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 AegisGrimm wrote:
You do know most of this is personal headcanon based on how we build our own armies, right?

Seriously. Some of the "this is how canon will probably work" answers are perfectly reasonable, but there's a lot of seriously aggressive nonsense regarding how wrong headcanon is, here.

Realistically I find it hard to believe any Space Marine Chapter can get away with total refusal. Guilliman is a Primarch and occupy a place in the Imperial religion dominated worldview like an Archangel (if one sees Marines as Angels). Even in Chapters that claim to not be religious (self-deception I say), the Primarchs still occupy a position of reverence beyond that of any normal human High Lord. If anyone in the 40K era could claim to have an idea of the Emperor's intent and will, it would be a Primarch, who interacted with a living walking Emperor.

Iracundus wrote:
Realistically I find it hard to believe any Space Marine Chapter can get away with total refusal. Guilliman is a Primarch and occupy a place in the Imperial religion dominated worldview like an Archangel (if one sees Marines as Angels). Even in Chapters that claim to not be religious (self-deception I say), the Primarchs still occupy a position of reverence beyond that of any normal human High Lord. If anyone in the 40K era could claim to have an idea of the Emperor's intent and will, it would be a Primarch, who interacted with a living walking Emperor.

Guilliman is the one who suggested no individual short of the Emperor should have that level of power in the Imperium, that was the whole reason behind breaking up the legions. It is certainly suspicious if a chapter turns down the reinforcements, but I don't think he should be forcing the issue on anyone.

 nerdfest09 wrote:
I'm kind of pleased on a personal level I don't love the Primaris marines, they look good but I really don't want them in my army or for an army which is great considering my current army is the Minotaurs, attack dogs of the High Lords of Terra! always looking to prove themselves against greater foes, the Primaris will be a great reason to lay some smack down! not to mention Lord Asterion is already bigger than those little guys! ;-) the story arc between the High Lords and the Minotaurs could really expand into the wider universe if it gets deeper into the secrets.

except Gulliman controls the high lords of Terra so I can't see the Minotaurs not having Primaris Marines. course this also raises an intreasting point, the Ultramarines are going to be the fair haired children of the lords right now, one wonders how the Minotaurs will respond to likely being shunted to the side. and treated like just another chapter of Marines.

I have two loyalist Chapters: Blood Angels and Dark Angels. I can see these two Chapters being at opposite ends of this argument about what to do with the Primaris Space Marines.

Blood Angels: With the approach of the Tyranids, the Blood Angels are desperate for Space Marines. <SPOILER> Dante even requested geneseed from his successor chapters. So I imagine, the Blood Angels would put them to work immediately, testing their abilities and granting them a greater role in Baal's defense as they prove themselves..

Dark Angels: The new Space Marines would be accepted, but not trusted. They would be treated as unproven recruits, and be required to earn the Chapter's trust, the way any new recruit is treated. Honestly, I could see them just packaged together as a new Primaris Wing, to keep tabs on them and sent off to non chaos related missions. The DA don't need Space Marines the way the Blood Angels do

*cough* Legion building *cough*

 Phydox wrote:

Dark Angels: The new Space Marines would be accepted, but not trusted. They would be treated as unproven recruits, and be required to earn the Chapter's trust, the way any new recruit is treated. Honestly, I could see them just packaged together as a new Primaris Wing, to keep tabs on them and sent off to non chaos related missions. The DA don't need Space Marines the way the Blood Angels do

*cough* Legion building *cough*

I suggest looking at the list of models given the Deathwing rule, you'll find Captain in Gravis Armor listed. So unless regular Captains can use it, looks like Primaris get to be invited to the secret dress parties.

i would suspect my chapter, the Blades of Invictus might not get primaris marines due to the fact that the ordo hereticus are breathing down their necks. if roboute guilliman got past the inquisition and sent my chapter the primaris marines (which i hope will happen.) part of my chapter (specifically my 4th and 11th company) had gone missing after the fall of cadia, so my chapter would be reluctant about their new brothers; but they would retrain the primaris marines and and fill in the two companies.

While the Blood Angels have been hammered in recent conflicts, and even though the other Companies have accepted the reinforcements supplied to aid in our defense of Baal... the 3rd Company has no need of them. The captain of the 3rd would rather take reinforcements from successor Chapters and their gene-seed and stand tall (well... short) as proud Astartes the way the Emperor envisioned.

It may be arrogance, but we are Blood Angels and the 3rd stands firm as true Astartes. The Tallarn fighting in the area are giving the 3rd support while we gloriously rise from the ashes on wings made of vengeance and wrath, working to restore our numbers.

(Now I can create a reason for both of my armies to work together, and should be real neat to slowly mix in more and more Blood Angels as I build and paint them, until I have the complete 3rd Company and run them by themselves)

 ChazSexington wrote:
My Alpha Legion will be very curious about exactly how the Imperium suddenly got a hold of this tech, and will be asking Fabius some very thorough questions.

Secondly, spreading propaganda about how these are just psycho-indocrinated, gene-seed tampered Ultramarines loyal to Guilliman and no-one else. How else would you explain the sudden curing of the Canis Helix, Red Thirst, Black Rage, and Bathrobes, and their exclusively Guilliman-approved training?

I mean, wasn't this exactly why the Codex Astartes was implemented in the first place? But noooooo, not if Guilliman's the one in charge! The High Secretary hasn't ever done anything wrong! He's not even mislaid a paperclip in his life - his pens are organised alphabetically, his shampoos by fabrication date, and his fridge contents by colour.

Haha! Exalt for conspiracy theories

And also, anything that makes Guilliman more the scheming hypocrite makes me happy not because I've got some sort of hate for Guilliman, but more because I feel it makes him a more compelling character.

Iracundus wrote:
Realistically I find it hard to believe any Space Marine Chapter can get away with total refusal. Guilliman is a Primarch and occupy a place in the Imperial religion dominated worldview like an Archangel (if one sees Marines as Angels). Even in Chapters that claim to not be religious (self-deception I say), the Primarchs still occupy a position of reverence beyond that of any normal human High Lord. If anyone in the 40K era could claim to have an idea of the Emperor's intent and will, it would be a Primarch, who interacted with a living walking Emperor.

There's an assumption here that the upper management of the Imperium has the faintest idea what's going on anywhere else. Like all leaders of large organisations, they'll have the vaguest of ideas what's going on in places and make decisions based on information that's fed to them by a long chain of people.

Given the sheer scale of the Imperium, and the bureaucracy they've perfected, I can absolutely see Astartes chapters doing basically whatever it is they want for a long time before anyone bats an eyelid. Beyond stuff that's immediately traitorous of course.

also I suspect a good deal of those whom reject Primaris Marines do so in... polite manner.

something like this.

Gulliman> hello chapter master Bob of the Emperor's Random Nouns, I'm glad to meet you. and I bring a gift, the secrets to Primaris Marine creation. I shall gift you with the knowledge to raise your brethren to Priamris statusd and create new ones.

Bob> Thank you Lord Commander... *under breath* mess with the emperor's divine work? never..*loudly* we'll make proper use of this knowledge to be sure *underbreath* perhaps I can use the data disc as a coaster.

This is how it actually happened,
Roboute-Now Brother Wulf you are to lead the first company of sorry "pack" of Primaris Marines to our brethren the Space Wolves. Now Brother Russes scions were always notoriously isolationist but I have a cunning plan......
Several months later at the Fang.
Brother Wulf-Greetings my Lord Grimnar. How shall I prove our worth to you?
Lord Grimnar-Pup ypu'll never prove your worth to me.
Brother Wulf- How about a drinking competition then?
Several strong Fenrisian Ales later
Brother Wulf-And now howsh abouts an eatin competition.....
Ulrik the Slayer-Well at least he understands are chapters traditions even if he's a lightweight.

Death to the false Emperor and his lapdog!

My Obsidian Lions have a beef with Ultramarines and Guilliman specifically. Therefore Guilliman and his Guillimarines can go suck it.

I was thinking about resurrecting the Fire Hawks with Primaris Marines, though. Since they have zero to do with the old chapter (not that it's easy to hook up with Fire Hawks these days...) it would only be a pretty color scheme, of course. Got to wait and see how viable that is, though. I really only like normal Mk.X armor, not the flying dudes or Gravis.

BrianDavion wrote:
also I suspect a good deal of those whom reject Primaris Marines do so in... polite manner.

My bad. Guilliman and his Guillimarines can kindly go suck it. There. Diplomacy is me.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

Iracundus wrote:
Realistically I find it hard to believe any Space Marine Chapter can get away with total refusal. Guilliman is a Primarch and occupy a place in the Imperial religion dominated worldview like an Archangel (if one sees Marines as Angels). Even in Chapters that claim to not be religious (self-deception I say), the Primarchs still occupy a position of reverence beyond that of any normal human High Lord. If anyone in the 40K era could claim to have an idea of the Emperor's intent and will, it would be a Primarch, who interacted with a living walking Emperor.

There's an assumption here that the upper management of the Imperium has the faintest idea what's going on anywhere else. Like all leaders of large organisations, they'll have the vaguest of ideas what's going on in places and make decisions based on information that's fed to them by a long chain of people.

Given the sheer scale of the Imperium, and the bureaucracy they've perfected, I can absolutely see Astartes chapters doing basically whatever it is they want for a long time before anyone bats an eyelid. Beyond stuff that's immediately traitorous of course.

Sure, the lag time in communication and travel mean real time control of far flung worlds is impossible. However apparently Guilliman went around in person. Primarchs are more than simply government guys or Marine superhero+++. Any Chapter faced with a resurrected Primarch is going to find it hard if not impossible to give a total refusal to an effective physical demigod that occupies a place analogous to an Archangel, in claiming to know the will of the God(-Emperor). Chapters might covertly or passive aggressively sideline the Primaris marines after superficially accepting them, but I see it hard for any Chapter to outright refuse (let alone directly insult Guilliman to his face).

That very religious reverence is where I see Guilliman falling victim to temptation or failing in his reform, in the sense that I think he will take advantage of his revered status to try and ram changes through the ossified structure of the Imperium. However he also then succumbs to not trying to dismantle the religion of the Imperium because it is "useful" to him.

 Geifer wrote:
My Obsidian Lions have a beef with Ultramarines and Guilliman specifically. Therefore Guilliman and his Guillimarines can go suck it.

your random chapter has a beef with the primarch of the Ultramarines specificly.... because?

In a nutshell: Imperial Fists successor who blame Guilliman for not being there for the defense of Terra, then splitting up their legion so that no one would wield the kind of power Horus had. Then taking over the Imperium with a loyal, almost intact legion backing him and acting like the savior of the Imperium.

That didn't go down well with them. I'm sure you can see how his return playing out similarly won't be greeted well either.

I'm just wondering on would the Chapters want to take them in, sure a large proportion would as they are the next step on the ladder and poop hot, but are there questions as to where does the loyalty of the Primaris marines lie first and foremost. Will it be to Guilliman or to their Chapter? Would the Dark Angels be apprehensive of taking in Primaris Marines if they were to learn their secrets and then run to Guilliman, same with the Blood Angels and theirs. Even if they shared the same Geneseed. In the case of the Blood Angels why not replace every Blood Angel with Primaris if they don't have the flaws.

Also, how do the current Astartes feel to be replaced by the Primaris, I would imagine that some would be wary and darn right outraged that that they, the Emperors finest for 10,000 years, were being pushed to the wayside for this new breed.

It's still new fluff and like with everything else, we will have to wait and see. But I hope something comes of these misgivings and we have another Heresy as Chapters turn against the law of Guilliman,.

Iracundus wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

Iracundus wrote:
Realistically I find it hard to believe any Space Marine Chapter can get away with total refusal. Guilliman is a Primarch and occupy a place in the Imperial religion dominated worldview like an Archangel (if one sees Marines as Angels). Even in Chapters that claim to not be religious (self-deception I say), the Primarchs still occupy a position of reverence beyond that of any normal human High Lord. If anyone in the 40K era could claim to have an idea of the Emperor's intent and will, it would be a Primarch, who interacted with a living walking Emperor.

There's an assumption here that the upper management of the Imperium has the faintest idea what's going on anywhere else. Like all leaders of large organisations, they'll have the vaguest of ideas what's going on in places and make decisions based on information that's fed to them by a long chain of people.

Given the sheer scale of the Imperium, and the bureaucracy they've perfected, I can absolutely see Astartes chapters doing basically whatever it is they want for a long time before anyone bats an eyelid. Beyond stuff that's immediately traitorous of course.

Sure, the lag time in communication and travel mean real time control of far flung worlds is impossible. However apparently Guilliman went around in person. Primarchs are more than simply government guys or Marine superhero+++. Any Chapter faced with a resurrected Primarch is going to find it hard if not impossible to give a total refusal to an effective physical demigod that occupies a place analogous to an Archangel, in claiming to know the will of the God(-Emperor). Chapters might covertly or passive aggressively sideline the Primaris marines after superficially accepting them, but I see it hard for any Chapter to outright refuse (let alone directly insult Guilliman to his face).

That very religious reverence is where I see Guilliman falling victim to temptation or failing in his reform, in the sense that I think he will take advantage of his revered status to try and ram changes through the ossified structure of the Imperium. However he also then succumbs to not trying to dismantle the religion of the Imperium because it is "useful" to him.

Now I know it's probably written somewhere, but I have a very difficult time believing that Guilliman went round in person to even a quarter of the Marine chapters that exist. Given how mindbogglingly large the galaxy is, how many Marines chapters there are, where those chapters are situated, and how long he's had to do it (all the while running a Crusade as well) I just can't see him personally visiting any chapter unless they just so happened to be in the path of his crusade. Doesn't make the slightest bit of sense. Not that that stops fluff writers on occasion, but it's just not physically possible in the couple of hundred years Guilliman's had to do it.

I do get your point about Guilliman being a mythical figure to pretty much all Astartes simply by dint of being a Primarch though. Even if he wasn't their Primarch, he's still a figure of utter reverence in the Imperium's history.

Saying that, there's oodles of reasons chapters could be suspicious enough of him and his reforms to reject them. Just because he's a figure of myth, doesn't mean he's universally respected. Especially by the descendants of other Legions who have a grudge to bear against the Ultramarines/something to fear by accepting new blood.

 Geifer wrote:
In a nutshell: Imperial Fists successor who blame Guilliman for not being there for the defense of Terra, then splitting up their legion so that no one would wield the kind of power Horus had. Then taking over the Imperium with a loyal, almost intact legion backing him and acting like the savior of the Imperium.

That didn't go down well with them. I'm sure you can see how his return playing out similarly won't be greeted well either.

Seems liek a solid and believable reason to dislike the Ultramarines to me

From the dark imperium book, looks like the primaris themselves want to join their respective chapters, the book makes it clear that they are of the gene-stock of their primarchs. At the end of the Crusade(As Guilliman prepares to return to the ultramar systems to deal with Mortarion) The remaining Greyshields(Primaris not assigned to chapters, of mixed backgrounds and geneseeds) are being divided up and sent off to existing/new chapters, but not all are happy with their new lot.

BrianDavion wrote:

GodDamUser wrote:
I do love all of the original legion marine players thinking that their chapter wont take in Primus.. when it has been established that they all have =D

yup, we know FOR A FACT space wolf and dark angel primaris marines exist.

GW dark angels do, but my dark angels will be following established fluff and not be including any, gw can force them into the fluff of any chapter bar dark angels, it doesn't fit them at all.

Even more so as it raises other questions, where are all the centurions at? Storm ravens? Etc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And pre heresy gear? The ONE chapter that should have them in abundance has none, it's silly

My homebrew chapter doesn't like anyone, but unlike people saying that the Ultramarines can "suck it", keeping the crumbling Imperium together is more important than being spiteful for the sake of being spiteful. They'll likely be used like tools, like any alliances outside their chapter.

My Lamenters probably wouldn't be offered any, as Marneus Calgar doesn't like them and he'd probbaly have a word in Girlyman's shell-like.

My Astra Claws stopped existing before Primaris Marines started existing.

My small numbers of Executioners and Mantis Warriors would probably welcome them, but I doubt I'll get any myself.

I might create a chapter of Primaris Marines called The Kodiaks.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
My homebrew chapter doesn't like anyone, but unlike people saying that the Ultramarines can "suck it", keeping the crumbling Imperium together is more important than being spiteful for the sake of being spiteful. They'll likely be used like tools, like any alliances outside their chapter.

It's not that they get dumped on a landfill. They can still die for the Emperor, as long as they do it somewhere else.

Just to depart from one's personal opinion on how one's own chapter is going to handle things, does it even matter if a chapter declines taking Primaris?

Sure, I think it was in one of GW's articles that they said all but a few chapters accept, which I think we can all agree is a marketing move into which the integrity of the background didn't enter. But are there even enough Primaris to go around? I seem to remember the numbers 20,000 or 100,000 for the Indomitus Crusade, Can anybody chime in on these numbers?

The point is, if Guilliman had a 100,000 Primaris he could send a sample to each chapter and ask them to put their orders in by Friday afternoon. Orders capped at a company because there aren't enough to go around.

It seems to me like it's not a big deal if a chapter refuses because that just means another chapter gets an additional company of Primaris. And considering that GW did their best to deplete established chapters before 8th ed, there's no shortage in demand from the big chapters.

Man i dont even know how centurion suits fit into the codex form let alone primarus.

has there actually been any fluff so far regarding how they are integrated?

My Blood Angels will take anything they can get after nearly losing Baal.

 nerdfest09 wrote:
I'm kind of pleased on a personal level I don't love the Primaris marines, they look good but I really don't want them in my army or for an army which is great considering my current army is the Minotaurs, attack dogs of the High Lords of Terra! always looking to prove themselves against greater foes, the Primaris will be a great reason to lay some smack down! not to mention Lord Asterion is already bigger than those little guys! ;-) the story arc between the High Lords and the Minotaurs could really expand into the wider universe if it gets deeper into the secrets.

See, I don't exactly agree.

I see the Minotaurs (My favorite chapter) using whatever tool they can in order to get the job done. They have access to the best of the best and will use the best they have to snuff out traitors and purge the xenos plague.

I do hope they decide to expand on the Minotaurs. I've been patiently waiting for the day Forgeworld puts out a codex for them. (I know, slim chances there)

 Desubot wrote:
Man i dont even know how centurion suits fit into the codex form let alone primarus.

has there actually been any fluff so far regarding how they are integrated?

none yet, I imagine those questions will be answered later. generally I suspect it'll vary a little and we'll see 4 distinct approuches.

1st: will be the rare chapters that just don't use Primaris Marines. these are gonna be rare, and not really covered by GW, but if you decide your chapter doesn't have Primaris well you continue on like always.
2: Chapters that Intergrate their Primaris Marines into their existing company structure, an intercessor squad replacing a tatical squad etc.
this'll proably be pretty common. and in the short term, be the most common method of deployment.
3: Primaris Companies: entire companies of Primaris Marines will be formed, (it's worth noting Gulliman seems to have revised the codex to allow at least one more company) as part of a mixed chapter.
4: Primaris pure chapters.


I suspect we'll see examples of each (except the first GW wants to sell Primaris Marines after all) . with mixed companies, at least for the moment, being the current standard.

For the Crimson Fists? Yes please, every bolter counts. My Flesh Tearers? Seth would probably think that's a bad idea. You know, witnesses, occasional fratricide. The new guys might not have the team spirit.
My Alpha Legion would be even now ambushing the new chapters to test thier mettle and trying to work infiltrators into Cawl's laboratory.

 Brotherjulian wrote:
My Flesh Tearers? Seth would probably think that's a bad idea. You know, witnesses, occasional fratricide. The new guys might not have the team spirit.

Flesh Tearers have been wanting to get rid of their 'Team Sprit' for years... since you know that Sprit tends to make them go cray cray quicker then they can be replaced

My 10k pts of Dark Angels have decided not to allow Primaris Marines among their ranks. They have not been privy to the hunt and cannot be trusted with inner circle secrets. I am excited to start collecting a whole new army of Primaris Imperial Fists however now to decide on yellow or blue.

My Deathwatch would accept any primaris marines that prove themselves worthy to join up in the fight against the xenos


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Also my alpha legion will probabaly brain wash a bunch of the ultrasmurfs ones so that the colour scheme is easy to change and to annoy the smurfs