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You can only kill what you can reach.

Tarval wrote:You can only kill what you can reach.

The last rumor I've read is that in close combat any model in the unit can be pulled as a casualty (just like shooting), but only "engaged" models (those in base to base contact and those within 2" of based models) get to actually attack.

We are not talking about killing, we are talking about holding the line of which a five man unit if it played out correctly could. Its just a matter of placement and such. I'm not saying that I would do such a thing unless i needed to sac five men in order to hault an assault. Hell I have enough bolt weapons to remove two 30 man units with ease so bring the horde!

Tarval wrote:You can only kill what you can reach.

And you can "reach" every model in a squad you're in CC with.

I say again: split a 5-man assault squad between two 30-strong Ork mobs and your Marines will die the same turn they charge. Doesn't matter how you position them.

Especially since everyone is practically getting Counterassault. Fancy positioning for assault will be a thing of the past, to some extent.

tegeus-Cromis read Cheexsta comment please below

"Fancy positioning for assault will be a thing of the past, to some extent."

You keep saying that this will never happen, yet others say that it could still happen. People keep saying that things can still happen and you keep saying they will never happen. Placement is key and it might be 100000 zilllion to 1 but there is still a chance for pulling it off. Lowering the return allows you to stay in combat ie holding the line of which you utterly fail to see!

I had some time to chim back in and now its back to work. I hope you understand that things can still happen, and if not I will just blow the 90 orks off the board! Enjoyed the time but please get back to the topic at hand instead of causing this topic to derail over and over!

Um, Cheexsta is agreeing with me. Reading comprehension for the lose?

"Others" (which really means just you) can say it till they're blue in the face and it won't make a jot of difference. I'd put money on the fact that if you came back here in a couple of months--that is, after everyone's had some games of 5th--and claimed that 5 assault Marines had more than a snowball's chance in hell of surviving the charge against 60 Orks, you'll be laughed off Dakka. Do the math, or do it on the tabletop; it makes no difference. Your idea is a pipe dream.

Derail, train goes flying.....

Could you help me out Tegeus because ma read'n comp is unable undersand last pree word.


",to soooooommmmeeee exttttennnt."

Could you explain this to me because you stated that im unable to comprehend.

Just because your exp as a general is lacking does not mean things can not happen. Have you ever seen the movie the Messenger, you know that movie with Jonah Arc? Lets just cut to the last part of the movie when Satan shows up and she is in jail. Now the question is how did the sword get there correct? Well there are a infinite amount of possibilites, of which you have only pick it could never happen, go figure.....

If somebody sets up in such a way that I am able to pull this off, then I have done what you failed to for see. Maybe you should go back and read over the Tactica Imperium I post for a better understand of ork horde.

tegeus-Cromis wrote:

Tarval wrote:You can only kill what you can reach.

And you can "reach" every model in a squad you're in CC with.

I say again: split a 5-man assault squad between two 30-strong Ork mobs and your Marines will die the same turn they charge. Doesn't matter how you position them.

Wow. Is someone actually arguing this? You don't survive this kind of combat in FOURTH edition? It gets alot worse in 5th edition.

Current:

You lose combat (this is a given).
You are outnumbered max -4.
You might be below half -1.

If you have a master on the board, that's a 6 or a 5 to stay.

If you don't, that's a 2 or a 3 to stay.

If you think Orks are likely to catch you and force you to stay...3 init vs 4 init. So odds are you'll escape...IF you've left someone in base contact. If you haven't, you get away automatically. If you do get caught and stay, enjoy the 3 fearless wounds.

That's fourth edition--and the tactic doesn't work very well since Orks will gladly be in combat and get a 6" assault move and a 6" follow up move (which, in case you were wondering, is going to be straight at you since 30 boyz cannot all get within 2" and since they have a 6" move might as well run right at you--good job, you just got the Orks 12" closer to your lines...GENIUS!).

Not to mention with the rules as they are, if you lose even ONE marine, I can unlock one Ork unit from combat by piling in the one in base contact into you (I move first, I pile 30 Orks into your 3 guys, and the other Ork unit is not locked).

So, overall, this is 'bad'.

Now on to 5th.

I charge. You countercharge, so even more Orks can attack you.

You kill 4 Orks, 2 from each unit. These casaulties are removed from the guys who could not attack (but since we're both I4, why you think this matters is beyond me...) all the way at the back.

Then my 40 Orks and 2 Nobz with Klaws say hello to your 5 Marines. Then your 5 marines say hello to the Emperor.

Then I move forward with my consolidate and scratch one enemy 'troop' off my to-do list.

So, overall, this is also 'bad'.

Please, don't theoryhammer. Play some actual games and try this crap first before posting it as canon. Thanks!

Something can be possible as an event but dead as a tactic.

You still fail to realise that nothing you do as a general can change the odds of this trick working in 5th. Fancy positioning affects nothing, because any member of a squad can become a casualty, whether engaged or not.

In fact, let's put this to the test. You set up two squads of 30 Orks w/PK Nob in a realistic mob formation (i.e. a loose clump). Then set up one 5-man assault squad wherever you like, at whatever distance. Assault them into the Orks, roll the dice, see the results. Repeat until you manage to achieve what you've been talking about on this thread. Posts pics of the arrangements.

Or you could just come back in a few months, repeat the claims you've been making on this thread, and we'll see how that laugh test works out. Either's fine with me.

Tarval: Share. Whatever you are taking, share.

Both sides seem to be missing something...

Tarval is saying it COULD happen.
He's right that it could... only because he is leaning on the POSSIBILITY of horrible rolls, even though that is not what he's saying (he's claiming it to be because of good model placement).

To that extent that it COULD happen, Tarval is unfortunately right.
All of the Orks COULD miss their rolls to hit and/or wound, and/or thos wounds that go through could be completely or almost completely saved.
Weirder things HAVE happened.Ask my SoB that killed a squad of terminators.

Now, if we discuss it REASONABLY, it's apparently obvious that it WON'T happen.

Tarval doesn't seem to grasp or know what the 5th ed rules are going to be on this. What it comes down to is that a LARGE portion or Orks are going to get to assault with S4 and multiple attacks each (3?). The LIKELYHOOD of said marines surviving such an attack from TWO SQUADS of 30, 20, 15, or possibly even 10 strong Orks is so minimal that it is not WORTH discussing as a possibility, unless you're hanging onto a thread and hoping you can argue your way out of a corner you're already argued your way into.

Eric

Derail agian.

Well,,, we have gone from it could never happen to maybe so I guess that a step in the right direction.

I guess what I need to do is give it some more time and then maybe you guys will come full circle? I understand your lack of 40k gaming has caused you to have such a small mind when it comes to tactics so its ok...

Just fyi all, there are so many ways that this could happen and yet some of you simply just pick 60 vs 5. Open your minds, lets the thoughts of Buggus flow in and see the light.

Tactics, placement, dice, etc, step back and take a deep breath and post some more of your mindless commits.

Tactics: don't matter here. Yeah, an astounding idea, right? Sometimes generalship can't help a situation. Being Sun Tzu won't help you roll armour saves or help make your opponent whiff with dozens and dozens of attacks.

Placement: doesn't matter here, unless the Ork player strings his guys out in a map-spanning conga line. Do you see that happening?

Dice: matter, but they always matter.

I "simply pick 60 vs. 5" because 60 vs. 5 is the example you chose. You have only yourself to blame. (Your other example was something like 10 IG charging a nasty CC unit, so it's not like your other options are much more defensible.)

Funny that you raise the "more time" defence when you're the one relying on pure theoryhammer and we're the ones who have actually tried it. So, how about that laugh test in a few months? Care to try it? I mean, you obviously fail that test right now.

tegeus-Cromis

Tactics: don't matter here. Yeah, an astounding idea, right? Sometimes generalship can't help a situation. Being Sun Tzu won't help you roll armour saves or help make your opponent whiff with dozens and dozens of attacks.

Placement: doesn't matter here, unless the Ork player strings his guys out in a map-spanning conga line. Do you see that happening?

Dice: matter, but they always matter.

If your willing to think about some of the other way this could happen, then your allowing the thoughts of Buggus to flow in. I am so finally getting some credit and your understanding that dice are not always the key to winning combat.

I dont and have never played theoryhammer and have never ever even thought about using mathhammer to pick a list. I pick a list on what I want done and run it.

How many times have I tied up massive units with just five men for a turn or two or even four? A group of orks can only move so much before their numbers count against them. This is what you fail to see as your thinking 30 men are going to be able to move six inches and be in btb with my five. You fail to see that if I make contact correctly this can be pulled off, and with the correct leadership roll I can win combat.

I have flamed/bolt pistol and unit to remove certain modeles so that when I assault, the odds have been tipped in my favor heavily. HTH you can pull from any place in the combat but not shooting sir of which you fail to see.

I guess we can end it on this note,

I say yes and you say no. De end.....

Derail over.

Argh! Tarval it's so frustrating to watch you misunderstand what everyone's saying. You seem to be saying, if I understand you correctly, that there's a 1 in 1000000 chance of pulling this off so it's worth trying. That's plain wrong. Against 60 Orks that's throwing away a unit plain and simple.

Just because your exp as a general is lacking does not mean things can not happen. Have you ever seen the movie the Messenger, you know that movie with Jonah Arc? Lets just cut to the last part of the movie when Satan shows up and she is in jail. Now the question is how did the sword get there correct? Well there are a infinite amount of possibilites, of which you have only pick it could never happen, go figure.....

I think my brain exploded when I read that.

How many times have I tied up massive units with just five men for a turn or two or even four?

In 5th?

In 5th?

A group of orks can only move so much before their numbers count against them. This is what you fail to see as your thinking 30 men are going to be able to move six inches and be in btb with my five.

They only need to be engaged with your boys, not in btb with them.

I have flamed/bolt pistol and unit to remove certain modeles so that when I assault, the odds have been tipped in my favor heavily. HTH you can pull from any place in the combat but not shooting sir of which you fail to see.

So your bolt pistols and flamer are going to remove the Nob? That's the only model that's going to make a difference if you pop it. I'd like to hear how that works.

You fail to see that if I make contact correctly this can be pulled off, and with the correct leadership roll I can win combat.

So show me how it is you make contact that allows this miracle to happen.

Also share how a Ld roll can let you win combat. You realise that winning combat and managing to stay in the fight are not the same thing, right?

I guess we can end it on this note,

I say yes and you say no. De end.....

Derail over.

Nope, sorry. It continues until you acknowledge your stupid mistake, or provide some sort of evidence that it isn't one.

Nazdrugh

Against 60 Orks that's throwing away a unit plain and simple.

At 1850 I have 87 marines to use each at five men and I have many times use five men in order for the greater good. I am not talking about trying to win but to hold the line. If played out correctly it could happen with ease. Am I saying its going to happen tomorrow no, but am I saying that it can happen, yes.

If you guys are not willing to play with tactics then something like this will never happen for you. Have any of you ever thinned out the ranks so that when you assault you tie a unit up? I have been playing with five men ie combat sqauds from back in 2nd ed. I have used range and other tactics to tie units up in hth. I have even keep a Tooled chapline out of hth while my hq cleaned up his death company. I am saying this could happen from exp of which you guys from my understand dont see it because you lack the exp I have with running combat squads or just five men in a unit.

If you limit the return damage and are able to win via wounds then you hold the line correct?

If you limit the return but take more wounds then you dish out, and pass your leader ship then you hold the line again.

30 guys on one side and 30 guys on the other side of the marine unit. You then move up and fire on the left unit and then assault so that the return damage equals one of the two points up top. While the assault is in action you take one guy on your far right from your combat squad/five men and run him right into the other 30. Now that lone marine is going to get wacked with ease and the 30 will remove him but that is all they are going to get because of range and kill zone. Now back to the action on the left as your either going to win and or you going to lose so many marines.

I have to remind myself that when I say lose it means that I have limited that amount you can kill!!!!!! Please re-read this a few times if you need so that your sly commits can stay in the far reach of the back side of your head.

Now that I have either won combat and or made my leader ship test, I have held the line and thus pulled two units of 30 into combat for next turn. I could do another one ie idea if it would help you to better understand? If I had a scanner I could just draw it out for you so that you would understand. Atlas this is my final commit as its pointless to try and help somebody thats not willing or should I say sorta willing to see the light.


Just remember thought that Jonah of Arc was burned....

What I think you are missing Tarval is that the notion of a "kill zone" is pretty much gone in 5th ed. Those 60 orks can kill all 5 of your marines in one turn, even if you charge because just about all 60 of them will get to attack. That means 180 attacks, some of which are Powerklaw attacks.

So I think that your tactic works fine in 4th ed but will fail in 5th.

Now what you could do is position in such a way to allow the Orks to charge but only let them reach the first line of 5 guys, kill them and get stranded but that's not what you were originally advocating. This is what I am thinking about doing with my Dark Angels, using the Combat squads rule to sacrifice a few combat squads to allow the shootier bits behind to finish off whatever makes it to my line.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

HTH you can pull from any place in the combat but not shooting sir of which you fail to see.

I read the 5th ed rule book over the weekend. no kill zone for shooting either. So long as each shooter was in range and LOS to one model in target unit you have to pull a model for each unsaved wound.

Exactly, Ozy. This is what I've been trying to get Tarval to understand all along, that there's no such thing as "Now that lone marine is going to get wacked with ease and the 30 will remove him but that is all they are going to get because of range and kill zone."

Not mention arent they making it so being outnumbered by more then 4 to 1 grants an increase in your penalty to Ld. You try to lock up those 60 boys, enjoy losing and being outnumbered like 12 to 1 and making that 1 in 36 snake eyes roll. Those are odds I am willing to play against.