Plaga marines with plasma or melta and champ?

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**kaintxu**

Ok finally i have decided to take out my chosen from my list, since when i play my eldar the infiltrating is not all that great, so i have decided to throw in some plague marines instead of these.

The question is should i equip them with 2 melta o 2 plasmas? or 1 of each? or some other choice? the unit is a 7 man unit

On the other hand, should I put a champ on the unit? and equip it with CF??

**catarrhus**

I run plague marines and I think plasma is more effective against troops and light armor since you get two shots at 12". However if your opponent likes to field landraiders and russes then you will need the melta.
The champ is nice but I only field them in the big games with FNP and Blight grenades your plague marines will hold their own quite well.

**studderingdave**

my standard build for PM squads as of the latest codex:

7 PM's 1 melta 1 plasma i champ with fist and plasma pistol. naked rhino.

the 7 PM's is from the last codex, when sacred nubers meant something, but i refuse to change. i like an all around squad. tank hunting with the melta gun is nice, and low ap busting with everything is great. fist in CC always helps.

PM's are very hard to bust. if i can get 1 move with the rhino it payed for its points.

**Mannahnin**

Best combo will probably depend on what you fight regularly, and what else is in your army.

Plasmas are great against infantry, monstrous creatures, and light vehicles. They also work extra well with Plague Marines, because you get Feel No Pain against any overheat wounds you suffer. Also, Plague Marines don't mind very much when enemy units charge them, thanks to Blight Grenadess. Which mitigates the other weakness of Plasmaguns, that you can't charge if you fire them.

Meltas are obviously great against high armor values, and they allow you to shoot + charge in the same turn.

A champ with powerfist is almost compulsory on any unit you expect to get into close combat. Which Plague Marines will, as they have to get close to do significant damage and justify their point cost.

**Tacobake**

Considering their resiliency, I think if you are going to take them the power fist is definately worth it.

As for plasma vs melta, both are good. You never regret taking melta guns, and it's a good place for plasma.

Personally I would probably take plasma because of the FNP, it's a good place for it.

**kaintxu**

The current army roughly has in trops

- Prince/flight/slanesh/Lash
- 5 termis/heavy flame/chain fist/2x melta combi/2x lighting claws
- 10 berserkers/champ/power weapin
- 8 Tsons/sorcerosr
- 7 CSM/champ/PF
- 7 CSM/champ/PF/melta
- 7 raptors/champ/claws/melta/slanesh
- 2 Obliterators
- Land raider

All units have some kind of reliqu except termies and oblits

the thing is i have 184 spare points to add these guys which is not much, I could toss in another 10 points from some lighting claws from the termis and if really needed reduce the berserkers squad to 9 to get another 21 points or the raptors to 6 for 20 points or kick out a chapion on a base CSM unit for another 40.

The unit should be
- 7 plague marines/champ/fist/2x plasma or 2x melta which in points comes out to be 231 or 221

If i take off the lighting claws I can go for 7 guys with 2 plasma (or 2 melta)

If I take off 1 serker or raptor i Can go for 7 guys/champ/fist plus a melta if i take the claws off

With both a serkers and a raptor i could go for the full unit with 2 melta, or 2 plasma if i take those claws.

If I take off the champion and PF from the CSM unit i could go for the full squad with 2 melta or 2 plasma if i take the claws

So what option would you guys take?

**Bastirous666**

it looks like you have a fair amount of anti tank so using the plasma should be a good fit there for you

**kaintxu**

1melta on raptors, another one on CSM, the land raider, 2 oblits is enough anti tank?

**Bastirous666**

how many games do you play where you face more than 1 AV 14 all around tank? probably not often at all. therefore for heavy vehicles yes he does have enough anti tank to make mince meat of those 1-2 biggies out there. he's not guard so he can actually hit things

**kaintxu**

SO definitely you would go with 2 plasmas?

If the unit is to be used as an objective holder how about no champ no PF, just 7 guys, even 8 with 2 plasmas?

**Bastirous666**

i like the 7 with the champ and PF, plus the 2 plasma, it makes them an all around good unit in CC and shooting.

**Wehrkind**

I would go with the power fist and 2 plasma.

I always try and tie up plague marines melee since they are not especially good in it (as opposed to duking it out in a fire fight) and the number of power weapon/fist attacks I can direct against them in that way is generally higher than the number of St8+ weapons I can toss their way to mitigate FNP. As such, a power fist to do some damage back in melee is a good bonus. Particularly if you are going to part on an objective and hold, the enemy will be throwing units at you.

**kaintxu**

ok its decided, im going with the 7, champ, PF, and 2 plasma

Another lil question do you guys recon its better adding 2 tsons unit rather than 1 t-son and 1 plaga?

i made the list and someone told me its not good to take diferent good units because unfocuses mision of each unit, but i see plague marines very similar to T-son, a tough unit maybe shoots less, but has beter CC, so having:

- 1berserker
- 1Tsons
-1 Raptor with slanesh mark

what would you go with, T-sons or plague marines

**Kallbrand**

5 marines with 2 plasma for 145 works wonders for the points spent. Not the winner unit but definently worth the few poins and will score untill the last man dies.

**Democratus**

Melta is often better than Plasma for more reasons than just anti-vehicle duty. A melta hit will insta-kill just about any IC in the game, will deny a FNP/WBB save, and will wound nearly anything short of a C'Tan or Avatar on a 2. It doesn't limit your movement and makes every squad a "no fly zone" for enemy vehicles.

I run my units identical to Studdering Dave (Melta, Plasgun, Plas Pistol, PFist) - except occasionally it will be 8 PMs instead of 7. This unit has a great deal of firepower - only 1 less AP2/1 shot than the double plasma - and presents a credable threat to any unit in the game.

**JohnHwangDD**

FWIW, I'm going to have 2 squads of 6 (or 7) Plague Marines with 2 Plasma Guns and a PF. The extra FNP save against Overheat is a really cool combo.

My Meltas will be carried in pairs by Raptors, as they have better chances to get against a side or within 6" for the extra die against vehicles.

**Kallbrand**

IF in 5th ed, you are getting to pay 63 points for a champ with 2 pfist attacks. Even with countercharge that sounds a bit over priced to me but might be worth it if you run a bigger squad. The number 7 doesnt really mean anything anymore, so if you want a big squad go for the full 10 w PF-champ + 2 plasmas and rhino´.

I agree that the meltas should be carried by raptors or on your rhino if you get one of those.

**Darkness**

I have always had tremendous success with power fist, 1 melta and 1 plasma. In 5th all that I plan on changing is the addition of a combi-flamer to the champ.

**tegeus-Cromis**

Kallbrand, losing the one attack will hurt, but since the option was underpriced to begin with, I would call it "fairly priced" rather than "overpriced" now. SoBs have been scraping by with an even more overpriced option.

**Kallbrand**

Raising the cost.. fine, it was a bit underpriced before. But why reduce attacks at the same time, to balance something you either makes it worse or upps the cost, doing both is a double blow to the thing(counter charge might help it out a little tho). Now you will usually have 1 hit/turn with it, a basic marine unit with MoK will have 50% more effectiveness for alot less.

Also, notice that in a bigger unit the pf-champ becomes worth more and the price is less of a % investment. There is where it might be worth it, but not on small squads where you pay 1/3 of the squads cost for only the one model.

**kaintxu**

Why do you guys think PF are undercost? they are allready 25 points, i guess thats fairly enough.

The 1 less attack yes its actually a bit of a damm but it comes up to everyone so its still everything even (well armys without PF such as eldar, IG, and so get then hand on that

Yey my avatar and WL will live more

)

**tegeus-Cromis**

Why do you guys think PF are undercost? they are allready 25 points, i guess thats fairly enough.

Um, because they give you a hell of a lot more than 25 points of utility? Really, I don't need to mathammer or theoryhammer this out to prove it. A whole version's worth of player experience has shown that PFs are uber. They aren't an insta-win button by any stretch of the imagination, of course, but they are clearly superior to any other squad-borne CC weapon option. In 5th ed, with the loss of one attack and the reduction in "hiddenness" due to casualty rules, the playing field will be leveled somewhat.

**Kallbrand**

I actually meant that they were underpriced at 15 points, 25 is more reasonable. Also, the cost of a plague-champ with pfist is 63 and you hardly ever make up for that utility with only 2 attacks. However, in a bigger squad they are your only real protection against MCs and dreadnaughts.

**tegeus-Cromis**

Meh, an SoB VSS with Evis + BoSL runs to 55 points with the same 2 attacks (and lower S [before Faith] and WS), but I usually find she pays her way. I don't see why the 63 pt. Plague champ can't.

**PistolWraithCaine**

Whatever you do don't mix them, they are meant to fire at different things and as such, should not be in the same unit.

**kaintxu**

PistolWraithCaine wrote:Whatever you do don't mix them, they are meant to fire at different things and as such, should not be in the same unit.

What are not supposed to be mixed?

**PistolWraithCaine**

Melta and plasma, melta is for vehicles and plasma is for meqs, high toughness chars, termies that sort of thing. All of your squads need to have a purpose if they are for tank hunting take 2 melta if they are for anything else, take plasma. Lists suffer when people try to do more than one thing with a squad and don't have a clear purpose for what they are supposed to do.

**Kallbrand**

Against what do you make those points back(esp with the VSS)?

They hardly ever make their point worth back, unless your opponent gives it to you, but they have a big scare effect on some of the things around.. guess that is worth something.

Also, PistolW has a point.. usually dont mix CC and shooting on your squads, since they will only preform 50% of what you pay for in every round. (except for the scare effect)

**kaintxu**

kallbrand can you explain you message i dont understand a thing actualy. esp? VSS?

on the other hand are you sating not to mix melta and plasma, o plasmas and PF?

**Democratus**

1 Melta and 1 Plasma is a good mix. Melta are ecellent at anti MEQ, anti-Character, and anti-anything. Plasma are good at anti TEQ. You can even give the Champ a Plasma Pistol and Combi plas/melta if you want to "double down" on any particular turn. But you should always keep a Melta ready in case something really bad shows up.