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 adamsouza wrote:


Termies are on 40mm bases because of scale creep of the models made them look stupid on 25mm bases and GW already produced 40mm bases.

Also termies gained 15mm on a 25mm base, that's more than a 50% increase in size, and it's still legal to use 25mm bases on your old models.

The 7mm difference on the new tacticals would require a situation where 5 of them were shoulder to shoulder in a straight line before the difference equaled a single base length.

My wife says every inch counts.

Seriously, though, like I said, the original terminators were barely bigger than normal space marines; in fact many heroes were larger and bulkier than terminators. The new terminators correctly look more like lumbering hulks, and are a much better aesthetic, appearing much bigger and tougher than "mere" space marines (and certainly flak-vest-wearing IG).

If they start releasing troop size miniatures in poses where 32mm would be an advantage (without bulking up the model), that would be great!


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 Anpu42 wrote:

Talys wrote:
What you're describing is something 5 or more years from now, when stores exhausted most inventory, and GW has transitioned *everything* to new bases. And probably 10th edition rules. Even then, private tournaments would likely follow GW tournaments on this.

GW is running Tournaments Again?

I thought they did not Sponsor Tournaments anymore?

Perhaps I was being imprecise. I meant, Warhammer 40k tournaments held at Games Workshop stores. For instance, in December 2014, there is a 2000 point 40k tournament in the Canadian west coast Games Workshop store:

https://www.facebook.com/events/496673130448321/?ref=5

In march, there was a 1000 pt tournament, and in July, there was a 1500 point tournament. My understanding is that models are allowed on original release base, or current base. What actually makes much more difference than a 7mm or even 25 to 40mm is the oval versus round bases, because the surface area difference for blast is huge. And then, of course, facing issues.

Talys wrote:

 Lockark wrote:
In my experience, models having to be on proper bases is super important in tournaments for games like Warhammer Fantesy and Warmahoards. If your TO is use to running tournament format for thows games he will put the same expectation on the 40k tournament.

I have played in tournments were if you use the old metal terminators, your expected to have them based on the 40mm base like the current models for example.

The reasoning is that well Warhammer 40k isn't as balanced as thows games were base sizes can make a huge difference, the base size of models still has a impact on the game. For friendly pick up games, no one is going to care. For tournaments, you will need to just hear what your TO expects of people.

GW rules are original base or current base. Of course, people can say whatever they want for their own games, but a tournament that insists that all units be rebased to 32mm would be an empty tournament. You can't even *buy* the vast majority of units in 32mm, or buy 32mm blanks. And no store operator is going to say, "you can't play with any of the 25mm models on our shelf", because then they would not sell anything

What you're describing is something 5 or more years from now, when stores exhausted most inventory, and GW has transitioned *everything* to new bases. And probably 10th edition rules. Even then, private tournaments would likely follow GW tournaments on this.

Why yes. I am talking about the senario when boxes off the shelf have 32mm bases in them.

That's what this thread is about. The fact SM boxes are starting to be packaged with 32 MM bases.
=/

Also alot of times GW tournments are ran realy piss poor.

 Orock wrote:
What happens when you have a 5 man squad, 3 25 mm bases and 2 32 mm bases? You can use the 32mm bases inbetween each 25mm to protect you from templates a bit better, and sacrifice them first so when you get to meelee the 25 mm bases fit in better. Our stores that guy blood angels player is already planning on doing just that with his "new" death company and "old" death company models.

See it's stuff like that, is why tournments will need to make these kind of ruleings. The RAW rules says that this BA players is totally with-in the rules for what he has done. Because RAW rules allowed him to modle for advantage and mix the base sizes.

40k is the only game were that's even a thing you can do. Every other game on the market have stated base sizes a unit MUST be mounted on. Alot of rule sets even list this base size in the unit entry.

Like for a pick-up game it's not a big deal, because if someone is being a tool like that, you just don't play ageist him. That's why I even said in a pick-up game i wouldn't care if someone's army was still on the 25mm bases. It's very diffrent in a tournment setting. This is why TO's will be forced to make calls like this ALOT sooner then 5 years from now. If the whole BA army is having it's bases changed out in this release, with the normal SM kits soon after, your going to start seeing mixed base armies realy soon.

The whole issue with base sizes is only a tournament drama thing, not a weekend pick-up game issue.

 Azreal13 wrote:
I really don't see that bases are in any way all that expensive to produce, even in plastic, I mean, sure, they will require a new mould, but it isn't like it's a massively complex affair like a kit, it's just a bunch of geometric shapes.

No, I stand by my original point, anyone making bases for a living will, at worst, be only mildly inconvenienced by this until they can get up to speed on making 32mm circles, or alternatively continue making bases for all the thousands of models that don't require a 32mm base.

There is simply no way this is the first shot in GW's new plan to eviscerate the third party base industry, it is just too much of a stretch.

Resin aside as we both agree that resin makers will adapt quickly.

A plastic mold is doable in-house for GW, but I don't think you realize how expensive it is to have a third party make a mold for plastic of the precision necessary. It's not going to come from a small operation like Proxie. Eventually some company will do it, but GW is going to have the corner on plastic 32mm's for a while. Even when someone else does get around to doing a mold for plastic it will be GW and that company. It's going to be a long while before there are as many producers of 32mm bases as their are of plastic slottas today.

Right now there's a glut of plastic slottas available because they are produced on old tooling mostly coming from earlier big game companies like Warzone and such from the 90's. No such 2nd hand tooling exists for 32mm bases.

GW doesn't give a care about resin base makers, but they can get at least a year or so of being the sole maker of 32mm plastics and many more years of being one of a few. It's a great strategy for them and guarantees some additional income for a while.

 adamsouza wrote:

 Theduke07 wrote:
Base size matters or Termies wouldn't be on 40mm. If GW was sane like other titles with standard bases for unit types the size would relate to a clear threat range.

Termies are on 40mm bases because of scale creep of the models made them look stupid on 25mm bases and GW already produced 40mm bases.

Also termies gained 15mm on a 25mm base, that's more than a 50% increase in size, and it's still legal to use 25mm bases on your old models.

The 7mm difference on the new tacticals would require a situation where 5 of them were shoulder to shoulder in a straight line before the difference equaled a single base length.

I wasent allowed to use my old broadsides at a tourney, because of their base size. I dident end up going, but it was still enforced.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
One problem I can forsee is fitting models onto the upper levels of ruins. It was always a pain getting my big squads of devastators and scouts to fit on the upper floors.

That can be easily solved by buying the new "True Scale" ruin kits that GW are bringing out next year.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Theduke07 wrote:
Base size matters or Termies wouldn't be on 40mm. If GW was sane like other titles with standard bases for unit types the size would relate to a clear threat range.

Terminators were on 25mm bases until about five (ish?) years ago.

Wait wait wait... bring me up to speed please! So is this a known fact now, are you speculating that there may be a change?


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 Eilif wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
I really don't see that bases are in any way all that expensive to produce, even in plastic, I mean, sure, they will require a new mould, but it isn't like it's a massively complex affair like a kit, it's just a bunch of geometric shapes.

No, I stand by my original point, anyone making bases for a living will, at worst, be only mildly inconvenienced by this until they can get up to speed on making 32mm circles, or alternatively continue making bases for all the thousands of models that don't require a 32mm base.

There is simply no way this is the first shot in GW's new plan to eviscerate the third party base industry, it is just too much of a stretch.

Resin aside as we both agree that resin makers will adapt quickly.

A plastic mold is doable in-house for GW, but I don't think you realize how expensive it is to have a third party make a mold for plastic of the precision necessary. It's not going to come from a small operation like Proxie. Eventually some company will do it, but GW is going to have the corner on plastic 32mm's for a while. Even when someone else does get around to doing a mold for plastic it will be GW and that company. It's going to be a long while before there are as many producers of 32mm bases as their are of plastic slottas today.

Right now there's a glut of plastic slottas available because they are produced on old tooling mostly coming from earlier big game companies like Warzone and such from the 90's. No such 2nd hand tooling exists for 32mm bases.

GW doesn't give a care about resin base makers, but they can get at least a year or so of being the sole maker of 32mm plastics and many more years of being one of a few. It's a great strategy for them and guarantees some additional income for a while.

Until someone figures out that just cutting 32mm circles of plasticard is cheaper than buying new bases...

I cannot bring myself to believe that GW think they will solve their financial problems by changing SM models to 32mm plastic bases.

It simply reflects the scale creep of the models over the years.

I'm not sure the game is really designed to take a general base size increase. Tabletops are crowded enough as they are without expanding the space that normal units take up. It seems clumsy and unnecessary.

This can't really be about GW trying to mess about third parties by introducing a new base size can it? It sounds silly but they've become so petty minded in recent years it seems to prevent any secondary market. If they did switch over to 32mm stock as standard it would certainly wrong foot companies like Microarts who would now have a big hole in all their ranges and a pile of 25mm bases that are in less demand.

I'm probably being overly suspicious. But GW seem to like changing to be different just not to fit in with the war gaming hobby. Because somehow going against the grain helps them. All it means is there are now a pile of differently sized bases to play their games which is just awkward and ugly.

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
I

This can't really be about GW trying to mess about third parties by introducing a new base size can it? It sounds silly but they've become so petty minded in recent years it seems to prevent any secondary market. If they did switch over to 32mm stock as standard it would certainly wrong foot companies like Microarts who would now have a big hole in all their ranges and a pile of 25mm bases that are in less demand.

I don't really think this is true.

If I have, say, 100 Space Marines on 25mm bases, and that is the bases they stay on, Microarts (or whoever) wouldn't sell a single 25mm base to me.

If I decide to rebase them, Microarts could cash in, if they bring some nifty 32mm bases. If not, they still don't lose a single sale compared to the status quo above.

If I buy new Space Marine and decide to base them with Microarts, they'll probably be charging me more for 32mm than they would have for 25mm bases.

And I doubt they pre-cast thousands of resin-cast bases to stockpile them in a pricey warehouse. Kinda defeats the point of resin-cast bases.

I don't see how this can be anything but a huge boon for Microarts and other base-makers. They must be ecstatic.

Wonderwolf wrote:

I don't really think this is true.

If I have, say, 100 Space Marines on 25mm bases, and that is the bases they stay on, Microarts (or whoever) wouldn't sell a single 25mm base to me.

If I decide to rebase them, Microarts could cash in, if they bring some nifty 32mm bases. If not, they still don't lose a single sale compared to the status quo above.

If, say, GW brought out a Blood Angels tactical squad on 25mm bases, and you bought one, Microarts could sell you some 25mm scenic bases to go with it. GW change to 32mm - you buy the kit - you don't buy 25mm bases from Microarts (or you might do if, like me, you're ignoring this completely arbitrary change, but still you're more likely to if the kit still uses 25mm). Thus, they've got stock of 25mm bases that are less valuable - unless you think generally the majority buy scenic bases to re-base finished models (hint: they obviously don't, they buy them when they buy new kits).

Note, I'm not saying I think this is why GW did it - honestly, I don't care why they did it - just trying to help with the logic.

 Bull0 wrote:


If, say, GW brought out a Blood Angels tactical squad on 25mm bases, and you bought one, Microarts could sell you some 25mm scenic bases to go with it. GW change to 32mm - you buy the kit - you don't buy 25mm bases from Microarts (or you might do if, like me, you're ignoring this completely arbitrary change, but still you're more likely to if the kit still uses 25mm). Thus, they've got stock of 25mm bases that are less valuable - unless you think generally the majority buy scenic bases to re-base finished models (hint: they obviously don't, they buy them when they buy new kits).

Note, I'm not saying I think this is why GW did it - honestly, I don't care why they did it - just trying to help with the logic.

Perhaps. But that is at worst the business of a week of GW releases they lose. Before GW brings out the next Marine-box, Microarts, etc.. have surely stocked up (and will charge more for 32mm than 25mm).

It's unlikely to cripple the whole business of these companies and more than likely to benefit them in the long term (if GW-miniatures are a sizable part of their business to start with). Thus the notion that GW intentionally changed bases to hurt these small outlets seems ludicrous.

And yes... ignore it is fine. I have plenty of GW miniatures on "wrong" bases, usually larger (and just often higher, with scenery underfoot) than supplied, because cool and/or more stable. Never had an issue with it.

Is GW never allowed to ever change anything about their bases/miniatures, because it might cost some obscure 3rd party manufacturer three or four sales? Was there a paranoid uproar like this when they changed the base size for Terminators?

Wonderwolf wrote:

 Bull0 wrote:


If, say, GW brought out a Blood Angels tactical squad on 25mm bases, and you bought one, Microarts could sell you some 25mm scenic bases to go with it. GW change to 32mm - you buy the kit - you don't buy 25mm bases from Microarts (or you might do if, like me, you're ignoring this completely arbitrary change, but still you're more likely to if the kit still uses 25mm). Thus, they've got stock of 25mm bases that are less valuable - unless you think generally the majority buy scenic bases to re-base finished models (hint: they obviously don't, they buy them when they buy new kits).

Note, I'm not saying I think this is why GW did it - honestly, I don't care why they did it - just trying to help with the logic.

Perhaps. But that is at worst the business of a week of GW releases they lose. Before GW brings out the next Marine-box, Microarts, etc.. have surely stocked up (and will charge more for 32mm than 25mm).

It's unlikely to cripple the whole business of these companies and more than likely to benefit them in the long term (if GW-miniatures are a sizable part of their business to start with). Thus the notion that GW intentionally changed bases to hurt these small outlets seems ludicrous.

And yes... ignore it is fine. I have plenty of GW miniatures on "wrong" bases, usually larger (and just often higher, with scenery underfoot) than supplied, because cool and/or more stable. Never had an issue with it.

Is GW never allowed to ever change anything about their bases/miniatures, because it might cost some obscure 3rd party manufacturer three or four sales? Was there a paranoid uproar like this when they changed the base size for Terminators?

I think it's more recently in light of some of their sillier business moves, and with the whole Chapterhouse case and their very trigger happy IP lawyers, that people are assuming everything they do is to spite other companies.

I agree with you though, I don't think it will affect other base makers at all, even if that was their intention. Maybe for like a couple of weeks, but after that it'll just be more sales for resin base manufacturers.

Wonderwolf wrote:

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
I

This can't really be about GW trying to mess about third parties by introducing a new base size can it? It sounds silly but they've become so petty minded in recent years it seems to prevent any secondary market. If they did switch over to 32mm stock as standard it would certainly wrong foot companies like Microarts who would now have a big hole in all their ranges and a pile of 25mm bases that are in less demand.

I don't really think this is true.

If I have, say, 100 Space Marines on 25mm bases, and that is the bases they stay on, Microarts (or whoever) wouldn't sell a single 25mm base to me.

If I decide to rebase them, Microarts could cash in, if they bring some nifty 32mm bases. If not, they still don't lose a single sale compared to the status quo above.

If I buy new Space Marine and decide to base them with Microarts, they'll probably be charging me more for 32mm than they would have for 25mm bases.

And I doubt they pre-cast thousands of resin-cast bases to stockpile them in a pricey warehouse. Kinda defeats the point of resin-cast bases.

I don't see how this can be anything but a huge boon for Microarts and other base-makers. They must be ecstatic.

Micro arts just finished their kickstarter not too long ago though, so what's more fun to do to your opponent than make something brand new of theirs obsolete right after they tool up and begin production.

People arent going to buy those pretty 25mm bases if they know they are playing in tournaments that require 32mm bases. (Again not every tournament requires this, but look at how many ocd players are out their that will only want one sized base).

 Theophony wrote:

Micro arts just finished their kickstarter not too long ago though, so what's more fun to do to your opponent than make something brand new of theirs obsolete right after they tool up and begin production.

People arent going to buy those pretty 25mm bases if they know they are playing in tournaments that require 32mm bases. (Again not every tournament requires this, but look at how many ocd players are out their that will only want one sized base).

There were no 25mm bases in Micro Arts Kickstarter.


[edit]
There were, however, 50mm bases in that Kickstarter, which GW has now introduced to their range (e.g. Tyranid Warriors in the Deathstorm box). Again, Micro Arts lucks out big time.

Also, GW probably manufactured, painted, photographed for the White Dwarf and shipped to their warehouses all the current Blood Angels releases, long before the Micro Arts Kickstarter launched.

And if there really is a TO out there getting all worked up about not allowing 25mm bases on Space Marines after this weeks release, he'd certainly deserve a rightful smacking for being such an idiot. Seriously.

Now, to be honest, I'd prefer 32mm bases over the 25mm. Bigger minis are less likely to fall, you have more space for some nice basing and the broad-legged minis can actually plant their feet on top of the base.

Still, is it definite that all-bulky-jump-infantry is shifting to 32?

Wonderwolf wrote:
Is GW never allowed to ever change anything about their bases/miniatures, because it might cost some obscure 3rd party manufacturer three or four sales? Was there a paranoid uproar like this when they changed the base size for Terminators?

"Paranoid uproar" is a bit extreme. No one is going to go bust adapting their product lines to catch up with GW. I don't put much weight in the idea GW did it to mess around third party retailers, but I do think they look for ways to not be compatible to the rest of the hobby because of their phobia of other miniature lines and companies, like moving to a base size that no one else has ever used.

I think it just makes the game a bit more messy. Is it really necessary to have a wargame with figures on 25mm, 32mm, 40mm, 50mm and 60mm bases, large oval bases, flying bases, bike bases? Like their rules, it's a jumbled mess that could do with being simplified not having more thrown in.

 Howard A Treesong wrote:


I think it just makes the game a bit more messy. Is it really necessary to have a wargame with figures on 25mm, 32mm, 40mm, 50mm and 60mm bases, large oval bases, flying bases, bike bases? Like their rules, it's a jumbled mess that could do with being simplified not having more thrown in.

Maybe. But ... ya know .. if they'd throw out .. say .. 25mm bases and truly went over to (IMO visually better) 32mm without looking back, all the griping and whining we've seen in this thread probably would've been deserved.

On the other hand, if they would forever hold off with things like 32mm bases, they'd effectively resign themselves to never ever changing things, innovating or ever trying out anything new, because every "addition" to the game/hobby would by your definition be unwelcome, unless it completely replaces something old as to not "add more" to the whole, which would also be unwelcome.

We'll see how a "drastic change" that is set to actually clear out some old baggage and make things simpler again will be received by the community in WFB after the End Times. My guess, it'll not go down to well with people. Hell, GW still gets flack for dropping Squats or simplifying Chaos Space Marines from the convoluted mess of 3.5. to the more streamlined later CSM books. Also, the slightly simplified 7th Edition Codexes haven't really been getting good press either.

I don't think they can get rid of 25mm bases as smaller figures will look ridiculous on 32mm. Grots will look lost on a 32mm base.

 Lockark wrote:

 Orock wrote:
What happens when you have a 5 man squad, 3 25 mm bases and 2 32 mm bases? You can use the 32mm bases inbetween each 25mm to protect you from templates a bit better, and sacrifice them first so when you get to meelee the 25 mm bases fit in better. Our stores that guy blood angels player is already planning on doing just that with his "new" death company and "old" death company models.

See it's stuff like that, is why tournments will need to make these kind of ruleings. The RAW rules says that this BA players is totally with-in the rules for what he has done. Because RAW rules allowed him to modle for advantage and mix the base sizes.

40k is the only game were that's even a thing you can do. Every other game on the market have stated base sizes a unit MUST be mounted on. Alot of rule sets even list this base size in the unit entry.

Bollocks.
Corvus Belli published an entire listing of models to be adjusted in base sizes, yet did not require that you use the actual base they posted for ITS...

And to prevent any kind of "drama" there, they came up with the ridiculous silhouette system.


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 Howard A Treesong wrote:

Wonderwolf wrote:
Is GW never allowed to ever change anything about their bases/miniatures, because it might cost some obscure 3rd party manufacturer three or four sales? Was there a paranoid uproar like this when they changed the base size for Terminators?

"Paranoid uproar" is a bit extreme. No one is going to go bust adapting their product lines to catch up with GW. I don't put much weight in the idea GW did it to mess around third party retailers, but I do think they look for ways to not be compatible to the rest of the hobby because of their phobia of other miniature lines and companies, like moving to a base size that no one else has ever used.

I think it just makes the game a bit more messy. Is it really necessary to have a wargame with figures on 25mm, 32mm, 40mm, 50mm and 60mm bases, large oval bases, flying bases, bike bases? Like their rules, it's a jumbled mess that could do with being simplified not having more thrown in.

As was mentioned by someone else, the 32mm base that they're releasing is the same size as a small flying base.

So it's not like that specific size is anything really new--beyond now being in a flatter format.

Was pondering this change of base size then something hit me.

If a 10 man tac squad is in a rhino that suffers an explodes damage result, there is no way to place 10 models with 32mm bases within the footprint of the rhino. Meaning a good chunk of the squad will be removed from play.

Another blatant example of the in depth play testing GW employs

I don't get where this notion of "all infantry are going to be 32mm" is coming from, considering deathstorm itself comes with 25mm bases.

Seems to me like its just a jump unit thing. (like the DC are)

thekoz wrote:
Was pondering this change of base size then something hit me.

If a 10 man tac squad is in a rhino that suffers an explodes damage result, there is no way to place 10 models with 32mm bases within the footprint of the rhino. Meaning a good chunk of the squad will be removed from play.

Another blatant example of the in depth play testing GW employs

It's generally going to be a gak thing to have a tactical squad on those 32mm bases. Dismounting from vehicles will be a ballache, fitting them in to any kind of fortification or terrain is going to be a ballache.

I'm really liking the 32mm idea. I can do more on the base, Marines will feel larger to me and there'll be a lot more stability and less melee snagging.

I'm even going to sell up all my Marines now, while 32mm isn't standard and start up a 32mm BA army with that new tac squad.

 BoomWolf wrote:
I don't get where this notion of "all infantry are going to be 32mm" is coming from, considering deathstorm itself comes with 25mm bases.

Seems to me like its just a jump unit thing. (like the DC are)

It's a rumour from Lords of Wargaming ( - Total rumors: (12 TRUE) / (0 FALSE) / (0 PARTIALLY TRUE/VAGUE) ) who seem to be the best source of accurate long term rumours at the moment

(and its all 25mms will be replace eventually, not tomorrow, so it may well only happen as new kits are released or the do a new production run of the old ones so think years not days for it to happen)

even with 100% accuracy, 12 rumors is hardly a big enough base to work with.

And given the FACT that the only kit so far to include 32mm also includes 25mm (deathstorm) it would make ZERO sense for all models to be 32mm, even if you ignore the stupidity of gradual changes (because having 2 different marine kits of different sized bases really is dumb.)

 BoomWolf wrote:
even with 100% accuracy, 12 rumors is hardly a big enough base to work with.

Big enough base to work with! Ha!

Oh my, that pun wasn't even intended XD

I think we are all getting paranoid on this thing...

I can see a clearly plan from GW here...
Like in fantasy there is infantry on 20mm and 25mm squadre bases in 40k there will be smaller infantry on 20mm bases and infantry on bigger 25mm bases (SM, orks and so on)...
In addiction the 32mm bases are incidentally as big as the small clear flying bases and 60mm bases like the big clear flying bases... this could lead to have jet bikes on 32mm round bases with just the clear stand and LS and similar on the 60mm round bases with just the clear stand like in fantasy flying things are on the appropiate plastica base with a clear stand on it or like the crisis squits can be mounted with a clear stand on the 40mm round base...
in addiction i can see how the small oval base is about 75mm long and 32mm widfe... this makes it about the same size of nowadays bike bases... i guess that bikes could receive a rebasing on this oval bases too and the attack bikes and similar could receive a intermediate oval base size for them...
My idea is that GW is trying to make a more organica basing for their games... they don't give a feth about resin bases makers... And resin bases makers in few months will put on the market all the new base sizes (i can see microart already designing them)...

I will keep my marines on 25mm bases BTW... i am not gonna throw away about a hundred of microarts and scibor resin 25mm bases...

 BoomWolf wrote:

And given the FACT that the only kit so far to include 32mm also includes 25mm (deathstorm) it would make ZERO sense for all models to be 32mm, even if you ignore the stupidity of gradual changes (because having 2 different marine kits of different sized bases really is dumb.)

Have you actually read this thread? Deathstorm is not the only kit, new BA tacticals are on 32mm as well.

 adamsouza wrote:
It makes some sense to have bulky models on a larger base.

I'm not buying ALL models changed to 32mm, and I mean that literaly as well as figuratively as well. Who in their right mind would want to rebase an entire collection from 25 to 32mm ?

Makes sense from the money making perspective.