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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Ute nation

Question, Can we make the deceiver bomb work now. With 2 CP a monolith can pull three units to it, 2 from tomb world deploy and 1 from somewhere on the board. With extras on GI We could also grab a nightscythe for an additional unit, or more likely just bring along something for shooting. Then you can veil another unit in. Mephrit could do warriors and immortals for short range gun fights, Novokh could just go all in on getting into CC.

Necrons - 4k
Dark angels - 2k


"You know what they say about brute force, if it's not working you are not using enough of it" 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Perfected Haemonculi Living Sculpture






Drakmord wrote:
An Overlord with Implacable Conqueror and the Veil of Darkness, with 20 Flayed Ones. MWBD, +1 to Charge distance, and re-roll charges. Inexpensive and a good chance to make it in.


Nice combo mate, I like it. a rerollable 8" charge is really good odds.

Haha, btw Anarkyr has implacable conqueror. So if you combo him with deceiver you can cheat him up then veil them in so not only would they get the reroll on the 8" charge but he would be giving them that bonus attack. Thats actually something I am gona have to try.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Grimgold wrote:
Question, Can we make the deceiver bomb work now. With 2 CP a monolith can pull three units to it, 2 from tomb world deploy and 1 from somewhere on the board. With extras on GI We could also grab a nightscythe for an additional unit, or more likely just bring along something for shooting. Then you can veil another unit in. Mephrit could do warriors and immortals for short range gun fights, Novokh could just go all in on getting into CC.


Thats a fun idea I would just be concerned with how much punch you are gona be able to get blowing ~600 points before you even take a unit to pop out. Since you need the CP's for all that your options are run no battalions and burn all your CP's turn 1 on deployment for killier stuff, or take pre requisits and end up with not enough points to pull killy things through. It may be possible but you will need to run a super elite force.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/03/13 05:22:40


   
Made in us
Freaky Flayed One




Red Corsair wrote:
Nice combo mate, I like it. a rerollable 8" charge is really good odds.


Thank you. It's hard to give up the WL trait for it, personally, as I want to be spending CP on Destroyers, and the 33% chance of getting them back is alluring, but in exchange you get a reliable horde clearer.

Grimgold wrote:Question, Can we make the deceiver bomb work now. With 2 CP a monolith can pull three units to it, 2 from tomb world deploy and 1 from somewhere on the board. With extras on GI We could also grab a nightscythe for an additional unit, or more likely just bring along something for shooting. Then you can veil another unit in. Mephrit could do warriors and immortals for short range gun fights, Novokh could just go all in on getting into CC.


The Deceiver bomb just costs too much to initiate Turn 1 charges. I don't think Mephrit needs to be in Solar Fury range instantly in order to be worthwhile -- achieving it on Turn 2 is fine, if you can invest the points into more guns.

It's different for Novokh, as you want to get stuck in as fast as possible. For Novokh I would use only the Deceiver and Monolith, along with your Warlord carrying Indomitable Will and the Veil. This gets you 4 assault units into charge range, with a 6" reroll charge aura on your Warlord.

I would back a Novokh bomb with either powerful guns -- DDA's or TArks from another Dynasty -- or more, non-assault deep strikers like Nephrekh Destroyers.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/13 05:36:04


 
   
Made in se
Dakka Veteran





 Red Corsair wrote:
I can't stand the double standard that happens whenever someone complains as well


Sorry for having an opinion.

Not sure if having differing opinions is a reason to start with ad hominems however.
(Since I'm a pretty casual player, I consider being called a WAAC-player both extremely funny and insulting at the same time.)

Anyway, let's move on...

5000 pts
5500 pts
6500 pts
8500 pts
10.000 pts
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Ute nation

 Red Corsair wrote:


Apparently you have never been counter charged by a fething rhino or some other light vehicle. Wraiths were so laughably counter-able prior to the new ability it was a joke. The fall back and assault ability is insanely useful. Turn 1 advance and charge. Turn two RP strat the unit with hopefully a conoptek cloker nearby and then fall back towards their vanguard and tie down as many things as possible. Being able to move straight passed screens so you can shut down shooty units is a big deal.

Any unit that can kill the wraiths needs to be shot, better yet you can always leave shoot the bastards and then recharge them every turn. Spread sheets are useful, but you can't grade every unit on a spread sheet. Several units have abilities or stratagems that stack to make things hit harder, survive longer, or be more flexible.


Six wraiths have a decent shot at taking a rhino down in a single round so that's kind of a bad example. However I get it, if your wraiths are unsupported you could get tarpitted, not anymore though, which is great. However being more costly makes them even more vulnerable to mortal wounds, which was already a significant problem for them. In fact I doubt you'll find many better targets for smite than units that will be in your face on the first turn and have a 3++.

Prior to the change wraiths were on the bubble offensively, because they were inefficient. There were always better units, many of them ranged and thus much easier to use. So their role was tarpitting, they could get behind enemy lines and annoy the gak out of just about anything. Now they are more expensive, which means they are worse at tarpitting because the opportunity cost is higher. Because they are paying for multi damage melee attacks they need to be attacking vehicles and TEQ. Since TEQ are more or less a no show in competitive games, their role is now hunting vehicles in CC. Since necrons needed help in that area, maybe I'll change my mind on them.

Still, Winning exchanges is about efficiency, both offensive and defensive, and that is where spreadsheets shine. While winning exchanges won't automagically win you the game it sure does make it easier.

Necrons - 4k
Dark angels - 2k


"You know what they say about brute force, if it's not working you are not using enough of it" 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 MinscS2 wrote:
 Red Corsair wrote:
I can't stand the double standard that happens whenever someone complains as well


Sorry for having an opinion.

Not sure if having differing opinions is a reason to start with ad hominems however.
(Since I'm a pretty casual player, I consider being called a WAAC-player both extremely funny and insulting at the same time.)

Anyway, let's move on...

Well there IS a double standard that was being ignored.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in jp
Proud Triarch Praetorian





Waitwaitwait,
Exactly how many things can we potentially have in the opponent's backfield turn one?
• Deceiver + D3 units
• Veil HQ + 1 unit
• 1 strategem deep strike unit
• X units of Deathmarks
• X units of Flayed Ones
• X dropping Monoliths
• X zooming flyers
• ?????

(though, I guess even with just those, if they had some DDA support from your side that'd be a pretty formidable threat to deal with)

 
   
Made in fi
Freaky Flayed One





My thoughts on the Dynastic codes. Any other opinions?

Sautekh:
Treat all weapons as assault when advancing and heavy weapons ignore movement penalty.

This seems to be good for FW units. I don't use FW so I can't see any use of it.

Novokh:
Reroll failed to hit rolls in fight phase.

Might try this out in a detachment sometime just for fun.

Nihilakh
Reroll to hit rolls of 1 when not moving.

Doomsday Arks and...
... warriors/immortals on turn 2-3?

Mephrit
Add -1 AP at below half range.

So we will need to get all shooting within 12".
Tomb blades!!! Tesla weapons will obviously benefit from this.
Veiled/grand illusioned in Immortals and Warriors.
Deathmarks get a small boost.
Annihilation barges with 11 AP-1 tesla shots.
This is the way I play my Necrons so the Mephrit is for me. Too bad that their Relic and Warlord trait is meh. Their Stratagem (an additional hit roll at a natural 6) is ok i guess.

Nephrekh
Advance 6".

Might have it's uses in an Outrider Detachment. Like the deep strike Stratagem.
   
Made in fi
Jervis Johnson






 skoffs wrote:
Waitwaitwait,
Exactly how many things can we potentially have in the opponent's backfield turn one?
• Deceiver + D3 units
• Veil HQ + 1 unit
• 1 strategem deep strike unit
• X units of Deathmarks
• X units of Flayed Ones
• X dropping Monoliths
• X zooming flyers
• ?????

(though, I guess even with just those, if they had some DDA support from your side that'd be a pretty formidable threat to deal with)


Stratagems can be used as many times as you want during deployment, so all Nephrekh units can deep strike with the gem, assuming you have enough command points. Naturally you can deploy your Sautekh Hyperlogical Strategist first, so you can try to refund each of your CPs that you spend for deep striking.

Destroyers should automatically be Nephrekh because of this reason.

That said, I'm having trouble mixing and matching dynasties because MWBD only works on units with the same dynasty code, and likewise the Crypteks can only give the +1 RP or invulnerable saves to units with the same code as the Cryptek in question.

All in all the HQs (and of course elites) are a definite weak point. The crypteks are good but they're still a HQ tax that contributes nothing but a small bonus, but cost 5% of our overall points, each. Command Barges are decent, but we're still talking about a 170 point unit that again doesn't contribute in any meaningful way for a unit that expensive. We get a BS buff, and some minor firepower. A Tau Commander with 4 Fusion Blasters costs about the same as a CCB. A Custodes Shield Captain costs less. Troops are weak too, not because the stat line, but because 120 point mandatory troops choices just don't work well in this edition when you need to fill your detachments. 85 point Immortal units aren't much better. Tau, for comparison, do much better in this regard since the FW only cost 35 points per slot.

Deceiver gives something I think the army desperately needs, but he's expensive. Necrons have no real scouts or push back units, and even deep strike denial is a serious issue. Opponents who win the first turn will use RG/ADMech stratagems to infiltrate 18 Aggressors or 40 Electro Priests into close range and annihilate all of the infantry the Necrons have in the first turn alpha. How to alpha protect the Necron army? Most of the posters in this thread don't seem to care about things like that because opponents use Tactical Marines and Predators and what not (no offence). Likewise, I admit falling a little bit to the Mephrit Tomb Blade hype myself, but once I looked at my own Imperial army for a tournament next weekend, I realised I really don't want to go within 12" of most opponents. My Astra army has 3 Shield Captains, Celestine and 3 Assassins. I go anywhere within 20" or more of that with Tomb Blades, and they're all toast.

It's funny because Necrons have a ton of good strats, good traits, and some good relics, but the units are so expensive that the list is truly hard to make.

Right now the best I've come up with is 18 Destroyers, CCB, 2 Crypteks, 3 units of Immortals, Scarabs and a Tesseract Vault. But it doesn't exactly strike me as a fool proof tier 1 army right now. We'll see if one can even be made.


This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2018/03/13 10:28:41


 
   
Made in nl
One Canoptek Scarab in a Swarm




Holland

What do you guys think the best way to implement Praetorians is? Are they still worth it? They did get a point decrease and a cool strat, but without easy access to codes or other buffs, I'm trying to figure out if other options haven't surpassed them now... I've always really liked them. Especially the lore behind them, and a unit of 10 is very scary and maneuverable so i want to find a good spot for them in a few of my lists...

What about the Stalker? It could really use a Sautekh code or Nihilakh, but it doesn't (hopefully this will still change in the final version, but I'm not holding my breath). But then again, maybe it doesn't add as much utility as it used to, Since their are other ways to get that reroll 1 to hit now. It's still a nice semi-durable platform for a much needed anti-tank gun, but without the added utility, i'm not sure if it's not plain better every time to just take a few HDestroyers instead...

Thoughts?

- Power corrupts, Absolute power.... is a whole lot of fun...- 
   
Made in gb
Freaky Flayed One



United Kingdom

 skoffs wrote:
Waitwaitwait,
Exactly how many things can we potentially have in the opponent's backfield turn one?
• Deceiver + D3 units
• Veil HQ + 1 unit
• 1 strategem deep strike unit
• X units of Deathmarks
• X units of Flayed Ones
• X dropping Monoliths
• X zooming flyers
• ?????

(though, I guess even with just those, if they had some DDA support from your side that'd be a pretty formidable threat to deal with)


Ghostwalk Mantle?

I was going to ask actually, is there some new cheese we can accomplish with Nemesor Zahndrekh? I like Vargard Obyron more now he has an extra attack and is useful in his own right beyond the teleport now he confers rerolls of 1 to wound.

I'm thinking, give Zahndrekh the Veil of Darkness, teleport him and one unit within 9" of the enemy, then use the Ghostwalk Mantle to teleport Vargard Obyron and a nasty melee unit within 6" of NZ and 1" away from enemy models, practically guaranteeing a successful charge.

If MWBD is applied correctly, you could have Obyron and 10 Lychguard hitting on 2s, rerolling 1s to wound. If you use an extra CP, you could make the Lychguard Strength 8, at which point they'd be flat out killing Intercessors on 2s and rerolling wound rolls of 1.

The question for me is, do I take a shooty unit or a slashy unit with NZ and his veil of darkness? 20 Warriors? 10 Immortals? 6 Destroyers? Or just more Lychguard to get more melee in?
   
Made in nl
Regular Dakkanaut





 Nagerash wrote:


What about the Stalker? It could really use a Sautekh code or Nihilakh, but it doesn't (hopefully this will still change in the final version, but I'm not holding my breath). But then again, maybe it doesn't add as much utility as it used to, Since their are other ways to get that reroll 1 to hit now. It's still a nice semi-durable platform for a much needed anti-tank gun, but without the added utility, i'm not sure if it's not plain better every time to just take a few HDestroyers instead...

Thoughts?


The Stalker definitely has its uses. Both the Heat Ray (now 2D6 shots Dispersed) and the Twin Heavy Gauss Cannon (10 points decrease) got buffed.

It definitely has it's place in a Sauthekh army. If you REALLY need something killed, like a Primarch, you can use the Sautekh strategem + the Stalker for +1 to hit and rerolling 1's against that target.

I wouldn't bring it in a Nihilakh army though, since most of your anti-tank (destroyers, DDA's standing still) will already have reroll 1's.
   
Made in au
Fresh-Faced New User




dapperbandit wrote:
 skoffs wrote:
Waitwaitwait,
Exactly how many things can we potentially have in the opponent's backfield turn one?
• Deceiver + D3 units
• Veil HQ + 1 unit
• 1 strategem deep strike unit
• X units of Deathmarks
• X units of Flayed Ones
• X dropping Monoliths
• X zooming flyers
• ?????

(though, I guess even with just those, if they had some DDA support from your side that'd be a pretty formidable threat to deal with)


Ghostwalk Mantle?

I was going to ask actually, is there some new cheese we can accomplish with Nemesor Zahndrekh? I like Vargard Obyron more now he has an extra attack and is useful in his own right beyond the teleport now he confers rerolls of 1 to wound.

I'm thinking, give Zahndrekh the Veil of Darkness, teleport him and one unit within 9" of the enemy, then use the Ghostwalk Mantle to teleport Vargard Obyron and a nasty melee unit within 6" of NZ and 1" away from enemy models, practically guaranteeing a successful charge.

If MWBD is applied correctly, you could have Obyron and 10 Lychguard hitting on 2s, rerolling 1s to wound. If you use an extra CP, you could make the Lychguard Strength 8, at which point they'd be flat out killing Intercessors on 2s and rerolling wound rolls of 1.

The question for me is, do I take a shooty unit or a slashy unit with NZ and his veil of darkness? 20 Warriors? 10 Immortals? 6 Destroyers? Or just more Lychguard to get more melee in?


Special Characters can't have Relics.
   
Made in gb
Tail-spinning Tomb Blade Pilot



UK, Midlands

Bringing CP's is very difficult. I've been aiming for 8 ( Battalion and two 1CP detatchments) but it's not easy. The HQs are expensive and mostly geared toward sitting in the middle of a phalanx giving out buffs. 8 CP requires 4 HQs and I don't want 4 in any of my lists. The Dlord and CCB start to look appealing because they can kind of strike out on their own but they don't do anywhere near enough damage for their point cost.

The other problem is Troops. 5 man Tesla Immortals aren't bad but feel like a total tax unit. Full size units of Warriors and Immortals can be good with support but they are expensive.


So we've got expensive troops that need supporting HQs to do anything impressive, and expensive HQs that need to be near multiple units to be more than a tax. This means if you don't run a Phalanx formation your going to be going against the grain, and the troops and HQs will feel more like a tax.

Meanwhile we have loads of cool teleporting options that make you want to throw stuff into rapid fire range- but as soon as you start doing that you break up the troops from their supporting HQs.


I think the key to making good lists is going to be firstly about figuring out how to make good use of troops and HQs.

   
Made in nz
Dakka Veteran




 Nagerash wrote:
What do you guys think the best way to implement Praetorians is? Are they still worth it? They did get a point decrease and a cool strat, but without easy access to codes or other buffs, I'm trying to figure out if other options haven't surpassed them now... I've always really liked them. Especially the lore behind them, and a unit of 10 is very scary and maneuverable so i want to find a good spot for them in a few of my lists...

What about the Stalker? It could really use a Sautekh code or Nihilakh, but it doesn't (hopefully this will still change in the final version, but I'm not holding my breath). But then again, maybe it doesn't add as much utility as it used to, Since their are other ways to get that reroll 1 to hit now. It's still a nice semi-durable platform for a much needed anti-tank gun, but without the added utility, i'm not sure if it's not plain better every time to just take a few HDestroyers instead...

Thoughts?


Well it used to be you had to use Imotekh or Anrakyr to give them MWBD...now that they have the equivalent stratagem for +1 to hit, I think the benefit is just you can run them with zero support required and they do their thing. 30 points less for a full unit of ten at 320, only needing a 1 point Strategem the turn they hit combat isn't the worst.
   
Made in gb
Instigating Incubi




The dark behind the eyes.

 Red Corsair wrote:

Your missing my point however. I never claimed they were amazing.


Hence why I never said you did.

 Red Corsair wrote:
I can't stand the double standard that happens whenever someone complains as well. ]We all account for tesla immortals using dynastic codes and MWBD but when someone mentions the same buffs make FO considerably better somehow it's time to call it a crutch or disingenuous.


I don't understand why you bring this up, given that I specifically didn't use it in my comparison and then went into detail as to why I don't think it should be included.

To reiterate, I prefer that my units be self-sufficient, rather than needing HQ buffs to work. I know I need at least some HQs in my army, but I like to have some flexibility there (especially since I want to include as few as possible) - rather than having units that need a particular HQ to babysit them and them alone. I appreciate that this is just my personal preference, however.

 Red Corsair wrote:
Seriously, how hard is it to get Wave of command or MWBD off on a brick of 20 FO?


It's not about it being hard, it's about it being expensive. That's an extra ~170pts you're paying for that effect - 50% of what the entire squad costs. We're not just talking about a 30pt Company Commander here.

Also, your edit says that this is with Anrykar as well. You're throwing a hell of a lot of points into this one unit of Flayed Ones. Maybe it'll work, but it's too many eggs in one basket for my tastes.

 Red Corsair wrote:
So unlike warriors or Immortals, they are alpha strike safe and only need to make an 8" charge.


Since when was an 8" charge good odds? If they fail, then their alpha strike protection has gone down the toilet.

 Red Corsair wrote:
For that they average 78 hits. HITS. Show me what else in the book can get you 78 s4 hits for 340 points.


This is circular reasoning. Flayed Ones get 78 hits in melee (assuming none of them die first), so you're asking me to measure them by their own standard. What if I would rather have fewer hits with better Strength, AP and/or damage? What if I would rather have fewer hits but at range instead of melee?

 Red Corsair wrote:
Then those 78 hits (which is obscene) have shred meaning they do more wounds to T1-7 then s5. Combat is trickier to pull of sure, but it also gets around things like several of the hit mods in the game as well as cover, it also allows the unit to take more of the table and tie down other enemy units.


That's true, but I'd rather do that with a fast melee unit, rather than relying on a risky charge from deep strike.

Also, I don't like 20-man units in general. I'd far rather split my units into smaller ones that can split up to go after different targets. That's just me, though.

Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.
 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"



 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in gb
Tail-spinning Tomb Blade Pilot



UK, Midlands

The other big problem with list building is alpha strike defense. How do you stop Blood Angels charging out of deep strike? Or anything that arrives in rapid fire range? The closest thing we have to a disposable screen is Scarabs but they're not great at it. The only way to "infiltrate" is with the Deceiver but you're not going to be paying his points just to put disposable screening units forward.
   
Made in nz
Dakka Veteran




Spoiler:
Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
Bringing CP's is very difficult. I've been aiming for 8 ( Battalion and two 1CP detatchments) but it's not easy. The HQs are expensive and mostly geared toward sitting in the middle of a phalanx giving out buffs. 8 CP requires 4 HQs and I don't want 4 in any of my lists. The Dlord and CCB start to look appealing because they can kind of strike out on their own but they don't do anywhere near enough damage for their point cost.

The other problem is Troops. 5 man Tesla Immortals aren't bad but feel like a total tax unit. Full size units of Warriors and Immortals can be good with support but they are expensive.


So we've got expensive troops that need supporting HQs to do anything impressive, and expensive HQs that need to be near multiple units to be more than a tax. This means if you don't run a Phalanx formation your going to be going against the grain, and the troops and HQs will feel more like a tax.

Meanwhile we have loads of cool teleporting options that make you want to throw stuff into rapid fire range- but as soon as you start doing that you break up the troops from their supporting HQs.


I think the key to making good lists is going to be firstly about figuring out how to make good use of troops and HQs.


Why wouldn't you run the Imotekh, Lord/Overlord, 10x3 Tesla Immortals wombo battalion for 786-800 or so points? Then running one 1CP detachment of whatever is 8 CP plus CP regen on 5+.

You only have to get into 24" range and the 30 Immortals can peel off something like 100 S5 hits, that doesn't seem like much of a 'troop tax'


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
The other big problem with list building is alpha strike defense. How do you stop Blood Angels charging out of deep strike? Or anything that arrives in rapid fire range? The closest thing we have to a disposable screen is Scarabs but they're not great at it. The only way to "infiltrate" is with the Deceiver but you're not going to be paying his points just to put disposable screening units forward.


You use Nephrek Stratagem to protect units in deepstike, e.g Destroyers

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/13 11:15:07


 
   
Made in gb
Freaky Flayed One



United Kingdom

countbenignito wrote:
dapperbandit wrote:
 skoffs wrote:
Waitwaitwait,
Exactly how many things can we potentially have in the opponent's backfield turn one?
• Deceiver + D3 units
• Veil HQ + 1 unit
• 1 strategem deep strike unit
• X units of Deathmarks
• X units of Flayed Ones
• X dropping Monoliths
• X zooming flyers
• ?????

(though, I guess even with just those, if they had some DDA support from your side that'd be a pretty formidable threat to deal with)


Ghostwalk Mantle?

I was going to ask actually, is there some new cheese we can accomplish with Nemesor Zahndrekh? I like Vargard Obyron more now he has an extra attack and is useful in his own right beyond the teleport now he confers rerolls of 1 to wound.

I'm thinking, give Zahndrekh the Veil of Darkness, teleport him and one unit within 9" of the enemy, then use the Ghostwalk Mantle to teleport Vargard Obyron and a nasty melee unit within 6" of NZ and 1" away from enemy models, practically guaranteeing a successful charge.

If MWBD is applied correctly, you could have Obyron and 10 Lychguard hitting on 2s, rerolling 1s to wound. If you use an extra CP, you could make the Lychguard Strength 8, at which point they'd be flat out killing Intercessors on 2s and rerolling wound rolls of 1.

The question for me is, do I take a shooty unit or a slashy unit with NZ and his veil of darkness? 20 Warriors? 10 Immortals? 6 Destroyers? Or just more Lychguard to get more melee in?


Special Characters can't have Relics.


Ah, whaaat?

I thought I read the rules for relics as that only some named characters can't take relics. Oh well. I suppose you could still technically do it with a Lord or Cryptek though that feels like a convoluted way of catapulting your Warlord, a Lord and 10 Lychguard into the enemy deployment.
   
Made in nl
Regular Dakkanaut





What do you guys think of the following variants on a Novokh Flayed One bomb?

Using the Implacable Conqueror WL trait for reroll on the charges;

A: 1x Overlord /w Veil, 2x 20 Flayed Ones

The idea here is to put one unit of Flayed Ones on the table next to the Overlord, while the other one goes in deepstrike.
The OL uses MWBD on the first Flayed unit, who then uses Veil to deepstrike them, the other Flayed unit deepstrikes close to the OL as well.

This gives one unit of Flayed Ones an 8" charge, reroll failed. While the one has a 9" charge, reroll failed.

B: Overlord /w Veil, 1x 10 Lychguard /w sword&board, 2x 20 flayed ones.

This is an even heavier and more expensive melee bomb. The OL Veil's in with the Lychguard. The Flayed ones stay close to the OL for re-roll failed charges.
I can't really decide whether to take Scytheguard or Swordguard here. Scyhteguard will provide some much needed anti-tank, but will get focused down by stuff like plasma. Shield Guard might be ignored with the 2CP strategem, but that in turn might mean the Flayed Ones get wrecked.

C: OL /w relic Scythe, Cryptek /w Veil, 2x 20 Flayed Ones.

This is a more durable version of A, thanks to the 5++ from the Cryptek and improved RP. The Cryptek Veil's the OL forward, followed by the Flayed Ones popping up besides them.
Being Novokh also grants the OL the awesome Blood Scythe.

The main downside is that the OL doesn't really have a target for MWBD 1st turn...

What do you guys think? I know there are other options with the Nephrekh strategem, Deceiver, new strategems for the Monolith/Night Scythe etc, but this could be a good start.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/03/13 11:20:07


 
   
Made in fi
Jervis Johnson






Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
The other big problem with list building is alpha strike defense. How do you stop Blood Angels charging out of deep strike? Or anything that arrives in rapid fire range? The closest thing we have to a disposable screen is Scarabs but they're not great at it. The only way to "infiltrate" is with the Deceiver but you're not going to be paying his points just to put disposable screening units forward.


I already posted this concern twice but it's been glossed over. Tournament results later will confirm this glaring hole, because it looks like there's no answer. All of the faceroll deep strike bombs, super infiltrates (AL/RG/ADMech), or even outdated builds like Plasma Scions will do a huge number on Necrons. They simply don't have the tools that everyone in the tournament circuit consider 'must haves'. Even generic bubblewrap isn't generally considered sufficient -- You need Marine Scouts or Nurglings to really be safe. Unless you're Eldar. Because Eldar are just that special.

That said, I'd like people to discuss alternatives, but I guess we aren't really at that point. We're still at the "bickering about whether a trash unit is really trash or just bad" point.



This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/03/13 11:26:57


 
   
Made in gb
Instigating Incubi




The dark behind the eyes.

By the way, I know this is a petty quibble, but am I the only one who wishes they'd come up with more distinct names for each code?

Maybe I'm just thick, but I keep having to go back and look up which one's which out of Nihilakh and Nephrekh.

Either way, these names just make me wish GW hadn't spilled Tomb Kings in my Necrons.

Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.
 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"



 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in nl
Regular Dakkanaut





 Therion wrote:
Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
The other big problem with list building is alpha strike defense. How do you stop Blood Angels charging out of deep strike? Or anything that arrives in rapid fire range? The closest thing we have to a disposable screen is Scarabs but they're not great at it. The only way to "infiltrate" is with the Deceiver but you're not going to be paying his points just to put disposable screening units forward.


I already posted this concern twice but it's been glossed over. Tournament results later will confirm this glaring hole, because it looks like there's no answer. All of the faceroll deep strike bombs, super infiltrates (AL/RG/ADMech), or even outdated builds like Plasma Scions will do a huge number on Necrons. They simply don't have the tools that everyone in the tournament circuit consider 'must haves'. Even generic bubblewrap isn't generally considered sufficient -- You need Marine Scouts or Nurglings to really be safe. Unless you're Eldar. Because Eldar are just that special.

That said, I'd like people to discuss alternatives, but I guess we aren't really at that point. We're still at the "bickering about whether a trash unit is really trash or just bad" point.





Yea, apart from just boat-loads of Scarabs there isn't much screening. Though for our vehicles, the new QS strategem will definitely give it a boost in survivability.
   
Made in gb
Tail-spinning Tomb Blade Pilot



UK, Midlands

Halfpast_Yellow wrote:
Spoiler:
Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
Bringing CP's is very difficult. I've been aiming for 8 ( Battalion and two 1CP detatchments) but it's not easy. The HQs are expensive and mostly geared toward sitting in the middle of a phalanx giving out buffs. 8 CP requires 4 HQs and I don't want 4 in any of my lists. The Dlord and CCB start to look appealing because they can kind of strike out on their own but they don't do anywhere near enough damage for their point cost.

The other problem is Troops. 5 man Tesla Immortals aren't bad but feel like a total tax unit. Full size units of Warriors and Immortals can be good with support but they are expensive.


So we've got expensive troops that need supporting HQs to do anything impressive, and expensive HQs that need to be near multiple units to be more than a tax. This means if you don't run a Phalanx formation your going to be going against the grain, and the troops and HQs will feel more like a tax.

Meanwhile we have loads of cool teleporting options that make you want to throw stuff into rapid fire range- but as soon as you start doing that you break up the troops from their supporting HQs.


I think the key to making good lists is going to be firstly about figuring out how to make good use of troops and HQs.


Why wouldn't you run the Imotekh, Lord/Overlord, 10x3 Tesla Immortals wombo battalion for 786-800 or so points? Then running one 1CP detachment of whatever is 8 CP plus CP regen on 5+.

You only have to get into 24" range and the 30 Immortals can peel off something like 100 S5 hits, that doesn't seem like much of a 'troop tax'


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
The other big problem with list building is alpha strike defense. How do you stop Blood Angels charging out of deep strike? Or anything that arrives in rapid fire range? The closest thing we have to a disposable screen is Scarabs but they're not great at it. The only way to "infiltrate" is with the Deceiver but you're not going to be paying his points just to put disposable screening units forward.


You use Nephrek Stratagem to protect units in deepstike, e.g Destroyers



So yeah a Sautekh 3x 10 tesla Immortal core is about as good as it gets and should work decently. I do like that option but its the inability to do anything else effective with a Battalion that concerns me.


Nephrek DS strat is a great way to protect key units but you've still got the whole of the rest of your army deployed like sitting ducks.


5 man Telsa units in Nephrek seem kinda ok as they can jump 11" a turn and still shoot 10 S5 shots with 4s to hit.


   
Made in gb
Snivelling Workbot




Looking at the Monolith, it seems it still doesn't have the "Transport" keyword. Does it mean our infantry still can not move after they get on the table?

So much for the transport of the most advanced race in galaxy

Noc Est Forma in Morte 
   
Made in us
One Canoptek Scarab in a Swarm




Scotland, UK

Zalek wrote:
Looking at the Monolith, it seems it still doesn't have the "Transport" keyword. Does it mean our infantry still can not move after they get on the table?

So much for the transport of the most advanced race in galaxy


I thought the issue was if the Monolith is destroyed 'embarked' units couldn't escape? I don't see anything which stops moving after the teleport in from a Monolith, it happens at the start of the Movement phase?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/13 12:27:30


 
   
Made in nl
Regular Dakkanaut





Same here, but apparently deploying from a Monolith/Night Scythe counts as 'setting up' thus the unit cannot move.
   
Made in gb
Tail-spinning Tomb Blade Pilot



UK, Midlands

Has anyone come up with a HQ choice that is good for anything other than buffing nearby units?

CCB and Dlord can be made pretty durable but they aren't going to kill much.

   
Made in us
One Canoptek Scarab in a Swarm




Scotland, UK

Ah yes, sorry, I was getting my phases mixed up! They can still charge and shoot, just not move.
   
Made in us
Pyro Pilot of a Triach Stalker





Somewhere over the rainbow, way up high

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
Halfpast_Yellow wrote:
Spoiler:
Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
Bringing CP's is very difficult. I've been aiming for 8 ( Battalion and two 1CP detatchments) but it's not easy. The HQs are expensive and mostly geared toward sitting in the middle of a phalanx giving out buffs. 8 CP requires 4 HQs and I don't want 4 in any of my lists. The Dlord and CCB start to look appealing because they can kind of strike out on their own but they don't do anywhere near enough damage for their point cost.

The other problem is Troops. 5 man Tesla Immortals aren't bad but feel like a total tax unit. Full size units of Warriors and Immortals can be good with support but they are expensive.


So we've got expensive troops that need supporting HQs to do anything impressive, and expensive HQs that need to be near multiple units to be more than a tax. This means if you don't run a Phalanx formation your going to be going against the grain, and the troops and HQs will feel more like a tax.

Meanwhile we have loads of cool teleporting options that make you want to throw stuff into rapid fire range- but as soon as you start doing that you break up the troops from their supporting HQs.


I think the key to making good lists is going to be firstly about figuring out how to make good use of troops and HQs.


Why wouldn't you run the Imotekh, Lord/Overlord, 10x3 Tesla Immortals wombo battalion for 786-800 or so points? Then running one 1CP detachment of whatever is 8 CP plus CP regen on 5+.

You only have to get into 24" range and the 30 Immortals can peel off something like 100 S5 hits, that doesn't seem like much of a 'troop tax'


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
The other big problem with list building is alpha strike defense. How do you stop Blood Angels charging out of deep strike? Or anything that arrives in rapid fire range? The closest thing we have to a disposable screen is Scarabs but they're not great at it. The only way to "infiltrate" is with the Deceiver but you're not going to be paying his points just to put disposable screening units forward.


You use Nephrek Stratagem to protect units in deepstike, e.g Destroyers



So yeah a Sautekh 3x 10 tesla Immortal core is about as good as it gets and should work decently. I do like that option but its the inability to do anything else effective with a Battalion that concerns me.




We could even go farther with this wombo-combo, throw in a Triarch Stalker as well and a cryptek, which will allow them to re-roll 1s to hit, give them a +1 to RP, and a 5++ to keep them alive to keep the phalanx moving.

Bedouin Dynasty: 9000 pts
The Silver Lances: 4k pts
The Emperor's Finest 2k pts

MajorStoffer wrote:
...
Sternguard though, those guys are all about kicking ass. They'd chew bubble gum as well, but bubble gum is heretical. Only tau chew gum. 
   
 
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