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Do these things have any value at all? I mean, can they even be used effectively, or is taking a CC dread entirely pointless and just throwing points away because it is never going to make it in. I am just wondering, Because I built one to go with my army theme and I think the model is cool but I am wondering if it has any tactical use in my army or if I should just keep it on the shelf until APOC games.

They have plenty of value. With two Dreadnought Close Combat Weapons you get an extra attack on top of the A3 that a Chaos Dreadnought already has, fire frenzies become less painful, and that occasional Fleet move increases in value.

Plus they look really cool.

Bear in mind that Nurglitch lives in a Panglossian world where chanting "tactics! creativity! table-top conditions!" makes every unit wonderful, even MM Dev squads.

On reality A, pure CC Dreads are really kind of crap. A Dread with 1 CCW already has 3 attacks that it may not even get to use; why would you choose one more attack over, say, a missile launcher for the same cost? Fire Frenzy nothing--shoot a frag at your Marines and place it so it hits one model. Not so scary, is it?

yeah...

CC Dreads arn't that bad, and they are cheap!
If you have a CC dread paired off with Missile Launcher armed dread; should the ML dread roll a 1 you can chose to fire frag missiles at its brother dread... next nil chance of damage even on rear armour. fireing is done in the shooting phase so you can turn the other dread so that side or front armour is facing...

Plus while the enemy shoots at you CC dread (this will happen more as it gets closer the enemy)... they are not shooting at the other softer stuff DPs/oblits etc...

If a CC dread gets into combat wiith a squad with no weapons with strength over 5 then they can not hurt it and stay in combat till they are all dead.

I also put dreads of both CC and ranged variety with some spawn together at the same part of the board... who cares if you roll a one and hopefully something will reach combat... this is also a good sheild for better troops...

Panic
yeah...

Chaos CC dreads are as bad as regular dreads (those suck too) but don't get to decide what to do (suffer from frenzy) and can't be drop podded (so they get shot up).

They're the only models of my own I've thrown like a baseball and destroyed. Totally worthless units.

Panic raises a good point: Such Dreadnoughts are cheap. You can take three for 300 points. If you're into dirty tricks, you can give them safe passage up the board using a Rhino wall technique, or use Raptor and Biker squads to range ahead and tie up or destroy the opposing force's anti-tank forces. In particular Dreadnoughts are great for ripping apart Plague Marines, enemy Terminators, and a Chaos Dreadnought has good odds against stuff like Elite Carnifexes.

The problem with the Chaos Dreadnought equipped for CC happens to be the same problem that the Carnifex equipped for CC suffers from. Unless you can pod the thing (and I don't know if you can or not, I don't own the codex), chances are it will never see close combat, unless your opponent wants it to.

Yeah, it can occasionally get a fleet move, but is that reliable enough for a model that gets a 6" move and assault? Chances are they aren't.

That depends on what's going on in the game and what your opponent is trying to do. If the enemy is trying to close with you like Devourer-armed Carnifexes and Tyrants, then keep your Dreadnought close to the squads they're be going after.

Likewise if there's an objective in between deployment zones that needs capturing, then sending your Dreadnought in that direction will let them meet the enemy in the middle, rather than trying to slog all the way over to the other deployment zone.

Likewise Drop-Podding Marines and Deep Strike armies will either land close enough for your Dreadnought to charge in and mess them up, or far enough away that all the points spent on enabling such Deep Strikes will be wasted.

There are plenty of situations and opportunities in which the enemy will come to you, and in those situations a Dreadnought armed with two Dreadnought Close Combat Weapons are useful. If your opponent doesn't oblige you by closing, you can use that reticence against them via your own Deep Strike units or Tank Shock, and if they do, then it's gravy. Remember, you can use the threat of that assault to control where your opponent moves and when they move.

I think part of the problem with Dreadnoughts that some people fail to understand is that they excel in support, not in engaging stuff by themselves. They work best in combination with other units, particular Terminators where they can distract enemy weapons away from the more expensive Terminators, and harrow a unit before the Terminators get stuck in.

And, of course, when 5th edition rolls by, Dreadnoughts might be able to run (like Fleet but no assaults afterwards), which will be useful for Dreadnoughts like Furioso and Chaos Dreadnoughts.

@ Nurglitch
I see what you are saying and this is good to hear. I will try out some stuff, especially the rhino wall. Hopefully it will work.

Stelek wrote:They're the only models of my own I've thrown like a baseball and destroyed. Totally worthless units.

Did you just say what I think you just said?

Did the other guy toss you head first through a plate-glass window?

Viperion

At Nurglitch.

I think a Dread against a Godzilla list may not be a good idea. He is only what, armor 12 12 10? You've practically given the obligatory gunfex trio( or even worse, the gunfex duo with warp-blasting Zoanthropes) a target. If your opponent feels so inclined, even a flying tyrant could mess it up in hand-to hand on the charge, or maneuver to shoot him in the back.

As for objective grabbing, sure, if you can deploy close enough. But then he's waiting to be shot off of it. I don't exactly like the idea of "Heavy Support" that doesn't, well, support anything. Your results may vary.

If you are going up against podders, then if he dropped with no AT, then he's got a problem. But meltas are pretty common in podder lists aren't they? You can deploy such that podding behind the dread is impossible to limit plasma effectiveness, but the point of a pod army is to deploy your forces to obliterate the chosen portion of the enemy force, while at the same time deploying a wall of cheap pod armor between your guys and the rest. A good podder retains the choice to engage the dread on his own terms with the part of his army specifically designed for it, or ignore it, kill your dreadnoughts support, and deal with him later.

Deepstriking IG suicide vets should waste him too. 90 points vaping a 120+ points heavy support choice that prevented you from taking Oblits? I imagine most would make the trade.

The problem with a slow model that is fairly vulnerable to light AT and extremely vulnerable to high end AT is that he doesn't truly control anything. Especially when he has no option to fight back whenever you meet a shooty army. At best, a CC Chaos dread is a model that will be ignored as it does nothing proactive besides act as countercharge to a castling Chaos army.

You can't really block dreads with rhinos.

Rhinos blow up, (yes, the turn after smoke), then the dreads blow up.

===========================

Why would the other guy throw me through a plate glass window?

They were my figs. I don't throw figs at people, silly.

I tossed them into the corner of the garage we were playing in, and they shattered with a satisfying crunch.

Railguns: Chaos Dreadnoughts are Elite units.

Yup, a Chaos Dreadnought only has Armour 12/12/10. That just means you shouldn't stand around in the open like a big target. Unlike a Dreadnought armed with long range weapons like Lascannons, Autocannons, or Missile Launchers, taking it out of line of sight doesn't waste any points.

The point of objective grabbing isn't to go sit on an objective and get shot off of it, that's pretty silly for a unit with no long ranged heavy weapon. The point is to go help assault whatever has captured that objective first. An objective that's 24" away will usually take three turns to arrive at, which is plenty of time for something faster and squishier to get there first. They may not be Heavy Support, but they're good at supporting assaults with their S10 Power weapons and unit strength of 10.

A Flying Hive Tyrant can destroy a Chaos Dreadnought. After all, the Dreadnought is only I4. In attempting to do so the Flying Hive Tyrant takes the (small) risk of attacking something that can kill it in a single round of close combat, that might last long enough for other Chaos stuff like Terminators, Spawn, and so on to come in.

Remember that if a Hive Tyrant beats a Chaos Dreadnought in one on one combat, that means it must have destroyed that Dreadnought. If it destroys that Dreadnought it scores an automatic Massacre! result, and may consolidate D6". This means, pleasantly, that you can use that Dreadnought as bait. Your opponent can take the bait and risk getting his Hive Tyrant's ass torn off that turn or shot off in the following turn. Or your opponent can ignore the Dreadnought and leave it free to molest Carnifexes.

Similarly, if you're going up against a Drop Pod army, you can deploy so that your army can't be picked off piecemeal. Indeed, such a Drop Podding army is the ideal foe for a Chaos Dreadnought because the enemy arrives within reach having not taken the time to shoot up the units guarding its back (such as Rhinos). I always plump for the Heavy Flamethrower upgrade, and in these situations it really shines because the Dreadnought is usually close enough after a move that roasting a unit with it won't prevent charging in to slaughter the survivors.

Ahh, they're elites. Thanks, I must've got them confused.

So.. If you don't want it standing around in the open... what is it going to do then? Move through cover even more slowly and risk getting immobilized? I don't see the difference here. It still has to advance, it still has to catch something. Hiding is not an option.

Again, against a Godzilla force, the thing has to worry about the Venom Cannons and possible Warp blasts sure to be aimed at it. It isn't like you are going to have an overabundance of armor for the venom cannons to shoot at unless you go further and take chaos predators . Any hits glance on 2's, and penetrate on 3+. It will not go unmolested unless, as you said, you hide it to take it out of line of sight so that the dreadnought is a non-issue for the Nid player anyway. Most armies will have more than enough lascannons or railguns just drooling for such a thing to shoot at anyway.

For the Tyrant to be baited into being in a lethal fire-zone after destroying a dreadnought, we are also assuming that the Tyranid player must at least be aware of the fact. A dreadnought is slow, and like I said, will only be charged when it is convenient for the enemy unless they are morbidly afraid of it for some odd reason. Even as bait, it offers you no control of the battlefield because it is just too slow. Flyrants operate in the open anyway, either shooting things to death with devourers or charging targets of opportunity. It isn't like you have to bait the thing to be able to shoot at it.

No offense intended, but everything you have used as a counter-argument seems, well, a non-argument.

Railguns: Hiding is indeed an option. It is a particularly useful option when survivability is preferable to shooting back. Moreover one can advance while hiding, if the terrain allows it, so hiding will not make the Dreadnought a non-issue to the Tyranid player. That's one of the handy things about Walker vehicles, they can advance through difficult terrain. The fact that the Tyranid player cannot shoot it (or shoot it as easily) as it advances into position (or simply waits in position) to assault will actually increase its threat.

But a Dreadnought does not need to constantly advance if the enemy is moving towards it. And as people on these boards continually point out, there is the Lash of Submission is you really want to bring targets closer. In the case of armies like Tyranids or Orks, it can simply wait or use its movement laterally to better position itself.

Considering that a Chaos Marine army can include Rhinos, Predators, Defilers, and Daemon Princes, as well as up to three Dreadnoughts, I'd say that Dreadnoughts have plenty of opportunity to avoid Venom Cannon and Barbed Strangler fire purely by target saturation. The Venom Cannon can only inflict Glancing hits on the Dreadnought, and the Barbed Strangler would require a 4 to Glance, and a 5+ to Penetrate. I'd certainly prefer a Chaos Dreadnought, and a cheap one at that, to suffer the effects of a Barbed Strangler than any infantry squads I have knocking around (particularly the ones with the Lascannons bent on knocking said Stranglers out).

In discussing baiting a Flying Hive Tyrant to assault a Chaos Dreadnought with two Dreadnought Close Combat Weapons we are obviously discussing that the Tyranid player is aware of that fact. That's why I addressed it as a catch-22 whereby the player isn't so much taking bait unawares, but forced to judge between doing something dangerous and doing something even more dangerous.

As I pointed out, such a Chaos Dreadnought is well-equipped to deal with Elite Carnifex units that must advance to within 18" of infantry units to really make themselves useful. A Chaos Dreadnought is capable of assaulting 18", and that Carnifex will need to be closer than 18" if the Tyranid player wishes to effectively shoot the infantry that the Dreadnought is supporting.

Even with a 12" charge range the Dreadnought offers plenty of localized control of the battlefield, and if you keep your units well under this umbrella, then you have a handy counter-assault and support assault machine.

If you want to advance across the board, then you can rely on target saturation, hiding, and covering fire from your own Heavy Support, Fast Attack, or Deep Strike units.

And if it gets destroyed by anti-tank fire on the way in? That's alright, Chaos Dreadnoughts with Dreadnought Close Combat Weapons are cheap.

I found my Def Dread and Kans to be very effective when you have to guard a target, say in the Sabotage mission.

I think they are better defense units than offense.

Ok, with all this said, is just one a good idea?

That depends on what else you have in your army.

Damn, I must be high today, forgot the glance limit of my own weapons..

However, it seems that the argument comes down to this. The best a Chaos Dread can do is act as localized close combat discouragement to MC's, if it lives to do so. So basically, you have to keep it close to your "soft parts" to keep MCs away.

As for hiding, then you are surrendering control of that particular model, which will increase the priority of armored models you do have in line of sight. More importantly, if he has you hiding from parts of his army to keep your dreadnought alive, then you won't be inclined to move whatever the dreadnought is guarding without its presence. In effect, you are being controlled by your opponent. This is always a bad thing, regardless of army composition or tactics or strategy.

I think I'm not getting across about the flying Tyrant. he uses his high mobility to attack targets of opportunity, usually with 12x Twin Linked BS4 S5 living ammo shots, or using his MC close combat attacks. A Tyranid player will be able to determine by deployment where the dreadnought will be and use his considerable movement to simply attack another part of your army altogether. You usually won't bait a Flyrant, because he has the speed to avoid such a catch 22 situation, unless you take multiple dreads and or Princes and spread them out amongst a castled force so that the dreadnoughts have to be engaged. Against a Zilla force, you may actually be able to advance on them with multiple Dreads and Princes, forcing them to stall the advance until they deal with them. This may actually work, but you gonna have to go Zilla yourself.

As for using cover to advance behind to safely get to the enemy or an objective, he is still plenty slow enough for your opponent to plan for him when he emerges, IF there is enough terrain for him to actually advance any distance with( 25% and all that). Don't even count on that when 5th ed rolls around, and he'll be in line of sight again.

But what about, say, Shooty Marines, Tau, or Guard? Then you are giving up a slot for a unit that could shoot back for dead weight. The rest of your army will basically have to function without him, as he will never advance fast enough to keep up with winged princes, nor stay back with Havocs or Obliterators and shoot.

I stand by my assessment that a close combat dread is a poor unit choice, as it adds no proactive element to your army. To use the CC dreadnought as a guard surrenders control of one or more of your units. He is a slow model with no ranged capabilities, who can easily be neutralized by enemy fire or combats with cheap mobs( like a slugga boys with a PK Nob, good luck with that). A shooty army can ignore him, and any successful assault army will have the mobility to deal with it on their own terms.

Nurglitch, you continue to miss the point. What can 4 (5 on the charge) S10 PW attacks do that 3 (4 on the charge) S10 PW attacks can't? Not a whole lot. The difference is there, obviously, but it certainly isn't greater than the effect of the turns of HW shooting you could have had for the same price.

All the arguments you've given are basically arguments for taking a Dreadnought. That's fine (though even you must admit that Dreads are hardly the best choice in the 'dex). They aren't good reasons for gimping your Dread by giving it dual CCWs.

Railguns: Saying that the argument comes down to the Dreadnought providing localized close combat discouragement to enemy Monstrous Creatures leaves out important details. It is a caricature of the tactics I have explained.

A Chaos Dreadnought with two Dreadnought Close Combat Weapons can be used to capture objectives, to escort infantry, and as a fire magnet.

If a Dreadnought is advancing up the board to help capture an objective, and it hides in cover (or simply behind its own smoke), it may be inclined to move away from a unit its supporting and it may not. Protecting your Dreadnought from enemy guns is hardly ceding control of that Dreadnought to your opponent. Allowing your opponent to pop it would be ceding control. Using cover to work the Dreadnought close enough to the enemy to charge is simply common sense.

Obviously, if you're simply using the Dreadnought as something big and scary to draw fire, then you wouldn't hide it, you'd move it up in the open and in front of whatever you want it to draw fire from.

With regard to the case of the Flying Hive Tyrant, I agree that scattering Dreadnought(s) throughout the core of a castled force would be a good way to go. In particular placing the Dreadnought or Dreadnoughts so they can support Havocs or Obliterators would prevent a Flying Hive Tyrant from being able to pick off isolated units, or from picking off the Dreadnoughts as they advance towards vulnerable units like Elite Carnifex units.

With regard to an army that would hang back in their deployment zone and simply shoot, well, that's why your army includes units that aren't Dreadnoughts. A Dreadnought armed with one or two ranged weapons could try to shoot a Tau or Imperial Guard or Space Marine force, but those armies can shoot better and trying to take them on their own terms can be a lost cause (especially since Predators do it better than Dreadnoughts). I would either advance the Dreadnought through cover, or use it to wall off line of sight to my Havocs (or just hide and deny those points). It would only advance openly when my fast-moving units and Deep Strike units (including Obliterators) had managed to engage the campers in the deployment zone.

In that case, the Dreadnought would act as reinforcements, arriving just in time to either mop up the remnants of the opposing army or to pull my ass out of the fire. A shooting army that ignores such a Dreadnought puts itself at risk of getting demolished by it when it closes, and a shooting army that does not ignore it will waste firepower killing it. A mobile army that avoids it can be controlled by its position, and a mobile army that engages it will put it right where it works best.

A Dreadnought with two Dreadnought Close Combat Weapons is, like any other unit, a good choice if it is properly supported (and supports) the rest of the army in a coherent strategy. It either provides psychological pressure on your opponent if they react to it, or it provides actual pressure on their army if they don't. Neither sort of pressure is great, but then it's not like a Dreadnought with two Dreadnought Close Combat is anything more than a poor man's Terminator squad.

tegeus-Cromis: What can 4(5) S10 Power Weapon attacks does that 3(4) S10 Power Weapons attacks can't do? Kill a Hive Tyrant or Carnifex or Daemon Prince that charges, for instance. Or Instant Kill a Nob or Warboss. The extra attack also makes it considerably more likely to hit and wound said opponents. One wound can make the difference between killing an opponent or winning a combat. That's plenty of difference.

Aside from that I also noted that lacking a Heavy Weapon means that you don't have to expose the lightly armoured Dreadnought to return fire, that taking an extra Dreadnought Close Combat Weapon was relatively inexpensive, and that they posed less of a risk due to their Crazed rule.

Furthermore I reject the idea that there are absolute "best choices" in the Chaos Marine codex. The value of each choice is relative to the army that it participates in and the tactics applied.

So no, they're not the most effective unit available to a Chaos Marine army, but so what? They're quite effective for the points that they cost, and unlike different configurations of Chaos Dreadnoughts their battlefield roles are not better filled by units like Defilers and Predators.

What can 4(5) S10 Power Weapon attacks does that 3(4) S10 Power Weapons attacks can't do? Kill a Hive Tyrant or Carnifex or Daemon Prince that charges, for instance. Or Instant Kill a Nob or Warboss.

These are not "things X can do that Y cannot." They are things that X is somewhat better at doing than Y.

Given that stuff like this happens only when your opponent chooses to let it happen (it's the other guys who's flying around at 12" a turn and choosing where to charge, not you), I do not see how this 1 attack if (if, not when!) you get into CC can be better than a missile launcher you can use as you please.

The extra attack also makes it considerably more likely to hit and wound said opponents. One wound can make the difference between killing an opponent or winning a combat. That's plenty of difference.

Yes, one wound can make that difference. Multiple HW shots can make even more of a difference.

Furthermore I reject the idea that there are absolute "best choices" in the Chaos Marine codex. The value of each choice is relative to the army that it participates in and the tactics applied.

Sure there aren't definitive "best choices," but there are better and worse ones. If, for a given unit which you intend to use for a certain role, you could, for the points, get a unit that performs that role more effectively, the second unit is better, surely.

So no, they're not the most effective unit available to a Chaos Marine army, but so what? They're quite effective for the points that they cost, and unlike different configurations of Chaos Dreadnoughts their battlefield roles are not better filled by units like Defilers and Predators.

I like how you compare them to two choices that are themselves sub-par, as if there weren't other, better units that can fulfill the role of a dual-CCW Dread. Way to go.

By the way, what stops a Defiler from fulfilling the role of a dual-CCW Dread?

tegeus-Cromis: When model x has three attacks and model y has four attacks model y is both better at assault than model x (ceteris paribus) and able to do things that model x cannot: i.e.: whatever requires at least four attacks.

As mentioned the extra wound can make a great difference whether caused in an assault or by shooting, but exposing the Dreadnought to enemy fire makes the difference caused by shooting decidedly more risky (not to mention more costly). That is, of course, assuming causing that wound is performing the same battlefield role.

If, as you say, one unit performs a role more effectively than another unit for the same points, that does not make it a better unit. That merely makes it a better unit for that role. Only where one unit outperforms another in all possible roles can we say that the first is the better unit. To do otherwise would be to over-generalize.

Now I'm not sure why you suggest that Defilers and Predators are sub-par, but given your lack of interest in reasoning carefully about tactics I suppose dismissive behaviour is to be expected of you. So let me explain what stops a Defiler from fulfilling the role of a Chaos Dreadnought with two Dreadnought Close Combat Weapons in two simple words that requires no effort for you to understand:

HEAVY SUPPORT

You're welcome.

The best way to run Dreadnoughts at all is in support with other vehicles: multiple predators, rhinos, that sort of thing. If you run Dreads and say, Oblits, the enemy is still shooting the oblits with his S8+ AP2 weapons, because it's a big kill. You want to drown out whatever S7+ weapons the enemy has with a range of threats.

In terms of a CC armed dread, I simply think the opportunity cost is too high. Chaos doesn't suffer from a paucity of excellent but slow HtH units, and unfortunatly that's all the Dread is (although I'm not sure it's excellent, but that's another debate). What Chaos often lacks is mobile firepower, particularly the autocannon shots that the Dread can get. Giving up the ability to engage Skimmers and light vehicles for a chance at HtH glory is too high of an opporunity cost for me.

The real problem with close combat dreads is that shooty armies will shoot it long before it reaches combat, while assault armies will simply have a fist, chainfist, or MC to rip it up in combat. Yes, hiding it behind other vehicles will help, but that increases it's main advantage: cheapness. Finally, I would never use Dreads as objective holders in a chaos army when I had access to plague marines, Lesser demons, etc. which are all cheap and highly durable.

Nurglitch:

When model x has three attacks and model y has four attacks model y is both better at assault than model x (ceteris paribus) and able to do things that model x cannot: i.e.: whatever requires at least four attacks.

The things you listed are not things that require at least four attacks to do, unless you assume that whatever is hitting your lines cannot be shot at before hand.

As mentioned the extra wound can make a great difference whether caused in an assault or by shooting, but exposing the Dreadnought to enemy fire makes the difference caused by shooting decidedly more risky (not to mention more costly).

So your proposal is to hide the Dread in the hopes that something will charge it or come close enough to be charged? Wow, what a plan. 100+ points that may well do nothing at all--or may spend a few turns doing nothing, then lurch out of its hidey hole against your will, get shot and die.

It is not even like Dreads are very easy to hide. 6 RRs in an IG list can hide 18" away and still do the job when needed. The Dread needs to be close to within 12" of whatever it is it's protecting.

If, as you say, one unit performs a role more effectively than another unit for the same points, that does not make it a better unit. That merely makes it a better unit for that role.

"which you intend to use for a certain role"

Now I'm not sure why you suggest that Defilers and Predators are sub-par, but given your lack of interest in reasoning carefully about tactics I suppose dismissive behaviour is to be expected of you. So let me explain what stops a Defiler from fulfilling the role of a Chaos Dreadnought with two Dreadnought Close Combat Weapons in two simple words that requires no effort for you to understand:

HEAVY SUPPORT

You're welcome.

Heavy support bollocks. What's an HS slot to you? You would just have filled it with some rubbish like a Pred or mixed HW Havocs anyway.

That aside, it's pretty funny that according to you, a Defiler can fulfill the role of a non-dual-CCW Dread, but cannot fulfill the role of a dual-CCW Dread. Does it magically stop being a HS choice when you want to use it an an example?

Stelek wrote:They're the only models of my own I've thrown like a baseball and destroyed. Totally worthless units.

Stelek wrote:Why would the other guy throw me through a plate glass window?

The way your original post was worded implied that, while the Dreads may have been the only models that YOU own to have been tossed across the room, there are others that have met similar fates which belonged to other players.

Say it ain't so.

I think, it's actually possible that Nurglich raises a valid point, just not the one he was trying to make. It's actually possible that there is a set of circumstances out there that any given unit, in fact, any given load out of that unit would have a moment where it is the optimal choice.

I think that Nurglitch's oft belabored point is that you can't dismiss any unit unilaterally, because hey, you can build an army where it's awesome.

I would make the argument that while there might be times when any given unit is best, there has to be at least some acknowledgment given to a certain amount of reality. I mean, grenade launchers are the best special weapon available for IG if you want to move the squad and shoot over 12" away; but how often does that come up?

I certainly don't want to insult Nurglitch, but he's made it pretty clear in the past that he has a much broader view of ranking units then most of us here, namely that few, if any units, are notably better or worse then others. Because of this, any debate about if a unit is good or bad will be a waste of time with him, simply because the arguers start with differet axioms.

The point cannot be denied, but I ignore it for the same reason you do: stuff that's possible but unlikely is hardly worth thinking about.

I build every list with the assumption that I will be facing players who are as good as or better than I am when it comes to generalship as well as list-building. That's my golden rule, and it leaves no space for a unit like a dual-CCW Dread, which 1) will only ever get into combat when my opponent lets it happen 2) can't handle most stuff that would want to get into combat with it. It's a unit with one chance to shine per game, a chance that requires both careful planning on my part and ineptness on my opponent's part. Taking it is either a fluff-based decision (and that's absolutely fine!), a conscious self-handicap, or a bad decision.

It's pretty tough for me not to insult Nurglitch when he thinks carnifexes are going to be charging, well, anything. Maybe my absurdometer is too sensitive.

I figured it out, this thread is what broke my absurdometer.

I skip a lot and say the following:

Played a game last Friday, 4000 points Nids vs 2x 2000 point Chaos. There were 2 shooty carnifex, 3 assault carnifex, 4 chaos dreads and 1 defiler. All carnifex except 1 shooty died, 1 dread bit it to a carnifex and 1 was immobilized by a carnifex shot early on. Out of all those dreads blood rage was rolled 3-4 times and fire frenzy only once, when a lascannon dread stunned another dread for fun.

An exceptional game of 40k, to be sure.

- Salvage