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Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 Monkeysloth wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:
That's basically what Guild Ball tried. They repackaged the game into a very board game style. Godtear is sold in a very similar manner. Clearly that wasn't a huge success for the former but the latter feels more built to support it so I suppose we'll see.

Personally, I find the static sculpts of pre-built PVC pretty limiting in this regard. I don't hate it all that much, but Guild Ball's move to boy band poses definitely dulled my interest compared to the original sculpts that conveyed a lot of motion. Godtear is a little hit or miss but the larger figures work better outside of swords and other thin pieces.


Just quoting this part but replying to the whole thread of yours.

Again I think it's what you want out of it. How many people who play wargames actually bother to ever do anything more the assemble the miniatures and prime them a base color? I don't know if we've ever really seen a good polling but it's at least half. How many people care if the parts are a bit bendy? I doubt many as well as back when I did frequent stores more often there sure where a lot of people with minis missing parts, having broken detail (as one drop and it can be done for). I know there's people that clearly care about painted armies and good looking casts but I do believe they're just the vocal minority in the community but they're more what the game manufacturers target as that group is the most likely to switch and start a new game and start word of mouth but it limits growth in the long term as there's a limit of who you can reach catering to that crowed.

I don't think what killed guildball was it's move to more static poses (though I can understand why you didn't like them) and I personally don't think easy to assemble pvc that's more dynamic would be that much of a barrier to a lot of people especially if it was just "glue this leg on" or, you know, they could just be assembled at the factory like Reaper Bones are for smaller things. It's all stuff that can be worked around, but SFG clearly just went the cheaper route (though I really like their PVC line and have it all). But I'm also not unaware of the huge upfront cost to release anything in PVC.

Maybe because of the cost of plastics and how metal and resin are so much more affordable to produce (and lower risk financially) and those inherently cater to a smaller group of people we really can't see a broader breakout of wargames until there's a 3dprinter that cheap enough, fast enough to replace the other means of production which could break that barrier to entry but still appease the hardcore wargamers that love the more hobby aspect. That might not be for say 20-30 years when maybe you can just buy all your minis pre-painted and pre-posed (how you want) and custom printed for not much more then we pay now. I do think the eventually future of the games (if they don't move 100% to AR) is a heroforged like system where you choose the character model/unit. Pose and choose equipment from what they're allowed to use and then order and you get them a few days later. Where a game store will fit into that I don't know.


It's definitely a curious thing to consider. You definitely see a good chunk of people that don't paint, but I'm not sure that means that model quality is unimportant to them. I've just not seen games without mediocre sculpts really take off (with perhaps the exception of Clix) but you see people playing games with gorgeous models and terrible rules all the time.

I think it comes down to inspiration. Even if you're not the best painter in the world, a good sculpt still tells a subconcious story that your imagination can more than make up for, particularly if you've seen a studio paint job on it. More than anything, new exciting releases seem to drive the hype cycle that determines what's hot. Even if its not for your faction, a big exciting release for a game seems to invigorate players into playing and buying more. The low hobby releases just haven't pulled that off with the exception of X-Wing.

Thinking on it, I'm curious how much that is a result of these games not having sculpts that excite players or whether it might have to do with release schedule logistics of outsourced manufacturing. It really seems like companies that go the PVC route in particular just don't have enough control over manufacturing timelines to be able to schedule new release hype.
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Longtime Dakkanaut





 LunarSol wrote:


It's definitely a curious thing to consider. You definitely see a good chunk of people that don't paint, but I'm not sure that means that model quality is unimportant to them. I've just not seen games without mediocre sculpts really take off (with perhaps the exception of Clix) but you see people playing games with gorgeous models and terrible rules all the time.

I think it comes down to inspiration. Even if you're not the best painter in the world, a good sculpt still tells a subconcious story that your imagination can more than make up for, particularly if you've seen a studio paint job on it.


This is an interesting point as it's very true. Well except the Clix don't have good sculpts, most of their sculpts are very good but painted very poorly and possibly translated poorly to the plastic being used. I can go back to some I have from 15 years ago and they look pretty good if they were painted decently. Which leads me to wonder how much is good sculpt needed as opposed to the overall marketing presentation of the model where it's generally painted really nice. Sometimes shown with scenery and such. Maybe people get that impression stuck in their head and see that even if they don't paint up their figure. They know what it should look like, surely everyone else does too so there's no need?

A common phrase up in the infinity news thread, you'd be familiar with but for others that don't know, is "it looks odd but I need to wait and see it painted" as many of the grays we see from pre-release announcements for that line really put off a number of people but once it's cast up and painted generally the opinions in the thread shift from slightly negative/neutral to somewhere along the positive.


More than anything, new exciting releases seem to drive the hype cycle that determines what's hot. Even if its not for your faction, a big exciting release for a game seems to invigorate players into playing and buying more. The low hobby releases just haven't pulled that off with the exception of X-Wing.

Thinking on it, I'm curious how much that is a result of these games not having sculpts that excite players or whether it might have to do with release schedule logistics of outsourced manufacturing. It really seems like companies that go the PVC route in particular just don't have enough control over manufacturing timelines to be able to schedule new release hype.


It's really hitting CMoN hard and I know SFG had issues with it. Even Reaper, who don't even have a wargame anymore, have trouble keeping some items in stock to the point they finally shifted some production to the us--but they have a bigger market reach then a lot of wargames being the biggest "generic, use anywhere" set of figures company out there. This is the real reason GW does most(all?) of their plastics in the UK in their own factories, as if something misses a date it's 100% their fault and something they can fix.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/15 19:43:56


 
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






Honestly if I didn't get to build and paint my minis I wouldn't be in wargaming. One of the biggest things that hit me when I tried TTS was that; they weren't my miniatures anymore.

Still trying to be more polite. If you catch me being toxic please call me on it.

Enjoying narrative before matched play, crusading on a path to glory! 
   
Made in us
Second Story Man




Astonished of Heck

 Monkeysloth wrote:
This is an interesting point as it's very true. Well except the Clix don't have good sculpts, most of their sculpts are very good but painted very poorly and possibly translated poorly to the plastic being used.

An interesting comparison is X-Wing versus Star Trek Attack Wing. Most of the rules are similar as WizKids got permission to use the core rules of X-Wing to create it, but they still used their Star Trek Clix with literally zero change at all. So the X-Wing ships look fresh and amazing while the STAttack Wing ships looked more like a MicroMachine knock off for quite a few years.

 Monkeysloth wrote:
A common phrase up in the infinity news thread, you'd be familiar with but for others that don't know, is "it looks odd but I need to wait and see it painted" as many of the grays we see from pre-release announcements for that line really put off a number of people but once it's cast up and painted generally the opinions in the thread shift from slightly negative/neutral to somewhere along the positive.

Interesting point is that FFG recently did their news announcements for Lando and Kallus in Legion. They provided one painted alongside with greys of the other build options. I think it is an effective strategy for this type of sculpt, even with "well known" characters.

Meanwhile, PP gives art promos and 2D images as pre-sculpt promo material.

Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Legion actually started with painted models, but the paint jobs really let the sculpts down. (I was STUNNED when I realized how badly the Han sculpt had been butchered by the studio paint job)

I do think shorter release windows are more effective these days. 3 months is a looooooong time for people to get hyped and get lured away by newer shinies before they have a chance to spend money.
   
Made in us
Grumpy Longbeard





washington state USA

After building and painting so many minis over the years i am pretty well tired of that side of the hobby. i still knock out the epic scale/battletech stuff pretty fast but as far as 28mm goes the only thing i am currently building up is a DUST FALLSCHIRMJÄGER army but i decided to go the premium route of fully assembled and painted. the quality is surprisingly very good. some of the facial features could use a little bit more work but overall it is top notch including textured bases and weathering/paint scoring.



GAMES-DUST1947/infinity/B5 wars/epic 40K/5th ed 40K/victory at sea/warmachine/battle tactics/monpoc/battletech/heavy gear 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Longtime Dakkanaut





 aphyon wrote:
After building and painting so many minis over the years i am pretty well tired of that side of the hobby. i still knock out the epic scale/battletech stuff pretty fast but as far as 28mm goes the only thing i am currently building up is a DUST FALLSCHIRMJÄGER army but i decided to go the premium route of fully assembled and painted. the quality is surprisingly very good. some of the facial features could use a little bit more work but overall it is top notch including textured bases and weathering/paint scoring.


For me it's assembling and prepping minis for painting as I really enjoy that part but man, I just hate wasting time putting things together. There's several models I wanted to paint this year but just the thought of assembling, greenstuffing areas where connections don't fit just kills my motivation.
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






Oh man we would be the perfect team.

Still trying to be more polite. If you catch me being toxic please call me on it.

Enjoying narrative before matched play, crusading on a path to glory! 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User





If anyone is interested, we've gotten a number of questions lately about what we're doing in the next year. This article attempts to answer those questions with a bit of a look behind the curtain at what Line of Sight has planned for early 2021. We are excited to share them with you, thank you for the tremendous support this year!

https://www.loswarmachine.com/reviews/2020/12/18/state-of-the-cast-2020-and-2021
   
Made in pl
Regular Dakkanaut




Nice!

I love map-based campaigns (have run plenty of them in WM&H* and WH40K) and board games like Twilight Imperium or A Game of Thrones are amongst my favourites, so Diplomachine is right up my alley

My current Polish Brawlmachine league was almost a Mordheim-like event with extra rules (too little interest in such a twist from the players, unfortunately) so I am interested in seeing your ideas in that area too.

If you create a ruleset for using WM&H models on rectangular trays from ASOIF too I'll have all my wargaming needs satisfied by a single collection of miniatures

*-a link to my WM&H one is a few posts back, if you're interested in my solutions.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/12/19 11:04:18


 
   
Made in us
Uhlan




I am pretty excited about the narrative leagues and Frostgrave-ish, Fallen Corvis that LOS is going to release for next year.

 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User





marxlives wrote:
I am pretty excited about the narrative leagues and Frostgrave-ish, Fallen Corvis that LOS is going to release for next year.


Well then you'll probably be happy about this:

If you're excited about Fallen Corvis, the new skirmish campaign based game we're developing set in a post infernal Corvis, then you might want to check this article out!

https://www.loswarmachine.com/fallen-corvis/2020/12/30/fallen-corvis-preparatory-announcement
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User





Welcome to the Beta Rules for Fallen Corvis, the Skirmish, Narrative Campaign game set in the Ruined City of Corvis! Come build a custom Warband, build up your equipment and abilities, accept Infernal Contracts to stave off death, and much more!

https://www.loswarmachine.com/fallen-corvis/2021/1/1/fallen-corvis-beta-rules-10-and-beta-sign-up
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




Looks interesting. Hope you get enough beta players in this Covid times
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User





Happy New Year everyone! We're kicking off this year right with a Brawlmachine Primer for Legion by our fantastic Phil!

https://www.loswarmachine.com/brawlmachine/2020/12/20/brawlmachine-list-building-legion-of-everblight

We also have some exciting news to share with everyone. In 2021, the Line of Sight family is expanding! We are excited to welcome Malorian Weekly with Malorian, Charge and Spike with Luis and Jay, Midnight Monpod with Garrett, and Vicarious Competition with Michael!

As part of this, we will be interviewing all of our content creators on the Line of Sight podcast over the next two months! Expect to hear from Tyrone and Ryan from Blightbringers, Emanuel from Field of Fire, and all of our new friends mentioned above as they come on to chat with us about their specialties.

ALSO, please sign up for the Fallen Corvis beta test if you're interested in being part of the future of narrative play in the Iron Kingdoms! Registration closes on January 8th.

https://www.loswarmachine.com/fallen-corvis/2021/1/2/fallen-corvis-quick-patch-update-101
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






Off topic sir! This is the 2020 discussion thread!!

Still trying to be more polite. If you catch me being toxic please call me on it.

Enjoying narrative before matched play, crusading on a path to glory! 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





I have to say, the Riot Quest releases really spiced up a lot of armies for me. Really looking forward to adding them in.
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Seattle, WA USA

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Off topic sir! This is the 2020 discussion thread!!
In a way it's pretty sad that the "state of Warmahordes" boils down to the fan community doing (what looks to be good) work because PP isn't.
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Valander wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Off topic sir! This is the 2020 discussion thread!!
In a way it's pretty sad that the "state of Warmahordes" boils down to the fan community doing (what looks to be good) work because PP isn't.


I thought this was discussed earlier as PP kind of doesn't do these things due to worry about angering the hard core base that doesn't think there should be anything but Steamroller. Hungerford did an interview last year kind of hinting at that when asked about Brawlmachine. But he also said that he did provide some feedback on Brawlmachine to the group making it. So PP could be helping out with some rules feedback for these new game modes too.

They're basically trapped by a base that only wants the game to be a narrow thing but they're also the people they buy the product. If they try to expand to bring in new people that base has expressed displeasure and PP isn't large enough atm to buck them since they're the companies main source of income. I think that's why they're doing other games too. That base really doesn't care that Riot Quest exists but does seam to care if more casual game modes are supported for Warmahordes. I've stopped trying to really keep track of all the ways the game is in a hole to be honest.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/04 18:26:14


 
   
Made in us
Second Story Man




Astonished of Heck

 Monkeysloth wrote:
 Valander wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Off topic sir! This is the 2020 discussion thread!!
In a way it's pretty sad that the "state of Warmahordes" boils down to the fan community doing (what looks to be good) work because PP isn't.


I thought this was discussed earlier as PP kind of doesn't do these things due to worry about angering the hard core base that doesn't think there should be anything but Steamroller. Hungerford did an interview last year kind of hinting at that when asked about Brawlmachine. But he also said that he did provide some feedback on Brawlmachine to the group making it. So PP could be helping out with some rules feedback for these new game modes too.

They're basically trapped by a base that only wants the game to be a narrow thing but they're also the people they buy the product. If they try to expand to bring in new people that base has expressed displeasure and PP isn't large enough atm to buck them since they're the companies main source of income. I think that's why they're doing other games too. That base really doesn't care that Riot Quest exists but does seam to care if more casual game modes are supported for Warmahordes. I've stopped trying to really keep track of all the ways the game is in a hole to be honest.

I think it's more that the competitive ones have sufficiently driven off most of the ones who are more interested in lighter avenues of the game such that when PP did introduce lighter aspects like Company of Iron or the Oblivion campaign, they weren't there to buy it in sufficient strength to justify pushing it farther, and that includes the content in No Quarter.

Of course, the other part of it is Line of Sight isn't selling it (yet), while PP took GW's route and sold those products, either directly like Oblivion, or indirectly through their periodical. PP never had the base that GW has to justify utilizing their more predatory practices would absorb.

Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

I think PP's best move is to use Warcaster to grow a fresh market and then release Warmachine MK4 off the back of Warcaster. Certainly some things - like summoning units into battle -really works well and would be a boon for a game like Warmachine where you've a lot of units and variety and might help settle some of the desire to have more variety without bloating the game with specific niche build systems etc...

Certainly I think PP needs to end MK3 and have a big reviaval MK4 perhaps even going back a step away from the online system and going back toward books, cards and a steadier more stable rules system that blends hobby, lore and wargaming. Rather than their current system which seems to cater only toward the highly competitive crowd.

   
Made in us
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Right behind you.

Looking Ahead to 2021 article. There's some really cool stuff in there, and I like the "Cadres" for Warcaster.

Is there anything similar in Warmahordes currently?
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 Kanluwen wrote:
Looking Ahead to 2021 article. There's some really cool stuff in there, and I like the "Cadres" for Warcaster.

Is there anything similar in Warmahordes currently?


I suppose it depends how its implemented. Could be similar to say, Warcaster Units or Companion models.
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

Must make a note to keep an eye out for the Iron Kingdoms KS - I enjoyed their Warmachine and Hordes art book and rpg books are often very neat lore and story and art books in their own right

   
Made in us
Rogue Grot Kannon Gunna





Atlanta, GA

 Kanluwen wrote:
Looking Ahead to 2021 article. There's some really cool stuff in there, and I like the "Cadres" for Warcaster.

Is there anything similar in Warmahordes currently?


I really wish they had covered their production issues in this Look Ahead article. As a casual gamer who really enjoys the painting and modeling side of the hobby, I find it really off-putting that so many of the core units and warjacks for Warmachine and Hordes are still in that terrible soft plastic. It's not fun to assemble and paint, and ends up more frustrating than anything. Yes, I know that apparently their Chinese manufacturer is holding their molds hostage or something. Some kind of statement addressing their plans moving forward would have been nice. Really, I'd pay more for units produced in resin or pewter because it means higher quality than soft plastic.

I know I'm beating a personal dead horse here, but until PP gets their miniature production figured out and possibly produces new sculpts in a different material for WMH, I'll probably continue to sit the game out and won't make anymore purchases.

Also as a casual gamer: forget Steamroller and bring out more friendly game formats.
   
Made in us
Second Story Man




Astonished of Heck

Kanluwen wrote:Looking Ahead to 2021 article. There's some really cool stuff in there, and I like the "Cadres" for Warcaster.

Is there anything similar in Warmahordes currently?

It largely depends on what "cadres" end up being.

If they are a group of models one could end up building a themed army build, like say the Protectorate's Knights Exemplar or Cygnar's Trenchers, then yes, they exist.

Until more information comes out, though, it is hard to say.

Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
 
   
Made in us
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Right behind you.

So far, what we've seen with Cadres:
Marcher Worlds:
Spoiler:



Aeternus Continuum:
Spoiler:



I think you might be right on it being THEME FORCE! Warcaster though:
Elsewhere, across the universe, a new war storms across the Thousand Worlds of the Hyperuranion. The third Kickstarter campaign for Warcaster: Neo-Mechanika will kick off mid-year with expansions for all four of Warcaster’s Factions, introducing new Cadres into the game for the first time. Each Cadre will consist of an assortment of elite models as well as a special centerpiece to expand the armies of Warcaster with new powers and abilities.
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






Something I've been wondering; how does a battle between 6-10 individuals even matter to a setting with 1000 worlds and presumably hundreds of billions of people?

As for those previews, the longer I go the more tired I get of the 'supermodel with skin-tight plating' look. But I get that I am in the minority. Like that first one though. Have my eye raised for the cloak on the third one as it has the look of a piece that will look like a lump of wet dough in person.

Still trying to be more polite. If you catch me being toxic please call me on it.

Enjoying narrative before matched play, crusading on a path to glory! 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





I read it as theme forces from the text as well, but the concept art specifically names the model Air Assault Cadre, which implies its more a new unit type than an army construction concept.
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

Looking at other firms one way they've achieved smaller numbers of boxed sets on shelves is battle teams within armies.

So rather than what Warmachine has which are whole armies of Themed Forces, which can sometimes have a starting box ,but which the numbers make them very expensive. Instead having perhaps 4 or 5 models of different types that are sold in the same box and deployed in the same group to the table.

My impression is that Warcaster, at least at present (and for the next few years at least) focuses more on the idea of summoning in what you need from a faction pool rather than building from a faction limited subgroup to start with.

   
 
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