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GW does bounce ideas from AoS, refine them, and put them in 40k. They also bounce ideas back from 40k, refine them, and put them in AoS. IMO that back-and-forth dynamic has led to some of their best rule developments.

If PP can get a mainstream deal from a company like Milton Bradley in the late 80’s, early 90’s like GW did, I’m sure we’d see a massive uptick in their sales and fandom.
The whole reason GW is a juggernaut that it is, is because of those deals made with major mainstream game publishers.

How many kids were introduced to GW and their style through those games? HeroQuest, Space Crusade and Battle Masters.
I’m fairly certain that if GW didn’t get those massive injections of mainstream cash and marketing, they wouldn’t be in the position they are today.

These days no corporation will take any risks at all and try something new. This is why we see endless reboots, and stuff like HQ making a comeback on Hasbro Pulse. Nostalgia makes bank. It makes me wonder wheat will happen in 40 more years with nothing but remakes, reboots, and rehashes of everything over the past 40 years? I’m not sure how long preying on nostalgia will last.

But ultimately if PP wants to upgrade to compete with GW, they have a long hard road ahead.

I think PP needs one thing to really up their game - plastics.

They need to get a good plastic either from a 3rd party or in house. Heck plastics are coming down it seems, I've noticed that Warcradle are now doing Dystopian Wars in plastic and they've not had that on sale for years.

If PP could source some really good and better plastics then they could get warmachine and hordes back on the market with some big starting sets at more affordable prices; then keep metals and resins for support models sold in fewer numbers per customer.

If they could do that then they can ramp up production and marketing to meet a rising demand. I think that was their plan, but they fumbled with a plastic material that wasn't well received and then fumbled a few more times with other bad choices/situations in a snowball situation.

So they need to snowball the other way.



That said they might just need a few years smaller scale production to refine processes/materials and to steady their own ship. Warcaster might well be a good game for them to work with, improve ideas, test new things and also to give them a steady income to settle into.
IT also gives them time to steadily grow and find/train staff for new roles and to have an eye for the future.


PP doesn't have the resources GW does to make a snap change and a sudden vast investment in expansion. Their real risk is that they simply end up sinking down and never getting their head up above other brands. Lets face it when PP got big the first time they were in a bubble that was quite empty of competition save for GW. Today we've got quite a few other firms and companies on the up. The market is busier and perhaps the best we can hope is that PP stabilizes and becomes a strong brand rather than the second strongest.

The main issue they face is just that sprue plastic isn't great for their "skipped leg day" style. The jack kits they did were pretty great, but I don't see things like Dire Trolls turning out without losing a lot of skin texture or muscle definition. GW are masters of the art, but there's a reason Troggoths are comparatively scrawny. The hydra seemed to really break them. Beautiful sculpt, but translating it into hard plastic was a total flop.

Ghool wrote:If PP can get a mainstream deal from a company like Milton Bradley in the late 80’s, early 90’s like GW did, I’m sure we’d see a massive uptick in their sales and fandom.
The whole reason GW is a juggernaut that it is, is because of those deals made with major mainstream game publishers.

Different era though, different rules.

Turn it round - why would any company invest in a partnership with w tiny company with an IP no one's heard of for an already saturated market? Bear in mind, Matt Wilson is also notoriously controlling and pp don't have the best of reputations.

If you want a mainstream deal, and you want to put out a board game or video game, you go to gw and you build one of those ten a penny mobile games. Name recognition is a thing.They're the ones to do business with.

Overread wrote:I .

If they could do that then they can ramp up production and marketing to meet a rising demand. I think that was their plan, but they fumbled with a plastic material that wasn't well received and then fumbled a few more times with other bad choices/situations in a snowball situation.

That said they might just need a few years smaller scale production to refine processes/materials and to steady their own ship. Warcaster might well be a good game for them to work with, improve ideas, test new things and also to give them a steady income to settle into.
IT also gives them time to steadily grow and find/train staff for new roles and to have an eye for the future.

There were a lot of other things contributing to wmh decline than just poor plastics. While I don't wish to rain on the parade (I'd like pp to do well) the realistic and cynical view is that you're counting your chickens and already banking on massively riding demand. I don't think the demand is there.

As to waiting for a few years, my personal.suspicion is by then it will be too late. Wmh is no longer Pp's breadwinner. It wouldn't surprise me to see them finish off the iron kingdoms like gw did wmh. Except instead of going out in a blaze of glory with campaign books and awesome models, I suspect we'll get a Twitter vignette.

LunarSol wrote:The main issue they face is just that sprue plastic isn't great for their "skipped leg day" style. The jack kits they did were pretty great, but I don't see things like Dire Trolls turning out without losing a lot of skin texture or muscle definition. GW are masters of the art, but there's a reason Troggoths are comparatively scrawny. The hydra seemed to really break them. Beautiful sculpt, but translating it into hard plastic was a total flop.

To be fair, some of the recent sprue units were pretty damned good too. I picked up some house ellowyr swordsmen for a project recently and they're solid as anything. Tempted to get some trenxher long gunners too. Then again I got some riflemen and halberdiers as well recently. Same project. Metals are great. Plastic riflemen are shocking (resin). About half of what I got was unsalvageable with mould lines.

While I think PP as a company have a lot to sort out, the biggest issue facing the (re)growth of the game here in the UK seems to be the prevalence and attitude of the “competitive” crowed. Which, let’s be honest is the driving force of the WM/H base.

We have been lucky here in the UK that we have, in some areas, been able to do some social distanced and covid secure gaming. During this time my friends have started a wargaming and boardgaming club in our local town which has been very successful and iv made a few posts about it on this thread. We are situated on the outskirts of a major UK city. We have been successful, until recently in getting new players into the game with friendly laid back play, narrative scenarios, teaching, 3D terrain etc. However, we now have players from "the wider meta” starting to attend the club and quite frankly, its ruining it.

We don’t want to turn players away but these players are treating each and every game like they are preparing for the finals of the Iron Gauntlet and basically rudely rofflestomping everything in sight. Iv played for many years but im not a high level player at all. Sitting across the table from a person who doesn’t want to engage socially and want to drop their most highly tuned list into somebody who hasn’t played properly for a while due to covid or is a very new player, smashing them off the table turn 2 is not what people want and it doesn’t grow the community. The reverse in fact, it drives people away.

Iv always been aware of such things happening. But until recently we have only played in our friends group. Now we are involved in a club, trying to grow a community im starting this issue right in the face. I’m sure we can manage it and ensure that new players only play each other, but it gives a very bad impression of the game to people if “that’s what the community is like”.

PP need to continue to fix things. But we need to look at ourselves and ask, “is this the community we want”.

Community development within clubs is an issue and whilst I think PP's game shows an extreme element its by no means alone.

I think there are multiple elements including the fact that many clubs advertise and focus on growth far too little. The players are poor at welcoming new people to the fold because they are so unpractised at it.They don't realise their own attitude problems nor that culture they create. Likely because its something they never had to focus upon.

It's likely worse because that was likely the role the Press Ganger took; and if they were good at it they likely managed to support a modest core of beginners and intermediates who kept within themselves. Losing that buffer I think likely left many groups just with their experienced pro players. People who likely don't have the experience and skill set to welcome new people or to play outside of the competitive box.


I don't think there's anything wrong with competition, but the way I see it the best solutions to it are education; awareness; focus on growth of groups and spreading awareness. If you can sustain growth of a group then you create an influx of new people.

Sunno good call. giving a new player a bad game is never the way to build community.

One of our basic rules is "don't be a jerk"
The tournament scene tends to be toxic no matter where or in what system i have seen it. WM/H magnified it with the old page 5 rule. for some people with this mind set winning/crushing your opponent is the only thing they think is fun because it is a competitive wargame.

After many games where i had fun i thanked my opponent for soundly kicking my behind.

Actually playing the game should be fun for most casual players because why would we want to spend the time to play otherwise? sure everybody wants to win but the battle to get there should be just as important.

We have several players that know they are not welcome on our game night because they have that kind of super tourney player attitude(or have been caught cheating to win). unless they bring their own friends they know they will not get a game so they don't show up much.

 Overread wrote:


I don't think there's anything wrong with competition,

For the record, neither do I. Its more about attitude of those individuals. What is it that, when they are presented with a new or inexperienced player, makes them go "i'll drop my Iron gauntlet, highly teched lists and rofflestop this chad noob in 5 minutes". And then proceed to do so while being unfriendly about it?

I also have no issues with experienced players stomping new players. Hell, even I end up stomping a new player from time to time. And there is not issue in that as long as its done in a friendly way and you explain whats going on, offer tips etc and make the stomping an enjoyable and informative experience. Review the game with them afterwards if they want and if its really bad, buy them dinner and a beer afterwards.....

Its all about personal attitude. And PP can't really fix that unless they are going to come out with explicit statements or, god forbid, start a community programme (insert well trodden pressganger conversation here)

Sunno wrote:


We have been lucky here in the UK that we have, in some areas, been able to do some social distanced and covid secure gaming. During this time my friends have started a wargaming and boardgaming club in our local town which has been very successful and iv made a few posts about it on this thread. We are situated on the outskirts of a major UK city. We have been successful, until recently in getting new players into the game with friendly laid back play, narrative scenarios, teaching, 3D terrain etc. However, we now have players from "the wider meta” starting to attend the club and quite frankly, its ruining it.

How do you plan to deal with that?

Maybe newer players should be made more aware of the situation, so that they are better equiped to decide whether they want to play a game against a certain person or not?

To refuse someone you first need to know that their attitude is going to make the game a miserable experience.

Cyel wrote:

Sunno wrote:


We have been lucky here in the UK that we have, in some areas, been able to do some social distanced and covid secure gaming. During this time my friends have started a wargaming and boardgaming club in our local town which has been very successful and iv made a few posts about it on this thread. We are situated on the outskirts of a major UK city. We have been successful, until recently in getting new players into the game with friendly laid back play, narrative scenarios, teaching, 3D terrain etc. However, we now have players from "the wider meta” starting to attend the club and quite frankly, its ruining it.

How do you plan to deal with that?

Maybe newer players should be made more aware of the situation, so that they are better equiped to decide whether they want to play a game against a certain person or not?

To refuse someone you first need to know that their attitude is going to make the game a miserable experience.

In all honesty, we don’t know right now. We are in full lockdown again so we have some time to think about it.

While we knew that for some games we were pairing up experienced and newbs, we checked with both parties that they were both ok with that. We just naively thought that the experienced players would take it into account and be good about it. On the plus side i think we have identified one of the more experienced players who is happy to coach and develop new players but the majority of them just want to crush face.

So we will prob have to keep the two parties separate as we want to ensure that the tables are filled on games nights etc. We won’t turn people away, if they want a table to practice for the UKTC or whatever they can have it with our blessing. Hopefully as the new players develop (and I also get better) we can also grow the casual or more relaxed player base. We also focus a lot on hobby, painting etc so its two different interests that again don’t seem to overlap with many of the comp players.

I think we can accommodate both. Its just annoying that we will prob have to “keep the two apart”. Its not a good look. It’s a balance between making all parties welcome but also having the atmosphere that we want as a club. We don't mind hardcore/competition play and smashing face. But we want community growth and friendly attitudes first and foremost.

 Overread wrote:

It's likely worse because that was likely the role the Press Ganger took; and if they were good at it they likely managed to support a modest core of beginners and intermediates who kept within themselves. Losing that buffer I think likely left many groups just with their experienced pro players. People who likely don't have the experience and skill set to welcome new people or to play outside of the competitive box.

I mean... its not like the Press Gangers went away. We're still all people in our communities whether we have a fancy shirt or not. Most of us were Press Gangers before we got the title and if the program going away changed that, you were probably in it for the wrong reasons.

The competitive mindset is tough for me to come to terms with, largely because I agree with it, but also see it as something of a dead end. The core "Page 5" of a competitive mindset, "don't blame the player, blame the game", "put in the effort and earn your wins", etc has always resonated with me since I played fighters in the arcade. The main problem is that when that becomes your only goal, it's easy to get disconnected from what drew you in initially. It can also be really hard to turn off. It's hard to engage in a puzzle you know the solution to in the same way.

I think in Warmachine's case, part of the problem is simply game size. There's so much stuff to bring already its very hard to have room for a "fun" list. There's also a general problem to where a lot of the less competitive stuff, just isn't very fun and engaging. I think one of the big problems with the new batch of starter Warcasters is they're "kinder" but also just kind of boring. Like I get they were going with less complicated, but those bombastic feats of Sorscha, Stryker, Denny, Kreoss, etc are huge appeals for new players. Winning and losing are less important than unique and memorable moments. I think one of the big faults PP has had is reacting to the competitive community by making things more "even" without necessarily being more engaging. For example, Throws are probably something that rather than being game winning, but hard to set up, need to be less decisive and more common. The game needs to really embrace its original, untamed soul, even if it has to cut a lot of stuff to make its core options really work again.

 Overread wrote:
Community development within clubs is an issue and whilst I think PP's game shows an extreme element its by no means alone.

I think there are multiple elements including the fact that many clubs advertise and focus on growth far too little. The players are poor at welcoming new people to the fold because they are so unpractised at it.They don't realise their own attitude problems nor that culture they create. Likely because its something they never had to focus upon.

It's likely worse because that was likely the role the Press Ganger took; and if they were good at it they likely managed to support a modest core of beginners and intermediates who kept within themselves. Losing that buffer I think likely left many groups just with their experienced pro players. People who likely don't have the experience and skill set to welcome new people or to play outside of the competitive box.


I don't think there's anything wrong with competition, but the way I see it the best solutions to it are education; awareness; focus on growth of groups and spreading awareness. If you can sustain growth of a group then you create an influx of new people.

I would say at this point. PP being located in Seattle is killing it. They also need to bring back the Press Ganger program. At this point the absence of the program is doing more damage than good to the hobby. Especially with them having 3 lines of games right now. It is time. Heck, I would say expanding the PG program to include a retailer variant would be a solid move.

marxlives wrote:


I would say at this point. PP being located in Seattle is killing it. They also need to bring back the Press Ganger program. At this point the absence of the program is doing more damage than good to the hobby. Especially with them having 3 lines of games right now. It is time. Heck, I would say expanding the PG program to include a retailer variant would be a solid move.

I'll bite, how is being in Seattle killing PP (which, also, for the record, they're not in Seattle proper but Kirkland)?

I would agree that some kind of Press Gang program would be helpful, but after the WotC fiasco and the realization that it is technically illegal for a for-profit company to have volunteers, lots of game companies got very gunshy with their programs. That's not to say something can't be figured out (and should be; even if it's a simple 1099 kinda thing), and doing so would likely help.

Cost of living is pretty high for what they're willing to compensate employees is probably the biggest issue with their location.

 LunarSol wrote:
Cost of living is pretty high for what they're willing to compensate employees is probably the biggest issue with their location.

Cost of living is a bit high, but from all my friends who previously worked there, the other part of the issue is that PP pays well below average rates. When someone can take a job working retail and make more than they did as a "middle level manager" at PP, or get paid more to literally flip burgers at a fast food place or deliver pizza than work in the production facilities, well...

And is moving the company even an option, really? Besides the fact that Matt Wilson lives down in California (which is even more expensive), so is remote anyway, do you think the majority of PP's current employees, especially management, would want to relocate for just above minimum wage? So moving would likely wind up with a big workforce turnover, not to mention the move costs. I think it's pretty clear they don't have the capital to do that, and it's unclear if that would be a wise thing in the long term.

Is labor/facilities costs an issue? Sure, I'm not going to say it isn't. But frankly, it would be regardless of where they were anyway, since if they're struggling to pay just above minimum wage, they'd have that struggle anyway.

deleted

 Mr. Grey wrote:
TBF we as consumers don't know if they're struggling to pay just above minimum wage or if that's a deliberate choice on PP's part.

What does Matt Wilson even do for the company anymore? I know a few years back he had big aspirations to do short films or something, but does he even still play a role in the daily running of the company?

True, we have no inside info on their financials, so we can only guess. Which puts even further doubt, honestly, on the effect of being in a higher cost of living area is, in fact, part of their problem. /shrug

I have no inside info on what Wilson does these days, but I do know that he was still fairly actively involved in trying to run day-to-day stuff even after he moved to California for at least until a couple years ago.

Didn't they just move the company HQ a few months/year ago?

 Overread wrote:
Didn't they just move the company HQ a few months/year ago?

Yeah, from Bellevue (which is even higher cost of living, but had slightly better business tax incentives than Seattle) up to Kirkland. That's just kind of an "across town" move though, really, something like 10 miles or so.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ironically, PP's original office was less than 2 miles from my house, down in the Ballard neighborhood of Seattle proper. Don't recall when they moved to Bellevue, but I think they had 2 different locations there over the years.

 Valander wrote:

 Overread wrote:
Didn't they just move the company HQ a few months/year ago?

Yeah, from Bellevue (which is even higher cost of living, but had slightly better business tax incentives than Seattle) up to Kirkland. That's just kind of an "across town" move though, really, something like 10 miles or so.

Even further than that. They are up in Maltby.

Matt stepped down as CEO a couple years ago. I think he's still something like CCO or something. His wife I believe is still the CFO?

 Robert Facepalmer wrote:

 Valander wrote:

 Overread wrote:
Didn't they just move the company HQ a few months/year ago?

Yeah, from Bellevue (which is even higher cost of living, but had slightly better business tax incentives than Seattle) up to Kirkland. That's just kind of an "across town" move though, really, something like 10 miles or so.

Even further than that. They are up in Maltby.

Their website lists Woodinville, (my bad memory thinking Kirkland) but yeah mapping that looks to be in the Maltby neighborhood. Either way, Bellevue to there isn't a "huge" move, still being less than 20 miles. Not enough that the majority of employees who were working there pre-move and still working there would have likewise had to move (and thus, change their cost of living). Add some to commutes, sure, but it's just a big metro area pretty much between Everett and Tacoma.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 LunarSol wrote:
Matt stepped down as CEO a couple years ago. I think he's still something like CCO or something. His wife I believe is still the CFO?

Oh right, I think I remember hearing something about him going to CCO or something like that. AFAIK Sherry Yeary is still President.

I do know that he had a reputation for wanting to micromanage despite being in another state. How much that's changed I can't say, as I no longer have any friends who work there that can share any gossip.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8ZjqUltEC4

The last few parts of the interview (time stamped) are about WM&H and it's future.

As expected, small games are the way to go. The "75pts only crowd" is going to be relegated to playing "an unofficial" format.

Cyel wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8ZjqUltEC4

The last few parts of the interview (time stamped) are about WM&H and it's future.

As expected, small games are the way to go. The "75pts only crowd" is going to be relegated to playing "an unofficial" format.

I didn't catch that part from the last 10 minutes I listened to. It would be great if it were true, but mostly he talked about how he considered making 50 standard and Facebook rioted. ==

Yeah, I am trying too hard to read between the lines. It was my impression that he would like small formats to be the way to go with the game, and was not too happy with the opposition. But you're absolutely right, no such information appears in what he was saying.

Pushing smaller formats is often a good tactic for growing a game community - smaller games = less time between buying models and playing.

GW did a smart move by not outright forcing smaller games en-mass, but instead segregates its marketing into distinct blocks and promotes at least one major smaller game format - killteam/warcry.

That way you make the smaller game sound really important and entertaining to engage with rather than trying to push the game to only one format size. Because if you push for small you make it welcoming to newbies, but rather off putting to long term customers who have more models; whilst the other way around and you end up with what contributed toward the death of Old World Warhammer - big armies played by established customers and new customers often burning out before they'd got their army built to play

Cyel wrote:
Yeah, I am trying too hard to read between the lines. It was my impression that he would like small formats to be the way to go with the game, and was not too happy with the opposition. But you're absolutely right, no such information appears in what he was saying.

That's what I got out of it too, and overall I agree with it wholeheartedly.

I think its interesting, when I look at it, because despite brawl machine being so much fun, I cannot help but think that Hungerford's vision of what the game should be, and PP's vision are very different things, and right now, I don't think WMH has a long lifespan ahead of it.

I hope I'm wrong, someday I would like to blow the dust off of my Skorne and Khador armies and play them again, but the further away we get from any meaningful release, and the more MonPoc and Warcaster take over the main focus of development, well, I think the time for the development of WMH is going to sit on standby for quite a while until something reignites it.

What that is that ignites it, I have no clue, hopefully, it happens and we see a renewed interest in the game, but I'm not holding out high hopes.

TBH @Seabass i dont mind if PP puts WM/H into "maintenance mode" and supports it through the release of RQ models, the odd faction update here and there and then more campaigns a-la oblivion to encourage new ways to play and develop the "non hardcore" crowd.

Realistically, how many more factions can the game really support now? The game does not need more models and factions, its needs increased exposure to new players, bringing in new blood, encourage more laid back and scenic play and PP also sort out their models, price points and supply/relationship with stores.

Im glad that PP are pursuing other projects