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He's "by the book" except not really because he's always willing to throw the book away to benefit himself; he's "orderly" except not really, because he can never really maintain the orderliness he creates; he's "rational" except not really, because his egotism leads him to do irrational things that cause others to dislike him.

tl;dr: what I'm saying is, don't build him up to be some boring mary sue, as I see you doing right now. It does him and the fluff in general a disservice.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I don't see what Guilliman's doing as a power grab.

He was put in his position when other Primarchs were still alive, and is just returning to his prior position. He is acting as a figurehead for the Imperium, which was in desperate need of one.

Has he done questionable stuff? Yeah, absolutely. Was it the right thing to do? We've yet to see the full effects, but as it's looking, yeah, it looks like it needed to be done.

He's by the book, orderly, logical and rational. These are traits that a lot of people don't like in their characters - the edgy, the damaged, the loose cannons are far more popular. Guilliman is a creature of war, but he is a very good statsman - in fact, no other Primarch, arguably barring Sanguinius or Horus was his match in governance. He is the best qualified for this job, and I'd trust him on this.

I dont recall him being much of a figure head. certainly for his own 500 worlds but no the imperium.

You know, I was so busy pointing out the whole Superman/Batman thing, I forgot to mention how my Chapter will react to the Primaris...

So, my chapter is Blood Angels, and that means I already know how my chapter reacted. Tyranid ate a bunch of them, and they'll gladly take all of the help they can get. The end.

But, personally, my army is made up of tacticals, terminators, and assault marines. And, when I put a "big marine" next to them, it messes up the part where I've been imagining that the existing miniatures are already supposed to be big. I could replace all of my tacticals with Primaris, but that seems a bit silly. I don't want bolter marines that are bigger than the Sanguinary guard.

Ultimately, I decided to keep the starter set Primaris separate from my Blood Angels, and paint them in Ultramarine colors. There are units I've always wanted to field, like the Landspeeder Storm, that Blood Angels don't get to play with, that fit fine into a UM force. And, I have a bunch of unused scouts from back when BA scouts were worse than everyone else's. So, I'll make a small Primaris army with scouts training to become Primaris, and just field them alongside my existing BAs, or on their own once their big enough. That way, I keep my BA flavor, and don't lose the chance to paint some new miniatures.

 Galas wrote:
Guilliman is Caesar... hes a Tyrant. Yes, he destroyed the "corrupt republic" and appointed himself as the leader of the Imperium. He is a statist, a very good one, but at the end of the day he is still a ruthless warmongering ruler.
Of course, like he should be. The Primarchs aren't any superheroes or good guys. They are monsters created for War.

I agree with Melissia that what Guilliman has in his favour over all of his brothers is that he actually knows how to rule things. Obviously, this makes him "boring" for many people. Personally my favourite kind of character are the legal ones so I really like him (Yes, I ignore the Matt Ward Ultramarine masturbation fantasies)

yeah I've always found the characters who wrote the book more intreasting then "LOL the book is wrong! I break the rulez and still win!" it can be intreasting (the space wolves, oddly are an example of how it can work, the space wolves simply follow their own tried and true methodolgy)

I also think of all the Primarchs to bring back Gulliman was the best one BECAUSE of what he has in favor over his brothers. Let's get this out of the way first, other then MAYBE the Lion, none of the other Primarchs want Gulliman's job. Dorn, Vulkan and Russ all would have had the chance to declare themselves Gulliman's "heir" should they have so desired to. but didn't suggesting they had no intrest in the job. the other two, Corax and the Khan, I don't think it's in their personalities. if any other primarch returned, they'd run around smashing heads sure but that's about it, Gulliman though would be a leader for the full imperium, allowing for GW to make changes to pretty much the whole IOM, which we can argue about but it makes for intreasting things,

Let's be fair, if Russ came back we'd have people of the opinion no primarchs should come back, space wolves would get a new model, but... not a lot would likely happen beyond that. Gulliman though is already beginning to reshape the IoM, giving GW the potential excuse to revamp EVERY army (obviously non IOM factions won't sit back if the IoM is suddenly developing new toys)

PSA: I didn't read through everything for lack of time..BUT!

I play Dark Angels and have been wrestling with this question for a bit. This is what I've come up with. Azrael, like the Lion will see the first Primaris as a tool and nothing more. They will be treated similar to Techmarines in that they will be kept at arms length from the varying circles of knowledge within the Chapter and can never, ever join the inner circle. Basically they can never be more than line troops with sergeant being the highest possible rank they can achieve with no inkling of the secret the Dark Angels guard.

However, since the knowledge on how to create the Primaris marines was also given out to the chapters, they will slowly start to create their own that can advance through the different circles of trust, holding higher ranks, and eventually even becoming part of the inner circle. This will take decades if not centuries most likely and as of now my Dark Angels only have 1 Primaris that has been awarded the rank of LT.

Unfortunately, the higher ranking officers accompanying the new Primaris Marines where tragically lost in a fight against a cultist uprising lead by followers of Grandfather Nurgle. For unknown reasons they were all co-located in one warzone and Azrael was forced to have his Dark Talons fire their rift cannons into the waves of cultist approaching the Dark Angles positions, lest they be over whelmed. The officers were caught in the resulting rift vortex along with many of the dark god's follows. They were honored as heroes.

 Melissia wrote:

Yes, it's quite unfortunate. The primarchs should never have been force-fed down 40k's throat, and the game is worse for their introduction.

No, he isn't. In game, he kills things and makes other people kill things better, and nothing more.

Funnily enough, that's also what he does in the lore.

Nice strawman argument there.

I was comparing him to the other primarchs, and it was blatantly obvious that I was doing so.

I agree on not wanting the primarchs (loyalist or traitors) running around, but I kinda like the idea of Cain this hero in the books in the greay scheme of things being an anonymous commissar. Inknow thay doest necessarily line up with how his character develops, but its just my point of opinion.

As for the nature of Roboute in the game, yes as a playing piece that's all he does. But his inclusion in the game to me at least makes him feel like a more substantial weight to base things on. But then again that's also totally subjective. In the end, I prefer the look into the politics of the Imperium that Roboute offers.

I'm honestly asking what you mean by them- because the actual organization of tje pre heresy ultramarines isnt significantly different from any other legion. The difference is the back drop of support for and the development of conquests into a support network for the Ultramarines. But that's a pretty significant step up from jist organizing his chess pieces better than other players.

So it's a fair question, because I really don't see what you're trying to get at.

Look, I understand Im not gonna change your opinion, and that's not what Im trying to get at. I am however curious about the hate train on Roboute, and you're more willing than most to be open about it. I'm definitely not trying to be too combative or argumentative- and if it seems like I am, I'm sorry!

Actually it's more like I'm exaggerating my dislike of him because people spent the majority of this thread kissing his ass, and it's getting on my nerves.

 Melissia wrote:

Yes, it's quite unfortunate. The primarchs should never have been force-fed down 40k's throat, and the game is worse for their introduction.

No, he isn't. In game, he kills things and makes other people kill things better, and nothing more.

Funnily enough, that's also what he does in the lore.

Nice strawman argument there.

I was comparing him to the other primarchs, and it was blatantly obvious that I was doing so.

I agree on not wanting the primarchs (loyalist or traitors) running around, but I kinda like the idea of Cain this hero in the books in the greay scheme of things being an anonymous commissar. Inknow thay doest necessarily line up with how his character develops, but its just my point of opinion.

As for the nature of Roboute in the game, yes as a playing piece that's all he does. But his inclusion in the game to me at least makes him feel like a more substantial weight to base things on. But then again that's also totally subjective. In the end, I prefer the look into the politics of the Imperium that Roboute offers.

I'm honestly asking what you mean by them- because the actual organization of tje pre heresy ultramarines isnt significantly different from any other legion. The difference is the back drop of support for and the development of conquests into a support network for the Ultramarines. But that's a pretty significant step up from jist organizing his chess pieces better than other players.

So it's a fair question, because I really don't see what you're trying to get at.

Look, I understand Im not gonna change your opinion, and that's not what Im trying to get at. I am however curious about the hate train on Roboute, and you're more willing than most to be open about it. I'm definitely not trying to be too combative or argumentative- and if it seems like I am, I'm sorry!

That is an impressively delayed double post.

Incidentally, there's a passage regarding how the Crimson fists reacted to receiving their own Primaris Marines that seems relevant to the discussion.

The Crimson Fists marveled at the return of Robute Gulliman, but where even more greatful for the arrival of the Primaris Space Marines bearing their own herealdry. Here where Warriors closerin genetic composition to their own Primarch, ,Rogal Dorn, then had ever before Existed. For his raw material Cawl had selected warriors from Terra, and had taken them only a few generations after the original Imperial Fists had been created by the Emperor. Indeed some had been in stasis since the days of the great crusade; a few of the Primaris Marines could recall having seen Rogal Dorn himself.

I suspect the "great crusade" bit may be a mistake, (unless the great crusade in this case they simply mean the era of the Legions) so this gives us some insight into how chapters reacted to this.