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Melissia wrote:Citation please.

With pleasure. Here:

Melissia wrote: Stop making gak up and claiming I said it.

It's very dishonest and is one of my biggest pet peeves.

Good is a relative term. CSM have it good... In comparison to SoB. They are on par with Nids, maybe having it somewhat better, but when you look at SM who at least have CT (Even if they are not perfect) then complaining on the complaining becomes asinine rather fast. I made no gak up.

No I didn't. I merely offered historical perspective, because it appeared to me that people were acting like this was somehow a new problem that CSMs were facing.

So you just misunderstood, that's alright, no reason to get your jimmies rustled.

WayneTheGame wrote:
That's a LatD army though, not CSM. And while that should exist, it should be its own army not replace Chaos Space Marines. If you skipped over it go back and read my quotes from the 2nd edition and 3.5 Codex - there's always been technically three types of Chaos: Lost and the Damned (Cultists, mutants, some daemons), Daemons, and the Traitor Legions. These things used to have a bit of separation. The 6e codex threw them all back together, poorly. Not that it'd ever happen but I'd rather have three Chaos codexes than four Space Marine codexes and umpteen supplements that aren't needed.

I actually agree here. It'd be better this way.

Though I should note that there are seven Space Marine codices plus umpteen supplements, rather than just four.

There would be far more variety in having LatD, Daemons, and CSMs, than having a bunch of SM codices, to be sure.

 Ashiraya wrote:

Melissia wrote:Citation please.

With pleasure.

I'm waiting. You haven't cited anything suggesting I made gak up. Is your suggestion that I am making gak up a lie, then?

 Melissia wrote:
I'm waiting. You haven't cited anything suggesting I made gak up. Is your suggestion that I am making gak up a lie, then?

The way you misunderstand the post and instantly leap to a lie accusation makes this debate feel a bit too heated.

I mean, I understand CSM is not an army you would personally enjoy playing, but this crusade is getting a bit ridiculous now.

 Melissia wrote:

 SarisKhan wrote:
You are an extremely biased and malicious person

At least I'm not claiming people who have different opinions of me are cruel and mean trolls (IE, "malicious", full of malice and intent to harm). I've done nothing but express my opinion about plastic soldiers in a forum whereupon we talk about the plastic soldiers we love so much..

 SarisKhan wrote:
I've seen you stalking all threads related to issues with the CSM, repeatedly calling their players "whiners" and the faction itself "minor", "insignificant" and the like. You are constantly behaving in an impolite, spiteful and obstinate manner that is in no way, shape or form constructive to the discussion at hand. I think you should be reported to the mods for your exceedingly rude and irritating behaviour.

Just leave us alone, for the love of Gods.

Here's my reasoning. You've failed to include that in what you quoted.

 Melissia wrote:

 SarisKhan wrote:
Just leave us alone, for the love of Gods.

No.

You've been repeatedly derailing threads like this one and refuse to let us discuss the topic at peace. I'm going to report you.

I do not feel any fear of repercussion for being reported for stating my opinion, and then defending it.

 Ashiraya wrote:
The way you misunderstand the post and instantly leap to a lie accusation makes this debate feel a bit too heated.

I have been very honest and forthright as to why I am annoyed at you; I'm not hiding anything. But if I have not been clear enough, we should probably take it to PMs.

Can we get back on track. I would genuinely love to hear other Chaos players views on what would make our codex good again and if they disagree with any of my points, what would they change. If you don't play Chaos and never did back in the day then that's fine but can we leave out the accusations of whining and the listing of armies that have a worse book than us. LATD should get their own thread if we are going to discuss what that should include. There are some really good points in this thread, let's not dilute it with personal bickering hey.

Ceann Fine wrote:
Look there is always going to be some codices better then others in gw, it's always been that way so people need to relax on that matter for starters. What interest would gw ever have in balance? They just want to sell cool models and they do that quite well. So CSM aren't going to be able to write auto lists win like trip riptides or cronair before that but that doesn't mean they can't be competitive, they are just more challenging to play then some others. The only reason to bitch about CSM is in relation to the lack of a cohesive theme depending on factions and the poor fluff

This post makes zero sense.

What about people who play Chaos but don't play CSMs?

Chaos and CSM are not the same thing, but people seem to treat them like they are.

Think about it this way, anyway: If we had LatD, CSM, and Daemons as independent codices, they'd all be battle brothers, and each one being independent would allow there to be more CSM stuff in the CSM codex anyway. And they could ally with no problems at all, without using Unbound.

I'd love to play a LatD army again.

 Melissia wrote:
I do not feel any fear of repercussion for being reported for stating my opinion, and then defending it.

The thing is that you do not simply state opinions, that would be perfectly tolerable. Instead, you insist on calling CSM players "whiners" for voicing displeasure about valid, existing issues, denigrate the faction in a way that appears extremely spiteful, and keep "stating" your oppressively opposing opinions all the bloody time, preventing us from actually discussing the topic at hand.

Why do you keep posting in such threads? You do not contribute anything constructive, you just keep antagonising CSM players. Why?

 SarisKhan wrote:
for voicing displeasure about valid, existing issues, denigrate the faction in a way that appears extremely spiteful

I also say the same thing about Eldar, Sisters, Tau, and loyalist Space Marines. But apparently I guess I hate almost every faction that isn't Imperial Guard Or Orks now, just because I view them as a small part of a gigantic universe.

If you really want to talk about the topic at hand, you're welcome to join us. You know, instead of talking about me.

 Melissia wrote:

 SarisKhan wrote:
for voicing displeasure about valid, existing issues, denigrate the faction in a way that appears extremely spiteful

I also say the same thing about Eldar, Sisters, Tau, and loyalist Space Marines. But apparently I guess I hate almost every faction that isn't Imperial Guard Or Orks now, just because I view them as a small part of a gigantic universe.

If you really want to talk about the topic at hand, you're welcome to join us.

We're talking about CSM here. We discuss CSM. You come, call us "whiners" and denigrate the faction.

Also, good job dodging my questions. Yeah, feel free to poison other threads with your "opinions", I'm sure no one will mind. Because why would they? How could they? You're so objective and gentle about that.

 KorPhaeron77 wrote:
Can we get back on track. I would genuinely love to hear other Chaos players views on what would make our codex good again and if they disagree with any of my points, what would they change. If you don't play Chaos and never did back in the day then that's fine but can we leave out the accusations of whining and the listing of armies that have a worse book than us. LATD should get their own thread if we are going to discuss what that should include. There are some really good points in this thread, let's not dilute it with personal bickering hey.

I've got one that would give the army an entirely different feel to nomal marines, (I already do this with my havocs), and bring a bit of power back to the dex. Allow CSM units (as in the basic troop unit) to have upto 4 special weapons if at least 10 strong. Its nothing major yet allows each basic troop unit to be reasonably powerful and differentiates it from a basic C:SM unit. Having the current ability to take 2 spec wepons instead of atsknf, grav, pods etc etc, just doesn't cut it. You'd still be paying the points for it, a 10 man unit with no marks and 4 plasma guns would come to 190pts and still be wiped out as easily by nearby grav cents or focused serpent fire.

Wouldn't that basically just be ripping off IG and Sisters, though?

I would think you'd want more mutations and marks and etc, rather than just "throw more plasmaguns in the squad".

I'd say it'd be ripping off possessed, plague bearers and havocs more. Those are the units I have to take to be able to do it. Melta is also a nice one for it too.
And marks and mutations wont please iron warriors or nightlords players as fixes. Could work for other legions but I just don't see it being that effective game wise.

CSM rumours mentioned veteran skills etc.

I'd love to see that become reality.

The idea that Chaos Space Marines aren't important to the overall story is something I find hilariously inaccurate.

And just because this needs remembering...


And probably why I never could bring myself to use oblits. Ever.

Pah! All 6 of my oblits are the old school models!

Oh god the 3.0 Obliterators.

I'm sorry, but I stopped reading at "CSM's aren't that important to 40k." Excuse me, but who is called "The Great Enemy?"

Thank you. Enough said.

 TheRedWingArmada wrote:
I'm sorry, but I stopped reading at "CSM's aren't that important to 40k." Excuse me, but who is called "The Great Enemy?"

Thank you. Enough said.

That'd be the Chaos Gods. Not the Chaos Space Marines. What Melissia is getting at (and you're all proving it with every angry post) is that Chaos is much more than just CSM, just as the Imperium is more than just Space Marines.

 TheRedWingArmada wrote:
I'm sorry, but I stopped reading at "CSM's aren't that important to 40k." Excuse me, but who is called "The Great Enemy?"

Thank you. Enough said.

I think the distinction being made was Chaos vs. Chaos Marines.

Of which the power armoured variant of Chaos forces does make a surprisingly little percentage of the total forces of Chaos. Much like how Space Marines are a fraction of the total power of the Imperial forces.

*Edit* Ninjas.

 Melissia wrote:
What about people who play Chaos but don't play CSMs?

What about them?

As to ideas to make the codex good again (This is not meant specific to you Melissia) I would be content with proper costs of the units points-wise and some slight changes to the Champion of Chaos rule and the Veterans of the Long War rule. Of course I would have a lot of ideas for Chaos Space Marines to be shown like the true veterans and elite warriors that they are with Chaos Lords being close combat monsters which aren't underdogs compared to Chapter Masters and Legion rules with lots of flavour but I guess I understand that if factions are viewed at as products then GW has to make Space Marines a better product... Maybe this is the way to optimize profits.

As to why some are going loco about this, is that we had a good product which got worse and then another product picked up a splinter of the goodness and now Chaos Space Marines players are standing like an Italian football player who doesn't understand a certain verdict - "It's right there the solution!!! You already did it... It took a tiny space in a big book... What not do it again!?!?!" I myself can be pictured sitting on top a CEO or game designer in their chair in GW bitch slapping them with a fistful of money screaming "WHY!?!?! You don't like money!?!? See all this - it's yours... It's so easy... You've done it twice now... Tell me the secret as to why it's not a financial good idea!!!" Seriously - the day I'm told why GW withhold these rules, will be a bigger climax than when I saw the Da Vinci Code.

 Blacksails wrote:

 TheRedWingArmada wrote:
I'm sorry, but I stopped reading at "CSM's aren't that important to 40k." Excuse me, but who is called "The Great Enemy?"

Thank you. Enough said.

I think the distinction being made was Chaos vs. Chaos Marines.

Of which the power armoured variant of Chaos forces does make a surprisingly little percentage of the total forces of Chaos. Much like how Space Marines are a fraction of the total power of the Imperial forces.

*Edit* Ninjas.

CSM tend to be in the most important battles, though, as well as leading lesser Chaos servants. No wonder they get attention.

LATD definitely could use their own codex however.

Poly Ranger wrote:

 KorPhaeron77 wrote:
Can we get back on track. I would genuinely love to hear other Chaos players views on what would make our codex good again and if they disagree with any of my points, what would they change. If you don't play Chaos and never did back in the day then that's fine but can we leave out the accusations of whining and the listing of armies that have a worse book than us. LATD should get their own thread if we are going to discuss what that should include. There are some really good points in this thread, let's not dilute it with personal bickering hey.

I've got one that would give the army an entirely different feel to nomal marines, (I already do this with my havocs), and bring a bit of power back to the dex. Allow CSM units (as in the basic troop unit) to have upto 4 special weapons if at least 10 strong. Its nothing major yet allows each basic troop unit to be reasonably powerful and differentiates it from a basic C:SM unit. Having the current ability to take 2 spec wepons instead of atsknf, grav, pods etc etc, just doesn't cut it. You'd still be paying the points for it, a 10 man unit with no marks and 4 plasma guns would come to 190pts and still be wiped out as easily by nearby grav cents or focused serpent fire.

Chaos Chosen already do this, and you only need a 6 man squad to max out your weapons effectiveness without buying extra bolters and ccw's. That said, while 6 is the golden number, I still think 10 for Transport purposes, minus 1 for every IC that joins the squad. Since Unbound came out, I can play my CSM's the way I think they should be played to make Challenges work. Each CC-Squad takes an extra Chaos Lord, that way you can switch between him and the sargeant when it comes to who is going to suicide and who is going to eat the squads lunch.

And for those wondering, "Why 6?" 1 is the Champ getting Melee and Ranged weapons. 4 of them are straight options and the last one is a "heavy weapons" option, which pretty much means Melta. So 6 man Chosen Squad with 5 melta's and a combi-melta.

 Ashiraya wrote:

CSM tend to be in the most important battles, though, as well as leading lesser Chaos servants. No wonder they get attention.

We're also only told about battles that include marines, both spikey or otherwise.

The fluff we have is filled with tales of power armoured dudes either saving the day or ruining it. In comparison, time devoted to the stories of ordinary humans (spikey and non spikey versions) is significantly less.

So I don't think its a matter of them being in more important battles, but that we're only being shown battles that have marines.

Omg, what's this thread called again? CSM - What do we do now? And yes, I'm well aware there are umpteen facets to Chaos, but when it comes to Real Space, the CSM's are the go-to, up there with psykers, because, as we should all know by now, Chaos has a problem with existing in real space without something to feed it Chaos energy. That's why the whole "Gray Knights" thing is so important. Because they stop Chaos from being fed on the battlefield to be sustained...supposedly.

Aside from that, let's do a roll call on how many books in Games Workshops Warhammer 40k actually represent Chaos and how many represent the Imperium.

Chaos has 4. Chaos Daemons, Chaos Space Marines, Black Legion and Crimson Slaughter.

Imperium has... what 8? IG/AM, Tempestus, SoB, Space Marines, BA, DA, BT. That is seven right there and I'm sure I'm forgetting something.

So CSM's make up about 3/4ths of the Chaos domain in game, while in story, they are the shunt for Daemons to enter realspace. Meanwhile in the Imperium....well, I think I've clarified enough now.

CSM's are kind of a big deal what with a whole Heresy and then Black Crusades and the All-Powerful Chaos Gods seducing them to their cause. Yeah. They are important.

What would 40k be without Space Marines, while we're on the subject? It would be Orkz v. Eldar.

 TheRedWingArmada wrote:
I'm sorry, but I stopped reading at "CSM's aren't that important to 40k." Excuse me, but who is called "The Great Enemy?"

Thank you. Enough said.

Chaos, not Chaos Space Marines, is "The Great Enemy".

Chaospling wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
What about people who play Chaos but don't play CSMs?

What about them?

Because not everyone who plays Chaos wants to play Chaos Space Marines. And yet people keep acting like that's the only choice we should have.

Besides, as I explained before, by adding more Chaos factions, we also increase the ability of CSM players to bring in more allies, so it DOES effect CSM players positively anyway.

It would help Alpha Legion, for example, to be able to include LatD allies. And there's the Blood Pact and other such fluffy armies that would be great additions to other Chaos Marine forces, if you really have to focus on them. Excellent Battle Brothers fodder.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheRedWingArmada wrote:
Imperium has... what 8? IG/AM, Tempestus, SoB, Space Marines, BA, DA, BT. That is seven right there and I'm sure I'm forgetting something.

You're forgetting two, actually. GK, and Inquisition.

 TheRedWingArmada wrote:

What would 40k be without Space Marines, while we're on the subject? It would be Orkz v. Eldar.

Errr, no? Without marines, you would still have the forces of chaos vs. the Imperium, not to mention the Imperium still vs. everything else.

Marines are a very small fraction of the galactic war; they're just the focus of most of the codices/rules/models for obvious monetary reasons.

 Melissia wrote:

 TheRedWingArmada wrote:
Imperium has... what 8? IG/AM, Tempestus, SoB, Space Marines, BA, DA, BT. That is seven right there and I'm sure I'm forgetting something.

You're forgetting two, actually. GK, and Inquisition.

And SW. Since you are counting MT you may as well count IK too. That makes it eleven.

Yeah, a LATD codex is certainly in order...

Since you count BL and CS then you should count Clan Raukaan and Sentinels of Terra too.

 TheRedWingArmada wrote:
What would 40k be without Space Marines, while we're on the subject? It ould be Orkz v. Eldar.

Also IG vs Orks. Also Chaos vs Imperium. Also Tau vs Orks. Also Tyranids vs Everyone. Necrons vs Whoever the Feth They Want to Fight. Shall I go on?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 TheRedWingArmada wrote:
Imperium has... what 8? IG/AM, Tempestus, SoB, Space Marines, BA, DA, BT. That is seven right there and I'm sure I'm forgetting something.

You're forgetting two, actually. GK, and Inquisition.

And SW. Since you are counting MT you may as well count IK too. That makes it eleven.

Yeah, a LATD codex is certainly in order...

Oh right, forgot about the Imperial Knights. Yeah, definitely need more Xenos and Chaos codices, while the Imperium just needs to focus on updating older codices instead of adding new ones.