chaos Space Marine armies are good is also going to depend on whether or not the rulebook favors shooting or assault. Right now, it definitely seems to favor shooting... so... how would Khorne and etc overcome that, without making them utterly broken if the game shifts back?

My gaming buddies and I have made a couple of house rules to correct some things we think are getting in the way of our fun.

1) Any codex can ally with any other codex as Allies of Convenience if it has a decent concept in line with the fluff.

Chaos Marines and Traitor Guard are a good example (for a LatD type army). Right now they are Come the Apocalypse. Same goes for a Genestealer Cult. GW's allies matrix is too simple and too restrictive and punishes players who are trying to 'Forge the Narrative' with burdensome penalties that hobble gameplay and make the game frustrating.

This gives the group oversight so that players can't abuse the allies rules. So a Genestealer Cult with IG platoons and Genestealers and Lictors is ok, but not if they start bringing storm troopers or a Hive Tyrant.

2) Any Psyker can take any discipline out of the BRB. Psykers cannot be required to take powers from their codex but may if they choose.

GW threw reason to the wind when everyone got Daemonology. Psychic powers are so random and difficult to cast now that it won't be anywhere near game breaking. If Ultramarines and Eldar can summon daemons then a Tzeentch Sorceror should be able to scry he future. If they want to get nuts, let's get nuts.

Melissia stop it's too painful I'll have to confess, a Lost and the Damned sells me more than CSM. I love CSM (really Tzeentch and KSons) but LatD edge them out for most appealing Chaos force. Honestly I feel it has far more than just supplement tier units. Imagine it! It is the Lost and the Damned. We are talking the most horridly twisted humans possible. Dregs of society standing up to revolt, mutants of varied types, combat drug addicted fanatics, chaos xenos forces, mercenaries, sorcerers, sacrificial forces. It's really more than just IG. It's a conglomerate of all of humanity and their outcasts. To say there isn't enough for a supplement is madness to me. I would so gladly "Forge the Narrative" with a force of LatD with a minor support of CSM finally rounded out with Daemon summonings. Oh yeah, and more Deffie like models. I love that machine of terror way too much.

Apologies for nerding out about the Lost and the Damned. Just sad that they got ripped away again. I loved them when they came out and actually built up a traitor guard force (heck, I bought forgefiends and the sorts for bits to make twisted vehicles) and the Come the Apoc was a massive punch in the gut for me.

CSM on their own are somewhat gak. The codex lacks in very many ways, but I've found it quite fluffy and fun to plug those holes with both Traitor Guard and Daemons (now both at the same time with unbound!).

Snipers to kill MCs from IG, as well as a CCC squad for some artillery. Some Vendettas for awesome firepower, some Daemons for more cost efficient close combat, while the CSM provide some tankyness and supporting fire.

I love my CSM, I really do. It's the only army I play, but I never play it without allies simply because the codex is really bad.

 StarTrotter wrote:
Oh yeah, and more Deffie like models. I love that machine of terror way too much.

Perhaps Stalk-Tanks?

 Melissia wrote:

 StarTrotter wrote:
Oh yeah, and more Deffie like models. I love that machine of terror way too much.

Perhaps Stalk-Tanks?

[img]

Spoiler:

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a28/melissiablackheart/85f1e44c1c53abfe3519c76dcce9588e.jpg[/img]

Yes I like where this is going! 11, 11, 10 that way you have the little one, the deffie, and then daddy grinder!
It's so cute just don't let it hug you. Gosh darn it, I wish I could build a codex sometimes. Just all the possibilities....

Anyways CSM, competitive, do what we always do. Either not play the game or just go nurgle. For friends, house rule and just give up on certain units. Same as always. Also, build up our hatred and fervor into a furious wrath before finally uniting with our loyal siblings (SoB and BT) to take over the meta with true faith (I guess Guardsman with priests can join )

 Melissia wrote:
Stop making gak up and claiming I said it.

It's very dishonest and is one of my biggest pet peeves.

That's hilarious considering this:

 Melissia wrote:
Don't act like I don't know what it's like to play a codex that's been ignored and hasn't been given the attention it deserves. You are a fool if you think that.

Heck it wouldn't even be making something new, stalk-tanks already exist in the lore. That was just an artist's rendition of them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 slowthar wrote:
That's hilarious considering this:

If you dispute that this is what they were acting like, say it outright and provide reasons for it. I stand by my statement, and see no reason why I shouldn't.

You know, I can see most sides of this ridiculous argument.

My last remaining armies are Tyranids, C:SM(Formerly BT, now homebrew), CSM, Daemons, SoB, and an Eldar army I am selling off.

I play most of what are considered the worst armies in the game right now and I find it ridiculous to say that SoB is a bad codex. The faction is neglected, I want them to get a serious codex and soon, but the codex they have now is fantastic as far as fluff and feel. When I play my Sisters and there is flamers and meltas pouring out of every unit in spades I feel like I am playing SISTERS. I love them.

CSM I feel fine playing them, but I play a hodge podge list without a legion in mind or even a specific god. I can understand the frustration of plays who want to play their favorite legion because this codex is terrible for that. At the same time I feel like it is reaching for the past to want the legions back, the same way that I feel that it is a sad fact that Tyranids will never again be the versatility force they were in 4th...

Speaking of Tyranids, here is what I consider a BAD codex. So many just flat out useless units, so many units that can't even do what they are designed to do, such a hostile edition to the most basic play style of the army. The best Tyranid list is above par, the best of the best from this codex can truly be a terror to a fluffy list or a casual list. A casual or fluffy list from the Tyranid codex will be rolled by a decent casual list. I love my Tyranids but it is so hard for me to even give a damn about them because they are in such a state of imbalance, unfluffy play style, and just terrible feeling. I feel like I am playing a very generic faction because most of the Tyranid units boil down to a base stat line without many special abilities or fluff upgrades.

Another thing I don't like that they did was that they added extra daemon engines, but the wrong kind. There were already daemon engines in the fluff from the old Epic Space Marine, they didn't need to make up crap like the Defiler, Heldrake (although at least that could be considered the Doom Wing) and the Dino-fiends. Daemon Engines should have been things roughly like how the Knights are now - quasi-superheavies that you field one of as a centerpiece, if they were dead set on including them in 40k at all. Basically how Forge World presents them.

If i could have something for CSM, i would do the same thing for SM and that would be, Tome like codex's

Stuff all the Space Marines into one, and CSM into another.

while they are at it, each marine army would be their own army, with CT and all that goodness.

CSM would then get the SM type treatment, and we would see a section for thousand sons, black legion, etc etc each with their own inner section.

if i wanted a layout... mmmmm those HH books from FW get it pretty damn spot on.
overall army units, then each Legion/Chapter specific units, with the bonus' etc.

Because of each chapter of marines and there is how many in one codex, then surely they can do something similar for chaos, and to say that the legions only fight as warbands, ISNT that what we put on the table, or did i miss someone fielding a FULL CHAPTER/LEGION at some point in a game under 50,000 points.... so "warbands" are just as valid as chapters where the game is concerned.

other things that could make a nice difference for CSM would be make the marks mean something. for example the TZ mark, gives +1 to inv. now who would pay more if it made bolter weapons AP3 and SB (yes i know SB is lame BUT its a bonus). Or say nurgle, instead of +1T, you pay more so that it has the FNP (maybe a 6+ rather than the 5 depending on cost) and stealth.. that way when you Mark things your really making them part of the cult that would go with the god. (admitidly nurgles would be the hardest to work without it being OP but im sure something could be done)

these are just someways i would start fixing things up

WayneTheGame wrote:
Another thing I don't like that they did was that they added extra daemon engines, but the wrong kind. There were already daemon engines in the fluff from the old Epic Space Marine, they didn't need to make up crap like the Defiler, Heldrake (although at least that could be considered the Doom Wing) and the Dino-fiends. Daemon Engines should have been things roughly like how the Knights are now - quasi-superheavies that you field one of as a centerpiece, if they were dead set on including them in 40k at all. Basically how Forge World presents them.

You mean just like the Khorne Dozer? Based on the old epic super heavies...but you see how that turned out. Overpriced (in points) and ridiculed by the very fans it was made for.

So gotta ask, what's everybodie's opinion of Daemon engines like the Deffie? There's complaints at the dinobots but what of them?

I like the Deffie, but its rules are pretty bad at present, being too expensive for what it does and trying to fill wildly different roles at the same time.

 Melissia wrote:
Now, if 40k didn't have IG or Orks, it wouldn't be 40k any more

But jokes aside, I'm still curious as to how slapping on a bunch of old special weapons makes CSMs "unique" as opposed to using Chaos-focused stuff like marks, mutations, or minor psychic powers or... anything, really.

No. 40K without Space Marines would be a bankrupt GW. 40K without IG would just be GW raking slightly lower profits. Space Marines are the poster boys for a reason- they sell.

 aka_mythos wrote:
I don't think GWs ever really thought highly of Chaos. They started as something that had a small handful of distinct units but was otherwise expected to use loyalist rules and units to fill out the army. That's what RT and 2nd edition have done, and when you looked at 3rd it's just an attempt to peal them away from loyalists but without giving them support. Often times their models were done as experiments or given to the most rookie sculptors which only shows how little they were cared about. Up until the Defiler the only truly distinct Chaos vehicle kit was the chaos dreadnought. Then you have their tanks which could justifiably have a different aesthetic than their Imperial counterparts but just get some poorly sculpted spikes to slap on, even SoB have large add-on panels that add new detail.

Maybe that's good enough for some and not a priority for others but it's a clear pattern of GW not caring.

I think the current codex is a good starting point but one that GW hasn't nurtured into what it should have expanded into through supplements. We have supplements to play precisely the type of armies the codex is meant to represent on its own.

The other problem with Chaos is that GW feels like it's an army that constantly needs to be penalized but without any real advantage to balance out the penalty. It's exemplified by how our dreadnoughts used to be and how our champions are now.

It's a challenge representing chaos because they can be legionaires or renegades and then different types of chaos worshippers. That's a lot more variations and combinations than any other single codex gets. Codex SM says you can be Raven Guard but that's something more fixed than say a legion that doesn't normally but can worship the chaos Gods.

I actually think GW should double down on the core codex being an Undivided chaos army, but that it should cover armies dedicated to the big four gods in supplements. In emphasizing chaos undivided I think it should actually mean expanding on all the different variations of chaos worshippers covered by that umbrella. You look at the different undivided armies and chaos means something so different to each. There are those who worship a chaos god, those who worship the chaos gods, those who worship a pantheon beyond the four, those who worship chaos in more abstract terms, and those who don't worship at all.

I think GW needs a new look at chaos that doesn't abandoned the old distinctions but just represents them differently. Rather than saying legions or renegades or which of the 4 gods or undivided... What's important should simply be the nature and degree of corruption and madness regardless of a chaos marines pre-fall labels. It would allow GW to refocus Chaos onto something more abstract yet representative in a way that can more manageably fit into a codex without so drastically unbalancing the meta, as the 3.5 codex did.

Sadly with this edition I think your options are to either not play in an overly competitive environment or play the list unbound or with allies in a way that's in good taste and backed up with fluff.

What is Codex: Chaos?

 Wilytank wrote:

 aka_mythos wrote:
I don't think GWs ever really thought highly of Chaos. They started as something that had a small handful of distinct units but was otherwise expected to use loyalist rules and units to fill out the army. That's what RT and 2nd edition have done, and when you looked at 3rd it's just an attempt to peal them away from loyalists but without giving them support. Often times their models were done as experiments or given to the most rookie sculptors which only shows how little they were cared about. Up until the Defiler the only truly distinct Chaos vehicle kit was the chaos dreadnought. Then you have their tanks which could justifiably have a different aesthetic than their Imperial counterparts but just get some poorly sculpted spikes to slap on, even SoB have large add-on panels that add new detail.

Maybe that's good enough for some and not a priority for others but it's a clear pattern of GW not caring.

I think the current codex is a good starting point but one that GW hasn't nurtured into what it should have expanded into through supplements. We have supplements to play precisely the type of armies the codex is meant to represent on its own.

The other problem with Chaos is that GW feels like it's an army that constantly needs to be penalized but without any real advantage to balance out the penalty. It's exemplified by how our dreadnoughts used to be and how our champions are now.

It's a challenge representing chaos because they can be legionaires or renegades and then different types of chaos worshippers. That's a lot more variations and combinations than any other single codex gets. Codex SM says you can be Raven Guard but that's something more fixed than say a legion that doesn't normally but can worship the chaos Gods.

I actually think GW should double down on the core codex being an Undivided chaos army, but that it should cover armies dedicated to the big four gods in supplements. In emphasizing chaos undivided I think it should actually mean expanding on all the different variations of chaos worshippers covered by that umbrella. You look at the different undivided armies and chaos means something so different to each. There are those who worship a chaos god, those who worship the chaos gods, those who worship a pantheon beyond the four, those who worship chaos in more abstract terms, and those who don't worship at all.

I think GW needs a new look at chaos that doesn't abandoned the old distinctions but just represents them differently. Rather than saying legions or renegades or which of the 4 gods or undivided... What's important should simply be the nature and degree of corruption and madness regardless of a chaos marines pre-fall labels. It would allow GW to refocus Chaos onto something more abstract yet representative in a way that can more manageably fit into a codex without so drastically unbalancing the meta, as the 3.5 codex did.

Sadly with this edition I think your options are to either not play in an overly competitive environment or play the list unbound or with allies in a way that's in good taste and backed up with fluff.

What is Codex: Chaos?

A miserable little pile of secrets.

Oh, cmon guys. It's not that bad. Just get your opponents agreement to the personal changes you've made to the army and play it like you want to, right? Forge the Narrative.

In the meantime, I'll go sit in the corner with my "barely a codex" codex, that still doesn't have 7E FAQ updates, and basically 5 usable units...