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The folks on Warseer who have read through the rulebook have confirmed that in 5th edition you cannot consolidate into a fresh unit after wiping one on or driving it off in HTH combat. Does this make gunline guard viable? I'd like to hear your thoughts.

Are you implying that gunline guard isn't a viable army?

The rule is likely to be that you cannot consolidate into an existing combat. As per the leaked document.

Not allowing a consolidate into an unengaged unit is overly harsh and would open up a world of abuse. And yes it would be an enormous boon to shoot-only armies.

Not allowing a consolidate into an existing combat is just prohibiting an action to avoid a gray area caused by sloppy rules writing. This sounds like the GW I know.

Granted, I've not read the actual rulebook, only the PDF. I'm still not convinced the poster conveyed the correct information. It just does not make sense to me why they'd disallow consolidating into an unegaged unit. Time will tell. If this is the case, combined with the new assualt rules, I'd be hard pressed to build any army but the shootiest I could imagine.

That rumour actually comes from quite a few separate sources, but might still not be 100% accurate.

If it is, IG and Tau should sing happysongs and Chaos Demons should just curl up and die.

Moz wrote:The rule is likely to be that you cannot consolidate into an existing combat. As per the leaked document.

I have read the rulebook and this is the correct rule.

What you fail to understand is that one unit can lock up as many units as it has modules. 10 man assault squad hits your lines and drags five of your units into combat. Ya they can consolidate into a fresh unit but they can consolidate into ongoing battles.

HTH godly units drags two 60 man ork units into hth and eats threw them in the next few turns.....

You kidding, Tarval? Hardly any units can divide themselves between two full Ork mobs and live, let alone win. What unit did you have in mind?

To be honest, I don't think it's as unlikely as I'd like. I've had a couple of instances lately where a high I unit has killed every Ork in bast-to-base, preventing me from striking back. An elite unit that's well positioned can hold off the horde surprisingly well.

5th ed, Vandez.

Ah, crap. Sorry, I'm obviously not paying attention.

I don't really have a strong grasp of the apparent mechanics of 5th - what is it that makes the situation so much better for the Orks?

Well, last I heard, you can take casualties from anywhere in the locked unit, not just engaged models. In Tarval's scenario, even if this intrepid elite unit can hack down a whopping 30 Orks on the charge, the remaining 15 Orks from each unit will still squish them, or at least a lot of them.

Oh. Oh. That is extremely good news. I'm sick of my PK Nobz not getting to strike!

And every unit gets to countercharge 6" with all its models.. so that will spell DOOM for most pepole trying this.

tegeus-Cromis

You kidding, Tarval? Hardly any units can divide themselves between two full Ork mobs and live, let alone win. What unit did you have in mind?

I guess there is not point in sending in basic guard to tie up a high I character either in 4th ed. Though if you think about it, would it not be worth locking 60 orks up in hth. Then again I guess your ready to flame because you fail to see the logic in the assault move! Trickle assist if your at all familar with the game called 40k. Its not a matter of killing its a matter of wining combat and if you would even stop and think about this before you post then maybe you would understand tactics and logic of which you dont from what your saying up top!!!

In 5th, you will not lock those Orks. You will assault them, kill a few, then die--in the same turn.

Winning combat is great, but guess what? Dead units can't win combats.

Lastly, you have a strange idea of what "flaming" entails. Where in my post did I flame you? (It's pretty clear where in your post you've flamed me.)

The Tactica Imperium!

A good general does not lead an army to destruction just because he knows it will follow.

Always endeavour to fight the enemy on your terms. If you are powerful at close quarters then engage in dense terrian where your advantage will prove greatest. If you are superior at long range then fight the battle at a distance. If you have greater numbers then attack along an extended front. Us reserves to break though when the enemy's overstretched lines collapes. If outnumbered then concentrate your forces so that they enemy can fight only your best troops. No one ever won a battle who failed to take advantage of his enemy's weakness.

You need to read and re read this one a few times as well...

If the enemy comes on in a great horde, as orks are wont to do, then try to direct them into a narrow defile or enclosed space, such that their numbers work against them. Crowded together those at the front will impede those behind, whilst the push from the rear will prevent those at the front from retreating or finding a better path.

Did you see the movie 300?, if not please see it again as they showed what this tactic talks about.

So your 'godly assault unit' moves in to tie up two units of 30 Boyz, whilst simultaneously occupying an advantageous terrain bottleneck?

I think I see a slight flaw in your logic here.

Goat path?



I think we have all used the tactic of assault a unit just to stop forward progress guys. I have used that tactic to many times and or to force units to go around. So what if the unit dies, if it forced another turn plus to shoot then that is advantage im willing to use.

First this topic is about IG so we are not talking about major hth guys here gang. Next the topic is about consolidating into fresh units. So ya you can't consolidate into fresh units but you can consolidate into an already on going battle ie if you assault more than one units with your unit.

Maybe we'll see more SM players clue-ing into the close combat power that is a Dreadnought. On their own they're power fist/klaw bait, supported by a Combat Squad or two and they can wipe the floor with hordes.

I was just playing around with you bud, its like im going to flame the world just letting you know that you can tie up a unit even if in the end your dead. Its a matter of keeping that unit tied up until its your turn again when you can then bring the pain.

Tarval, the key, as you say, is tying it up until it's your turn again. My point is that if you assault 60 Orks, your unit may not even live that long. Even assuming you kill an absurd 30 Orks, you're looking at 56 (for shootas) or 84 (for sluggas) S3 attacks and 6 PK attacks back. That'll leave a mark. Many "HTH godly units" (your phrase, not mine, so don't give me that "but we're talking about IG" bs) won't survive that first round of CC.

Have you actually tried this under (rumoured) 5th ed rules, or are you basing your statements on your 4th ed experiences (which would be a big mistake)?

Tarval wrote:I was just playing around with you bud, its like im going to flame the world just letting you know that you can tie up a unit even if in the end your dead. Its a matter of keeping that unit tied up until its your turn again when you can then bring the pain.

I'm still not seeing how your tactic will work in 5th. On your turn, you charge two large Ork mobs with 10 guardsman. Orks will win combat, likely killing all your men, or you will be testing leadership with a massive negative modifier. When they do, they get to consolidate D6" toward the rest of your army. Now its the Ork player's turn, he gets to move another 6" and possibly fleet and then possibly charge the rest of your army.

If that description is not correct, please clarify the scenario.

I think the idea is that the Orks charge a line of Guardsmen in their own Assault Phase, wipe them out, and then face a volley from the rest of the Imperial Guard units.

We are talking about Tarval's idea here, right? Because I'd very much like to know how you derived that summary from this post:

What you fail to understand is that one unit can lock up as many units as it has modules. 10 man assault squad hits your lines and drags five of your units into combat. Ya they can consolidate into a fresh unit but they can consolidate into ongoing battles.

HTH godly units drags two 60 man ork units into hth and eats threw them in the next few turns.....

In both cases, the assaulting unit aims to tie up the assaulted unit, not the other way around. In both cases, the assaulting unit is (supposedly) better at CC than the assaulted unit.

I was talking about what kadun was discussing. If we're talking about a superior close combat unit trapping a horde of Orks in an assault until more units can assault, it could work. You'd need units like Assault Terminators or Assault Marines though, or Scorpions or Dire Avengers, or something with good saves, and you'd need to kill-zone snipe on the first turn. Kill-zone sniping won't be as effective in 5th, as I understand it, but return attacks will still be limited to models in the engaged zone. So make sure that the number of Orks that are engaged is very small, as small as possible. The unit won't run, since it's presumably Fearless, but it won't be able to get through the attacker's T/Sv since the attackers will be be positioned away from the ubiquitous power klaws, or at least enough to beat the number of casualties that small elite unit will be able to cause.

You mean kadun's post that started with

I'm still not seeing how your [Tarval's] tactic will work in 5th.

went on to extrapolate what "your [Tarval's] tactic" consisted of from what Tarval had said, and concluded with

If that description is not correct, please clarify the scenario.

?

You then responded with what you "think the idea is." "The idea?" What idea if not Tarval's?

Anyway, as I understand it, killzone sniping will be non-existent. When you assault a unit, every model in the unit moves up to 6" to get engaged, and casualties can be pulled even from models left unengaged after this move. Even for the units you list, the situation will be dicey at best and disastrous usually.

Hit the nail on the head with those last few lines Nurg...



AKA trickle assault,,,

On your movement you set yourself up so that you can only engage so many module. That way after combat is over and you have won, you have tied that unit up for a turn. Its not a matter of wining and removing 30 orcks, its a matter of holding the line. Once the line is held you can then focus on other things.

I dont want to wage a war with you because you already understand the what im trying to explain. Ya it might change up a bit but with a little skill you can still lock a unit up for a turn or two before they finish what they had to fight and move on. I would be more than happy to toss five me onto a 30 man mob unit to tie them up. That gives me time to focus on the other 30 man unit because the other other 30 man unit found itself looking at mass bolter, heavy bolter, bolt-pistol fire.

Impressive selective reading you've got there, Tarval. Let me reiterate:

1) The unit you assault gets a 6" counter-assault move. That means every Ork within 8" of a friendly model in btb at the time you charge will get to strike (unless blocked by others). Try it out with actual models. You'll find that most, and often all, the boys will get to strike.

2) Casualties don't need to come from engaged models, so you can't killzone snipe at all. What does this mean? Never mind winning the combat; the assaulting unit may not even survive the turn on which it charges.

Edit:

I dont want to wage a war with you because you already understand the what im trying to explain. Ya it might change up a bit but with a little skill you can still lock a unit up for a turn or two before they finish what they had to fight and move on. I would be more than happy to toss five me onto a 30 man mob unit to tie them up.

Your statement just shows that you haven't grasped the extent to which things "might change up a bit." You still think five elite guys can tie up a 30-boy mob in 5th. They can't. They will charge and they will die--in the same turn. Benefit to you: nil.