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Made in gb
Mysterious Techpriest






 Albertorius wrote:

By that definition, Bolt Action is IGOUGO. You understand that's not how things are, right?

by that definition a game of chess is a single turn. but it isn't.

 Albertorius wrote:
the actual definition of IGOUGO is "In my turn, I make all of the moves/actions with all of the units in my whole army. In your turn, you make all of the moves/actions with all of the units in your whole army. Rinse and repeat".

No, thats a whole bunch of bloat to adapt the premise to 40k nomenclature.

The actual definition is "a two player game in which one player completes a turn as defined by the rules after which the opposing player completes one turn as defined by the rules; this process repeats until a predefined win state is achieved, as defined by the rules"

Snakes and ladders is IGOUGO.
Hungry-hungry hippos is concurrent turns.
Alternating activation is a sub-mechanic to IGOUGO.

 Albertorius wrote:
you don't know what IGOUGO means.

 Albertorius wrote:
the term IGOUGO itself isn't really all that clear


umm...


 Albertorius wrote:
EDIT: Just as an addicional case in point, Easy E did a quite thorough post of the usually defined kinds of games:

Spoiler:
 Easy E wrote:
Usually IGOUGO is contrasted with:

Alternate Activation: One unit/model activates, does its thing, and then the opponent chooses a unit and does stuff. Deadzone and Void.

Reaction Activation: A player activates and does stuff, until the opponent tries to "interrupt" or "react" and take over activation. Force-on-Force of Infinity

Activation by Phase: One player does all their movement, then the next player does their movement, then the first player does all their shooting, etc. Play alternates by game phase between players. I can't think of an example right now.

Bid System: Players bid resources to try and gain the ability to activate a unit. Men of Bronze

Chit Draw/Random Activation: A player pulls a marker out of a bog/rolls a dice, or draws a card which says which units can activate. This allows you to trade-off and not know who will get to do something next. Bolt Action

Initiative Order: The order in which units activate is dictated by the turn sequence or a stat rank. I.e. Tanks activate before infantry. Once all the appropriate unit types activate and do stuff, then units further down the list can activate. Dux Bellorum

Proceed until Failed: The player chooses a unit and makes a command check. If passed, the unit can act. If failed play turns over to the opponent. Blood Bowl, Warmaster, Lion Rampant, and the Warlord mass battle games.


Those are all sub-mechanics to 'liven up' IGOUGO.

 Albertorius wrote:
IGOUGO is not inherently bad and other systems good. It all depends on how you use it.


Yeah, agreed. as i posted earlier everyone actually likes it they just don't realise it yet.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-px27tzAtVwZpZ4ljopV2w "ashtrays and teacups do not count as cover"
"jack of all trades, master of none; certainly better than a master of one"
The Ordo Reductor - the guy's who make wonderful things like the Landraider Achillies, but can't use them in battle..  
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




 SirDonlad wrote:
Spoiler:
 Albertorius wrote:

By that definition, Bolt Action is IGOUGO. You understand that's not how things are, right?

by that definition a game of chess is a single turn. but it isn't.

 Albertorius wrote:
the actual definition of IGOUGO is "In my turn, I make all of the moves/actions with all of the units in my whole army. In your turn, you make all of the moves/actions with all of the units in your whole army. Rinse and repeat".

No, thats a whole bunch of bloat to adapt the premise to 40k nomenclature.

The actual definition is "a two player game in which one player completes a turn as defined by the rules after which the opposing player completes one turn as defined by the rules; this process repeats until a predefined win state is achieved, as defined by the rules"

Snakes and ladders is IGOUGO.
Hungry-hungry hippos is concurrent turns.
Alternating activation is a sub-mechanic to IGOUGO.

 Albertorius wrote:
you don't know what IGOUGO means.

 Albertorius wrote:
the term IGOUGO itself isn't really all that clear


umm...


 Albertorius wrote:
EDIT: Just as an addicional case in point, Easy E did a quite thorough post of the usually defined kinds of games:

 Easy E wrote:
Usually IGOUGO is contrasted with:

Alternate Activation: One unit/model activates, does its thing, and then the opponent chooses a unit and does stuff. Deadzone and Void.

Reaction Activation: A player activates and does stuff, until the opponent tries to "interrupt" or "react" and take over activation. Force-on-Force of Infinity

Activation by Phase: One player does all their movement, then the next player does their movement, then the first player does all their shooting, etc. Play alternates by game phase between players. I can't think of an example right now.

Bid System: Players bid resources to try and gain the ability to activate a unit. Men of Bronze

Chit Draw/Random Activation: A player pulls a marker out of a bog/rolls a dice, or draws a card which says which units can activate. This allows you to trade-off and not know who will get to do something next. Bolt Action

Initiative Order: The order in which units activate is dictated by the turn sequence or a stat rank. I.e. Tanks activate before infantry. Once all the appropriate unit types activate and do stuff, then units further down the list can activate. Dux Bellorum

Proceed until Failed: The player chooses a unit and makes a command check. If passed, the unit can act. If failed play turns over to the opponent. Blood Bowl, Warmaster, Lion Rampant, and the Warlord mass battle games.


Those are all sub-mechanics to 'liven up' IGOUGO.

 Albertorius wrote:
IGOUGO is not inherently bad and other systems good. It all depends on how you use it.


Yeah, agreed. as i posted earlier everyone actually likes it they just don't realise it yet.


Why has the validity of AA in a large scale wargame devolved into semantics about IGOUGO?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/06/30 15:10:02


 
   
Made in gb
Mysterious Techpriest






Usual forum stuff.
Someone doesn't like something; someone else does like the thing.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-px27tzAtVwZpZ4ljopV2w "ashtrays and teacups do not count as cover"
"jack of all trades, master of none; certainly better than a master of one"
The Ordo Reductor - the guy's who make wonderful things like the Landraider Achillies, but can't use them in battle..  
   
Made in ca
Ancient Venerable Dreadnought






Tittliewinks22 wrote:
 SirDonlad wrote:
Spoiler:
 Albertorius wrote:

By that definition, Bolt Action is IGOUGO. You understand that's not how things are, right?

by that definition a game of chess is a single turn. but it isn't.

 Albertorius wrote:
the actual definition of IGOUGO is "In my turn, I make all of the moves/actions with all of the units in my whole army. In your turn, you make all of the moves/actions with all of the units in your whole army. Rinse and repeat".

No, thats a whole bunch of bloat to adapt the premise to 40k nomenclature.

The actual definition is "a two player game in which one player completes a turn as defined by the rules after which the opposing player completes one turn as defined by the rules; this process repeats until a predefined win state is achieved, as defined by the rules"

Snakes and ladders is IGOUGO.
Hungry-hungry hippos is concurrent turns.
Alternating activation is a sub-mechanic to IGOUGO.

 Albertorius wrote:
you don't know what IGOUGO means.



 Albertorius wrote:
the term IGOUGO itself isn't really all that clear


umm...


 Albertorius wrote:
EDIT: Just as an addicional case in point, Easy E did a quite thorough post of the usually defined kinds of games:

 Easy E wrote:
Usually IGOUGO is contrasted with:

Alternate Activation: One unit/model activates, does its thing, and then the opponent chooses a unit and does stuff. Deadzone and Void.

Reaction Activation: A player activates and does stuff, until the opponent tries to "interrupt" or "react" and take over activation. Force-on-Force of Infinity

Activation by Phase: One player does all their movement, then the next player does their movement, then the first player does all their shooting, etc. Play alternates by game phase between players. I can't think of an example right now.

Bid System: Players bid resources to try and gain the ability to activate a unit. Men of Bronze

Chit Draw/Random Activation: A player pulls a marker out of a bog/rolls a dice, or draws a card which says which units can activate. This allows you to trade-off and not know who will get to do something next. Bolt Action

Initiative Order: The order in which units activate is dictated by the turn sequence or a stat rank. I.e. Tanks activate before infantry. Once all the appropriate unit types activate and do stuff, then units further down the list can activate. Dux Bellorum

Proceed until Failed: The player chooses a unit and makes a command check. If passed, the unit can act. If failed play turns over to the opponent. Blood Bowl, Warmaster, Lion Rampant, and the Warlord mass battle games.


Those are all sub-mechanics to 'liven up' IGOUGO.

 Albertorius wrote:
IGOUGO is not inherently bad and other systems good. It all depends on how you use it.


Yeah, agreed. as i posted earlier everyone actually likes it they just don't realise it yet.


Why has the validity of AA in a large scale wargame devolved into semantics about IGOUGO?


Because you dont understand. some one was WRONG on the INTERNET!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/06/30 15:24:17


To many unpainted models to count. 
   
Made in es
Inspiring SDF-1 Bridge Officer






 SirDonlad wrote:
No, thats a whole bunch of bloat to adapt the premise to 40k nomenclature.

The actual definition is "a two player game in which one player completes a turn as defined by the rules after which the opposing player completes one turn as defined by the rules; this process repeats until a predefined win state is achieved, as defined by the rules"

You keep saying that, but the only one who thinks that is you.

But seeing there's a fundamental difference of definition here, I don't feel continuing the discussion has any merit.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/06/30 15:41:37


 
   
Made in gb
Mysterious Techpriest






That will be the definition you'll get given at a university level.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-px27tzAtVwZpZ4ljopV2w "ashtrays and teacups do not count as cover"
"jack of all trades, master of none; certainly better than a master of one"
The Ordo Reductor - the guy's who make wonderful things like the Landraider Achillies, but can't use them in battle..  
   
Made in es
Inspiring SDF-1 Bridge Officer






 SirDonlad wrote:
That will be the definition you'll get given at a university level.


As soon as there was a "gaming university", surely.
   
Made in gb
Mysterious Techpriest






There was a 'computer gaming design' course at my uni that was regarded very highly - a bunch of big named developer houses involved etc.

They go over things from the basic principles of 'play' and why humans do it, all the way through programming tools and into machine code, binary maths, bitwise operations etc.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-px27tzAtVwZpZ4ljopV2w "ashtrays and teacups do not count as cover"
"jack of all trades, master of none; certainly better than a master of one"
The Ordo Reductor - the guy's who make wonderful things like the Landraider Achillies, but can't use them in battle..  
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




 SirDonlad wrote:
There was a 'computer gaming design' course at my uni that was regarded very highly - a bunch of big named developer houses involved etc.

They go over things from the basic principles of 'play' and why humans do it, all the way through programming tools and into machine code, binary maths, bitwise operations etc.


You got early access to Liber: Mechanicum???
   
Made in gb
Mysterious Techpriest






Tittliewinks22 wrote:
Spoiler:
 SirDonlad wrote:
There was a 'computer gaming design' course at my uni that was regarded very highly - a bunch of big named developer houses involved etc.

They go over things from the basic principles of 'play' and why humans do it, all the way through programming tools and into machine code, binary maths, bitwise operations etc.


You got early access to Liber: Mechanicum???


The IRL version, yeah..

Spoiler:


Am i going nuts or does it feel like the electropreists are getting a renaming with this new unit 'Arcuitor Magisterum'?

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-px27tzAtVwZpZ4ljopV2w "ashtrays and teacups do not count as cover"
"jack of all trades, master of none; certainly better than a master of one"
The Ordo Reductor - the guy's who make wonderful things like the Landraider Achillies, but can't use them in battle..  
   
Made in ca
Ancient Venerable Dreadnought






Tittliewinks22 wrote:
 SirDonlad wrote:
There was a 'computer gaming design' course at my uni that was regarded very highly - a bunch of big named developer houses involved etc.

They go over things from the basic principles of 'play' and why humans do it, all the way through programming tools and into machine code, binary maths, bitwise operations etc.


You got early access to Liber: Mechanicum???


Its not been fully leaked yet, the most we have is the unit index sheet, and a phase 1 draft copy, supposedly.

To many unpainted models to count. 
   
Made in us
Powerful Ushbati





United States

Has anyone out there come across any good STLs that would be a good stand in for a Disintegrator Pistol/Rifle? As far as I can tell, there isn't any official bits for them.
   
Made in es
Inspiring SDF-1 Bridge Officer






 Togusa wrote:
Has anyone out there come across any good STLs that would be a good stand in for a Disintegrator Pistol/Rifle? As far as I can tell, there isn't any official bits for them.


Search for "Eradicator Gun" at Cults.
   
Made in ca
Ancient Venerable Dreadnought






 Togusa wrote:
Has anyone out there come across any good STLs that would be a good stand in for a Disintegrator Pistol/Rifle? As far as I can tell, there isn't any official bits for them.


pop goes the monkey just put out some to buy runs of.

To many unpainted models to count. 
   
Made in us
Powerful Ushbati





United States

 Albertorius wrote:
 Togusa wrote:
Has anyone out there come across any good STLs that would be a good stand in for a Disintegrator Pistol/Rifle? As far as I can tell, there isn't any official bits for them.


Search for "Eradicator Gun" at Cults.


Wow. I searched Cults up and down yesterday and never came across these. Thanks!
   
Made in us
Storm Trooper with Maglight



Cadia

 SirDonlad wrote:
The actual definition is "a two player game in which one player completes a turn as defined by the rules after which the opposing player completes one turn as defined by the rules; this process repeats until a predefined win state is achieved, as defined by the rules"


Um, no. That can be your personal definition but in a wargaming context that is not what IGOUGO means. The context of wargaming IGOUGO means you act with your entire force, then your opponent acts with their entire force, repeat until the game ends.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Frankly I'm just bored with alternating activations, everybody and their dog outside GW has been doing it for 10+ years straight now with barely any innovation. You can tout it as "superior" to IGOUGO all you want, it's not any more interesting or enjoyable to play at this point. I look forward to IGOUGO with a bit of reaction spice for a change of pace.


Maybe the fact that GW is the only one still clinging to IGOUGO should be a hint that it's a bad mechanic?

 SirDonlad wrote:
I think you hit the nail on the head about 'pace' of games.
IGOUGO gives you time to ponder while the opponent has their turn.
alternating activation keeps you occupied more consistently over a span of time which i go for when i'm feeling it (adeptus titanicus, IK:renegade) but i like the tactical ponder because i feel like i'm actually being social while i play.


And it creates that pondering time by stripping out most of the strategic depth from the game and reducing it to an exchange of attack dice until someone runs out of models. IGOGUO gives you nothing meaningful to ponder but lets you ponder it for half an hour while your opponent finishes their turn.

THE PLANET BROKE BEFORE THE GUARD! 
   
Made in si
Ravenous Beast Form







 SirDonlad wrote:
There was a 'computer gaming design' course at my uni that was regarded very highly - a bunch of big named developer houses involved etc.

They go over things from the basic principles of 'play' and why humans do it, all the way through programming tools and into machine code, binary maths, bitwise operations etc.


Ah yes the classic hubris of "this is what my professor said, so decades of real world useage are invalid now and we're gonna use my made up definition"


Automatically Appended Next Post:
CadianSgtBob wrote:
Maybe the fact that GW is the only one still clinging to IGOUGO should be a hint that it's a bad mechanic?


Ah, you're one of the "my personal preferences are objective scientific fact" people, gotcha. Off to the ignore list.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/06/30 21:28:16


Posters on ignore list: 35

40k Potica Edition - 40k patch with reactions, suppression and all that good stuff. Feedback thread here.

Gangs of Nu Ork - Necromunda / Gorkamorka expansion supporting all faction. Feedback thread here
   
Made in us
Storm Trooper with Maglight



Cadia

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Ah, you're one of the "my personal preferences are objective scientific fact" people, gotcha. Off to the ignore list.


Ah, so you're one of those people who don't understand "it's not an airport, you don't have to announce your departure" and consider the ignore list a tool for winning internet arguments. Gotcha.

THE PLANET BROKE BEFORE THE GUARD! 
   
Made in us
Powerful Ushbati





United States

Could we please take the IGOUGO crap to its own thread...this argument has crossed the lines of being old and is now just straight up infuriating. Especially when it grows a new hydra head in literally every other GW rules discussion on the whole dang board. For years.

Jebus mates get a hobby or something.
   
Made in gb
Mysterious Techpriest






Time to give my opinion on heresy 2.0.
"Where did the Ordo Reductor go?"

On the mechanicum front i saw that we basically get to do overwatch as it was in 4th.
If i knew i had my artillery formations still that would be great.
But seriously as an Ordo Reductor player i'm getting stiffed here based on the index of the liber mechanicum.

Ordo Reductor Artillery Tank isn't in there any more, same with archmagos reductor, Inmar Satarael, Archmagos Draycavac, classic imperial knights...

This has the feel of when they released book 3 and i had three land raiders i wasn't able to use any more. The Ordo Reductor LR was awesome.

I have to see what the three pages of "The Orders of High Techno Arcana" contain in case they have hidden Reductor and Cybernetica in there but i don't have a good feeling about it.

maybe they'll throw us a bone and let us stea.. >ahem< 'requisition' anything imperial?

hopes and dreams to end the nightmare please.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2022/06/30 22:22:52


https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-px27tzAtVwZpZ4ljopV2w "ashtrays and teacups do not count as cover"
"jack of all trades, master of none; certainly better than a master of one"
The Ordo Reductor - the guy's who make wonderful things like the Landraider Achillies, but can't use them in battle..  
   
Made in gb
Never Forget Isstvan!






Knights and characters are in their own section on the contents page, except Caleb Decima for some reason.
   
Made in gb
Mysterious Techpriest






 Gert wrote:
Knights and characters are in their own section on the contents page, except Caleb Decima for some reason.

Are you talking about one of the other books? i'm confused.
this is the contents page i've been going by so far


I just noticed the Macrocarid Explorator is gone too.

Man, the more you look the more you see how much is missing.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/06/30 23:17:23


https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-px27tzAtVwZpZ4ljopV2w "ashtrays and teacups do not count as cover"
"jack of all trades, master of none; certainly better than a master of one"
The Ordo Reductor - the guy's who make wonderful things like the Landraider Achillies, but can't use them in battle..  
   
Made in gb
Never Forget Isstvan!






16 pages for Knights my guy and 5 for Persona Schismata. Also GW confirmed that Knights would be in the Mechanicum book.
   
Made in ca
Ancient Venerable Dreadnought






 Gert wrote:
16 pages for Knights my guy and 5 for Persona Schismata. Also GW confirmed that Knights would be in the Mechanicum book.


The only thing im wondering is if the dominus knight is in there. the rough draft leaks dont have them listed.

The other thing that was not listed that has me super sad/worried, is it looks like they got rid of the pilot system which is really unfortunate because i LOVED the pilot system for HH 1.0 like OMG that made them so amazingly fun.

To many unpainted models to count. 
   
Made in us
Morphing Obliterator





I'm hoping we get the daemon pdf soon so that the ability to take them in Word Bearers Dark Brethren army is available.
   
Made in gb
Mysterious Techpriest






 Gert wrote:
16 pages for Knights my guy and 5 for Persona Schismata. Also GW confirmed that Knights would be in the Mechanicum book.

ah, didn't realize they were dumping characters there.
I should have been able to tell that from the title of the book.
i suppose they'll dump the secutarii hoplites peltasts and axiarch in with the imperial knights but then i don't understand why the knight moirax are in the liber mechanicum

anyone got any lore memories of an "arctuitor magisterium"?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/06/30 23:51:51


https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-px27tzAtVwZpZ4ljopV2w "ashtrays and teacups do not count as cover"
"jack of all trades, master of none; certainly better than a master of one"
The Ordo Reductor - the guy's who make wonderful things like the Landraider Achillies, but can't use them in battle..  
   
Made in gb
Never Forget Isstvan!






 SirDonlad wrote:
i suppose they'll dump the secutarii hoplites peltasts and axiarch in with the imperial knights but then i don't understand why the knight moirax are in the liber mechanicum

They'll likely be in the Titan Legions section.
   
Made in gb
Mysterious Techpriest






yeah, you're probably right.

I'm going to have to wait till i get hold of a copy.

might have to make a thread to cover all the Ordo Reductor flavour which is being cut.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/01 00:21:11


https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-px27tzAtVwZpZ4ljopV2w "ashtrays and teacups do not count as cover"
"jack of all trades, master of none; certainly better than a master of one"
The Ordo Reductor - the guy's who make wonderful things like the Landraider Achillies, but can't use them in battle..  
   
Made in us
Blessed Living Saint




On the Internet

I have to stand corrected for a post I made earlier: Talent For Murder doesn't let you rend or breach easier.

So much to learn and so easy to miss stuff.
   
Made in ca
Ancient Venerable Dreadnought






I just want pilots

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/01 01:37:21


To many unpainted models to count. 
   
 
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