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no one who actually wargames finds 40k to be more fun, or fun at all, then warmahordes...
also how did you spend 100's of dollars on WMHs? everyone knows its like, 50$ at most for a complete army of random units that will compete with even the most cheesiest of cheese WMH lists.
Try harder.
Games Workshop Delenda Est.
Users on ignore- 53.
If you break apart my or anyone else's posts line by line I will not read them.
HiveFleetPlastic wrote: Well, as an example of the rules not handling creative terrain very well, distance between models is measured from base to base in 3D. Vertical distance is only ignored when the vertical distance between the two models is less than an inch. This means that, for example, your colossal cannot hit an enemy if that enemy is on a ledge 2.1" high, even though the colossal's volume is defined as a 5" tall cylinder. Your poor non-reach heavies can't even hit someone standing on a 1"-high ledge.
That board would also get frustrating very fast if you were playing against e.g. Retribution and they could just fire directly through all the houses.
You can work around these problems by house ruling, but that sort of underscores that the default rules don't handle them all that well, I think.
Wait, what? You can fire through LOS blocking terrain?
HiveFleetPlastic wrote: Well, as an example of the rules not handling creative terrain very well, distance between models is measured from base to base in 3D. Vertical distance is only ignored when the vertical distance between the two models is less than an inch. This means that, for example, your colossal cannot hit an enemy if that enemy is on a ledge 2.1" high, even though the colossal's volume is defined as a 5" tall cylinder. Your poor non-reach heavies can't even hit someone standing on a 1"-high ledge.
That board would also get frustrating very fast if you were playing against e.g. Retribution and they could just fire directly through all the houses.
You can work around these problems by house ruling, but that sort of underscores that the default rules don't handle them all that well, I think.
Wait, what? You can fire through LOS blocking terrain?
There's an ability that allows you to ignore LoS for shooting.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/08 18:52:39
You know you're really doing something when you can make strangers hate you over the Internet. - Mauleed
Just remember folks. Panic. Panic all the time. It's the only way to survive, other than just being mindful, of course-but geez, that's so friggin' boring. - Aegis Grimm
Hallowed is the All Pie The Before Times: A Place That Celebrates The World That Was
Exceedingly rare. Even in Retribution, only one unit has it, IIRC.
You know you're really doing something when you can make strangers hate you over the Internet. - Mauleed
Just remember folks. Panic. Panic all the time. It's the only way to survive, other than just being mindful, of course-but geez, that's so friggin' boring. - Aegis Grimm
Hallowed is the All Pie The Before Times: A Place That Celebrates The World That Was
Aren't there several units in 40k with a similar rule? Hive Guard, Purgation squads... others?
Though they did have the issue of the rules not allowing them to actually wound anything IIRC. 7th might have fixed that though.
BlaxicanX wrote: A young business man named Tom Kirby, who was a pupil of mine until he turned greedy, helped the capitalists hunt down and destroy the wargamers. He betrayed and murdered Games Workshop.
It's pretty rare to be able to fire through a house in Warmachine. Being able to fire through forests or clouds - which normally block LoS - is much more common, as are abilities that allow models to ignore the concealment and cover bonuses that terrain grants, which can be a really big deal.
The other common issue is that rough terrain halves your movement speed as long as any part of your base is in it, and that makes it very hard to actually go anywhere relevant. Different armies have different levels of ability for dealing with this - some lists can completely ignore the rough terrain penalty where others may have limited or no ways of dealing with it. Some armies can also walk through houses. Models without Reach weapons (generally long weapons like pikes) also can't attack over walls, and models without a rule to ignore them can't charge over walls.
Basically there is a lot of variability in how well armies deal with terrain of varying types and that's a primary source of friction in how tables are set up. Warmachine players tend to hate water. Circle players love forests. Legion players often love forests, too, because they slow other people down while they just ignore them. And so on.
People will usually put stuff in their lists to help mitigate terrain issues, but they only go so far and it often causes very conservative terrain placement with an effort to have enough terrain for fairness without having too much terrain for fairness.
Eldarain wrote: Aren't there several units in 40k with a similar rule? Hive Guard, Purgation squads... others?
Though they did have the issue of the rules not allowing them to actually wound anything IIRC. 7th might have fixed that though.
There's indirect fire. Things like mortars, artillery, orbital bombardments etc. but they receive penalties to their accuracy.
Both units(Hive Guard, Purgation Squads) he mentioned do/did completely ignore LoS without being indirect fire weapons. So, yes, it does exist in 40K as well.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/08 19:24:05
You know you're really doing something when you can make strangers hate you over the Internet. - Mauleed
Just remember folks. Panic. Panic all the time. It's the only way to survive, other than just being mindful, of course-but geez, that's so friggin' boring. - Aegis Grimm
Hallowed is the All Pie The Before Times: A Place That Celebrates The World That Was
Eldarain wrote: Aren't there several units in 40k with a similar rule? Hive Guard, Purgation squads... others?
Though they did have the issue of the rules not allowing them to actually wound anything IIRC. 7th might have fixed that though.
There's indirect fire. Things like mortars, artillery, orbital bombardments etc. but they receive penalties to their accuracy.
Both units(Hive Guard, Purgation Squads) he mentioned do/did completely ignore LoS without being indirect fire weapons.
Didn't know that. What are their weapon profiles, if you know off hand?
Not sure on the new/current version(if any difference), but the previous Hive Guard version was 24" S8 AP4 Assault 2.
For Purgation Squads, it's a psychic power that lets them do it with whatever they're aren't with.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/08/08 19:27:34
You know you're really doing something when you can make strangers hate you over the Internet. - Mauleed
Just remember folks. Panic. Panic all the time. It's the only way to survive, other than just being mindful, of course-but geez, that's so friggin' boring. - Aegis Grimm
Hallowed is the All Pie The Before Times: A Place That Celebrates The World That Was
MWHistorian wrote: I've seen some impressive Warmachine terrain. Here's Larry Correia, author of "Into the Storm" and "Monster Hunter International" playing Warmachine with Jordan Sanderson. (Author of Mistborn) That's one heck of a board.
Jordan Sanderson is the name of the demigod that was created when the Mistborn dude sucked the soul out of the ailing author of the Wheel of Time books.
I like the bit about WARgame vs warGAME. WM/H is all about the gameplay. I see a lot of bare metal at Gen Con, whereas nearly every 40k player I know has their stuff at least primed and painted a color. I think it's all because of the simulated war experience, instead of a game of tactics and placement.
MWHistorian wrote: I've seen some impressive Warmachine terrain. Here's Larry Correia, author of "Into the Storm" and "Monster Hunter International" playing Warmachine with Jordan Sanderson. (Author of Mistborn) That's one heck of a board.
Spoiler:
Jordan Sanderson is the name of the demigod that was created when the Mistborn dude sucked the soul out of the ailing author of the Wheel of Time books.
I like the bit about WARgame vs warGAME. WM/H is all about the gameplay. I see a lot of bare metal at Gen Con, whereas nearly every 40k player I know has their stuff at least primed and painted a color. I think it's all because of the simulated war experience, instead of a game of tactics and placement.
Or there are so many new players that have switched over.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/08 20:00:16
Also, check out my history blog: Minimum Wage Historian, a fun place to check out history that often falls between the couch cushions.
Or there are so many new players that have switched over.
At least locally many of the people who have started the game are MTG players (I can see how the rules would appeal there) So the painting modeling are all really new concepts.
BlaxicanX wrote: A young business man named Tom Kirby, who was a pupil of mine until he turned greedy, helped the capitalists hunt down and destroy the wargamers. He betrayed and murdered Games Workshop.
no one who actually wargames finds 40k to be more fun, or fun at all, then warmahordes...
also how did you spend 100's of dollars on WMHs? everyone knows its like, 50$ at most for a complete army of random units that will compete with even the most cheesiest of cheese WMH lists.
No one has ever said any of these things. Stop being a big baby over the fact that people disagree with you.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/09 11:09:10
frozenwastes wrote: In 40k terrain is important in that if you don't have enough line of sight blocking terrain, whoever can shooter better will just win if they happen to go first. So it's very important in 40k, not as some great tactical consideration, but in making the game function at all.
Uhm, this is true of ANY shooting heavy wargame with long range weapons. Ever played FoW on a flat board?
Yes, but it is a way that 40k (and FoW, and Bolt Action and a bunch of other games) are different than Warmachine/Hordes.
Balance in pick up games? Two people, each with their own goals for the game, design half a board game on their own without knowing the layout of the board and hope it all works out. Good luck with that. The faster you can find like minded individuals who want the same things from the game as you, the better.
frozenwastes wrote: In 40k terrain is important in that if you don't have enough line of sight blocking terrain, whoever can shooter better will just win if they happen to go first. So it's very important in 40k, not as some great tactical consideration, but in making the game function at all.
Uhm, this is true of ANY shooting heavy wargame with long range weapons. Ever played FoW on a flat board?
Yes, but it is a way that 40k (and FoW, and Bolt Action and a bunch of other games) are different than Warmachine/Hordes.
Exactly, which defines the importance of terrain based tactics. That's what my original post was about.
I like the bit about WARgame vs warGAME. WM/H is all about the gameplay. I see a lot of bare metal at Gen Con, whereas nearly every 40k player I know has their stuff at least primed and painted a color. I think it's all because of the simulated war experience, instead of a game of tactics and placement.
Due to the GW involvement in tournaments years ago, every army had to be three colors minimum to play at an event. This tradition has just continued on. Warmachine doesn't have the same requirement (PP realizes that a model sold, painted or not, is still a model sold). I'd much rather now paint my Warmachine armies knowing my biggest spam horde ever is pushing maybe 60 models with Cryx? If I wanted to run beast heavy legion, I'd be well under 30? And this is all for 50pts. The only way I could compete in 40k would be to run bikers (still $$$), Draigowing, or Centurionstar armies.
I like the bit about WARgame vs warGAME. WM/H is all about the gameplay. I see a lot of bare metal at Gen Con, whereas nearly every 40k player I know has their stuff at least primed and painted a color. I think it's all because of the simulated war experience, instead of a game of tactics and placement.
Due to the GW involvement in tournaments years ago, every army had to be three colors minimum to play at an event. This tradition has just continued on. Warmachine doesn't have the same requirement (PP realizes that a model sold, painted or not, is still a model sold). I'd much rather now paint my Warmachine armies knowing my biggest spam horde ever is pushing maybe 60 models with Cryx? If I wanted to run beast heavy legion, I'd be well under 30? And this is all for 50pts. The only way I could compete in 40k would be to run bikers (still $$$), Draigowing, or Centurionstar armies.
In a bit of fairness we do need to point out the Iron Gauntlet does require painted armies (and this is the one that PP is pushing for Live Streaming and all that), but Masters does not.
At least at the chrono-anomaly that is my LGS, people play everything painted. I think they do tournaments, but when I ask them about painting, nearly everyone will say that it's half the hobby for them.
Also for painting in warmachine the leagues all have have a hobby portion where you get pts towards for who wins the leagues from painting full models/units of things.
My limited experience at tournaments is most/all of the of armies tend to be painted, rather well too. Also hardcore formats require full painting much like Iron Gauntlet.
Not sure on the new/current version(if any difference), but the previous Hive Guard version was 24" S8 AP4 Assault 2.
For Purgation Squads, it's a psychic power that lets them do it with whatever they're aren't with.
You also have Tau with Smart Missile Systems (TL-S5AP5 Heavy 4) ignoring line of sight AND cover.
Not to mention barrage weapons, which in 40k are significantly better at sniping enemy commanders than actual sniper rifles are due to wound allocation rules.
I think the big thing about terrain in 40k is the newfound prevalence of 'Ignores Cover' weapons. 40k's cover system with TLOS means that having a foot obscured by a rock gives you the same cover save as if only your foot was visible, and seeing even a tiny portion of the enemy is nearly always a possibility. Then add in buckets of 'ignores cover' weapons (whether innately, barrage, or buffed with psychic powers), and a large amount of terrain may as well not exist in the first place.
no one who actually wargames finds 40k to be more fun, or fun at all, then warmahordes...
also how did you spend 100's of dollars on WMHs? everyone knows its like, 50$ at most for a complete army of random units that will compete with even the most cheesiest of cheese WMH lists.
no one who actually wargames finds 40k to be more fun, or fun at all, then warmahordes...
also how did you spend 100's of dollars on WMHs? everyone knows its like, 50$ at most for a complete army of random units that will compete with even the most cheesiest of cheese WMH lists.
No one has ever said any of these things. Stop being a big baby over the fact that people disagree with you.
Ya right. $50 for a real good warmachine list haha!!!! I have a unit of Iron fang pikemen at $90 a box.... A battlebox is $50 just to get you started, a decent 50 point list would run you in the 300-400 range CAD.
And yes I actually happen to be loving 40k in 7th edition, its a fantastic game! I played warmachine a few times now again since this post and for some reason still feel the same...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/15 04:15:06
People really love throwing around that iron Fang pikemen thing don't they?
From where I am sitting (Australia) $85 for 10, metal models on 30mm bases sounds pretty good.
GW are selling only 5 plastic terminators on 40mm bases (admittedly a little bigger, I haven't seen the models side by side though) for $74.
Down here that means iron fangs are metal, maybe a tad smaller but only $8.5 a model.
PLASTIC terminators are almost $15 a model.
One of those is a ridiculous price, and its not the iron fangs.
Fafnir wrote: Oh, I certainly vote with my dollar, but the problem is that that is not enough. The problem with the 'vote with your dollar' response is that it doesn't take into account why we're not buying the product. I want to enjoy 40k enough to buy back in. It was my introduction to traditional games, and there was a time when I enjoyed it very much. I want to buy 40k, but Gamesworkshop is doing their very best to push me away, and simply not buying their product won't tell them that.
And actually those $50 battle boxes are great for small games. Especially when learning how to play. Only add one or two more units and you got a great time. I was playing Warmachine with $100 investment.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/15 05:17:21
Also, check out my history blog: Minimum Wage Historian, a fun place to check out history that often falls between the couch cushions.
jonolikespie wrote: People really love throwing around that iron Fang pikemen thing don't they?
It's like Creationists bringing up a hundred year old fraud to discredit evolution. They just don't have any substantial attacks to make on the game or Privateer Press so they focus on an outlier. It's not like you couldn't just mention the Alexia boxed set of 22 models and rules for $65.
I get why people like the 40K models (and are willing to pay the prices), I get why they love the setting, I just can't wrap my head around why they like the rules so much.
To me these are far more interesting- and it's not like you can't make half a dozen different attachments (plus special weapon WAs!) to customise units- than the real tactical marines.
no one who actually wargames finds 40k to be more fun, or fun at all, then warmahordes...
also how did you spend 100's of dollars on WMHs? everyone knows its like, 50$ at most for a complete army of random units that will compete with even the most cheesiest of cheese WMH lists.
No one has ever said any of these things. Stop being a big baby over the fact that people disagree with you.
Ya right. $50 for a real good warmachine list haha!!!! I have a unit of Iron fang pikemen at $90 a box.... A battlebox is $50 just to get you started, a decent 50 point list would run you in the 300-400 range CAD.
And yes I actually happen to be loving 40k in 7th edition, its a fantastic game! I played warmachine a few times now again since this post and for some reason still feel the same...
Except no one who plays and likes Warmachine has said " 50$ at most for a complete army of random units that will compete with even the most cheesiest of cheese WMH lists". What people who play Warmachine say is $50 gets you a solid starter set for a game that remains relatively deep and balanced at low points levels. Easysauce is just super-angry that there are people who value different aspects of this hobby than he does.
And yep, a decent 50pt Warmachine list is around 300-400 CAD.
How much is a decent 2000 point 40K list? My calculations have it at somewhere around $500+ USD.
I've actually done some math in the past and written several 35 point Warmachine (local average game size) and 1500 point 40K lists (actually smaller than local average game size, but IIRC the points level recommended by the BRB). The Warmachine lists averaged $230. The 40K lists averaged somewhere around $430.
I've always said that if your idea of value is "how many models do I get per box?" then 40K is generally the better value. If your idea is "How much will I have to spend to start playing and how much will I have to spend to get a single army at the standard 'recommended' points level?" well....
Me? I love miniatures, and I enjoy collecting them, but I want to play games with them. That's the most important thing for me. I also prefer a relatively balanced and clear rule-set that requires no house-ruling over Warhammer 40K and its bizarre obsession with randomizing almost everything.
With all that said, if you like 40K more, and think it's worth the money, great! Have fun! (and I mean that with absolutely no sarcasm).
EDIT: Hey, Kojiro, is there a complete set of those cards? I might actually have a use for my current Space Marine collection if there are!
This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2014/08/15 05:50:22
Thought for the day 
3000pts
500 pts
40k Orks 12000 points and growing
Ultramarines 2500
Necrons 4000
40IK - PP Conversion Project Files