Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

w1zard wrote:

Slipspace wrote:
There is a fairly well-established and accepted theory that predicts an island of stability in the periodic table for elements with proton numbers above 120, with element 126 being a leading candidate according to the nuclear shell model. If such an element was stable long-term, it's entirely possible it could have properties like those described in the 40k background. It's unlikely to be naturally occurring, though if it's stable there is the possibility it could exist somewhere and with the galaxy being a big place there's no reason it couldn't have been created somewhere out there and therefore be able to be mined.

*cough* But then it would be so dense you couldn't build anything with it or it would collapse under its own weight. For reference, we are running into the fact that STEEL is too dense in our modern day constructions and iron is relatively low on the periodic table.

Density doesn't increase with atomic number. The properties of an as-yet undiscovered element are nearly impossible to determine, especially one that would exist in the theorised island of stability. Tungsten is one of the densest elements and we can build stuff out of that just fine. I imagine the construction techniques of the 41st millenium are more advanced than ours and supporting superdense materials is probably within their technological capabilities.

Slipspace wrote:
Density doesn't increase with atomic number.

It depends on the atomic structure of the mass in question and a whole bunch of other factors including electron shell distances etc... Aluminum is less dense than steel despite having a higher atomic number.

However the general trend is that elements with greater atomic mass have greater densities. I'd be willing to bet a very precious body part that any element with an atomic number over 120 is going to be more dense than steel.

https://www.chemix-chemistry-software.com/school/what-is/density-graph-elements.html

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Our modern understanding of the periodic table (which is still just a theory, as is all science) is not the same as the one GW invented for a whole new set of physics for 40k.

"The periodic table is just a theory"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_n5E7feJHw0

40K is a fantasy setting. Not sci-fi. Fantasy. Wizards and demons and magic swords. Being set in 'the future' doesn't make it sci-fi. Jack Vance's Dying Earth isn't sci-fi. Neither is Moorcock's The History of the Runestaff.

Adamantium isn't in the periodic table. It's a fantasy substance. It's space magic.

 Duskweaver wrote:
40K is a fantasy setting. Not sci-fi. Fantasy. Wizards and demons and magic swords. Being set in 'the future' doesn't make it sci-fi. Jack Vance's Dying Earth isn't sci-fi. Neither is Moorcock's The History of the Runestaff.

Adamantium isn't in the periodic table. It's a fantasy substance. It's space magic.

Like I said, it breaks my suspension of disbelief.

"I am fine with things like warp drives that use fethery to accomplish crazy things in areas of science we don't really understand yet. What I am not ok with are things contradicting known and easily observable laws of physics."

Yes, even in "fantasy".

w1zard wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Our modern understanding of the periodic table (which is still just a theory, as is all science) is not the same as the one GW invented for a whole new set of physics for 40k.

"The periodic table is just a theory"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_n5E7feJHw0

Dude, all science is theory. We're not omniscient. We don't know 100%. Sure, some theories are better than others, but they're still theories.
The plum pudding model was scientific fact at one time. Now we accept the Geiger-Mardsen experiment to be the thing that disproves it. However, what's to say that another experiment isn't done, and disproves our understanding of atoms?

It's arrogance to believe that we KNOW things as a scientific fact. This is why we continue experiments - to further our understanding, even if that proves existing "science" as incorrect. That's why all science, unless we are omniscient, is only a theory.
(Do I believe the periodic table is correct as we know it? I won't future proof it, but it's certainly the best model we have. So, in a close minded view, yes, it's correct. However, it's still a theory.)

w1zard wrote:Like I said, it breaks my suspension of disbelief.

Of all the things to break your suspension of disbelief, it's the fact that you can't understand that 40k has a different set of elements in their periodic table?

It's certainly not a difficult thing for me, but you do you, I guess.

"I am fine with things like warp drives that use fethery to accomplish crazy things in areas of science we don't really understand yet. What I am not ok with are things contradicting known and easily observable laws of physics."

You can't observe them. Not empirically. 40k exists in a setting entirely seen in the third person, at the whims of an omnipotent author who presides over every facet of it. Because it is fiction. Physics don't need to exist in fiction, and in 40k, they clearly don't operate by our standards.

Yes, they contradict our known laws of physics: you want to know why that's not a problem? Because it's fictional, and must realistically be set in a dimension that does not obey the laws of physics as we know it. There may be similarities, but they're not the same, and shouldn't be judged as the same, because it's fictional.
Also, I'd like to point out the line "we don't really understand yet" - what makes you think WE do, in the real world? We THINK we do, and we assign theories to it - until something comes along and breaks that. If history has told us anything, it's that scientific facts are often the least concrete facts we know.

Next you'll be complaining that mithril, or Elven weapons make no sense and ruin LOTR because they clearly can't fit on the periodic table, or something.

Yes, even in "fantasy".

Why do you pin real world physics on fantasy then, when you KNOW it's not real?

w1zard wrote:

 Duskweaver wrote:
40K is a fantasy setting. Not sci-fi. Fantasy. Wizards and demons and magic swords. Being set in 'the future' doesn't make it sci-fi. Jack Vance's Dying Earth isn't sci-fi. Neither is Moorcock's The History of the Runestaff.

Adamantium isn't in the periodic table. It's a fantasy substance. It's space magic.

Like I said, it breaks my suspension of disbelief.

"I am fine with things like warp drives that use fethery to accomplish crazy things in areas of science we don't really understand yet. What I am not ok with are things contradicting known and easily observable laws of physics."

Yes, even in "fantasy".

sure but that's because you keep insisting on applying modern science to 40k. Clark's third law here applies. You keep insisting on "ohh X can't exist because of SCIENCE!" without considering that maybe just MAYBE in the fictional setting of 40k at least, the scientific theory of our current times has been proven wrong. people have belived all sorts of theories, that we now look back on as being quaint and well.. wrong. No reason to assume that in 40k if you showed up and started talking about the periodic table of elements you'd be met with the same reaction we'd have for someone who talked about a Heliocentric universe

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Dude, all science is theory...

Except the parts that can be proven empirically as facts. Like the periodic table? I accept that there are things we don't KNOW yet. and some areas of science that are a bit wobbly and we merely have working theories for instead of provable laws (gravity). The periodic table is not one of those areas.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Of all the things to break your suspension of disbelief, it's the fact that you can't understand that 40k has a different set of elements in their periodic table?

Yes.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Next you'll be complaining that mithril, or Elven weapons make no sense and ruin LOTR because they clearly can't fit on the periodic table, or something.

I always took Mithral to be Titanium as well for what it is worth.

BrianDavion wrote:
sure but that's because you keep insisting on applying modern science to 40k. Clark's third law here applies. You keep insisting on "ohh X can't exist because of SCIENCE!" without considering that maybe just MAYBE in the fictional setting of 40k at least, the scientific theory of our current times has been proven wrong. people have belived all sorts of theories, that we now look back on as being quaint and well.. wrong. No reason to assume that in 40k if you showed up and started talking about the periodic table of elements you'd be met with the same reaction we'd have for someone who talked about a Heliocentric universe

Our entire scientific base being proven wrong is too much of a stretch for me. I realize that is a personal opinion but I am very much into suspension of disbelief.

Don't get me wrong, I like star wars, star trek, 40k, fantasy settings... the works. But what all of these settings have in common is that they make the effort to explain away most or all of the "reality breaking" things in some manner. I have no patience for settings that lazily hand-wave away issues like that with no explanation, or have an inconsistent portrayal of certain things. 40k has evolved and things have changed sure... but there has always been some sort of effort to explain stuff. Like the fact that adamantium was lighter than steel and many times stronger to explain why Titans could exist without collapsing in on themselves or sinking into the ground under their own weight due to the square cubed law. Or the fact that lasguns are created with superconducting materials that have very little resistance to explain away heat problems that IRL lasers are faced with... or any other myriad of things.

All they had to say way adamantium was an hitherto undiscovered alloy and I would have bought it without further explanation. But no they went the 'element' route which means it is Titanium or nothing. At least from my perspective.

Our current periodic table exists using only our current knowledge and access to currently known/obtainable materials. It's very likely that even IRL, in the 41st millenium (if we're still around, of course) the periodic table will look different to what it does now. Using new information and new materials (again, assuming we've actually improved/expanded our spacefaring abilities). Remember, "scientific fact" also used to tell us the earth was flat, and the centre of the universe, and all sorts of other weird and quirky "facts" that, nowadays, with access to more/better knowledge, seem extremely silly and unbelievable. That's just using IRL as a grounded comparison, without even going into the fact that 40K is a highly and extremely fantasitc setting. Trying to enforce something as mundane as the IRL 2nd millenium periodic table, and furthermore having that, of all things, be the thing responsible for maintaining suspension of disbelief in something as outlandish and fanciful 40K is... well, it's beyond pedantic and more than a little moronic, if I'm being blunt.

 Anfauglir wrote:
Our current periodic table exists using only our current knowledge and access to currently known/obtainable materials. It's very likely that even IRL, in the 41st millenium (if we're still around, of course) the periodic table will look different to what it does now. Using new information and new materials (again, assuming we've actually improved/expanded our spacefaring abilities). Remember, "scientific fact" also used to tell us the earth was flat, and the centre of the universe, and all sorts of other weird and quirky "facts" that, nowadays, with access to more/better knowledge, seem extremely silly and unbelievable. That's just using IRL as a grounded comparison, without even going into the fact that 40K is a highly and extremely fantasitc setting. Trying to enforce something as mundane as the IRL 2nd millenium periodic table, and furthermore having that, of all things, be the thing responsible for maintaining suspension of disbelief in something as outlandish and fanciful 40K is... well, it's beyond pedantic and more than a little moronic, if I'm being blunt.

I don't think you understand how the periodic table works or why it is organized the way it is. The only way to add to the periodic table is to put more elements on the end of it because we have found every possible element up until 120 or so. I am not claiming modern science has found every element that exists. I AM claiming modern science has found every element that could realistically be used as a building material for Titans and the like because all of the other, later elements of the table are too dense.

Remember, it is a plot point that adamantium is both lighter and stronger than steel.

It’s science fiction. They made up an element. It’s that simple! It doesn’t have to fit real-world rules.

(How did an essentially troll thread end up on this entirely random tangent???)

w1zard wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Dude, all science is theory...

Except the parts that can be proven empirically as facts. Like the periodic table? I accept that there are things we don't KNOW yet. and some areas of science that are a bit wobbly and we merely have working theories for instead of provable laws (gravity). The periodic table is not one of those areas.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Of all the things to break your suspension of disbelief, it's the fact that you can't understand that 40k has a different set of elements in their periodic table?

Yes.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Next you'll be complaining that mithril, or Elven weapons make no sense and ruin LOTR because they clearly can't fit on the periodic table, or something.

I always took Mithral to be Titanium as well for what it is worth.

BrianDavion wrote:
sure but that's because you keep insisting on applying modern science to 40k. Clark's third law here applies. You keep insisting on "ohh X can't exist because of SCIENCE!" without considering that maybe just MAYBE in the fictional setting of 40k at least, the scientific theory of our current times has been proven wrong. people have belived all sorts of theories, that we now look back on as being quaint and well.. wrong. No reason to assume that in 40k if you showed up and started talking about the periodic table of elements you'd be met with the same reaction we'd have for someone who talked about a Heliocentric universe

Our entire scientific base being proven wrong is too much of a stretch for me. I realize that is a personal opinion but I am very much into suspension of disbelief.

Don't get me wrong, I like star wars, star trek, 40k, fantasy settings... the works. But what all of these settings have in common is that they make the effort to explain away most or all of the "reality breaking" things in some manner. I have no patience for settings that lazily hand-wave away issues like that with no explanation, or have an inconsistent portrayal of certain things. 40k has evolved and things have changed sure... but there has always been some sort of effort to explain stuff. Like the fact that adamantium was lighter than steel and many times stronger to explain why Titans could exist without collapsing in on themselves or sinking into the ground under their own weight due to the square cubed law. Or the fact that lasguns are created with superconducting materials that have very little resistance to explain away heat problems that IRL lasers are faced with... or any other myriad of things.

All they had to say way adamantium was an hitherto undiscovered alloy and I would have bought it without further explanation. But no they went the 'element' route which means it is Titanium or nothing. At least from my perspective.

No they don't. Star Wars mostly just plunks you in the setting, says "this here's the way things are" and moves the story forward, without expanding anything beyond that (the explination is mostly in RPG supplements etc that come later) Star Trek just spews out scientific buzzwords.. "it works because of the quantum flux stavlizier interfaces with the dohickey"

trek and SW are much like 40k, in that the stuff is there to tell the story, when they focus on explaining things is when you get Midichlorians and Threshhold.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
It’s science fiction. They made up an element. It’s that simple! It doesn’t have to fit real-world rules.

(How did an essentially troll thread end up on this entirely random tangent???)

Go figure.

But be it a theory or not a thoery the original table of element looked already different because stuff has been added in. It had some blanks to fill up in the beginning if I remember correctly, that in later centuris were finally found. So no, it is not stupid at all to say that maybe in this fictionnal universe (where remember is very much bearing the fingerprint of fantasy) our current table could have proven to be utterly outdated. There's no issue with that.

Find me wraithbone on the chart for starter.... It IS a made up element. They can make up an element that turns into pig when on contact with an ultrasmurf if they fancy, because 40k does'nt comply to our physics or logic (see above that turdish bolter bullpup design that fires nonetheless). You can try as hard as you want. And if you have problems with setting ditching issues with "uh that's mysterious but that's how", well then I'm afraid you're not in the right setting, because it is keen on mystery and science-magic.

w1zard wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Dude, all science is theory...

Except the parts that can be proven empirically as facts. Like the periodic table? I accept that there are things we don't KNOW yet. and some areas of science that are a bit wobbly and we merely have working theories for instead of provable laws (gravity). The periodic table is not one of those areas.

Sorry, but like with all science, the periodic table is STILL a theory.

We can assign beliefs and attempt to make a rational explanation for every phenomena we see, including gravity, time, atomic structure, and literally everything else. However, the only true fact is that we can currently only perceive these phenomena, and try and make an understanding of them, but not truly KNOW.

Unless you're omniscient, the universe is still just humanity trying to collectively figure out what is going on, with varying degrees of theory.

I again point to the plum pudding model. That was once science. The world being flat was science. Humans being completely unrelated to the other animals on the planet was science. And you're arrogant enough to presume that there will be no more revolutionary discoveries, especially in a fictional universe?
All GW would have to say is "humanity realised that their previous understanding of physics was woefully inadequate when they experienced the wider galaxy". Oh wait, that's basically the Golden Age.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Of all the things to break your suspension of disbelief, it's the fact that you can't understand that 40k has a different set of elements in their periodic table?

Yes.

In which case, I really think this isn't the right kind of sci-fi or fantasy for you.
It's clear that 40k does not, and has not, worked by our definition of physics since its creation. This isn't new. If you're going to insist on trying to apply (theoretical) modern beliefs to a fantasy setting set millennia after our timeline, then I think you've given yourself a rather Sisyphean task.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Next you'll be complaining that mithril, or Elven weapons make no sense and ruin LOTR because they clearly can't fit on the periodic table, or something.

I always took Mithral to be Titanium as well for what it is worth.

That's kinda difficult, considering how hard it is to refine titanium. It's impossible to do with conventional smelting because it creates titanium carbide - a ceramic material. I don't know about you, but mithril don't look ceramic to me. And, what do you know, but all the smelting we see in LOTR is typical carbon smelting - mithril being titanium is unlikely, if we apply the same logic you do to 40k.

And how do Elven weapons work, in that they glow selectively?

BrianDavion wrote:
sure but that's because you keep insisting on applying modern science to 40k. Clark's third law here applies. You keep insisting on "ohh X can't exist because of SCIENCE!" without considering that maybe just MAYBE in the fictional setting of 40k at least, the scientific theory of our current times has been proven wrong. people have belived all sorts of theories, that we now look back on as being quaint and well.. wrong. No reason to assume that in 40k if you showed up and started talking about the periodic table of elements you'd be met with the same reaction we'd have for someone who talked about a Heliocentric universe

Our entire scientific base being proven wrong is too much of a stretch for me. I realize that is a personal opinion but I am very much into suspension of disbelief.

Heaven forfend if you were born in 1911, when the plum pudding model was revoked. Or when Newton's apple landed. Or when Einstein proposed the Theory of Relativity.

How long have we been on Earth, and how much do we think we know? Now consider how long people have been around in 40k - you seriously don't think that science as we know it could flip on it's head? And that's assuming 40k even HAD the same scientific principles as we do.

Don't get me wrong, I like star wars, star trek, 40k, fantasy settings... the works. But what all of these settings have in common is that they make the effort to explain away most or all of the "reality breaking" things in some manner. I have no patience for settings that lazily hand-wave away issues like that with no explanation, or have an inconsistent portrayal of certain things. 40k has evolved and things have changed sure... but there has always been some sort of effort to explain stuff. Like the fact that adamantium was lighter than steel and many times stronger to explain why Titans could exist without collapsing in on themselves or sinking into the ground under their own weight due to the square cubed law. Or the fact that lasguns are created with superconducting materials that have very little resistance to explain away heat problems that IRL lasers are faced with... or any other myriad of things.

Physics are different in 40k. That's a simple enough solution. It's fantasy.

Star Trek invents technobabble. Do you seriously expect show writers to have a strong enough grasp of physics that they could propose a "realistic" thing for all that they do?
Star Wars actually doesn't really explain much. Not directly. Sure, we know lightsabers are powered somewhat by Kyber crystals. How? Now we're back at Star Trek's technobabble.
40k simply says "this is a thing". They don't have an answer, because they don't need one - 40k is not beholden to our grasp of the world. Therefore, your attempts to do so are antithetical to the world they have created.

All they had to say way adamantium was an hitherto undiscovered alloy and I would have bought it without further explanation. But no they went the 'element' route which means it is Titanium or nothing. At least from my perspective.

Considering that our current understanding of titanium is different to what we see of Adamantium, I doubt it. I would far more readily believe that 40k had an entirely unique physics models than our world, than believe titanium was the same as adamantium.

w1zard wrote:I don't think you understand how the periodic table works or why it is organized the way it is. The only way to add to the periodic table is to put more elements on the end of it because we have found every possible element up until 120 or so. I am not claiming modern science has found every element that exists. I AM claiming modern science has found every element that could realistically be used as a building material for Titans and the like because all of the other, later elements of the table are too dense.

Exactly - you hit my point perfectly, and I don't even think you knew it:
Modern science.

What makes you think that 40k obeys the laws of modern science when it takes place millennia afterward? You still think modern science will be true a hundred years from now? A thousand? What makes you even think it's bound to the same laws of physics?

Everything you claim as "possible" and "impossible" is only deemed so by our modern theories. When something "impossible" does occur, there is one conclusion: that is it not "impossible" and that our current understanding is wrong. Given how it is clearly "possible" that adamantium exists in 40k, that means that the things that say it is "impossible" IRL are wrong.

Remember, it is a plot point that adamantium is both lighter and stronger than steel.

Yup. Because the physics for that fictional world allow it to be so.

In this debate I think it's always good to remember Clark's Third Law. "Any sufficantly advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic" this was a quote Clark used to make a point... if something is so much more advanced you simply can't understand it because you don't have sufficant knowlege base, the classic example of this is "give Da Vinci a computer. He'll proclaim it must be sorcery" 40k IMHO SHOULD be like this, it should be filled with all sorts of weird stuff that simply isn't explainable with modern science, monomolecular blade that hold an edge? "well gak man! thats some funky technosorcery!" entire types of advanced materials we've never heard of "well crap! I guess once we left the solar system we realized how flawed our understanding of materials where!" don't over think it, just accept that 40k's technology is so much differant from ours it might as well be magic.

w1zard wrote:

 Anfauglir wrote:
Our current periodic table exists using only our current knowledge and access to currently known/obtainable materials. It's very likely that even IRL, in the 41st millenium (if we're still around, of course) the periodic table will look different to what it does now. Using new information and new materials (again, assuming we've actually improved/expanded our spacefaring abilities). Remember, "scientific fact" also used to tell us the earth was flat, and the centre of the universe, and all sorts of other weird and quirky "facts" that, nowadays, with access to more/better knowledge, seem extremely silly and unbelievable. That's just using IRL as a grounded comparison, without even going into the fact that 40K is a highly and extremely fantasitc setting. Trying to enforce something as mundane as the IRL 2nd millenium periodic table, and furthermore having that, of all things, be the thing responsible for maintaining suspension of disbelief in something as outlandish and fanciful 40K is... well, it's beyond pedantic and more than a little moronic, if I'm being blunt.

I don't think you understand how the periodic table works or why it is organized the way it is. The only way to add to the periodic table is to put more elements on the end of it because we have found every possible element up until 120 or so. I am not claiming modern science has found every element that exists. I AM claiming modern science has found every element that could realistically be used as a building material for Titans and the like because all of the other, later elements of the table are too dense.

Remember, it is a plot point that adamantium is both lighter and stronger than steel.

If I recall correctly from studying physics 5 years ago, atoms are made up of Protons, neutrons and electrons, positively, neutrally and negativelly charged respectively. Originally, neutrons were not considered or detected as they have no charge.

Why do you not think its possible that there are other sub-atomic particulars within an atom, with negligible mass (like electrons) and no charge (like neutrons) but act to change a material far differently that its atomic number on the table would suggest? This would leave room "between" currently periodic elements for these new elements to exist depending, but also having the same atomic numbers due to containing the same number of protons as say, iron. Thereby needing a reorganisation of the table not based on mass or protons, but based on these yet undiscovered sub-atomic particles.

Who's also to say that some elements are disproven as elements? Say for instance, it is discovered that semi-metals such as arsenic are discovered to be not elements, but compounds found by a yet-undiscovered form of bonding that fuses the two atoms together into one, instead of modern understanding of covalent or metallic bonding? Thus each semi-metal is made of two or more elements that leave room on the table in there place.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Adamantium's made up. GW says it's naturally occurring. Therefore, it is.

Our modern understanding of the periodic table (which is still just a theory, as is all science) is not the same as the one GW invented for a whole new set of physics for 40k.

This was my point. They didn’t intend it to be a titanium alloy or some new element on the periodic table it was just a made up super material with no basis in real life what so ever.

w1zard wrote:
Like I said, it breaks my suspension of disbelief.

Which is fine. But don't pretend that your personal preferences in fictional settings imply an objective flaw in 40K as a setting. 40K has never been intended to be the thing you seem to want it to be. The fact that lots of stuff in 40K is not at all scientifically plausible is not a bug, it's a feature. The 40K setting started out as an expansion to the Warhammer Fantasy world. It was explicitly built around a 1980s understanding of a mediaeval understanding of reality, filtered through 2000AD comics, Moorcock novels and Monty Python and the Holy Grail. The 'rules' of the setting are not based on real-world physics in any way at all, but on how Rick Priestley imagined mediaeval peasants thought the world worked.

Yes, even in "fantasy".

It's an utterly bizarre thing to expect from fantasy, though. Mithril is not titanium, and neither is adamantium. They're entirely fantastical substances that obey the Rule of Cool and the necessities of narrative convenience.

 Deadshot wrote:
Why do you not think its possible that there are other sub-atomic particulars within an atom, with negligible mass (like electrons) and no charge (like neutrons) but act to change a material far differently that its atomic number on the table would suggest? This would leave room "between" currently periodic elements for these new elements to exist depending, but also having the same atomic numbers due to containing the same number of protons as say, iron. Thereby needing a reorganisation of the table not based on mass or protons, but based on these yet undiscovered sub-atomic particles.

I suppose that is theoretically possible, but it is too much of a stretch for me to maintain suspension of disbelief considering how much research and time we have poured into locating new elements and experimenting with creating new ones.

I would believe that the warp actually exists IRL how it is described in 40k before I believed that... I am not exaggerating.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Heaven forfend if you were born in 1911, when the plum pudding model was revoked. Or when Newton's apple landed. Or when Einstein proposed the Theory of Relativity.

I think you don't understand the difference between a primitive theory of how things work vs something that is provably true and will always remain true. Science isn't just a nebulous collection of theories that are constantly evolving to explain things. There are things that have been proven 100% correct and immutable. Like the fact that the earth is round, the sun is the gravitational center of the solar system, and that the speed of light is the upper limit of velocity in real space. Heliocentrism is no more open to debate than the fundamentals of the periodic table. We don't know everything, this is true, but we have PROVEN a lot of things beyond reasonable criticism.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
What makes you think that 40k obeys the laws of modern science when it takes place millennia afterward? You still think modern science will be true a hundred years from now? A thousand? What makes you even think it's bound to the same laws of physics?

Because the known areas of the periodic table, things like F=MA, and a triangle having three sides are true now, and will always be true even a billion years from now. These things are called "laws" as opposed to "theories" because they are true, 100% undeniably and provably true, and are immutable barring something "changing the rules". If a fairy came along in M21 and waved a magic wand and completely redid the periodic table I would accept more readily the idea that adamantium is an element, but that is not a part of the lore, so I have to assume that 40k operates under the same principles and materials laws as we do under modern day science.

It is one thing to explain away things like space ships and power armor with 40k years of scientific advancement... it is quite another thing to claim that 40k years somehow changes the basic laws of the universe, and things like physics and chemistry work fundamentally differently then how we have PROVEN them to work in the modern day.

Our second millennium periodic table fails to take into account all atomic components; it considers 'Protons, Electrons and Neutrons', but fails to consider 'Empyrions'.