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Iron Mike wrote:
I'm not sure how the official lore will treat this, but (my) Pedro Kantor will be furious.

You've secretly had VII Legion gene-seed this whole fething time? You fully knew that almost every single one of our battle-brothers were lost. The Crimson Fists of the Second Founding, chosen by Dorn himself, were nearly eradicated.

While we stared into oblivion and feared (yes, feared) for the future of our entire chapter, you were buried in a fething forgeworld somewhere sitting on stockpiles of Dorn's blood. HERESY. You knew our loses yet withheld our birthright. HERESY. You tinkered and spliced with the most sacred relic to an Astartes, the gene-seed of their Primarch, hoping you could surpass the designs of the Emperor of Mankind. HERESY.

We don't want your fething gift. They weren't born around Rynn's World. They didn't pass our trials. They haven't plunged their left gauntlet. They weren't bleeding on the walls, they weren't hewn at the gates, and they can't recite the Oath of Rynn. Everyone involved with this betrayal of our chapter will be put to the fist, and unless every last VII Legion gland is returned to the rightful Sons of Dorn, even Guilliman himself may suddenly feel quite sleepy again...

(That's my take on Pedro's response!)

Holy gak some realism! Hell yeah this is brilliant.

 Melissia wrote:
But that doesn't mean the non-ultramarine chapters will see it that way. Nor do they have to. Them being offended and angered by this is WELL within the nature of 40k's setting.

except as I said being pissed off over this is reidculcas given that using geneseed to create new space marine foundings is....... pretty normal.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
But that doesn't mean the non-ultramarine chapters will see it that way. Nor do they have to. Them being offended and angered by this is WELL within the nature of 40k's setting.

except as I said being pissed off over this is reidculcas given that using geneseed to create new space marine foundings is....... pretty normal.

It's less that the giving of geneseed is normal, it's the sitting on vast banks of it doing nothing but tinkering with it.

Marine Chapters know that they (often reluctantly) have to send geneseed to found new chapters. They don't know that it sits in a vault doing sweet FA for however long it takes to get founded (or, in this case, being chopped up and meddled with by an Arch-Heretic who thinks he can do better than the God-Emperor of Mankind). As far as they're aware, the rest of the Imperium is working full tilt just for survival just like they are. I'd sure as hell be angry if I was working flat out and I found out my boss was doing nothing but making towers of cards out of the reports I'd been giving them.

Now scale that up to a life-or-death total-war fight-for-survival scenario and they'd have every right to be angry.

Hmmm, how about this. You're a soldier. You're also a blacksmith. When you're not fighting, you spend your time making arms and armour as you're required to by law. If you don't, your superiors get very, very angry. You can't use these arms and armour for your own underequipped troops, it goes off to a central store to equip new regiments to fight in other important places. Then, you find out that the vast majority of your arms and armour actually gets stuck in a great vault doing absolutely nothing while your friends are dying because theirs is broken, missing or didn't exist in the first place. Or, rather, it's not just sitting there. It's actualyl there on the orders of some other blacksmith who spends his time taking it apart, changing a rivet or two and putting it back together, just to see whether it works better.

Yes there's an argument to be made that making your armour better would help you win the war, but from where you're standing there's someone who's hoarding all of the arms and armour you need to actually fight properly, and everyone you know and care about is dying because of it.

BrianDavion wrote:

Iron Mike wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Iron Mike wrote:
I'm not sure how the official lore will treat this, but (my) Pedro Kantor will be furious.

You've secretly had VII Legion gene-seed this whole fething time? You fully knew that almost every single one of our battle-brothers were lost. The Crimson Fists of the Second Founding, chosen by Dorn himself, were nearly eradicated.

While we stared into oblivion and feared (yes, feared) for the future of our entire chapter, you were buried in a fething forgeworld somewhere sitting on stockpiles of Dorn's blood. HERESY. You knew our loses yet withheld our birthright. HERESY. You tinkered and spliced with the most sacred relic to an Astartes, the gene-seed of their Primarch, hoping you could surpass the designs of the Emperor of Mankind. HERESY.

We don't want your fething gift. They weren't born around Rynn's World. They didn't pass our trials. They haven't plunged their left gauntlet. They weren't bleeding on the walls, they weren't hewn at the gates, and they can't recite the Oath of Rynn. Everyone involved with this betrayal of our chapter will be put to the fist, and unless every last VII Legion gland is returned to the rightful Sons of Dorn, even Guilliman himself may suddenly feel quite sleepy again...

(That's my take on Pedro's response!)

except Pedro KNEW THEY HAD IT, keeping some of the tithed geneseed for new foundings is how they've done it for ten thousand years

He knew of the tithed gene-seed needed to ensure the future of the Adeptus Astartes as a whole, but he didn't know that some reclusive Martian tech-mage was hoarding hidden, undocumented LEGIONS worth for <insert any reason here really, they all pale in comparison to replenishing an entire Second Founding chapter.> What if Guilliman wasn't revived? Not an abstract line of thinking, since he'd been dead for 10 000 fething years. He would have just kept "researching" for eternity while the Crimson Fists teetered on the brink. Tithed gene-seed is an understandable necessity, a colossal cache of stolen gene-seed is an exterminatus-level heresy. It was given to Cawl by Guilliman? Wrong primarch melon-fether. He was NEVER our "spiritual liege" and Dorn's genetics were NEVER his to give, least of all to some unknown data-spitting servo-abomination a millennia ago.

(Pedro sure does seem upset!)

Actually he has every right to use that gene seed. Gulliman did not insistute this program as "Primarch of the Ultramarines" he did it as Lord Commander of the Imperium and heads of the Lords of Terra. as Such Gulliman is well within his rights to order gene seed produced for a new founding. prior to the Ultama founding there where 26 seperate space Marine foundings. all produced the same way, with limited numbers of geneseed being used to produce MORE geneseed.

Ah, but when he DID order the program 10 000 years ago, at the time he was in fact just "Primarch of the Ultramarines." He split the Legions so no one person could hold the power and clout that Horus did, but then he gets revived and names himself "Lord Commander (Warmaster?..) of the Imperium" and has an entire legion at his disposal. The ends do not justify the means. At the time he procured the gene-seed of his brothers and gave them to that Martian, he completely overstepped himself. Again, he never was, and never will be, our primarch.

This load of rubbish will never see my tabletop

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
But that doesn't mean the non-ultramarine chapters will see it that way. Nor do they have to. Them being offended and angered by this is WELL within the nature of 40k's setting.

except as I said being pissed off over this is reidculcas given that using geneseed to create new space marine foundings is....... pretty normal.

It's less that the giving of geneseed is normal, it's the sitting on vast banks of it doing nothing but tinkering with it.

Marine Chapters know that they (often reluctantly) have to send geneseed to found new chapters. They don't know that it sits in a vault doing sweet FA for however long it takes to get founded (or, in this case, being chopped up and meddled with by an Arch-Heretic who thinks he can do better than the God-Emperor of Mankind). As far as they're aware, the rest of the Imperium is working full tilt just for survival just like they are. I'd sure as hell be angry if I was working flat out and I found out my boss was doing nothing but making towers of cards out of the reports I'd been giving them.

Now scale that up to a life-or-death total-war fight-for-survival scenario and they'd have every right to be angry.

Hmmm, how about this. You're a soldier. You're also a blacksmith. When you're not fighting, you spend your time making arms and armour as you're required to by law. If you don't, your superiors get very, very angry. You can't use these arms and armour for your own underequipped troops, it goes off to a central store to equip new regiments to fight in other important places. Then, you find out that the vast majority of your arms and armour actually gets stuck in a great vault doing absolutely nothing while your friends are dying because theirs is broken, missing or didn't exist in the first place. Or, rather, it's not just sitting there. It's actualyl there on the orders of some other blacksmith who spends his time taking it apart, changing a rivet or two and putting it back together, just to see whether it works better.

Yes there's an argument to be made that making your armour better would help you win the war, but from where you're standing there's someone who's hoarding all of the arms and armour you need to actually fight properly, and everyone you know and care about is dying because of it.

Great analogy. Tithed gene-seed is recognized and honoured by each chapter because they know it is meant as a fail-safe to ensure the future of the Adeptus Astartes as a whole. Your uncle secretly taking your inheritance after your dad died and giving it to his accountant to keep until he gets off on parole, then giving you a piece when he comes home, however, is HERESY.

Iron Mike wrote:

Ah, but when he DID order the program 10 000 years ago, at the time he was in fact just "Primarch of the Ultramarines." He split the Legions so no one person could hold the power and clout that Horus did, but then he gets revived and names himself "Lord Commander (Warmaster?..) of the Imperium" and has an entire legion at his disposal. The ends do not justify the means. At the time he procured the gene-seed of his brothers and gave them to that Martian, he completely overstepped himself. Again, he never was, and never will be, our primarch.

Knock out!

 jeff white wrote:

Iron Mike wrote:

Ah, but when he DID order the program 10 000 years ago, at the time he was in fact just "Primarch of the Ultramarines." He split the Legions so no one person could hold the power and clout that Horus did, but then he gets revived and names himself "Lord Commander (Warmaster?..) of the Imperium" and has an entire legion at his disposal. The ends do not justify the means. At the time he procured the gene-seed of his brothers and gave them to that Martian, he completely overstepped himself. Again, he never was, and never will be, our primarch.

Knock out!

As a Blood Angels player, I approve.

Sanguinius died for your sins, Robby G. Don't you ever fething forget that. Even upon His throne, the Emperor favors his fabulous fething hawkboy for a reason.

We'll aim for the knees, try to get some live specimens for Fabius Bile.

 lindsay40k wrote:
We'll aim for the knees, try to get some live specimens for Fabius Bile.

Haha perfect

Send down some of the astartes grade sleep darts and make sure to warm up the hypno indoctrination gear we've got a long day ahead of us and if the rumors are true they won't stay asleep for as long as the others hydra dominatus brother....- intercepted messages from alpha legion strike squad head 6 to strike cruiser serpents venom......



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You actually make a good point. Why wouldn't you just mass clone the Smurfmaster, or the SpAzzEmprah for that matter? Or even better dig up the best naval officers and Solar Macharius and go to town? We know they have the cloning technology ( remember the Imperial Guard clone troops?)

They actually, before all this primaris stuff tried to clone the imperiums greatest human heroes and make an imperial guard regiment out of them, but they turned out pretty average, aside from the copious amounts of bad luck they were cursed with, like the cursed founding but for imperial guard.

 Melissia wrote:

 jeff white wrote:

Iron Mike wrote:

Ah, but when he DID order the program 10 000 years ago, at the time he was in fact just "Primarch of the Ultramarines." He split the Legions so no one person could hold the power and clout that Horus did, but then he gets revived and names himself "Lord Commander (Warmaster?..) of the Imperium" and has an entire legion at his disposal. The ends do not justify the means. At the time he procured the gene-seed of his brothers and gave them to that Martian, he completely overstepped himself. Again, he never was, and never will be, our primarch.

Knock out!

As a Blood Angels player, I approve.

Sanguinius died for your sins, Robby G. Don't you ever fething forget that. Even upon His throne, the Emperor favors his fabulous fething hawkboy for a reason.

you approval of people being factually incorrect? Gulliman was Lord Commander of the Imperium and head of the Lords of Terra following the Battle of Terra. a fact that's pretty well known.

And?

I think the idea that everyone would just bow to robooty's whims and be happy joyous dancing time at everything he does is ridiculous. This is 40k. This is the Imperium. The Imperium fights itself almost half as much as it fights everyone else.

 Melissia wrote:
And?

I think the idea that everyone would just bow to robooty's whims and be happy joyous dancing time at everything he does is ridiculous. This is 40k. This is the Imperium. The Imperium fights itself almost half as much as it fights everyone else.

While it is true that not everyone liked or agreed with Lord Commander Girlyman, it is also true that no matter how much they disagreed, they always obeyed him in the end. Even Dorn and Russ bowed down to Guilliman in the end (after almost causing a second civil war, but still). In the present day of 40k, I see it being much the same. The Imperium has loads of internal strife and conflict, but no one wants a full-on civil war. That is why in the end Guilliman always gets his way.


Also, I can definitely see people like Kantor and other leaders of chapters that suffered heavily being very, very angry at Cawl and Guilliman having kept all this geneseed a secret. Simultaneously however, I can imagine the anger would be soothed a lot by all of the new stuff and reinforcements they are now getting as a result. I imagine Kantor feeling very conflicted over this (please GW write something about this it is awesome novel material).

BrianDavion wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 jeff white wrote:

Iron Mike wrote:

Ah, but when he DID order the program 10 000 years ago, at the time he was in fact just "Primarch of the Ultramarines." He split the Legions so no one person could hold the power and clout that Horus did, but then he gets revived and names himself "Lord Commander (Warmaster?..) of the Imperium" and has an entire legion at his disposal. The ends do not justify the means. At the time he procured the gene-seed of his brothers and gave them to that Martian, he completely overstepped himself. Again, he never was, and never will be, our primarch.

Knock out!

As a Blood Angels player, I approve.

Sanguinius died for your sins, Robby G. Don't you ever fething forget that. Even upon His throne, the Emperor favors his fabulous fething hawkboy for a reason.

you approval of people being factually incorrect? Gulliman was Lord Commander of the Imperium and head of the Lords of Terra following the Battle of Terra. a fact that's pretty well known.

Of course he was pivotal in securing the safety of the Imperium after the Heresy, and the Astartes are supposed to be granted autonomy to do as they see fit for the good of the Imperium, but not from each other. "High Lord" Guilliman was a rallying point and leader for the non-Astartes Imperium, but to the Astartes he was just a still-living Primarch marshalling the frightened masses. Were his intentions noble? Absolutely, no one could dispute that, and he should be commended for taking on that burden. He was always the best suited of the Primarchs to lead all of humanity. But humanity and his "nephew" Astartes are two completely different things. The death of a primarch does not leave his sons up for adoption to just be commanded by one still breathing. Had he actually been at the Siege, perhaps there'd have been a few more still-living Primarchs. But he wasn't, and there weren't. Guilliman became Lord Commander of the Imperium; Rogal Dorn and his sons are not the Imperium. They of course took instruction from the primarch best suited for the situation, but that NEVER gave Guilliman the right to no longer need answer his brother primarchs. Brothers, commrades, allies, even friends; never "lord" and "subject." Ever. And even though some non-Battle-Brothers sitting in a room on Terra waggled their chins and gave him a shiny new title to steer the teeming masses of humans, Roboute, the Primarch of the Not-Sons-of-Dorn, should never have hidden such an important thing like the Primaris project from his fellow Astartes. For him to think he didn't need to tell them, is betrayal.


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And I don't mean to sound rude, I just love talking about this stuff I play Crimson Fists, btw.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

Also, I can definitely see people like Kantor and other leaders of chapters that suffered heavily being very, very angry at Cawl and Guilliman having kept all this geneseed a secret. Simultaneously however, I can imagine the anger would be soothed a lot by all of the new stuff and reinforcements they are now getting as a result. I imagine Kantor feeling very conflicted over this (please GW write something about this it is awesome novel material).

Pedro may also demand answers from the Inquisition, for whom the Crimson Fists have long been a voluntary sword for. Either they knew and were hiding it from him, or they didn't know and are incompetent.

If it's the former, and were still gladly accepting Crimson Fists to the Deathwatch even though they knew his chapter was crippled but he felt honour-bound to help, perhaps he just demands the Deathwatch, period. If it's the latter, then the most distasteful act in his chapter's history (the eradication of the Marines Vigilant) was done at the behest of some paranoid, detached, fanatical bureaucrats that will sign anything to keep their positions and have no idea what's actually going on.

Especially if the Inquisition claims they didn't know, but still just allows the Primaris thing to slide. Pedro himself may have a few questions to those whom normally only ever ask them...

Eeeeh, I think it was really Sanguinius that was best suited to lead humanity. Robooty was really best off as a bureaucrat and manager.

Canis has led a couple packs of thunderwolf cavalry and some wolf packs against the Primaris that tried to join them.. the wolves now feast on their bones. a pack of my grey hunters were nearby and didnt even get engaged as they retrieved the relic.

 Melissia wrote:
Eeeeh, I think it was really Sanguinius that was best suited to lead humanity. Robooty was really best off as a bureaucrat and manager.

Sanguinius would be the perfect role-model, giving humanity hope as they strive to emulate him, and parents would tell their children not to worry because they (literally) have an Arch-Angel protecting them. But I just can't see him sitting in the Administratum on Terra signing data-slates and attending chair meetings.

Roboute, on the other hand, would be better at making the hard decisions that come with running a galactic empire. Plus, he seems sincerely interested in the minutiae of governance and political discourse, which Sanguinius would probably see as a boring duty to be fulfilled. He'd do great in parades, however.

Iron Mike wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Eeeeh, I think it was really Sanguinius that was best suited to lead humanity. Robooty was really best off as a bureaucrat and manager.

Sanguinius would be the perfect role-model, giving humanity hope as they strive to emulate him, and parents would tell their children not to worry because they (literally) have an Arch-Angel protecting them. But I just can't see him sitting in the Administratum on Terra signing data-slates and attending chair meetings.

Roboute, on the other hand, would be better at making the hard decisions that come with running a galactic empire. Plus, he seems sincerely interested in the minutiae of governance and political discourse, which Sanguinius would probably see as a boring duty to be fulfilled. He'd do great in parades, however.

yeah Sanguinis may have made a great figure head with Gulliman being a better "power behind the throne" *looks to Imperium Secondius* seems even they agreed with that

 Cothonian wrote:
In regards to the topic's original question: Heresy!

My Marines would see as some sort of mistake, as the Astartes are clearly the purest and most powerful warriors of the Imperium. These so called "Primaris" are clearly imposters, or worse.



I actually do like the models, most of them anyway. Very imposing in terms of appearance.

Fluff wise, I would like to see a civil war break out within the Imperium, with Roboute leading one side, and the Administratum leading the other (all I could think of when Roboute came out was all the Imperial higher-ups who would react badly, realizing that their places in the upper echelons of Imperial society are at risk!)

Horus Heresy 2: Electric Boogaloo.

I think for Dark Angels the initial run from Mars will forever be left out of the Inner Circle, but anyone else will be treated as just another marine. They just might use Gravis instead of Terminator for Deathwing, and Aggressor (I think that's what the flying mini heavy bolter guys are called) instead of bikes in the Ravenwing.

Iron Mike wrote:


Ah, but when he DID order the program 10 000 years ago, at the time he was in fact just "Primarch of the Ultramarines." He split the Legions so no one person could hold the power and clout that Horus did, but then he gets revived and names himself "Lord Commander (Warmaster?..) of the Imperium" and has an entire legion at his disposal. The ends do not justify the means. At the time he procured the gene-seed of his brothers and gave them to that Martian, he completely overstepped himself. Again, he never was, and never will be, our primarch.

Except when he was named Lord Commander he still had other Primarchs around, Dorn in particular was around. Dorn a staunchly loyal brother, who relized that Guilliman was right to divide the Legions and as a Primarch very well could have known that Guilliman was starting work on the Primaris.

My Imperial Fists successor, the Sons of Volundr, will be suspicious of the Primaris marines at first. They were in the process of building up well beyond chapter strength, so more eyes on them wasn't what they wanted. The newcomers will be split among the companies that are under strength, and those companies will be kept apart from the main chapter until loyalty can be assured.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

Iron Mike wrote:


Ah, but when he DID order the program 10 000 years ago, at the time he was in fact just "Primarch of the Ultramarines." He split the Legions so no one person could hold the power and clout that Horus did, but then he gets revived and names himself "Lord Commander (Warmaster?..) of the Imperium" and has an entire legion at his disposal. The ends do not justify the means. At the time he procured the gene-seed of his brothers and gave them to that Martian, he completely overstepped himself. Again, he never was, and never will be, our primarch.

Except when he was named Lord Commander he still had other Primarchs around, Dorn in particular was around. Dorn a staunchly loyal brother, who relized that Guilliman was right to divide the Legions and as a Primarch very well could have known that Guilliman was starting work on the Primaris.

indeed, for all we know the next loyalst primarch to return will look upon the primaris marines, turn to Gulliman and say "hey awesome! I see our little project has born fruit"

Hatachi wrote:
I think for Dark Angels the initial run from Mars will forever be left out of the Inner Circle, but anyone else will be treated as just another marine. They just might use Gravis instead of Terminator for Deathwing, and Aggressor (I think that's what the flying mini heavy bolter guys are called) instead of bikes in the Ravenwing.

Yeah. I think that's fair. They never trust a Martian born marine in the inner circle beyond maybe its very lowest levels at most.
The Primus captains not have a higher lever slot like there regular brothers.

BrianDavion wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

Iron Mike wrote:


Ah, but when he DID order the program 10 000 years ago, at the time he was in fact just "Primarch of the Ultramarines." He split the Legions so no one person could hold the power and clout that Horus did, but then he gets revived and names himself "Lord Commander (Warmaster?..) of the Imperium" and has an entire legion at his disposal. The ends do not justify the means. At the time he procured the gene-seed of his brothers and gave them to that Martian, he completely overstepped himself. Again, he never was, and never will be, our primarch.

Except when he was named Lord Commander he still had other Primarchs around, Dorn in particular was around. Dorn a staunchly loyal brother, who relized that Guilliman was right to divide the Legions and as a Primarch very well could have known that Guilliman was starting work on the Primaris.

indeed, for all we know the next loyalst primarch to return will look upon the primaris marines, turn to Gulliman and say "hey awesome! I see our little project has born fruit"

I'd be much happier with "Traitor you're under arrest".

pm713 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

Iron Mike wrote:


Ah, but when he DID order the program 10 000 years ago, at the time he was in fact just "Primarch of the Ultramarines." He split the Legions so no one person could hold the power and clout that Horus did, but then he gets revived and names himself "Lord Commander (Warmaster?..) of the Imperium" and has an entire legion at his disposal. The ends do not justify the means. At the time he procured the gene-seed of his brothers and gave them to that Martian, he completely overstepped himself. Again, he never was, and never will be, our primarch.

Except when he was named Lord Commander he still had other Primarchs around, Dorn in particular was around. Dorn a staunchly loyal brother, who relized that Guilliman was right to divide the Legions and as a Primarch very well could have known that Guilliman was starting work on the Primaris.

indeed, for all we know the next loyalst primarch to return will look upon the primaris marines, turn to Gulliman and say "hey awesome! I see our little project has born fruit"

I'd be much happier with "Traitor you're under arrest".

eh apparently the IoM immediatly started going to $!$!# after Gulliman was lost. his brother primarchs would thus likely be glad he's "back in the saddle"

The Imperium went to gak the moment Horus decided to be a bad boy.

 Melissia wrote:
The Imperium went to gak the moment Horus decided to be a bad boy.

true but apparently Gulliman's presence was a stablizing influence. Fulgrim basicly notes the whole trap where he "slew" Gulliman was staged because they knew without Gulliman's stablizing influence the IoM would slide further.

Yeah which is why his "presence" almost caused a civil war after the end of the Horus Heresy.

Fulgrim's an idiot.